We're having a trouble with a friend on the formulation of rise of the tides."For each instant AND sorcery": does that mean for each pair of ( instant, sorcery ) in my graveyard ? or does that mean for any cards which is either an instant or a sorcery ?
Thanks a lot,
Ps: sorry, I'm not used to post and could not find the way to embed the link for the card... Feel free to edit the post.
Rise from the Tides. "Each instant and sorcery" means it counts both instants and sorceries. You get one token for each card of one of those types in your graveyard. There's no such thing as an "Instant Sorcery".
"Each Instant and sorcery card in your graveyard" means "Each card in your graveyard that is an Instant card or a Sorcery card." So just count the cards that have one or both* of those types and that's the number.
*Worth noting this other recent thread: Split Cards and it's types, regarding the new Aftermath cards. Under current rules, one of those cards is both an Instant card and a Sorcery card while it's not on the stack. We are expecting a rules clarification to be in the update, but the current understanding is that an effect that looks for "each instant and sorcery card" will count the card once.
While it's true that there are no cards with the type line "Instant Sorcery", there are split cards that have one half an instant and the other half a sorcery. In those cases, the card would be both an Instant and a Sorcery in the graveyard. However, as you stated, it's still one card, so it would still only count as one card towards the number of Zombies you get with Rise from the Tides.
When Rise from the Tides resolves, you count the number of "instant [and/or] sorcery card(s)" in your graveyard, then create that many Zombie tokens. Thus, if exactly three cards in your graveyard are "instant [and/or] sorcery card(s)", you create three Zombie tokens (not more and not less).
Unfortunately, "instant and sorcery card" is not an ideal wording (and the Oracle card reference didn't change this part of the spell's text from the original as printed in Shadows over Innistrad): a wording such as "instant and/or sorcery card" would clearly count a card that's both an instant and sorcery, such as Spring to Mind, only once, whereas a wording that involved the text "the number of instant cards plus the number of sorcery cards" would count the same card twice. (Compare Rise from the Tides with Spoils of War [C.R. 108.1], Ravaging Blaze, and War Report. See also Enigma Drake.) A similar issue exists for Withering Gaze ("each Forest and green card") and Baleful Stare ("each Mountain and red card").
You are not required to use token cards to represent tokens. Any small object will do, like dice, coins, unsleeved cards, sleeves without cards, glass beads, strips of paper, etc. The only requirement is, that the game state is and remains clear to all players. So, as long as all players agree that your representation of the tokens is sufficient, you can use anything. (Within reason, of course. Live kittens would not be a good choice, for example.)
We're having a trouble with a friend on the formulation of rise of the tides."For each instant AND sorcery": does that mean for each pair of ( instant, sorcery ) in my graveyard ? or does that mean for any cards which is either an instant or a sorcery ?
Thanks a lot,
Ps: sorry, I'm not used to post and could not find the way to embed the link for the card... Feel free to edit the post.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
*Worth noting this other recent thread: Split Cards and it's types, regarding the new Aftermath cards. Under current rules, one of those cards is both an Instant card and a Sorcery card while it's not on the stack. We are expecting a rules clarification to be in the update, but the current understanding is that an effect that looks for "each instant and sorcery card" will count the card once.
While it's true that there are no cards with the type line "Instant Sorcery", there are split cards that have one half an instant and the other half a sorcery. In those cases, the card would be both an Instant and a Sorcery in the graveyard. However, as you stated, it's still one card, so it would still only count as one card towards the number of Zombies you get with Rise from the Tides.
How many zombies can I get?
If the deck has 3 zombie token cards, can I get more than this?
Unfortunately, "instant and sorcery card" is not an ideal wording (and the Oracle card reference didn't change this part of the spell's text from the original as printed in Shadows over Innistrad): a wording such as "instant and/or sorcery card" would clearly count a card that's both an instant and sorcery, such as Spring to Mind, only once, whereas a wording that involved the text "the number of instant cards plus the number of sorcery cards" would count the same card twice. (Compare Rise from the Tides with Spoils of War [C.R. 108.1], Ravaging Blaze, and War Report. See also Enigma Drake.) A similar issue exists for Withering Gaze ("each Forest and green card") and Baleful Stare ("each Mountain and red card").
See also this thread.
EDIT (Jan. 19): Clarification.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)