I saw the preview for Lumra, and enters the battlefield appears to have been abbreviated to just "enters". Gah. How empty and bland and monotone. Are we even playing a fantasy game anymore? Does anyone feel Wizards dropped the ball not using the term "summon" for enters the battlefield?
It works for every permanent, and adds tremendous flavor and fantasy to the experience.
Personally, I would find "When Lumra get's summoned..." to close to "When you cast Lumra." So I would find it easy to be mixed up with a cast-trigger, not an enter-the-battlefield trigger.
It's just the term we already had shortened a bit, I don't get why this would be a problem now but not when it was introduced.
Also, an important reason why these template changes are made is to save space in the text box. Using 'summon' doesn't save enough, if any, space.
Also also, I strongly disagree that 'summon' works with all permanents (creatures certainly, planeswalkers maybe, but enchantments? Artifacts? Lands? Battles??? YMMV but 'summon' just doesn't feel right to use for those types.)
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Thou shalt not have others of the same Legendary before me Thou shalt not frame images with the modern card face Thou shalt not change rules in vain Remember the Reserved List to keep it holy Honor thy Slivers and the symmetry of their abilities Thou shalt not kill mana burn Thou shalt not sacrifice depth for accessibility Thou shalt not steal combat damage from the stack Thou shalt tell a story through thy cards All must be one
It's just the term we already had shortened a bit, I don't get why this would be a problem now but not when it was introduced.
Also, an important reason why these template changes are made is to save space in the text box. Using 'summon' doesn't save enough, if any, space.
Also also, I strongly disagree that 'summon' works with all permanents (creatures certainly, planeswalkers maybe, but enchantments? Artifacts? Lands? Battles??? YMMV but 'summon' just doesn't feel right to use for those types.)
I feel like "summon" would had been the perfect word for making tokens, it's more fitting and fantasy than create - but we already missed the train for that.
Still hope one day being a keyword or ability word for something cool.
I said the same thing about summon for tokens also. It would blend right in with ETB for both.
I don't think these changes are impossible for Wizards to make. If I was in-charge, I would declare this to the public as an "overhaul" or a "rollback" as it might contain a combination of both elements.
EDIT: There is also some text space saving if abbreviated;
When summoned,
But for coherence, it might be best to write the whole thing out;
When [name] is summoned,
Saving text space can actually become irresponsible when it costs the experience of fantasy from the game or at the expense of the players.
What I see as an issue with summon is that it works well with creatures, planeswalkers and artifacts but not enchantments or battles. If used for only creatures it feels wrong that it's not being used for the other obviously summoned permanents.
When they introduced dies it didn't have this problem as no other permanent type dies except for creatures.
What I see as an issue with summon is that it works well with creatures, planeswalkers and artifacts but not enchantments or battles. If used for only creatures it feels wrong that it's not being used for the other obviously summoned permanents.
Eh, the flavor is never perfect and should be never taked alone as a reason to make or not make something. Take for example food and blood. Artifacts tokens? the word "artifact" always gives the idea of something metallic or at least artificial, but here is applied on something made literally of flesh and blood or organic living things made from nature. You can always stretch the flavor a bit for better gameplay, thats not a problem. Flavor alone never cover all the cases anyway.
Another flavor dissonance is green not able to destroy living creatures flavorwise but can destroy planeswalkers that are exactly living creatures, anytime they do a "destroy target noncreature permanent" effect. Flavor fails are inevitable in this game. Gameplay patterns are more important.
Also is very weird flavorwise of why black can now destroy enchantments simply to balance the color for gameplay purposes, you must take a very high dose of abstraction to see how it can kill with the same spell both creatures and non living or tangible things.
What I see as an issue with summon is that it works well with creatures, planeswalkers and artifacts but not enchantments or battles. If used for only creatures it feels wrong that it's not being used for the other obviously summoned permanents.
Eh, the flavor is never perfect and should be never taked alone as a reason to make or not make something. Take for example food and blood. Artifacts tokens? the word "artifact" always gives the idea of something metallic or at least artificial, but here is applied on something made literally of flesh and blood or organic living things made from nature. You can always stretch the flavor a bit for better gameplay, thats not a problem. Flavor alone never cover all the cases anyway.
Another flavor dissonance is green not able to destroy living creatures flavorwise but can destroy planeswalkers that are exactly living creatures, anytime they do a "destroy target noncreature permanent" effect. Flavor fails are inevitable in this game. Gameplay patterns are more important.
Also is very weird flavorwise of why black can now destroy enchantments simply to balance the color for gameplay purposes, you must take a very high dose of abstraction to see how it can kill with the same spell both creatures and non living or tangible things.
Why are you talking about mechanics thumping flavor in a discussion exclusively about flavor? There isn't a mechanical issue here.
Why are you talking about mechanics thumping flavor in a discussion exclusively about flavor? There isn't a mechanical issue here.
Well you said that enchantments can't be "summoned", so excluding them for flavor reasons already makes a mechanical problem. Why enchantments should be excluded? With a bit flavor stretch they can also be "summoned", whatever that means mechanically, if it helps for a smoother gameplay. Too many exceptions for the sake of flavor always makes the gameplay clunkier and harder to grasp. My example with blood and artifacts is on point, if we should follow strictly the flavor they shouldn't be artifacts but they are for a better gameplay pattern. Or also about planeswalkers not treating as living beings mechanical wise in green despite being living being flavorwise.
Why are you talking about mechanics thumping flavor in a discussion exclusively about flavor? There isn't a mechanical issue here.
Well you said that enchantments can't be "summoned", so excluding them for flavor reasons already makes a mechanical problem. Why enchantments should be excluded? With a bit flavor stretch they can also be "summoned", whatever that means mechanically, if it helps for a smoother gameplay. Too many exceptions for the sake of flavor always makes the gameplay clunkier and harder to grasp. My example with blood and artifacts is on point, if we should follow strictly the flavor they shouldn't be artifacts but they are for a better gameplay pattern. Or also about planeswalkers not treating as living beings mechanical wise in green despite being living being flavorwise.
The reason why a flavor stretch has to be made for food is because it has to be a permanent type and of the available types artifact makes the most sense. We are discussing changing the word enters to summon for the sake of a more evocative feeling. There's no reason to stretch flavor when the only reason the change was being suggested was because it felt on flavor.
As for the idea that enchantments can be summoned. That takes quite a bit of stretching the imagination for the majority of them. Though it's an even larger stretch to say that battles are being summoned. Which was my point. Summon makes perfect sense for three(creatures, artifacts, planeswalkers) out of six permanent types and isn't a stretch for the fourth(land). But doesn't make any sense for the last two(enchantments, battles). If you want to argue that it's not a big deal to be used for a number of them but not the rest. That's a stance to take. The stance that flavor should bend to mechanics isn't an argument in favor of change. It's the state we're currently in. More flavorful alternatives are abandoned in favor of the simple enters.
The reason why a flavor stretch has to be made for food is because it has to be a permanent type
To be fair, no. Mechanically, they could choose to make food and blood in any direction they want, even something like energy (counters on players where you gain life each time you spend them) or why not, being also typeless (nothing in the rules of the games prevent that) or even other more abstract things (mechanics like monarch, city blessing, dungeon, initatitive, tempting the ring etc, shows that there's really no limit in that sense)
Though it's an even larger stretch to say that battles are being summoned. Which was my point.
Your point is completely subjective, other players (like me) wouldnt feel it wrong perhaps. As I said, Planeswalkers are living beings, but green can destroy them despite shouldnt be able to do it, flavor and philosophically wise. Mechanically works, so they don't change that. So also Enchantments and Battles can be summoned, if the price to pay is that doesnt sound 100% right flavorfully but it makes sense for all other card types, so it helps for a better and smoother gameplay.
More flavorful alternatives are abandoned in favor of the simple enters.
I never said that summon must be an alternative for enters, but that summon can be mechanically anything and in any case putting also enchantments inside them wouldnt be a big deal.
More flavorful alternatives are abandoned in favor of the simple enters.
I never said that summon must be an alternative for enters, but that summon can be mechanically anything and in any case putting also enchantments inside them wouldnt be a big deal.
That's what's being discussed! If you aren't joining the conversation then what the heck are you doing here!?!
More flavorful alternatives are abandoned in favor of the simple enters.
I never said that summon must be an alternative for enters, but that summon can be mechanically anything and in any case putting also enchantments inside them wouldnt be a big deal.
That's what's being discussed! If you aren't joining the conversation then what the heck are you doing here!?!
I am joining the discussion. I am just expanded my opinion about summon with a more general tought, not restricted only about as a sobstitute for enters. As I already explained my personal opinion is that would be overall a more evocative (literally) word than create for tokens. And in that case your objection would be even weaker since enchantments tokens are pretty rare (and even there I still find absolutely no problem at the idea to summon a shard or a mask) and battle tokens straight up non existing. If anything, it just make sense that something summoned from nothing is made only from pure magic, like an enchantment
It works for every permanent, and adds tremendous flavor and fantasy to the experience.
I personally feel let down once again.
Also, an important reason why these template changes are made is to save space in the text box. Using 'summon' doesn't save enough, if any, space.
Also also, I strongly disagree that 'summon' works with all permanents (creatures certainly, planeswalkers maybe, but enchantments? Artifacts? Lands? Battles??? YMMV but 'summon' just doesn't feel right to use for those types.)
Thou shalt not frame images with the modern card face
Thou shalt not change rules in vain
Remember the Reserved List to keep it holy
Honor thy Slivers and the symmetry of their abilities
Thou shalt not kill mana burn
Thou shalt not sacrifice depth for accessibility
Thou shalt not steal combat damage from the stack
Thou shalt tell a story through thy cards
All must be one
I feel like "summon" would had been the perfect word for making tokens, it's more fitting and fantasy than create - but we already missed the train for that.
Still hope one day being a keyword or ability word for something cool.
I don't think these changes are impossible for Wizards to make. If I was in-charge, I would declare this to the public as an "overhaul" or a "rollback" as it might contain a combination of both elements.
EDIT: There is also some text space saving if abbreviated;
When summoned,
But for coherence, it might be best to write the whole thing out;
When [name] is summoned,
Saving text space can actually become irresponsible when it costs the experience of fantasy from the game or at the expense of the players.
When they introduced dies it didn't have this problem as no other permanent type dies except for creatures.
Eh, the flavor is never perfect and should be never taked alone as a reason to make or not make something. Take for example food and blood. Artifacts tokens? the word "artifact" always gives the idea of something metallic or at least artificial, but here is applied on something made literally of flesh and blood or organic living things made from nature. You can always stretch the flavor a bit for better gameplay, thats not a problem. Flavor alone never cover all the cases anyway.
Another flavor dissonance is green not able to destroy living creatures flavorwise but can destroy planeswalkers that are exactly living creatures, anytime they do a "destroy target noncreature permanent" effect. Flavor fails are inevitable in this game. Gameplay patterns are more important.
Also is very weird flavorwise of why black can now destroy enchantments simply to balance the color for gameplay purposes, you must take a very high dose of abstraction to see how it can kill with the same spell both creatures and non living or tangible things.
Well you said that enchantments can't be "summoned", so excluding them for flavor reasons already makes a mechanical problem. Why enchantments should be excluded? With a bit flavor stretch they can also be "summoned", whatever that means mechanically, if it helps for a smoother gameplay. Too many exceptions for the sake of flavor always makes the gameplay clunkier and harder to grasp. My example with blood and artifacts is on point, if we should follow strictly the flavor they shouldn't be artifacts but they are for a better gameplay pattern. Or also about planeswalkers not treating as living beings mechanical wise in green despite being living being flavorwise.
As for the idea that enchantments can be summoned. That takes quite a bit of stretching the imagination for the majority of them. Though it's an even larger stretch to say that battles are being summoned. Which was my point. Summon makes perfect sense for three(creatures, artifacts, planeswalkers) out of six permanent types and isn't a stretch for the fourth(land). But doesn't make any sense for the last two(enchantments, battles). If you want to argue that it's not a big deal to be used for a number of them but not the rest. That's a stance to take. The stance that flavor should bend to mechanics isn't an argument in favor of change. It's the state we're currently in. More flavorful alternatives are abandoned in favor of the simple enters.
To be fair, no. Mechanically, they could choose to make food and blood in any direction they want, even something like energy (counters on players where you gain life each time you spend them) or why not, being also typeless (nothing in the rules of the games prevent that) or even other more abstract things (mechanics like monarch, city blessing, dungeon, initatitive, tempting the ring etc, shows that there's really no limit in that sense)
Your point is completely subjective, other players (like me) wouldnt feel it wrong perhaps. As I said, Planeswalkers are living beings, but green can destroy them despite shouldnt be able to do it, flavor and philosophically wise. Mechanically works, so they don't change that. So also Enchantments and Battles can be summoned, if the price to pay is that doesnt sound 100% right flavorfully but it makes sense for all other card types, so it helps for a better and smoother gameplay.
I never said that summon must be an alternative for enters, but that summon can be mechanically anything and in any case putting also enchantments inside them wouldnt be a big deal.
I am joining the discussion. I am just expanded my opinion about summon with a more general tought, not restricted only about as a sobstitute for enters. As I already explained my personal opinion is that would be overall a more evocative (literally) word than create for tokens. And in that case your objection would be even weaker since enchantments tokens are pretty rare (and even there I still find absolutely no problem at the idea to summon a shard or a mask) and battle tokens straight up non existing. If anything, it just make sense that something summoned from nothing is made only from pure magic, like an enchantment