Since I only play EDH/casual the reserve list doesn't really affect me much; however, I would like to see reprints only so I don't have to use a proxy.
I would love to see another boxed set with all 10 dual lands, new border, new artwork, and foiled, obviously banned in sanctioned tournaments. This collection of lands would be bought so fast by casual EDH'ers WotC would be hard-pressed to keep up with demand. In addition, most EDH'ers would also sell off their original duals as they have no need for them. Most die-hard EDH'ers foil their decks so having these lands would be priority over the others, as even a beta Bayou is an eye sore in a Savra deck
Wizards doesn't make any money off the single's market and even if they charged $100.00 a set, I would think most people would drop 4 bills for a playset.
What would happen to the value of The Power 9 and Duals if they were all banned from Legacy and Vintage? The other cards would be unaffected. The reserve list would still be in effect as dictated by the unwritten promise by Wizards but you would never be able to play with them outside of KTM (Kitchen Table Magic).
Since I only play EDH/casual the reserve list doesn't really affect me much; however, I would like to see reprints only so I don't have to use a proxy.
I would love to see another boxed set with all 10 dual lands, new border, new artwork, and foiled, obviously banned in sanctioned tournaments. This collection of lands would be bought so fast by casual EDH'ers WotC would be hard-pressed to keep up with demand. In addition, most EDH'ers would also sell off their original duals as they have no need for them. Most die-hard EDH'ers foil their decks so having these lands would be priority over the others, as even a beta Bayou is an eye sore in a Savra deck
Wizards doesn't make any money off the single's market and even if they charged $100.00 a set, I would think most people would drop 4 bills for a playset.
What would happen to the value of The Power 9 and Duals if they were all banned from Legacy and Vintage? The other cards would be unaffected. The reserve list would still be in effect as dictated by the unwritten promise by Wizards but you would never be able to play with them outside of KTM (Kitchen Table Magic).
It's selfish to vote yes or no. You want them to be reprinted so YOU dont have to spend money on cards. You dont want them to reprint cards so YOUR cards retain their value.
Anyone who's insisting otherwise is probably kidding themselves. Sure you can have other reasons, but the main reason for most is pretty assuredly "I come first".
I really don't care either way. I have the cards to play pretty much every deck in every format. Would I like to see more players at Legacy Opens and GPs? Of course. I would loooove to be able to play Legacy regularly on the PT. I also think a lot of greatly overvalue their own skill, and like to believe that owning more cards would increase their win percentage by some absurd amount, as if it's the only factor keeping them from winning multiple pro tours. It might be a good reality check for a lot of players, which may or may not be a good thing.
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Standard:
Bident Layers B Devotion RG Devotion UW Control Modern:
Jund
UW Control
Combo Pod Legacy: DeathBlade RUG Delver BUG Control
I really think they should have kept the premium loophole after FTV Relics was released (because they closed it after that), but some people *****ed about it and now they can't be reprinted at all.
It's selfish to vote yes or no. You want them to be reprinted so YOU dont have to spend money on cards. You dont want them to reprint cards so YOUR cards retain their value.
Anyone who's insisting otherwise is probably kidding themselves. Sure you can have other reasons, but the main reason for most is pretty assuredly "I come first".
Those aren't the only motivators for keeping or removing the list.
I own literally every card on the list but one, most of them in copious multiples but I still wish for the abolition of the list. I want the older eternal formats to be more accessible to other people. I would also like to see several of them reprinted because I think that they would be interesting in the modern environment and for nostalgia's sake.
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The Collection:
Every English card ever printed: 99.02%
Arabian Nights through Lorwyn: Complete
Alpha: 94.2% Beta: 95.0%
Unlimited through M10: Complete
Those aren't the only motivators for keeping or removing the list.
I own literally every card on the list but one, most of them in copious multiples but I still wish for the abolition of the list. I want the older eternal formats to be more accessible to other people. I would also like to see several of them reprinted because I think that they would be interesting in the modern environment and for nostalgia's sake.
+1. I don't have every card on the list but I have most of them and multiples of a lot. I'd stand to lose a lot of money if they got reprinted but I'd still like to see it happen. The way I look at it is these are just pieces to a game and you need the pieces to play. Imagine if monopoly only came with half the pieces you need and you had to buy extra boxes of stuff in the hopes that you get the one you're after. That would suck. Personally I think entire sets should be sold at a reasonable price for constructed play (maybe even have the ability to buy singles directly from wizards for the same price on every card) and have packs still being put out for used in limited. People would still buy up cards like crazy so to me it seems like a win-win scenario for wizards.
I own next to none of the cards on the Reserved List at present (although I have owned many in the past and will likely own many again in the future), and yet I still find something appealing about the list. For me, there's something intriguing about acquiring older, harder-to-get-your-hands-on cards. For example, I found shock lands to be a much more intriguing card before they got reprented en masse. I'd probably actually have less, not more, interest in playing Legacy if cards on the Reserved List got reprinted. Then again, I'm probably just weird.
The value of Alpha/Beta will more than likely never drop. They are the first runs, and will always be collected. As for the rest of the list; unless the market gets flooded with reprints the values can only go up. The player base will expand to and drive up the value of the reprints, and the originals will continue climb as die hards will want the originals to show "pimpage" in thier decks.
Starcitygames.com has the Commander's Arsenal reprinted version @ $50. The original Portal print run is still priced as high as its ever been. In fact, the Portal version remains a whole $100 more than the Commander reprint. Same thing applys to a lot of the cards from Legends that were reprinted in Chronicles (Rubinia Soulsinger, Chromium ) as well as Alpha/Beta cards reprinted in revised that remain staples today.
Of course, this doesn't mean that reprint runs won't make some cards go down, but in large part there will always be the "pimp" factor. To add to that, it hardly makes sense for anyone to get angry over their $5 card in 1994 going from $190 to $155 in 2013.
The "pimp" factor generally applies to all collectibles. You wouldn't have to empty your bank account to purchase a replica 1896 Morgan Dollar. Even at 99.999% fine silver the coin is only worth $35 at spot value. An original 1896 Morgan dollar actually contains less silver than the replicas do (90%), but ones that are in near mint condition can fetch anywhere between $100,000-$150,000.
I'm more surprised that WOTC's stockholders let them keep the list. Well, most likely the reason for that is that they are not aware of the situation.
No, that's why. They don't want to admit it, but a lot of people invested in WOTC to maintain the value of their collections and they won't let them do it.
It can't be abolished because WOTC's stockholders won't let them.
WoTC doesn't have stockholders. They are subsidiary of Hasbro. And Hasbro's stock price has nothing to do with the reserve list or not
No, that's why. They don't want to admit it, but a lot of people invested in WOTC to maintain the value of their collections and they won't let them do it.
Those people have zero sway over the decision
The "secret cabal of collectors" is a complete myth. There is no evidence to back it up whatsoever. There is no evidence to support the reserve listing being driven by card value, collection value, or for any legal reasons.
The only think that makes sense is that abolishing the Reserve List would not be in WoTC's best interests, which is why they don't do it. Some possibilities as to why it would not be in their best interests are player backlash for breaking a promise, or (the one I subscribe to), promoting Legacy play would cannibalize Standard, which is not what they want to do.
Abolishing the reserve list would ultimately have one large effect on the game: More people would stop playing Standard and start playing Legacy/Vintage. That's not in WoTC's best interests. Even if they made Legacy Masters the biggest print run ever and sold them for $25 a pack, long term, they are shooting themselves in the foot by pushing Standard players in Legacy.
Players want the RL list gone because it benefits them. WoTC wants the RL around because it benefits WoTC. And we all know who wins that fight.
Seriously I can't even believe that 43 people answered with No. I mean is this forum so full of hoarders/speculators or people with no insight on the topic?
Never doubt the level of contrianism in the MTG player base. It is epic.
The only think that makes sense is that abolishing the Reserve List would not be in WoTC's best interests, which is why they don't do it. Some possibilities as to why it would not be in their best interests are player backlash for breaking a promise, or (the one I subscribe to), promoting Legacy play would cannibalize Standard, which is not what they want to do.
Abolishing the reserve list would ultimately have one large effect on the game: More people would stop playing Standard and start playing Legacy/Vintage. That's not in WoTC's best interests. Even if they made Legacy Masters the biggest print run ever and sold them for $25 a pack, long term, they are shooting themselves in the foot by pushing Standard players in Legacy.
Counterpoint: Modern.
It's essentially Legacy - Lite Edition, and in the long term, would suffer from all the problems you are associating with Legacy. I don't think removing the reserved list would hurt WotC's interest in standard, especially since most Legacy players I've met are very seriously into the game and also play Standard (yes, in addition to Legacy).
Honestly, I think you're seriously underestimating the power of the status quo. There doesn't have to be a flawless, completely rational reason for keeping the reserved list. We have the reserved list because we've had the reserved list for a long time and ideas have inertia. The state things are in is safe and comfortable, and WotC doesn't even have to consider, let alone deal with, any unknowns that could possibly pop up from removing the reserved list (no matter how unlikely or minor). Seriously, Status Quo Bias is extremely well documented (yes, even in legitimate peer-reviewed academic articles).
It's going to take an extremely long period of most people being wholeheartedly in favor of removing it before WotC even considers getting rid of it.
It's essentially Legacy - Lite Edition, and in the long term, would suffer from all the problems you are associating with Legacy. I don't think removing the reserved list would hurt WotC's interest in standard, especially since most Legacy players I've met are very seriously into the game and also play Standard (yes, in addition to Legacy)
Modern is absolute NOT Legacy lite, and it was NEVER meant to be. Modern is fed as a format from Standard, and Standard cards are MUCH more relevant in Modern than Legacy, driving Standard sales.
And Modern was a compromise. They know they can't have NO eternal format supported, that would alienate players. So they made a format as close to Standard as they could.
Honestly, I think you're seriously underestimating the power of the status quo. There doesn't have to be a flawless, completely rational reason for keeping the reserved list. We have the reserved list because we've had the reserved list for a long time and ideas have inertia. The state things are in is safe and comfortable, and WotC doesn't even have to consider, let alone deal with, any unknowns that could possibly pop up from removing the reserved list (no matter how unlikely or minor). Seriously, Status Quo Bias is extremely well documented (yes, even in legitimate peer-reviewed academic articles).
Umm, that's exactly why I think we have the RL. There's no reason to change it, it's not in thier best interest to change it, so they keep the status quo. Not because of collector value or legal reasons. Glad we agree
It's going to take an extremely long period of most people being wholeheartedly in favor of removing it before WotC even considers getting rid of it.
People are already wholeheartedly in favor of removing it. Every major retailer and the top MTG collectors in the world have all come out publically calling for the RL to be abolished. It's not a new idea. WoTC does what's best for WoTC, not best for players. What's best for WoTC is growing Standard and letting the formats that make them no $$ fade off into the sunset. And thats exactly what they are doing.
Like it or not, the creation of Modern was the final nail in the coffin of the idea of the RL ever going away. It's never going to happen now.
Umm, that's exactly why I think we have the RL. There's no reason to change it, it's not in thier best interest to change it, so they keep the status quo. Not because of collector value or legal reasons. Glad we agree
No. We absolutely DO NOT agree. I did not say "it's not in their best interest to change it". Personally, I think it IS in their best interest to change it. What I stated was that it's likely to perceive maintaining the status quo to be the best choice, EVEN IF IT IS NOT. That is Status Quo Bias. Did you even read the wiki?
Second of all, how can you state that "Modern is absolute NOT Legacy lite", and then immediately after state "And Modern was a compromise. They know they can't have NO eternal format supported"? You're contradicting yourself!
Modern is like Legacy (and Vintage) because they are both eternal** formats! Nothing rotates out! That is why they are similar! And if your proposed problems for Legacy are true, then, in the long run, they will also necessarily befall Modern. Precisely because they are both eternal** formats!
Edit - **Eternal in the sense that no cards rotate out of the format. This isn't WotC's definition of eternal, but I was responding to Valarin, and this was the context in which he was using the term "eternal". Edited to clarify.
No, it shouldn't be abolished. The reserve list is a promise Wizards of the Coast made to its customers, and they've already reneged on that enough by deciding not to enforce it with new sets starting with Mercadian Masques.
Just out of curiosity, why would you want them to keep the promise? Is it because value of your collection would drop, or is there some other concrete reason? I'm asking because I take it that there has to be some reason, as why would you care about it otherwise?
Well, a company's word being trustworthy can mean a lot, whereas abolishing the list could destroy a fair amount of their credibility. Could theoretically be worth it all around, but it also might not be, and there may be legal reasons they aren't getting rid of it, as has been mentioned.
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Collecting Maw of the Mire! Feel free to send me any you have, so long as they're in reasonable condition.
No, it shouldn't be abolished. The reserve list is a promise Wizards of the Coast made to its customers, and they've already reneged on that enough by deciding not to enforce it with new sets starting with Mercadian Masques.
The customers who they made the promise to are in all likelihood never buying a pack from WotC again or no longer play the game. There are very few people at my LGS who were playing when the RL came into being. It is a relic of a bygone era. So many things were different back then. Collectors were an actual thing. Now? I know 3 collectors total, and ALL of them want the reserved list abolished.
Modern isn't close to legacy in terms of powerlevel. The two are leagues apart, just like legacy and vintage. People really don't understand, they're comparing cheetahs to elephants. Modern is NOT an eternal format. Eternal formats, by definition, have access to cards from every set in the game. Modern doesn't have the dark, homelands, ice age, mercadian masques, alliances, etc. etc. available to it for deckbuilding purposes therefore it isn't eternal.
"No reason to change it" --- Don't patronize me. There was every reason to change the list in march of 2010 when the reserved list was the topic at the front of everyones heads and WotC flew in Stephen Menendian and other high profile names to WotC HQ to discuss the reserved list. They detailed very sound reasons why the list is an old, outdated relic that should be abolished. Let's say dual lands are reprinted tomorrow. Is WotC introducing more alpha, beta, and summer copies into the market? No? Well what do people want? Pimp versions of cards. And alpha and beta are usually at the top of the list for people and you know how many copies of alpha and beta underground sea are out there? A few thousand copies exist of said cards. When the market was sold out of alpha and beta dual lands, the prices would skyrocket overnight as anyone who wanted an alpha underground sea would have to sell an arm, leg, and kidney to be able to obtain an alpha underground sea. Same is true of beta. Unlimited to a lesser extent. Also, what collectors go after revised duals? If I was a collector, I wouldn't go for ugly, ****ty revised duals. I'd be going for beta and alpha copies as revised copies are ugly as **** and VERY easy to obtain.
Also laugh at the lawsuit argument. The lawsuit argument is one of the biggest bull**** arguments people have ever given for WotC keeping the list. Try to bring an lawsuit to court involving a company devaluing your trading cards. You'll get laughed out of court and be publicly humiliated. Not to mention the RL is an internal company policy that isn't legally binding. No one signed anything when the reserved list came into effect.
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The customers who they made the promise to are in all likelihood never buying a pack from WotC again or no longer play the game. There are very few people at my LGS who were playing when the RL came into being. It is a relic of a bygone era. So many things were different back then. Collectors were an actual thing. Now? I know 3 collectors total, and ALL of them want the reserved list abolished.
Modern isn't close to legacy in terms of powerlevel. The two are leagues apart, just like legacy and vintage. People really don't understand, they're comparing cheetahs to elephants. Modern is NOT an eternal format. Eternal formats, by definition, have access to cards from every set in the game. Modern doesn't have the dark, homelands, ice age, mercadian masques, alliances, etc. etc. available to it for deckbuilding purposes therefore it isn't eternal.
"No reason to change it" --- Don't patronize me. There was every reason to change the list in march of 2010 when the reserved list was the topic at the front of everyones heads and WotC flew in Stephen Menendian and other high profile names to WotC HQ to discuss the reserved list. They detailed very sound reasons why the list is an old, outdated relic that should be abolished. Let's say dual lands are reprinted tomorrow. Is WotC introducing more alpha, beta, and summer copies into the market? No? Well what do people want? Pimp versions of cards. And alpha and beta are usually at the top of the list for people and you know how many copies of alpha and beta underground sea are out there? A few thousand copies exist of said cards. When the market was sold out of alpha and beta dual lands, the prices would skyrocket overnight as anyone who wanted an alpha underground sea would have to sell an arm, leg, and kidney to be able to obtain an alpha underground sea. Same is true of beta. Unlimited to a lesser extent. Also, what collectors go after revised duals? If I was a collector, I wouldn't go for ugly, ****ty revised duals. I'd be going for beta and alpha copies as revised copies are ugly as **** and VERY easy to obtain.
Also laugh at the lawsuit argument. The lawsuit argument is one of the biggest bull**** arguments people have ever given for WotC keeping the list. Try to bring an lawsuit to court involving a company devaluing your trading cards. You'll get laughed out of court and be publicly humiliated. Not to mention the RL is an internal company policy that isn't legally binding. No one signed anything when the reserved list came into effect.
Saying those customers will never buy another pack is specious at best -- stores are customers too. Their promise not to reprint cards leads to a certain stability for the high end of the marketplace. Wizards wants to sell their new sets, but the real money is in the secondary market, and it's in their best interest to keep the deep end of that particular pool as deep and inviting as possible. Sure, if the power nine et al were reprinted there would still be plenty of interest in the original printings, but not as much as there is now when Alpha through Unlimited are the only game in town.
Wizards wants to sell their new sets, but the real money is in the secondary market, and it's in their best interest to keep the deep end of that particular pool as deep and inviting as possible.
Do you have anything supporting this? Because I'm pretty sure every single B&M store I have ever been to makes many times more selling cards from new sets than they do selling cards from old sets. Stores get their new product at wholesale value from WotC, and they make the majority of their profit from selling new product to players at roughly MSRP. And that's not even counting the profits earned due to limited and standard events.
Sure, if the power nine et al were reprinted there would still be plenty of interest in the original printings, but not as much as there is now when Alpha through Unlimited are the only game in town.
Again, any supporting evidence? This is almost certainly also false, as almost all tournament playable cards INCREASE in demand when they are reprinted. Why? Because players will see they are not available, and begin demanding the cards, whereas before they did not want/need/consider the cards accessible, and so did not demand the cards. It is possible the price might go down, but the demand almost always goes up (and actually, in some cases the price goes up as well).
Saying those customers will never buy another pack is specious at best -- stores are customers too. Their promise not to reprint cards leads to a certain stability for the high end of the marketplace. Wizards wants to sell their new sets, but the real money is in the secondary market, and it's in their best interest to keep the deep end of that particular pool as deep and inviting as possible. Sure, if the power nine et al were reprinted there would still be plenty of interest in the original printings, but not as much as there is now when Alpha through Unlimited are the only game in town.
Look at beta and alpha shivan dragons and birds of paradise. Both are worth hundreds of dollars apiece despite being reprinted to death. Why? Because of the scarcity of the cards and how sought after they are for being pieces of the games history in that they were printed in 1993 and wizards will never release another card as beautiful as an alpha shivan dragon. Reprints have not decreased the interest in the originals. You could probably buy The Mona Lisa for a few hundred dollars...for a replica. That doesn't make the original Mona Lisa any less valuable as I suspect that if the original The Mona Lisa went to auction it would go for hundreds of millions of dollars. There's no replacing alpha dual lands with new frame **** dual lands that literally everyone would own or could own very easily.
Stores aren't really customers of WotC. The stores buy from distributors, who buy from WotC. Each time the product changes hands it's marked up. The stores aren't buying the packs to crack them. They're buying them to sell to customers. The only pack cracking comes from preordering and stocking their singles initially, if they have singles available for purchase (not all stores sell singles.) After that, most stores don't crack product for that particular set forevermore as they sell the rest of the packs to customers directly for 3.99.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
No. We absolutely DO NOT agree. I did not say "it's not in their best interest to change it". Personally, I think it IS in their best interest to change it. What I stated was that it's likely to perceive maintaining the status quo to be the best choice, EVEN IF IT IS NOT. That is Status Quo Bias. Did you even read the wiki?
No need to get so hostile. Obviously WoTC feels it is not in their best interest to change it, because they haven't changed it.
Second of all, how can you state that "Modern is absolute NOT Legacy lite", and then immediately after state "And Modern was a compromise. They know they can't have NO eternal format supported"? You're contradicting yourself!
Modern was created with a few specific concepts:
Not Eternal, not all card set are legal
Players should not be consistently winning on Turn 3 or earlier
Staples cards will be reprinted to keep prices and availability from become barriers to the format.
What exactly do any of those goals have in common with Legacy?
The only thing Modern has in common with Legacy is that it is non rotating. That's it. I think it's a pretty big jump to take that one sole similarity and brand Modern "Legacy-lite". I know a lot of players wanted it to be Legacy lite and allow a cheaper way to play at Legacy power levels, but the ban list and management of the format has clearly put that idea to bed.
Do you have anything supporting this? Because I'm pretty sure every single B&M store I have ever been to makes many times more selling cards from new sets than they do selling cards from old sets. Stores get their new product at wholesale value from WotC, and they make the majority of their profit from selling new product to players at roughly MSRP. And that's not even counting the profits earned due to limited and standard events.
Again, any supporting evidence? This is almost certainly also false, as almost all tournament playable cards INCREASE in demand when they are reprinted. Why? Because players will see they are not available, and begin demanding the cards, whereas before they did not want/need/consider the cards accessible, and so did not demand the cards. It is possible the price might go down, but the demand almost always goes up (and actually, in some cases the price goes up as well).
A friend of mine ran a successful store for years before selling it off so he could spend more time with his kids. Selling new product netted him some money, but not much. The majority of his profit came from selling singles, and he most definitely continued to crack open new boxes to restock singles well after the initial order had come and gone.
As for Bread's argument, original Birds of Paradise and so forth are reasonably valuable, but that doesn't mean that reprinting didn't drive down the price. Imagine what they be worth now if they had only been made available in Alpha through Unlimited.
Also, I was speaking specifically about the high end market (power nine, dual lands, etc.) -- the bump in price when a card reenters the type two market only lasts as long as it's type two legal. As soon as it drops back out, the worth of the original printing is watered down by the availability of all those easier-to-acquire reprints.
Also laugh at the lawsuit argument. The lawsuit argument is one of the biggest bull**** arguments people have ever given for WotC keeping the list. Try to bring an lawsuit to court involving a company devaluing your trading cards. You'll get laughed out of court and be publicly humiliated. Not to mention the RL is an internal company policy that isn't legally binding. No one signed anything when the reserved list came into effect.
This is very incorrect. Courts hear seemingly silly cases all the time. Further, reneging on the reserve list fits almost all the traditional elements of the American legal theory "promissory estoppel." The only iffy part is the need to show damages - summarily, prices would have to actually drop. Maybe they wouldn't drop, as some argue, but the possibility of arguing about it in a class action is probably enough to keep Hasbro's attorneys telling WotC not to renege.
Here's a quote I dug up from WOTC forums in the other Reserved List discussion. I know it's just some guy on internet claiming to be a lawyer, but what he is saying makes sense. If you think he's not correct, by all means mention the details which prove that.
His argument is certainly reasonable. Like what I posted above, he mentioned that the relevant legal theory is promissory estoppel, and like myself he identified damages as the issue. I said that it would be tough for plaintiffs to prove damages because some cards don't actually drop in value, etc., and he in more detail explained potential pitfalls for the plaintiffs along those lines. I think you can see that we're not that far off from each other.
However, it's a bit overreaching for him to conclude so strongly that legal issues don't discourage WotC from violating the reserve list policy. First, he points out all these actually hypothetical problems while ignoring the possibility that for particular cards they don't pan out. In real litigation, plaintiffs would be able to just pick the cards that had actually dropped in value and complain about those. It would be no defense for WotC to say some cards had gone up and some down - the legal claim would be for the dropped ones. Second, he says WotC would make way more from selling cards than they would pay their lawyers, but that's far from certain. Plaintiffs would likely file class actions on every Reserve List card that had dropped in value, and defending that suit would probably involve Hasbro hiring big-time litigation attorneys in San Fran, LA, or Chicago at $600/hr. Even if they eventually won, the costs would be outrageous.
I think the most reasonable conclusion to draw, contra your friend from the WotC Community forums, is that fear of legal problems may be one reason WotC adheres to the reprint policy. No doubt they have other reasons like maintaining credibility and wanting to focus on Standard and Modern where they have a much less bah-roken cardpool.
To be clear, though, my post above was pointing out that people without legal experience shouldn't be skeptical about the legal issues out of hand - no, people would not get laughed out of court just because it's magic cards.
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I would love to see another boxed set with all 10 dual lands, new border, new artwork, and foiled, obviously banned in sanctioned tournaments. This collection of lands would be bought so fast by casual EDH'ers WotC would be hard-pressed to keep up with demand. In addition, most EDH'ers would also sell off their original duals as they have no need for them. Most die-hard EDH'ers foil their decks so having these lands would be priority over the others, as even a beta Bayou is an eye sore in a Savra deck
Wizards doesn't make any money off the single's market and even if they charged $100.00 a set, I would think most people would drop 4 bills for a playset.
What would happen to the value of The Power 9 and Duals if they were all banned from Legacy and Vintage? The other cards would be unaffected. The reserve list would still be in effect as dictated by the unwritten promise by Wizards but you would never be able to play with them outside of KTM (Kitchen Table Magic).
I only learned one thing in kindergarten: The bigger you were, the less you had to share!
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A beta dual land is never an eyesore.
Anyone who's insisting otherwise is probably kidding themselves. Sure you can have other reasons, but the main reason for most is pretty assuredly "I come first".
I really don't care either way. I have the cards to play pretty much every deck in every format. Would I like to see more players at Legacy Opens and GPs? Of course. I would loooove to be able to play Legacy regularly on the PT. I also think a lot of greatly overvalue their own skill, and like to believe that owning more cards would increase their win percentage by some absurd amount, as if it's the only factor keeping them from winning multiple pro tours. It might be a good reality check for a lot of players, which may or may not be a good thing.
Bident Layers
B Devotion
RG Devotion
UW Control
Modern:
Jund
UW Control
Combo Pod
Legacy:
DeathBlade
RUG Delver
BUG Control
Those aren't the only motivators for keeping or removing the list.
I own literally every card on the list but one, most of them in copious multiples but I still wish for the abolition of the list. I want the older eternal formats to be more accessible to other people. I would also like to see several of them reprinted because I think that they would be interesting in the modern environment and for nostalgia's sake.
Every English card ever printed: 99.02%
Arabian Nights through Lorwyn: Complete
Alpha: 94.2% Beta: 95.0%
Unlimited through M10: Complete
+1. I don't have every card on the list but I have most of them and multiples of a lot. I'd stand to lose a lot of money if they got reprinted but I'd still like to see it happen. The way I look at it is these are just pieces to a game and you need the pieces to play. Imagine if monopoly only came with half the pieces you need and you had to buy extra boxes of stuff in the hopes that you get the one you're after. That would suck. Personally I think entire sets should be sold at a reasonable price for constructed play (maybe even have the ability to buy singles directly from wizards for the same price on every card) and have packs still being put out for used in limited. People would still buy up cards like crazy so to me it seems like a win-win scenario for wizards.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
Very good point. Look at Loyal Retainers.
Starcitygames.com has the Commander's Arsenal reprinted version @ $50. The original Portal print run is still priced as high as its ever been. In fact, the Portal version remains a whole $100 more than the Commander reprint. Same thing applys to a lot of the cards from Legends that were reprinted in Chronicles (Rubinia Soulsinger, Chromium ) as well as Alpha/Beta cards reprinted in revised that remain staples today.
Of course, this doesn't mean that reprint runs won't make some cards go down, but in large part there will always be the "pimp" factor. To add to that, it hardly makes sense for anyone to get angry over their $5 card in 1994 going from $190 to $155 in 2013.
The "pimp" factor generally applies to all collectibles. You wouldn't have to empty your bank account to purchase a replica 1896 Morgan Dollar. Even at 99.999% fine silver the coin is only worth $35 at spot value. An original 1896 Morgan dollar actually contains less silver than the replicas do (90%), but ones that are in near mint condition can fetch anywhere between $100,000-$150,000.
Legacy Burn
NO Combo Elves
Reanimator
Trades
Burn Primer
:symg:Free Gaea's Cradle:symg:
No, that's why. They don't want to admit it, but a lot of people invested in WOTC to maintain the value of their collections and they won't let them do it.
WoTC doesn't have stockholders. They are subsidiary of Hasbro. And Hasbro's stock price has nothing to do with the reserve list or not
Those people have zero sway over the decision
The "secret cabal of collectors" is a complete myth. There is no evidence to back it up whatsoever. There is no evidence to support the reserve listing being driven by card value, collection value, or for any legal reasons.
The only think that makes sense is that abolishing the Reserve List would not be in WoTC's best interests, which is why they don't do it. Some possibilities as to why it would not be in their best interests are player backlash for breaking a promise, or (the one I subscribe to), promoting Legacy play would cannibalize Standard, which is not what they want to do.
Abolishing the reserve list would ultimately have one large effect on the game: More people would stop playing Standard and start playing Legacy/Vintage. That's not in WoTC's best interests. Even if they made Legacy Masters the biggest print run ever and sold them for $25 a pack, long term, they are shooting themselves in the foot by pushing Standard players in Legacy.
Players want the RL list gone because it benefits them. WoTC wants the RL around because it benefits WoTC. And we all know who wins that fight.
Never doubt the level of contrianism in the MTG player base. It is epic.
Counterpoint: Modern.
It's essentially Legacy - Lite Edition, and in the long term, would suffer from all the problems you are associating with Legacy. I don't think removing the reserved list would hurt WotC's interest in standard, especially since most Legacy players I've met are very seriously into the game and also play Standard (yes, in addition to Legacy).
Honestly, I think you're seriously underestimating the power of the status quo. There doesn't have to be a flawless, completely rational reason for keeping the reserved list. We have the reserved list because we've had the reserved list for a long time and ideas have inertia. The state things are in is safe and comfortable, and WotC doesn't even have to consider, let alone deal with, any unknowns that could possibly pop up from removing the reserved list (no matter how unlikely or minor). Seriously, Status Quo Bias is extremely well documented (yes, even in legitimate peer-reviewed academic articles).
It's going to take an extremely long period of most people being wholeheartedly in favor of removing it before WotC even considers getting rid of it.
Modern is absolute NOT Legacy lite, and it was NEVER meant to be. Modern is fed as a format from Standard, and Standard cards are MUCH more relevant in Modern than Legacy, driving Standard sales.
And Modern was a compromise. They know they can't have NO eternal format supported, that would alienate players. So they made a format as close to Standard as they could.
Umm, that's exactly why I think we have the RL. There's no reason to change it, it's not in thier best interest to change it, so they keep the status quo. Not because of collector value or legal reasons. Glad we agree
People are already wholeheartedly in favor of removing it. Every major retailer and the top MTG collectors in the world have all come out publically calling for the RL to be abolished. It's not a new idea. WoTC does what's best for WoTC, not best for players. What's best for WoTC is growing Standard and letting the formats that make them no $$ fade off into the sunset. And thats exactly what they are doing.
Like it or not, the creation of Modern was the final nail in the coffin of the idea of the RL ever going away. It's never going to happen now.
No. We absolutely DO NOT agree. I did not say "it's not in their best interest to change it". Personally, I think it IS in their best interest to change it. What I stated was that it's likely to perceive maintaining the status quo to be the best choice, EVEN IF IT IS NOT. That is Status Quo Bias. Did you even read the wiki?
Second of all, how can you state that "Modern is absolute NOT Legacy lite", and then immediately after state "And Modern was a compromise. They know they can't have NO eternal format supported"? You're contradicting yourself!
Modern is like Legacy (and Vintage) because they are both eternal** formats! Nothing rotates out! That is why they are similar! And if your proposed problems for Legacy are true, then, in the long run, they will also necessarily befall Modern. Precisely because they are both eternal** formats!
Edit - **Eternal in the sense that no cards rotate out of the format. This isn't WotC's definition of eternal, but I was responding to Valarin, and this was the context in which he was using the term "eternal". Edited to clarify.
Well, a company's word being trustworthy can mean a lot, whereas abolishing the list could destroy a fair amount of their credibility. Could theoretically be worth it all around, but it also might not be, and there may be legal reasons they aren't getting rid of it, as has been mentioned.
Well, the first reason there is still valid. Though, yeah, second reason is unrelated. Sorry, I'm tired and I tend to misread things when I'm tired.
The customers who they made the promise to are in all likelihood never buying a pack from WotC again or no longer play the game. There are very few people at my LGS who were playing when the RL came into being. It is a relic of a bygone era. So many things were different back then. Collectors were an actual thing. Now? I know 3 collectors total, and ALL of them want the reserved list abolished.
Modern isn't close to legacy in terms of powerlevel. The two are leagues apart, just like legacy and vintage. People really don't understand, they're comparing cheetahs to elephants. Modern is NOT an eternal format. Eternal formats, by definition, have access to cards from every set in the game. Modern doesn't have the dark, homelands, ice age, mercadian masques, alliances, etc. etc. available to it for deckbuilding purposes therefore it isn't eternal.
"No reason to change it" --- Don't patronize me. There was every reason to change the list in march of 2010 when the reserved list was the topic at the front of everyones heads and WotC flew in Stephen Menendian and other high profile names to WotC HQ to discuss the reserved list. They detailed very sound reasons why the list is an old, outdated relic that should be abolished. Let's say dual lands are reprinted tomorrow. Is WotC introducing more alpha, beta, and summer copies into the market? No? Well what do people want? Pimp versions of cards. And alpha and beta are usually at the top of the list for people and you know how many copies of alpha and beta underground sea are out there? A few thousand copies exist of said cards. When the market was sold out of alpha and beta dual lands, the prices would skyrocket overnight as anyone who wanted an alpha underground sea would have to sell an arm, leg, and kidney to be able to obtain an alpha underground sea. Same is true of beta. Unlimited to a lesser extent. Also, what collectors go after revised duals? If I was a collector, I wouldn't go for ugly, ****ty revised duals. I'd be going for beta and alpha copies as revised copies are ugly as **** and VERY easy to obtain.
Also laugh at the lawsuit argument. The lawsuit argument is one of the biggest bull**** arguments people have ever given for WotC keeping the list. Try to bring an lawsuit to court involving a company devaluing your trading cards. You'll get laughed out of court and be publicly humiliated. Not to mention the RL is an internal company policy that isn't legally binding. No one signed anything when the reserved list came into effect.
Currently Playing:
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Saying those customers will never buy another pack is specious at best -- stores are customers too. Their promise not to reprint cards leads to a certain stability for the high end of the marketplace. Wizards wants to sell their new sets, but the real money is in the secondary market, and it's in their best interest to keep the deep end of that particular pool as deep and inviting as possible. Sure, if the power nine et al were reprinted there would still be plenty of interest in the original printings, but not as much as there is now when Alpha through Unlimited are the only game in town.
Do you have anything supporting this? Because I'm pretty sure every single B&M store I have ever been to makes many times more selling cards from new sets than they do selling cards from old sets. Stores get their new product at wholesale value from WotC, and they make the majority of their profit from selling new product to players at roughly MSRP. And that's not even counting the profits earned due to limited and standard events.
Again, any supporting evidence? This is almost certainly also false, as almost all tournament playable cards INCREASE in demand when they are reprinted. Why? Because players will see they are not available, and begin demanding the cards, whereas before they did not want/need/consider the cards accessible, and so did not demand the cards. It is possible the price might go down, but the demand almost always goes up (and actually, in some cases the price goes up as well).
Look at beta and alpha shivan dragons and birds of paradise. Both are worth hundreds of dollars apiece despite being reprinted to death. Why? Because of the scarcity of the cards and how sought after they are for being pieces of the games history in that they were printed in 1993 and wizards will never release another card as beautiful as an alpha shivan dragon. Reprints have not decreased the interest in the originals. You could probably buy The Mona Lisa for a few hundred dollars...for a replica. That doesn't make the original Mona Lisa any less valuable as I suspect that if the original The Mona Lisa went to auction it would go for hundreds of millions of dollars. There's no replacing alpha dual lands with new frame **** dual lands that literally everyone would own or could own very easily.
Stores aren't really customers of WotC. The stores buy from distributors, who buy from WotC. Each time the product changes hands it's marked up. The stores aren't buying the packs to crack them. They're buying them to sell to customers. The only pack cracking comes from preordering and stocking their singles initially, if they have singles available for purchase (not all stores sell singles.) After that, most stores don't crack product for that particular set forevermore as they sell the rest of the packs to customers directly for 3.99.
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No need to get so hostile. Obviously WoTC feels it is not in their best interest to change it, because they haven't changed it.
Modern was created with a few specific concepts:
Not Eternal, not all card set are legal
Players should not be consistently winning on Turn 3 or earlier
Staples cards will be reprinted to keep prices and availability from become barriers to the format.
What exactly do any of those goals have in common with Legacy?
The only thing Modern has in common with Legacy is that it is non rotating. That's it. I think it's a pretty big jump to take that one sole similarity and brand Modern "Legacy-lite". I know a lot of players wanted it to be Legacy lite and allow a cheaper way to play at Legacy power levels, but the ban list and management of the format has clearly put that idea to bed.
A friend of mine ran a successful store for years before selling it off so he could spend more time with his kids. Selling new product netted him some money, but not much. The majority of his profit came from selling singles, and he most definitely continued to crack open new boxes to restock singles well after the initial order had come and gone.
As for Bread's argument, original Birds of Paradise and so forth are reasonably valuable, but that doesn't mean that reprinting didn't drive down the price. Imagine what they be worth now if they had only been made available in Alpha through Unlimited.
Also, I was speaking specifically about the high end market (power nine, dual lands, etc.) -- the bump in price when a card reenters the type two market only lasts as long as it's type two legal. As soon as it drops back out, the worth of the original printing is watered down by the availability of all those easier-to-acquire reprints.
This is very incorrect. Courts hear seemingly silly cases all the time. Further, reneging on the reserve list fits almost all the traditional elements of the American legal theory "promissory estoppel." The only iffy part is the need to show damages - summarily, prices would have to actually drop. Maybe they wouldn't drop, as some argue, but the possibility of arguing about it in a class action is probably enough to keep Hasbro's attorneys telling WotC not to renege.
His argument is certainly reasonable. Like what I posted above, he mentioned that the relevant legal theory is promissory estoppel, and like myself he identified damages as the issue. I said that it would be tough for plaintiffs to prove damages because some cards don't actually drop in value, etc., and he in more detail explained potential pitfalls for the plaintiffs along those lines. I think you can see that we're not that far off from each other.
However, it's a bit overreaching for him to conclude so strongly that legal issues don't discourage WotC from violating the reserve list policy. First, he points out all these actually hypothetical problems while ignoring the possibility that for particular cards they don't pan out. In real litigation, plaintiffs would be able to just pick the cards that had actually dropped in value and complain about those. It would be no defense for WotC to say some cards had gone up and some down - the legal claim would be for the dropped ones. Second, he says WotC would make way more from selling cards than they would pay their lawyers, but that's far from certain. Plaintiffs would likely file class actions on every Reserve List card that had dropped in value, and defending that suit would probably involve Hasbro hiring big-time litigation attorneys in San Fran, LA, or Chicago at $600/hr. Even if they eventually won, the costs would be outrageous.
We also discussed these issues in the article discussion for Flogging the Data: Determinants of Card Prices, Part 1.
I think the most reasonable conclusion to draw, contra your friend from the WotC Community forums, is that fear of legal problems may be one reason WotC adheres to the reprint policy. No doubt they have other reasons like maintaining credibility and wanting to focus on Standard and Modern where they have a much less bah-roken cardpool.
To be clear, though, my post above was pointing out that people without legal experience shouldn't be skeptical about the legal issues out of hand - no, people would not get laughed out of court just because it's magic cards.