Player B in response puts a Force Of Will on the stack, then puts it back to hand before paying a life and removing a blue card from the game.
How would this carry on?
And a side note, player B had been casting their Force Of Wills like this the entire gaming (putting it into play, then exiling a blue card, then paying 1 life).
According to an official ruling, which applies above all (if not only) to sanctioned tournaments, if a player taps Cavern of Souls for mana while casting a creature spell of the chosen type, it is assumed that he or she is activating its second mana ability by default, so Lord of Atlantis can't be countered. (Note that this differs from other situations in which a player could be activating one of multiple mana abilities of a single permanent if he or she taps it for mana while casting a particular spell [an example is Eldrazi Temple]: normally, a player must declare which mana ability he or she is activating in case of ambiguity [C.R. 602.2a].)
Paying Force of Will's alternative cost indicates an attempt to cast Force of Will; it can still target Lord of Atlantis even though it can't be countered (Force of Will requires only a "target spell" [C.R. 115.1a]), so the action is not illegal and can't be reversed (C.R. 725.1), and the Force of Will card remains on the stack. In general, after paying a spell's cost legally, the spell is considered cast (C.R. 601.2i). On the other hand, keeping the Force of Will card in hand after paying Force of Will's alternative cost (and casting it as a result), rather than leaving it on the stack, would be an illegal action.
EDIT (May 2, 2018): One rule was renumbered with Dominaria.
EDIT (Dec. 22, 2021): Some rules were renumbered in the meantime.
This is not a situation that a definitive answer can be given as in a sanctioned tournament it is something a judge needs to investigate before continuing.
In your original post it appears that the opposing player has just chosen to reveal his Force of will and then put it back in his hand as he has not mentioned any targets or made any attempt to pay the costs of the spell. Note unlike in chess there is no obligation to continue with an action once you have started it, for example if you realise that it is not in your best interests to play that spell or the action is illegal.
For the second part of your question yes how your opponent has been playing during your match will be part of what the judge will be asking both players about when he investigates the situation.
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- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
When casting Force Of Will, does it make a difference in the order it's casted? For example:
1) Putting on the stack, exiling a blue card, paying 1 life.
2) Exiling a blue card, paying 1 life, putting on the stack.
And what happens when an opponent makes an illegal move like this, refusing to put the force in their graveyard, exile a blue card, and lose a life?
In sanctioned tournaments above all, it generally doesn't matter what order a player takes to cast a spell as long as the end result would have been legal if done in the correct order. Indeed, even though—
while paying for Force of Will you can pay 1 life before you exile a blue card, or vice versa (C.R. 601.2h), and
strictly speaking, putting a spell card on the stack must be done before paying its costs (C.R. 601.2, 601.2a, 601.2h),
the Force of Will spell would still be cast in any other order since all its costs were paid, at least where nothing in the game cares about the order (C.R. 601.2i).
Example 2 would be considered "out-of-order sequencing" under the Magic: The Gathering Tournament Rules (M.T.R. 4.3), and is unproblematic here. However, in general, once a legally cast spell resolves, it must be put into the graveyard and not back to its owner's hand (C.R. 608.2m).
EDIT (Jul. 22, 2021): Edited to conform to rule update with Adventures in the Forgotten Realms, and because one rule was renumbered in the meantime.
EDIT (Dec. 22, 2021): Edited to conform to rule update with Innistrad: Midnight Hunt.
This is not a situation that a definitive answer can be given as in a sanctioned tournament it is something a judge needs to investigate before continuing.
Yeah, explains why both players couldn't come to an agreement, just trying to get a better understanding of the situation.
In your original post it appears that the opposing player has just chosen to reveal his Force of will and then put it back in his hand as he has not mentioned any targets or made any attempt to pay the costs of the spell.
Would there be a difference between revealing and putting it on the stack here...
Especially since they how he started off playing all of his Force Of Wills?
When casting Force Of Will, does it make a difference in the order it's casted? For example:
1) Putting on the stack, exiling a blue card, paying 1 life.
2) Exiling a blue card, paying 1 life, putting on the stack.
And what happens when an opponent makes an illegal move like this, refusing to put the force in their graveyard, exile a blue card, and lose a life?
In sanctioned tournaments above all, it generally doesn't matter what order a player takes to cast a spell as long as the end result would have been legal if done in the correct order (exiling a blue card and paying 1 life for Force of Will can be done in any order [C.R. 601.2h], and strictly speaking, putting a spell card on the stack must be done before paying its costs [C.R. 601.2, 601.2a, 601.2h], but even in the other order, the spell would still be cast since all its costs were paid [C.R. 601.2i]).
In this example though, he put Force Of Will on the stack, then never paid the life or exiled the card (because he took it off the stack, then back to his hand).
So the end result would have been legal, had he continued it.
It seems like he can do that based upon what Kahedron stated above?
"Note unlike in chess there is no obligation to continue with an action once you have started it".
With that being said, where would the line be drawn between taking an action and making it an official move?
It seems like he can do that based upon what Kahedron stated above?
"Note unlike in chess there is no obligation to continue with an action once you have started it".
With that being said, where would the line be drawn between taking an action and making it an official move?
Sorry, I misunderstood your question in comment 1 (I misread "after paying a life..." rather than "before paying a life..."). In general, if a player has done an illegal action (for example, proposing an illegal shortcut or choosing an illegal target for a spell while casting it), the action is reversed (C.R. 725.1). In general, however, if the actions are not illegal, they are not reversed and the player must continue with the actions. If the player, though, is merely revealing the Force of Will card from his or her hand without putting it on the stack, that's not considered proposing to cast the spell (within the meaning of C.R. 601.2). (However, I am aware of an official ruling in which a player can say "not final" while declaring attackers to indicate that he or she is still deciding which creatures to attack with; this doesn't mean, however, that the player can go back to the beginning of combat step and get priority before redeclaring attackers.)
In a sanctioned tournament, a player is "not usually allowed to take back an action that has been communicated to their opponent, either verbally or physically" (M.T.R. 4.8). An exception is if a judge decides with certainty that a player "has not gained any information since taking [an unintended] action" and decides to "allow that player to change their mind" (M.T.R. 4.8).
EDIT (May 2, 2018): One rule was renumbered with Dominaria.
EDIT (Sep. 25, 2018): Correctness edit.
EDIT (Oct. 1, 2018): Edited to conform to a new M.T.R. section added with Guilds of Ravnica.
EDIT (Oct. 2, 2018; Oct. 3, 2018): Edited.
EDIT (Dec. 22, 2021): One rule was renumbered in the meantime.
This is not a situation that a definitive answer can be given as in a sanctioned tournament it is something a judge needs to investigate before continuing.
There is absolutely a definitive answer, the judge is going to ask a simple question, did player B pay for the spell? In the situation described, Force of Will has not been successfully cast. To cast a spell you have to announce it, select targets/modes and pay costs.
Player B has said, I'll cast Force on Lord of Atlantis, revealed the force... and then decides to take it back. They will be able to do so because it is not clear that player B is capable of casting the spell, they could say they don't have a blue card to pitch for example. This is also not a GPE - Game rule violation, because the player fixed the error before the affected the game.
Overall, the spell is not cast until all steps have been completed, so until player B has completely finished casting the spell, they have the ability to change their mind.
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Player B in response puts a Force Of Will on the stack, then puts it back to hand before paying a life and removing a blue card from the game.
How would this carry on?
And a side note, player B had been casting their Force Of Wills like this the entire gaming (putting it into play, then exiling a blue card, then paying 1 life).
Paying Force of Will's alternative cost indicates an attempt to cast Force of Will; it can still target Lord of Atlantis even though it can't be countered (Force of Will requires only a "target spell" [C.R. 115.1a]), so the action is not illegal and can't be reversed (C.R. 725.1), and the Force of Will card remains on the stack. In general, after paying a spell's cost legally, the spell is considered cast (C.R. 601.2i). On the other hand, keeping the Force of Will card in hand after paying Force of Will's alternative cost (and casting it as a result), rather than leaving it on the stack, would be an illegal action.
EDIT (May 2, 2018): One rule was renumbered with Dominaria.
EDIT (Dec. 22, 2021): Some rules were renumbered in the meantime.
A couple things.
When casting Force Of Will, does it make a difference in the order it's casted? For example:
1) Putting on the stack, exiling a blue card, paying 1 life.
2) Exiling a blue card, paying 1 life, putting on the stack.
And what happens when an opponent makes an illegal move like this, refusing to put the force in their graveyard, exile a blue card, and lose a life?
While this wasn't a tournament play, I always try and play by the rules and takeback situations like this come up very often.
In your original post it appears that the opposing player has just chosen to reveal his Force of will and then put it back in his hand as he has not mentioned any targets or made any attempt to pay the costs of the spell. Note unlike in chess there is no obligation to continue with an action once you have started it, for example if you realise that it is not in your best interests to play that spell or the action is illegal.
For the second part of your question yes how your opponent has been playing during your match will be part of what the judge will be asking both players about when he investigates the situation.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The Crafters' Rules Guru
In sanctioned tournaments above all, it generally doesn't matter what order a player takes to cast a spell as long as the end result would have been legal if done in the correct order. Indeed, even though—
Example 2 would be considered "out-of-order sequencing" under the Magic: The Gathering Tournament Rules (M.T.R. 4.3), and is unproblematic here. However, in general, once a legally cast spell resolves, it must be put into the graveyard and not back to its owner's hand (C.R. 608.2m).
EDIT (Jul. 22, 2021): Edited to conform to rule update with Adventures in the Forgotten Realms, and because one rule was renumbered in the meantime.
EDIT (Dec. 22, 2021): Edited to conform to rule update with Innistrad: Midnight Hunt.
Would there be a difference between revealing and putting it on the stack here...
Especially since they how he started off playing all of his Force Of Wills?
This was also online.
So if a Force Of Will is played after Lord Of Atlantis, based upon how the rest of the game was played, that would tend to imply it was targeting Lord Of Atlantis?
In this example though, he put Force Of Will on the stack, then never paid the life or exiled the card (because he took it off the stack, then back to his hand).
So the end result would have been legal, had he continued it.
It seems like he can do that based upon what Kahedron stated above?
"Note unlike in chess there is no obligation to continue with an action once you have started it".
With that being said, where would the line be drawn between taking an action and making it an official move?
Sorry, I misunderstood your question in comment 1 (I misread "after paying a life..." rather than "before paying a life..."). In general, if a player has done an illegal action (for example, proposing an illegal shortcut or choosing an illegal target for a spell while casting it), the action is reversed (C.R. 725.1). In general, however, if the actions are not illegal, they are not reversed and the player must continue with the actions. If the player, though, is merely revealing the Force of Will card from his or her hand without putting it on the stack, that's not considered proposing to cast the spell (within the meaning of C.R. 601.2). (However, I am aware of an official ruling in which a player can say "not final" while declaring attackers to indicate that he or she is still deciding which creatures to attack with; this doesn't mean, however, that the player can go back to the beginning of combat step and get priority before redeclaring attackers.)
In a sanctioned tournament, a player is "not usually allowed to take back an action that has been communicated to their opponent, either verbally or physically" (M.T.R. 4.8). An exception is if a judge decides with certainty that a player "has not gained any information since taking [an unintended] action" and decides to "allow that player to change their mind" (M.T.R. 4.8).
EDIT (May 2, 2018): One rule was renumbered with Dominaria.
EDIT (Sep. 25, 2018): Correctness edit.
EDIT (Oct. 1, 2018): Edited to conform to a new M.T.R. section added with Guilds of Ravnica.
EDIT (Oct. 2, 2018; Oct. 3, 2018): Edited.
EDIT (Dec. 22, 2021): One rule was renumbered in the meantime.
There is absolutely a definitive answer, the judge is going to ask a simple question, did player B pay for the spell? In the situation described, Force of Will has not been successfully cast. To cast a spell you have to announce it, select targets/modes and pay costs.
Player B has said, I'll cast Force on Lord of Atlantis, revealed the force... and then decides to take it back. They will be able to do so because it is not clear that player B is capable of casting the spell, they could say they don't have a blue card to pitch for example. This is also not a GPE - Game rule violation, because the player fixed the error before the affected the game.
Overall, the spell is not cast until all steps have been completed, so until player B has completely finished casting the spell, they have the ability to change their mind.