I was playing tonight and something came up. I had a walking ballista with 4 counters, I decided to remove them all to kill a creature. The opponent then said, in response i deal 2 damage to the ballista and now, you can only remove two counters, deal two damage and it dies.
I'm not convinced that's how it works. My understanding is that the counter removal is part of the cost so impossible to interrupt, and the damage doesnt go on the stack so also impossible to interrupt.
Another way to interpret this maybe is to say that in response to my opponent casting a direct damage spell, i remove all the remaining counters to deal however damage i can deal. Im responding to the spell being cast so mine resolves before the spell.
Are we overcomplicating this? Can someone explain to me how this would resolves?
Hi, I'm not a judge so can't be sure, but I think you are correct. If you activated the ability, removing the counters is part of the cost so it can't be responded to untill the ability is on the stack. If they want to kill it or deal damage, you can still remove the counters to put the ability on the stack and thus kill it yourself. I think that's the way it works.
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Modern UWG Spirits
Standard UW Control RBU Midrange
Commander UBG Tasigur
Pauper GW Slivers
Both of you are wrong, but you are "more" correct.
You cannot activate Walking Ballista to deal 4 damage at once, but you can activate it 4 times in a row to deal 1 damage 4 times. This activated ability does use the stack and can be responded to, the damage is not dealt immediately. You can activate the Ballista in response to its own ability, or you can let one activation resolve before activating it again.
Since removing a counter from the Ballista is the cost, it happens as you activate the ability. It is gone by the time any player can respond. Your opponent cannot prevent you from removng all 4 counters to deal 4 damage. Either you remove them all by activating the ability again and again before giving priority to your opponenht, or you can simply respond to his activation(s) of Triskelion (which also only can shoot in increments of 1, just like the Ballista, since the ability is worded axactly the same).
Also, removing the source of an ability will not stop the ability on the stack from resolving.
So, it goes something like this:
- you activate Ballista by removing a counter and put the ability on the stack. Then you regain priority.
- you activate Ballista by removing a counter and put the ability on the stack. Then you regain priority.
- you activate Ballista by removing a counter and put the ability on the stack. Then you regain priority.
- you activate Ballista by removing a counter and put the ability on the stack. Then you regain priority.
- you pass priority
- your opponent responds by activating Triskelion. Then he regains priority.
- your opponent responds by activating Triskelion. Then he regains priority.
- your opponent passes priority.
- you pass priority.
- the top object on the stack resolves (Triskelions ability) and deals 1 damage.
- active player passes. nonactive player passes.
- the top object on the stack resolves (Triskelions ability) and deals 1 damage.
- active player passes. nonactive player passes.
- the top object on the stack resolves (Ballista's ability) and deals 1 damage.
- active player passes. nonactive player passes.
- the top object on the stack resolves (Ballista's ability) and deals 1 damage.
- active player passes. nonactive player passes.
- the top object on the stack resolves (Ballista's ability) and deals 1 damage.
- active player passes. nonactive player passes.
- the top object on the stack resolves (Ballista's ability) and deals 1 damage.
- stack is empty.
Haha, that triskelion vs walking ballista is rather convoluted!!
I didnt mean to say it was trisk vs walking ballista, more like walking ballista vs lightning bolt. I put up both cards because trisk is the precursor to walking ballista.
Also we are usually playing casual-drunk so we skip steps, i.e, remove 4 counters deal 4 damage in one step.
In any case i think it answers the question anyway. Basically, the opponent can answer but it's too late, ballista's ability is on the stack and will deal damage
Also, thanks for the detailed explanation, itll come in handy next time we play. I couldnt really believe that ballista fell to easy responses like that, especially since it's lauded as THE game changer in AER.
Also we are usually playing casual-drunk so we skip steps, i.e, remove 4 counters deal 4 damage in one step.
This is actually fine, in real-life gameplay, as long as you understand the underlying mechanics. Saying "I take off 4 counters and shoot (pick a target) for 4" is a proposed shortcut. You're saying that absent responses, you're going to activate the ability 4 times, while everyone passes priority so that those activations resolve. Your opponent can either accept the shortcut and the game will proceed to the point where the shortcut ends, or they can choose to make a different game decision (generally by virtue of having a response) at a specified point in the sequence. Just keep a couple of things in mind with the shortcut:
-You're still doing 1 damage 4 separate times, in case that's relevant.
-By default, a shortcut for activating an ability multiple times expects that you activate it once, let that resolve, activate it again, and so forth. Your opponent can choose to interrupt the sequence with a valid response, but they have to specify when (such as after the first time the ability has been activated, or right before the last activation resolves.)
-By proposing a shortcut you commit to taking the actions described in the shortcut unless an opponent interrupts it with a different action. If they do, you're still bound to anything that happens before that point. (For instance, if you try to ping a 4/4 to death and they respond with Giant Growth while the last activation is on the stack, you can't back out of any of the activations.)
Right, thats how we play and understand it as far as shortcuts go. It happens that shortcuts change decisions but we all realize that thats our own problem.
I think what we rarely (never) pay attention to, is priority. This seems to be the deciding factor in this case. When i activate the ballista, i have priority to respond to the activation, so i can activate it again. Once all 4 activations are done, i pass priority but at that point all 4 activations are on the atack.
Both of you are wrong, but you are "more" correct.
You cannot activate Walking Ballista to deal 4 damage at once, but you can activate it 4 times in a row to deal 1 damage 4 times. This activated ability does use the stack and can be responded to, the damage is not dealt immediately. You can activate the Ballista in response to its own ability, or you can let one activation resolve before activating it again.
Since removing a counter from the Ballista is the cost, it happens as you activate the ability. It is gone by the time any player can respond. Your opponent cannot prevent you from removng all 4 counters to deal 4 damage. Either you remove them all by activating the ability again and again before giving priority to your opponenht, or you can simply respond to his activation(s) of Triskelion (which also only can shoot in increments of 1, just like the Ballista, since the ability is worded axactly the same).
Also, removing the source of an ability will not stop the ability on the stack from resolving.
So, it goes something like this:
- you activate Ballista by removing a counter and put the ability on the stack. Then you regain priority.
- you activate Ballista by removing a counter and put the ability on the stack. Then you regain priority.
- you activate Ballista by removing a counter and put the ability on the stack. Then you regain priority.
- you activate Ballista by removing a counter and put the ability on the stack. Then you regain priority.
- you pass priority
- your opponent responds by activating Triskelion. Then he regains priority.
- your opponent responds by activating Triskelion. Then he regains priority.
- your opponent passes priority.
- you pass priority.
- the top object on the stack resolves (Triskelions ability) and deals 1 damage.
- active player passes. nonactive player passes.
- the top object on the stack resolves (Triskelions ability) and deals 1 damage.
- active player passes. nonactive player passes.
- the top object on the stack resolves (Ballista's ability) and deals 1 damage.
- active player passes. nonactive player passes.
- the top object on the stack resolves (Ballista's ability) and deals 1 damage.
- active player passes. nonactive player passes.
- the top object on the stack resolves (Ballista's ability) and deals 1 damage.
- active player passes. nonactive player passes.
- the top object on the stack resolves (Ballista's ability) and deals 1 damage.
- stack is empty.
Wait... rule 704.5f does not apply here? Ballista has no more counters by the time AP passes. Triskelion has no target, assuming no other target is on the battle field. Ballista is 0/0 and state based actions should already be checked by the time control is passed.
Not sure I understand what you're saying here. Do you mean that since counters are removed as part of the cost, the ballista dies before anything else?
In that case, it would mean that you can't prevent a Ballista draling damage by killing it with an instant?
Not sure I understand what you're saying here. Do you mean that since counters are removed as part of the cost, the ballista dies before anything else?
That's correct. As soon as its controller is done activating its ability by removing its last counter, state-based actions send the Ballista to the graveyard because it's 0/0, before anyone gets priority (the opportunity to cast or activate something).
In that case, it would mean that you can't prevent a Ballista draling damage by killing it with an instant?
That's also correct, and importantly, it would be correct even if the Ballista didn't die before you can respond. Once activated or triggered, an ability is independent from its source. Removal of the source in response to the ability won't prevent it from resolving. For example, if your opponent has Prodigal Pyromancer untapped and not summoning sick, you can't use a kill spell (barring things like split second) to stop it from dealing 1 damage to you. If they activate it while they have priority, you can only kill it with an instant once the ability is done being activated and is an independent object on the stack, and it still resolves even if the Pyromancer is not there. And if you target the Pyromancer while it is untapped, they can activate it in response.
112.7a. Once activated or triggered, an ability exists on the stack independently of its source. Destruction or removal of the source after that time won't affect the ability. Note that some abilities cause a source to do something (for example, "Prodigal Pyromancer deals 1 damage to target creature or player") rather than the ability doing anything directly. In these cases, any activated or triggered ability that references information about the source because the effect needs to be divided checks that information when the ability is put onto the stack. Otherwise, it will check that information when it resolves. In both instances, if the source is no longer in the zone it's expected to be in at that time, its last known information is used. The source can still perform the action even though it no longer exists.
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I'm a former judge (lapsed), who keeps up to date on rules and policy. Keep in mind that judges' answers aren't necessarily more valid than those of people who aren't judges; what matters is we can quote the rules to back up our answers. When in doubt, ask for such quotes.
There you go, 112.7a seems to be the rule I was looking for! I'll use this to explain next time it happens.
Same thing would happen with say... a master transmuter right? You remove an artifact as part of the cost, put the ability on the stack, opponent responds by bolting the transmuter, transmuter dies, transmuter ability resolves?
Let's add another layer. Activate transmuter, return other artifact, opponent bolts transmuter. In response untap transmuter with elixir, activate transmuter and return it to hand, put down two artifacts from hand.
Im specifically asking about the transmuter because it's been the source of many arguments.
There you go, 112.7a seems to be the rule I was looking for! I'll use this to explain next time it happens.
Same thing would happen with say... a master transmuter right? You remove an artifact as part of the cost, put the ability on the stack, opponent responds by bolting the transmuter, transmuter dies, transmuter ability resolves?
Sure. Technically you put the ability on the stack then pay its cost (including returning the artifact), but those two steps are all part of the activation process and can't be interrupted. The ability on the stack will resolve even with the Transmuter gone.
Let's add another layer. Activate transmuter, return other artifact, opponent bolts transmuter. In response untap transmuter with elixir, activate transmuter and return it to hand, put down two artifacts from hand.
After reading your explanation, Im still a bit in doubt, so could you please help with this:
I have 3 savannah lions on the table. My opponent has 1 Triskelion. I attack with the the 3 lions and he responds to it by activating his trike 1 time to deal 1 damage to one of the lions. I then respond with a lightning bolt on the trike. He then responds with activating his trike two times and deal 1 damage to each of the other two lions.
The first two lions die, then the bolt kills the trike. But how about the last trike acivation on the stack? Will the last lion then be saved?
I have seen a lot of players do this, but Im not really sure I understand how it works.
Edit, the image shown for lightning bolt is in some asian language, and Im not sure how to change it
After reading your explanation, Im still a bit in doubt, so could you please help with this:
I have 3 savannah lions on the table. My opponent has 1 Triskelion. I attack with the the 3 lions and he responds to it by activating his trike 1 time to deal 1 damage to one of the lions. I then respond with a lightning bolt on the trike. He then responds with activating his trike two times and deal 1 damage to each of the other two lions.
The sequence would be like this:
Your combat phase begins. Your beginning of combat step begins.
You get priority and pass.
Opponent gets priority and passes.
Beginning of combat step ends.
Declare attackers step begins. You declare your three Savannah Lions as attackers and tap them.
You get priority and pass.
Opponent gets priority and activates the "Remove a +1/+1 counter from Triskelion: It deals 1 damage to any target." ability of his Triskelion. He chooses one of your Savannah Lions as the target and pays the cost by removing a +1/+1 counter.
Opponent gets priority and passes.
You get priority and cast Lightning Bolt. You choose opponent's Triskelion as the target and pay the cost using R obtained in an unspecified way.
You get priority and pass.
Opponent gets priority and activates the "Remove a +1/+1 counter from Triskelion: It deals 1 damage to any target." ability of his Triskelion. He chooses a second Savannah Lion as the target and pays the cost by removing a +1/+1 counter.
Opponent gets priority and activates the "Remove a +1/+1 counter from Triskelion: It deals 1 damage to any target." ability of his Triskelion. He chooses the third Savannah Lion as the target and pays the cost by removing a +1/+1 counter.
Opponent gets priority and passes.
You get priority and pass.
The top object on the stack (the ability activated in step 12) resolves. Triskelion deals 1 damage to the third Savannah Lion.
You would get priority, but there is a state-based action to process. The third Savannah Lion has lethal damage and is destroyed.
You get priority and pass.
Opponent gets priority and passes.
The top object on the stack (the ability activated in step 11) resolves. Triskelion deals 1 damage to the second Savannah Lion.
You would get priority, but there is a state-based action to process. The second Savannah Lion has lethal damage and is destroyed.
You get priority and pass.
Opponent gets priority and passes.
The top object on the stack (the spell cast n step 9) resolves. Lightning Bolt deals three damage to Triskelion and is put in your graveyard.
You would get priority, but there is a state-based action to process. Triskelion has lethal damage and is destroyed.
You get priority and pass.
Opponent gets priority and passes.
The top object on the stack (the ability activated in step 7) resolves. Triskelion (as it was in step 24) deals 1 damage to the first Savannah Lion.
You would get priority, but there is a state-based action to process. The first Savannah Lion has lethal damage and is destroyed.
You get priority and pass.
Opponent gets priority and passes.
Declare attackers step ends. The rest of the combat phase will proceed, but there are no longer any attacking creatures.
The ability on the stack will resolve even with the Triskelion gone.
113.7a Once activated or triggered, an ability exists on the stack independently of its source. Destruction or removal of the source after that time won’t affect the ability. Note that some abilities cause a source to do something (for example, “Prodigal Pyromancer deals 1 damage to any target”) rather than the ability doing anything directly. In these cases, any activated or triggered ability that references information about the source for use while announcing an activated ability or putting a triggered ability on the stack checks that information when the ability is put onto the stack. Otherwise, it will check that information when it resolves. In both instances, if the source is no longer in the zone it’s expected to be in at that time, its last known information is used. The source can still perform the action even though it no longer exists.
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Why bother with mere rulings when so many answers can be found in the Rules?
Walking Ballista
I was playing tonight and something came up. I had a walking ballista with 4 counters, I decided to remove them all to kill a creature. The opponent then said, in response i deal 2 damage to the ballista and now, you can only remove two counters, deal two damage and it dies.
I'm not convinced that's how it works. My understanding is that the counter removal is part of the cost so impossible to interrupt, and the damage doesnt go on the stack so also impossible to interrupt.
Another way to interpret this maybe is to say that in response to my opponent casting a direct damage spell, i remove all the remaining counters to deal however damage i can deal. Im responding to the spell being cast so mine resolves before the spell.
Are we overcomplicating this? Can someone explain to me how this would resolves?
Thanks.
WUGFlicker Control (WIP)
UWG Spirits
Standard
UW Control
RBU Midrange
Commander
UBG Tasigur
Pauper
GW Slivers
You cannot activate Walking Ballista to deal 4 damage at once, but you can activate it 4 times in a row to deal 1 damage 4 times. This activated ability does use the stack and can be responded to, the damage is not dealt immediately. You can activate the Ballista in response to its own ability, or you can let one activation resolve before activating it again.
Since removing a counter from the Ballista is the cost, it happens as you activate the ability. It is gone by the time any player can respond. Your opponent cannot prevent you from removng all 4 counters to deal 4 damage. Either you remove them all by activating the ability again and again before giving priority to your opponenht, or you can simply respond to his activation(s) of Triskelion (which also only can shoot in increments of 1, just like the Ballista, since the ability is worded axactly the same).
Also, removing the source of an ability will not stop the ability on the stack from resolving.
So, it goes something like this:
- you activate Ballista by removing a counter and put the ability on the stack. Then you regain priority.
- you activate Ballista by removing a counter and put the ability on the stack. Then you regain priority.
- you activate Ballista by removing a counter and put the ability on the stack. Then you regain priority.
- you activate Ballista by removing a counter and put the ability on the stack. Then you regain priority.
- you pass priority
- your opponent responds by activating Triskelion. Then he regains priority.
- your opponent responds by activating Triskelion. Then he regains priority.
- your opponent passes priority.
- you pass priority.
- the top object on the stack resolves (Triskelions ability) and deals 1 damage.
- active player passes. nonactive player passes.
- the top object on the stack resolves (Triskelions ability) and deals 1 damage.
- active player passes. nonactive player passes.
- the top object on the stack resolves (Ballista's ability) and deals 1 damage.
- active player passes. nonactive player passes.
- the top object on the stack resolves (Ballista's ability) and deals 1 damage.
- active player passes. nonactive player passes.
- the top object on the stack resolves (Ballista's ability) and deals 1 damage.
- active player passes. nonactive player passes.
- the top object on the stack resolves (Ballista's ability) and deals 1 damage.
- stack is empty.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
I didnt mean to say it was trisk vs walking ballista, more like walking ballista vs lightning bolt. I put up both cards because trisk is the precursor to walking ballista.
Also we are usually playing casual-drunk so we skip steps, i.e, remove 4 counters deal 4 damage in one step.
In any case i think it answers the question anyway. Basically, the opponent can answer but it's too late, ballista's ability is on the stack and will deal damage
WUGFlicker Control (WIP)
WUGFlicker Control (WIP)
-You're still doing 1 damage 4 separate times, in case that's relevant.
-By default, a shortcut for activating an ability multiple times expects that you activate it once, let that resolve, activate it again, and so forth. Your opponent can choose to interrupt the sequence with a valid response, but they have to specify when (such as after the first time the ability has been activated, or right before the last activation resolves.)
-By proposing a shortcut you commit to taking the actions described in the shortcut unless an opponent interrupts it with a different action. If they do, you're still bound to anything that happens before that point. (For instance, if you try to ping a 4/4 to death and they respond with Giant Growth while the last activation is on the stack, you can't back out of any of the activations.)
I think what we rarely (never) pay attention to, is priority. This seems to be the deciding factor in this case. When i activate the ballista, i have priority to respond to the activation, so i can activate it again. Once all 4 activations are done, i pass priority but at that point all 4 activations are on the atack.
WUGFlicker Control (WIP)
Wait... rule 704.5f does not apply here? Ballista has no more counters by the time AP passes. Triskelion has no target, assuming no other target is on the battle field. Ballista is 0/0 and state based actions should already be checked by the time control is passed.
In that case, it would mean that you can't prevent a Ballista draling damage by killing it with an instant?
WUGFlicker Control (WIP)
Same thing would happen with say... a master transmuter right? You remove an artifact as part of the cost, put the ability on the stack, opponent responds by bolting the transmuter, transmuter dies, transmuter ability resolves?
Let's add another layer. Activate transmuter, return other artifact, opponent bolts transmuter. In response untap transmuter with elixir, activate transmuter and return it to hand, put down two artifacts from hand.
Im specifically asking about the transmuter because it's been the source of many arguments.
WUGFlicker Control (WIP)
Sure. Technically you put the ability on the stack then pay its cost (including returning the artifact), but those two steps are all part of the activation process and can't be interrupted. The ability on the stack will resolve even with the Transmuter gone.
A valid play, yes.
WUGFlicker Control (WIP)
I have 3 savannah lions on the table. My opponent has 1 Triskelion. I attack with the the 3 lions and he responds to it by activating his trike 1 time to deal 1 damage to one of the lions. I then respond with a lightning bolt on the trike. He then responds with activating his trike two times and deal 1 damage to each of the other two lions.
The first two lions die, then the bolt kills the trike. But how about the last trike acivation on the stack? Will the last lion then be saved?
I have seen a lot of players do this, but Im not really sure I understand how it works.
Edit, the image shown for lightning bolt is in some asian language, and Im not sure how to change it
The sequence would be like this:
The ability on the stack will resolve even with the Triskelion gone.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)