its has already been said that that is only because no one has found a way to break it yet...and maybe someone has it just hasn't been known yet...think about it, after the first use its 2 mana (1 for equip the other for creature) and you draw 2, as many times as you want, and with the decks it would run in, it goes fast, plus you use it on a big creature to boost power and the draw cards when it dies...this is a sick card...
just because it isn't broken in vintage yet doesn't mean it isn't good, and that it doesn't have tons of potential
We know how to break it. Lots of creatures (like the ways it's used in Elves) or a recurring creature (like it's used with Bloodghast). It's nowhere near as useful in as many different kinds of decks as Brainstorm, or anywhere near as powerful as Yawgmoth's Bargain.
Contract from Below should be 3 if it's not going to be listed at 1 or 2. If we're not including that card, then Brainstorm or Yawgmoth's Bargain.
Agree, especially if Contract isn't at number 1. I'm not sure if yuo have actually ever casted it but i've played 5-color when it was still ante and trust me there was reason a terrible card like recoup was restricted in that format.
yeah - obviously I disagree with you, John. Spam Warning!.....Amazing - even in a forum where posts don't count, there's spam. That proves that getting rid of the post-count won't help getting rid of spam! Thans for this excellent example! - Craven
The thing is necro can only be played in a deck where winning the game with necro is the point, ie storm combo or a straight 4x necro deck. However Brainstorm can and will go into everysingle deck running blue if it is avaliable in the card selection.
Remember were talking about the best draw spell so we have to see everysingle aspect of the card. Necro is a very limited card only to be played via rituals turn 1 for the win where as brainstorm is very general to be played by island. Also Brainstorm is still better because it can protect your hand and replace useless cards in your hand via a fetch. On an actual list of all real playable cards, brainstorm should at least be 2-4.
Clamp should be like 8th.
I think stanstill should definately be on the list, not only does the card make the opponent cry when it his the board because its essentially them +3 CA but it also makes opponents do stupid things.
Standstill should be in the list. I omitted it from mine. It's probably somewhere around 15 or 16.
Also, if Necropotence were unrestricted, it would not be a matter of it only being playable in decks that wanted to win through it. The only competitive decks would be those that ran 4x Necropotence. Period. Short of just winning, there is probably not a stronger turn 1 play in Vintage than ritual -> necropotence -> draw 12.
Regarding Skullclamp...
We know how to break it. Lots of creatures (like the ways it's used in Elves) or a recurring creature (like it's used with Bloodghast). It's nowhere near as useful in as many different kinds of decks as Brainstorm, or anywhere near as powerful as Yawgmoth's Bargain.
Brainstorm has never been a format definer. It's not even really a draw spell since it does not constitute card advantage. It's a powerful card, but here's a telling fact: Skullclamp is a must-counter (even in Vintage) whereas it's almost _never_ correct to use a counter on Brainstorm.
Skullclamp is the definition of a format definer. With the odd exception of Vintage, it has completely dominated every single format it has been a part of: Standard, Legacy, Extended..even Peasant. The reason it isn't banned in Vintage is just because it doesn't easily fit into any of the tier 1 decks - because none of them run creatures! You have to build around Skullclamp and in a creature-light format like Vintage, adding in a bunch of creatures isn't easy. In other formats, running creatures is not a particularly heavy deck constraint so adding in Skullclamp is painless.
Skullclamp has also suffered collateral hate from Null Rod, a card that is basically only run in Vintage.
Ante cards may as well not exist at this point in time given they are banned in every format including casual (at least I've never heard of anyone actually playing ante in casual), so Contract is out.
Ante cards may as well not exist at this point in time given they are banned in every format including casual (at least I've never heard of anyone actually playing ante in casual), so Contract is out.
I understand where your coming from, but Contract is the best draw spell ever printed.
if top, or even brainstorm, is included in the list then you have to compare the list to other card selection cards that don't generate actual card advantage. in which case, i'm nominating demonic consultation because it's the best search spell ever. but idk if that's really what this thread is about.
also, facepalm to whoever suggested council of the soratami.
If a card isnt restricted in Vintage it shouldn't be #3.
Some that should be in top 20 (not sure of order):
Standstill
Thirst for Knowledge
Gifts Ungiven
Dark Confidant
Frantic Search
Gush
Fact or Fiction
Ancestral Recall
Wheel of Fortune
Time Twister
Time Walk (Its 2CMC for a card+Untap, etc.)
Brainstorm
Top
Memory Jar
Necropotence
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Skullclamp
Library of Alexandria
Mystic Ramora
Stroke of Genius
If a card isnt restricted in Vintage it shouldn't be #3.
The restricted list is not a metric of absolute power level. No one in their right mind would say that Ponder is a more powerful card than Mishra's Workshop or Bazaar of Baghdad. Ponder is restricted because it just happened to be an enabler for very specific deck types that DCI judged to be too powerful.
yeah - obviously I disagree with you, John. Spam Warning!.....Amazing - even in a forum where posts don't count, there's spam. That proves that getting rid of the post-count won't help getting rid of spam! Thans for this excellent example! - Craven
I guess it largely depends on exactly what format you are using the draw effect. Howling Mine and Font of Mythos certainly have their place in the appropriate decks (ie Burn, Mill) and both are also great fun in multiplayer formats. Harmonize is a solid green draw spell. If Wheel of Fortune, Timetwister, and Diminishing Returns are being discussed, I think Time Spiral is only appropriate as well.
Another guy that I think has some serious potential as a late game card draw is Sphinx of Lost Truths.
well i dont know about the very top, though top should be in the TOP 5:)(i thought it was funny)
A few cards i think should get some mention:
Telling time: sure it doesnt draw a lot of cards, but it does let you decide your next drawn card. also, since it is an instant, it was usually played at the end of their turn, effectively drawing 2 cards for 2 mana. on top of that, if there was a card you did not like out of the 3 you saw, you could put it on the bottom of your deck(ie land). its only downfall is when you get 3 great cards and have a dillemma of what to put on the bottom.
Browbeat: I'm sure its already been mentioned but it can draw 3 for 3. in a red deck, any extra cards in hand is greatly appreciated. Its only draw back is that your opponent(s) have a chance to stop the card draw by taking 5 to the face....oh wait....
burning inquiry: as good as wheel of fortune is, i think this can be just as good. in standard at least, it works well with megrim (well when the deck existed). it can get rid of threats in an opponents hand(this is especially good against control), and it nets you 3 extra cards. most red decks dont run that much land to begin with, so there is a rather small chance of running into land.
what do you guys think of sign in blood on this list. i think it may have a chance of getting maybe 20. a lot of cards i suggested are rather new due to the fact that i started playing around onslaught where card draw wasn't that good. also, do jace and mine count as spells?
The people that play legacy / vintage always amuse me. They want their formats to be represented more. They want more tournaments. But when anyone suggests allowing more people access to the formats by reprinting cards, the same people start screaming about the reprint policy.
EDIT:
We know how to break it. Lots of creatures (like the ways it's used in Elves) or a recurring creature (like it's used with Bloodghast). It's nowhere near as useful in as many different kinds of decks as Brainstorm, or anywhere near as powerful as Yawgmoth's Bargain.
Trade Thread
Modern
RWGBurnGWR
GUInfectUG
GRTronRG
UWGifts TronWU
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RGWZooWGR
Legacy
BUWTinFinsWUB
UROmniTellRU
BURTESRUB
GElves!G
GBPSIBG
RGBelcherGR
UBRGWDredgeWGRBU
UBAffinityBU
RBurnR
Vintage
UBGDoomsdayGBU
0Martello Shops0
GElves!G
UBTPSBU
UBelcherU
0Dredge0
Agree, especially if Contract isn't at number 1. I'm not sure if yuo have actually ever casted it but i've played 5-color when it was still ante and trust me there was reason a terrible card like recoup was restricted in that format.
Standstill should be in the list. I omitted it from mine. It's probably somewhere around 15 or 16.
Also, if Necropotence were unrestricted, it would not be a matter of it only being playable in decks that wanted to win through it. The only competitive decks would be those that ran 4x Necropotence. Period. Short of just winning, there is probably not a stronger turn 1 play in Vintage than ritual -> necropotence -> draw 12.
Regarding Skullclamp...
Brainstorm has never been a format definer. It's not even really a draw spell since it does not constitute card advantage. It's a powerful card, but here's a telling fact: Skullclamp is a must-counter (even in Vintage) whereas it's almost _never_ correct to use a counter on Brainstorm.
Skullclamp is the definition of a format definer. With the odd exception of Vintage, it has completely dominated every single format it has been a part of: Standard, Legacy, Extended..even Peasant. The reason it isn't banned in Vintage is just because it doesn't easily fit into any of the tier 1 decks - because none of them run creatures! You have to build around Skullclamp and in a creature-light format like Vintage, adding in a bunch of creatures isn't easy. In other formats, running creatures is not a particularly heavy deck constraint so adding in Skullclamp is painless.
Skullclamp has also suffered collateral hate from Null Rod, a card that is basically only run in Vintage.
I understand where your coming from, but Contract is the best draw spell ever printed.
also, facepalm to whoever suggested council of the soratami.
Some that should be in top 20 (not sure of order):
Standstill
Thirst for Knowledge
Gifts Ungiven
Dark Confidant
Frantic Search
Gush
Fact or Fiction
Ancestral Recall
Wheel of Fortune
Time Twister
Time Walk (Its 2CMC for a card+Untap, etc.)
Brainstorm
Top
Memory Jar
Necropotence
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Skullclamp
Library of Alexandria
Mystic Ramora
Stroke of Genius
PTQ Top 8: 11/21/2009 Zendikar Sealed 4th
haha, i was running out of ideas
Gfast animals slow shildrenG
51-18-4 (retired as of 6-4-11)
The restricted list is not a metric of absolute power level. No one in their right mind would say that Ponder is a more powerful card than Mishra's Workshop or Bazaar of Baghdad. Ponder is restricted because it just happened to be an enabler for very specific deck types that DCI judged to be too powerful.
How is it not good? It is almost the same card as standstill.
Bazaar is very good in very Narrow circumstances. Ponder is less good but more versatile.
PTQ Top 8: 11/21/2009 Zendikar Sealed 4th
Mulldrifter would like a word with you.
A few I didn't see that I'll throw out there in no particular order....
Howling Mine
Font of Mythos
Time Spiral
Harmonize
I guess it largely depends on exactly what format you are using the draw effect. Howling Mine and Font of Mythos certainly have their place in the appropriate decks (ie Burn, Mill) and both are also great fun in multiplayer formats. Harmonize is a solid green draw spell. If Wheel of Fortune, Timetwister, and Diminishing Returns are being discussed, I think Time Spiral is only appropriate as well.
Another guy that I think has some serious potential as a late game card draw is Sphinx of Lost Truths.
Current decks:
Legacy: Zoo, Aggro Elves, The Gate, White Weenie, Red Deck Wins, and Merfolk. Currently building Solidarity.
Casual: Warp World Revolution and Old School Red-Green.
Standard: Ob-Nixilis Wave and Elves.
A few cards i think should get some mention:
Telling time: sure it doesnt draw a lot of cards, but it does let you decide your next drawn card. also, since it is an instant, it was usually played at the end of their turn, effectively drawing 2 cards for 2 mana. on top of that, if there was a card you did not like out of the 3 you saw, you could put it on the bottom of your deck(ie land). its only downfall is when you get 3 great cards and have a dillemma of what to put on the bottom.
Browbeat: I'm sure its already been mentioned but it can draw 3 for 3. in a red deck, any extra cards in hand is greatly appreciated. Its only draw back is that your opponent(s) have a chance to stop the card draw by taking 5 to the face....oh wait....
burning inquiry: as good as wheel of fortune is, i think this can be just as good. in standard at least, it works well with megrim (well when the deck existed). it can get rid of threats in an opponents hand(this is especially good against control), and it nets you 3 extra cards. most red decks dont run that much land to begin with, so there is a rather small chance of running into land.
what do you guys think of sign in blood on this list. i think it may have a chance of getting maybe 20. a lot of cards i suggested are rather new due to the fact that i started playing around onslaught where card draw wasn't that good. also, do jace and mine count as spells?
I only count vintage-legal cards. I do not count Artful Looter, Contract From Below, Double Take. You could argue that Double Take is the best draw-card spell.
Vintage:
1) Ancestral Recall
2) Yawgmoth's Bargain
3) Necropotence
4) Memory Jar
5) Bazaar of Baghdad
6) Gush
7) Timetwister
8) Sensei's Divining Top
9) Brainstorm
10) Library of Alexandria
11) Wheel of Fortune
12) Thirst For Knowledge
13) Ponder
14) Windfall
15) Street Wraith
16) Mystic Remora
17) Frantic Search
18) Serum Powder
19) Standstill
20) Skullclamp
Even though it is unusable, Thought Reflection deserves an honorable mention, because it doubles the effect of all the above cards =/
Standard:
1) Jace Beleren
2) Esper Charm
3) Howling Mine
4) Ponder
5) Font of Mythos
6) Mind Spring
7) Courier's Capsule
8) Vedalken Heretic
9) Covenant of Minds
10) Divination
10) Merfolk Looter
12) Scepter of Insight
13) Sphinx of Lost Truths
14) Skullmulcher
15) Kiss of the Amesha
16) Burning Inquiry
17) Soul's Majesty
18) Mesa Enchantress
19) Drastic Revelation
20) Etherium Astrolabe