At the last round of a GP trial several months ago, I was paired against somebody who had more points than me. Apparently if he won against me he would be in the top 8 cutoff. I knew that I wouldn't advance if I won. Despite all that, he asked me to concede and I refused. I wanted to play and earn planeswalker points. I saw that I made him angry by refusing to give up automatically.
That player ended up winning against me anyway and thus advanced to the top 8. Him and his friends bothered me later on about not conceding earlier; they said that it's wrong to hold somebody back just because you can't make it to top 8 anymore. In my opinion, if I let a player advance into higher standings without a challenge, then that can bump somebody else down, somebody who actually played their match and won.
I feel that it is wrong to concede to a player just because they are higher in the standings. Let me know if you agree or disagree with me because I could be the one who is wrong.
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I fully agree with you. People like that...meh, the more they bother me about it, the more motivated I am to beat them out. Sure it won't earn you any brownie points with him or his pals, but hey.
Seriously, he's free to ask, but that's it - he ASKS, he can't FORCE you into anything. The later harassing is really sad of them. He won, he should let it go.
Me, I'd usually play. Might say "Sure, you got the win" if there's nothing for me on the line, but I'll still ask to at least play some games. If they don't agree to that, then I'll simply say we'll play for the win regardless. I come to play games.
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Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
It depends on how much you want to dream crush, but I generally concede when I'm in that position. A few planeswalker points aren't worth dream crushing some one when you're not even in contention for the Top 8 and the GP Byes or even the prizes. They've clearly earned their slot as their match-wins are higher than yours, I see nothing wrong with conceding to a person in that position. I think it's a bit rude to not to actually.
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It depends on how much you want to dream crush, but I generally concede when I'm in that position. A few planeswalker points aren't worth dream crushing some one when you're not even in contention for the Top 8 and the GP Byes or even the prizes. They've clearly earned their slot as their match-wins are higher than yours, I see nothing wrong with conceding to a person in that position. I think it's a bit rude to not to actually.
They haven't earned it yet. If they lose to you, a lower player...did they really earn their spot?
Just food for thought.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
If I like/know the person I concede. If i'm put in that position by a random guy and he asks me nicely enough I usually will. If I'm not going to get anything out of it I'll just concede. I will, however, ask if they play against me anyway just so I don't feel like I wasted money to not play >_> (They usually almost always do)
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I'm not sure why you want the planeswalker points so bad, they don't really do anything.
The general sportsman-like thing to do in the situation is concede, but whether you concede or not is really your decision, and if you didn't want to that is up to you. You did nothing wrong.
Of course, if you dream crushed him he'll be pissed at you, but wouldn't you be pissed if the roles were reversed?
I'm not sure why you want the planeswalker points so bad, they don't really do anything.
The general sportsman-like thing to do in the situation is concede, but whether you concede or not is really your decision, and if you didn't want to that is up to you. You did nothing wrong.
Of course, if you dream crushed him he'll be pissed at you, but wouldn't you be pissed if the roles were reversed?
I would be upset but I would accept my opponent's decision not to concede. I've been dream crushed before but it's not because my opponent didn't concede, it's because I didn't win. It's my fault I lost, not his.
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It's fine not to concede. People call it "dreamcrushing," ignoring the fact that, if you concede, you very well may be crushing the dreams of someone else in the tournament. There's only 8 slots; you are by necessity depriving someone else of that spot no matter what you do. You paid to play Magic, and you have every right to play it.
I would be upset but I would accept my opponent's decision not to concede. I've been dream crushed before but it's not because my opponent didn't concede, it's because I didn't win. It's my fault I lost, not his.
Then it sounds like you clearly have your answer. There's nothing in the rulebook that says you have to concede, so you clearly did nothing wrong, although some might consider it a bit rude. But who cares what other people think, as long as you're ok with the choice, which, by the sound of it, you are.
Competitive Magic operates under a gentelman's agreement. If you aren't losing anything you are suppose to help your teammates first and then the opponents you play. If it's not hurting you, you should scoop your opponent in and expect he would do the same for you. No one likes dreamcrushers
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Competitive Magic operates under a gentelman's agreement. If you aren't losing anything you are suppose to help your teammates first and then the opponents you play. If it's not hurting you, you should scoop your opponent in and expect he would do the same for you. No one likes dreamcrushers
Except for the other X-1s or X-0-1s that miss the top 8 because you conceded...
This obviously doesn't happen every time, but I've always felt like you need to be extremely aware of the standings before I scoop. Unless there are Pro Points involved, it's probably not worth it to haggle.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
It depends on how much you want to dream crush, but I generally concede when I'm in that position. A few planeswalker points aren't worth dream crushing some one when you're not even in contention for the Top 8 and the GP Byes or even the prizes. They've clearly earned their slot as their match-wins are higher than yours, I see nothing wrong with conceding to a person in that position. I think it's a bit rude to not to actually.
What's the difference between dream crushing the stranger in front of you and dream crushing a second stranger who would make it into the top 8 in place of the first stranger?
Someone's going to make it into the top 8 and someone else isn't, regardless.
Do I personally like or am friends with my opponent?
Do I lose anything by losing?
Are my friends or people I like in top 8 contention?
Have I done math well enough where I can determine seeding for top 8 and want to either positively or negatively impact my opponent's chances of winning their first round of top 8?
For argument's sake, let's say I know my friend is going to be first seed in top 8 (because he's the only x-0-1) and if my opponent lost to me he would be 8th seed in top 8 (being the x-1-1 with obviously the worst breakers and we know no x-2s make it). My friend's match-up would therefore influence whether I wanted to beat my opponent, scoop to him, or actually offer the draw. If my friend had a good match-up I would try to beat my current opponent. On the other hand, if my friend's match-up was abysmal, I would offer the draw so my friend would play him as late as possible in top 8 play-offs (my opponent now would end up x-0-2 and in something like 2nd or 3rd place, which would mean battling my friend in the finals).
It's never actually that involved or obvious. Typically, I'm in the higher position trying to dream-crush individuals who would be in top 8 with a draw, but I try to squeak my friends in on x-2.
I find the concept of conceding in this circumstance odd. If it were proper to concede then the match should be an auto-win for the higher ranked player by the nature of the rules (it isn't). There are only 8 spots, so as others have said, you are deciding who gets in either way instead of letting the game decide. The purpose of playing in a tournament is to play to win and have fun, deciding not to play to convey prizes is counter to the purpose of everyone being there.
It is logically unfair to the other players eligible for the top 8 to concede, again, if it were fair then the round would be auto-win for the top 8 eligible players and just be played as an exhibition round.
By conceding you are considering only yourself and your opponent, but being inconsiderate of the rest of the players there.
As someone who has been squeezed out of top 8s because of players scooping to others, I personally feels is morally incorrect to scoop. It is in my view its no different from cheating because players are manipulating the standings without playing and falsifying wins.
Wizards in attempt to prevent these situations made the ranking of top 8 relevant to determine who goes first.
As someone who has been squeezed out of top 8s because of players scooping to others, I personally feels is morally incorrect to scoop. It is in my view its no different from cheating because players are manipulating the standings without playing and falsifying wins.
Wizards in attempt to prevent these situations made the ranking of top 8 relevant to determine who goes first.
If you were in that position you needed a win and someone else above you to lose, thats not a great position to be in to make a top 8 anyway.
It doesn't really seem fair to blame missing a top 8 under those circumstances any more than to miss one because everyone in top 8 draws and your left in 9th.
In short that's the breaks
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It's fine not to concede. People call it "dreamcrushing," ignoring the fact that, if you concede, you very well may be crushing the dreams of someone else in the tournament. There's only 8 slots; you are by necessity depriving someone else of that spot no matter what you do. You paid to play Magic, and you have every right to play it.
Agreed. A lot of people seem to miss the person that wouldn't make it because of your concession.
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If you were in that position you needed a win and someone else above you to lose, thats not a great position to be in to make a top 8 anyway.
It doesn't really seem fair to blame missing a top 8 under those circumstances any more than to miss one because everyone in top 8 draws and your left in 9th.
In short that's the breaks
Not true at all.
If I am X-1 before top 8 and I beat my opponent 2-1, and other players are scooped to with 2-0 win it affects tie breakers. If the scenario you proposed is correct its still not "honest" to scoop as it effects the results of others. Why should someone be given free wins?
Depends who the player is and how they react to the situation. If you badger me, I'll play it out and hope for a win. If you're respectful about it, I'd let you have the match. Most people are rude and it leads right into a rage quit when I point out that:
1. I knew I was out of top 8 contention
2. Coming off as "that guy" just cost you a match I would have given had you been a decent human being.
I find the idea of just conceding to be stupid, the same as I do tying just to get into the top 8. If I came here to play magic, I came here to play magic. I didn't come to look at the ceiling for 45 minutes while everyone else plays magic. I don't care if the other person is out prizes because if it, someone else would have been out prizes too. If you can just to collect your prizes/pro points and don't want to play, you need to pick a new hobby.
Its really funny how people who have never been in the upper echelon of play experience view upper tier play and more than likely won't ever see this possition have such a strong feeling about it. Let alone if they ever do get to top tier play where these things matter they will flip to the other side of the table and expect the scoop.
Yes I get it that inexperienced players don't get it, strictly because they arn't there at that position every week trying to stradle the top 8 slots. But once you start to stay near top tables you know most of your opponents at the end and expect the step out of the way as it more than likely comes back to you in one way or another.
Do I feel the OP should have scooped? Yes entirely. Do I know what should happen for the top players during the last 2 rounds of any tourney, yes entirely.
What next people going to ask that draws be taken out of the game so people can't draw into top 8, did those people not earn their spot either? How is it different? They arn't playing their last rounds either.
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I will play what wins, not what is convenient. Personal preference is nothing, The win is all that matters. I will netdeck at every opportunity, but I will not let that stifle my creativity. Style points do not appear on tournament reports. A good deck with an incompetent pilot is nothing more than a dressed up match win. I will crush my opponent mercilessly, and expect no less from him. Victory is its own reward, The prize is just a bonus.
Legacy is dying
The only time i get upset about someone not scooping is if a draw is going to knock both of us out, and one person is clearly going to win the game.
I had this come up in a PTQ earlier this year. We both had a loss going into Rd 3. He was playing mono red, i was playing melira pod. In G3, i had 2 obstinate baloths on the board with a reveillark in hand and was at 22 life. He had one card in hand (it was a bolt), and was at 12. I could attack and put him to 4, and then we would draw.
I asked him to scoop, noting that a draw that early in the event would have knocked us both out. The attendace was 125 people or so, so only about half the 5-1-1's would make it to top8 and we didn't have a chance.
He refused, saying that we still had a chance to top8. I told him we didn't and that the draw knocked us both out. I ended up winning out and getting 9th, with tiebreakers that put me WAYYYYY lower than the 8th place finisher. My opponent lost one more round and finished in the 20s.
I hate the time structure for magic since I'm typically a very fast player, and getting a draw like that is super frustrating. If i had been mean to my opponent and forced the pace of play along, i would have won. It gives me incentive to not be nice at an event.
Unless you play enough magic that the pwp are relevant (based on your OP I'll assume they are not, anyone grinding enough pwp to be relevant would scoop anyways), it's a douche move to not scoop when you stand to gain nothing and he stands to gain something.
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That player ended up winning against me anyway and thus advanced to the top 8. Him and his friends bothered me later on about not conceding earlier; they said that it's wrong to hold somebody back just because you can't make it to top 8 anymore. In my opinion, if I let a player advance into higher standings without a challenge, then that can bump somebody else down, somebody who actually played their match and won.
I feel that it is wrong to concede to a player just because they are higher in the standings. Let me know if you agree or disagree with me because I could be the one who is wrong.
"You are now the second-to-last troll!"
- Lotleth Troll, to Thrun.
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Seriously, he's free to ask, but that's it - he ASKS, he can't FORCE you into anything. The later harassing is really sad of them. He won, he should let it go.
Me, I'd usually play. Might say "Sure, you got the win" if there's nothing for me on the line, but I'll still ask to at least play some games. If they don't agree to that, then I'll simply say we'll play for the win regardless. I come to play games.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
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They haven't earned it yet. If they lose to you, a lower player...did they really earn their spot?
Just food for thought.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
By: ol MISAKA lo
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The general sportsman-like thing to do in the situation is concede, but whether you concede or not is really your decision, and if you didn't want to that is up to you. You did nothing wrong.
Of course, if you dream crushed him he'll be pissed at you, but wouldn't you be pissed if the roles were reversed?
I would be upset but I would accept my opponent's decision not to concede. I've been dream crushed before but it's not because my opponent didn't concede, it's because I didn't win. It's my fault I lost, not his.
"You are now the second-to-last troll!"
- Lotleth Troll, to Thrun.
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Then it sounds like you clearly have your answer. There's nothing in the rulebook that says you have to concede, so you clearly did nothing wrong, although some might consider it a bit rude. But who cares what other people think, as long as you're ok with the choice, which, by the sound of it, you are.
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Except for the other X-1s or X-0-1s that miss the top 8 because you conceded...
This obviously doesn't happen every time, but I've always felt like you need to be extremely aware of the standings before I scoop. Unless there are Pro Points involved, it's probably not worth it to haggle.
What's the difference between dream crushing the stranger in front of you and dream crushing a second stranger who would make it into the top 8 in place of the first stranger?
Someone's going to make it into the top 8 and someone else isn't, regardless.
Thread | Draft
Do I personally like or am friends with my opponent?
Do I lose anything by losing?
Are my friends or people I like in top 8 contention?
Have I done math well enough where I can determine seeding for top 8 and want to either positively or negatively impact my opponent's chances of winning their first round of top 8?
For argument's sake, let's say I know my friend is going to be first seed in top 8 (because he's the only x-0-1) and if my opponent lost to me he would be 8th seed in top 8 (being the x-1-1 with obviously the worst breakers and we know no x-2s make it). My friend's match-up would therefore influence whether I wanted to beat my opponent, scoop to him, or actually offer the draw. If my friend had a good match-up I would try to beat my current opponent. On the other hand, if my friend's match-up was abysmal, I would offer the draw so my friend would play him as late as possible in top 8 play-offs (my opponent now would end up x-0-2 and in something like 2nd or 3rd place, which would mean battling my friend in the finals).
It's never actually that involved or obvious. Typically, I'm in the higher position trying to dream-crush individuals who would be in top 8 with a draw, but I try to squeak my friends in on x-2.
It is logically unfair to the other players eligible for the top 8 to concede, again, if it were fair then the round would be auto-win for the top 8 eligible players and just be played as an exhibition round.
By conceding you are considering only yourself and your opponent, but being inconsiderate of the rest of the players there.
Wizards in attempt to prevent these situations made the ranking of top 8 relevant to determine who goes first.
If you were in that position you needed a win and someone else above you to lose, thats not a great position to be in to make a top 8 anyway.
It doesn't really seem fair to blame missing a top 8 under those circumstances any more than to miss one because everyone in top 8 draws and your left in 9th.
In short that's the breaks
BEtched Champion/InfectB
WSoilders/knightsW
WUVenser SplicerWU
RRDWR
GFeed the Pack comboG
WUPool of ExhaustionWU
EDH
GEzuri, Elf OverrunG
BGeth, GraverobberB
UThada Adel, ThiefU
RUrabrask, Big RedR
WElesh Norn, CrusadeW
WUGAngus Makenzie, Bant ControlWUG
Extended
WGElvesWG
Legacy
RGoblinsR
UBGFariesUBG
UBGRaffinityUBG
Agreed. A lot of people seem to miss the person that wouldn't make it because of your concession.
EDH: Captain Sisay Tokens
Standard: White Weenie :symw:, UW Control:symwu:
Not true at all.
If I am X-1 before top 8 and I beat my opponent 2-1, and other players are scooped to with 2-0 win it affects tie breakers. If the scenario you proposed is correct its still not "honest" to scoop as it effects the results of others. Why should someone be given free wins?
1. I knew I was out of top 8 contention
2. Coming off as "that guy" just cost you a match I would have given had you been a decent human being.
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This, definitely.
I wouldn't even do it for a friend unless it was an extreme circumstance.
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Yes I get it that inexperienced players don't get it, strictly because they arn't there at that position every week trying to stradle the top 8 slots. But once you start to stay near top tables you know most of your opponents at the end and expect the step out of the way as it more than likely comes back to you in one way or another.
Do I feel the OP should have scooped? Yes entirely. Do I know what should happen for the top players during the last 2 rounds of any tourney, yes entirely.
What next people going to ask that draws be taken out of the game so people can't draw into top 8, did those people not earn their spot either? How is it different? They arn't playing their last rounds either.
Personal preference is nothing, The win is all that matters.
I will netdeck at every opportunity, but I will not let that stifle my creativity.
Style points do not appear on tournament reports.
A good deck with an incompetent pilot is nothing more than a dressed up match win.
I will crush my opponent mercilessly, and expect no less from him.
Victory is its own reward, The prize is just a bonus.
Legacy is dying
I had this come up in a PTQ earlier this year. We both had a loss going into Rd 3. He was playing mono red, i was playing melira pod. In G3, i had 2 obstinate baloths on the board with a reveillark in hand and was at 22 life. He had one card in hand (it was a bolt), and was at 12. I could attack and put him to 4, and then we would draw.
I asked him to scoop, noting that a draw that early in the event would have knocked us both out. The attendace was 125 people or so, so only about half the 5-1-1's would make it to top8 and we didn't have a chance.
He refused, saying that we still had a chance to top8. I told him we didn't and that the draw knocked us both out. I ended up winning out and getting 9th, with tiebreakers that put me WAYYYYY lower than the 8th place finisher. My opponent lost one more round and finished in the 20s.
I hate the time structure for magic since I'm typically a very fast player, and getting a draw like that is super frustrating. If i had been mean to my opponent and forced the pace of play along, i would have won. It gives me incentive to not be nice at an event.