Well leaving Standard, Modern, and Pioneer paper formats was never soo easy. Thanks WotC now i will have more money to invest in other games and time to continue my dead games and boardgame library.
Well leaving Standard, Modern, and Pioneer paper formats was never soo easy. Thanks WotC now i will have more money to invest in other games and time to continue my dead games and boardgame library.
If I may ask, why? Was this the straw that broke the camel's back or is the situation with Nielsen on its own enough to make you drop the game?
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Well leaving Standard, Modern, and Pioneer paper formats was never soo easy. Thanks WotC now i will have more money to invest in other games and time to continue my dead games and boardgame library.
If I may ask, why? Was this the straw that broke the camel's back or is the situation with Nielsen on its own enough to make you drop the game?
Not dropping the game, just not buying new products. Probably not selling my entire collection but if i can will not buy new products (at least in the same rate as i did before) and the ones i buy (eventual draft/pre release) i will try to sell as quick as i can. In resume no more 4 boxes for each new set will just open boosters for draft and avoid buying new cards from the seccondary market.
I liked Nielsen as an Artist and as a person bought some playmats from her and after this will buy more. I m ok with WotC banning old cards for racist content, i m ok with WotC having a inclussion discuss. I m not ok with WotC droping an artist for what i can only call "assumption of guilty by association" spread by people that would openly do what many call "bullying" to said artist.
Sincerily hope that WotC starts promoting black and trans artists into the game, contracting those for future card art, otherwise all those HR moves are just lies for views-likes done by one of the whitest company ever (with lots of cis people who think they know better and can judge everyone and everything).
Well leaving Standard, Modern, and Pioneer paper formats was never soo easy. Thanks WotC now i will have more money to invest in other games and time to continue my dead games and boardgame library.
If I may ask, why? Was this the straw that broke the camel's back or is the situation with Nielsen on its own enough to make you drop the game?
Not dropping the game, just not buying new products. Probably not selling my entire collection but if i can will not buy new products (at least in the same rate as i did before) and the ones i buy (eventual draft/pre release) i will try to sell as quick as i can. In resume no more 4 boxes for each new set will just open boosters for draft and avoid buying new cards from the seccondary market.
I liked Nielsen as an Artist and as a person bought some playmats from her and after this will buy more. I m ok with WotC banning old cards for racist content, i m ok with WotC having a inclussion discuss. I m not ok with WotC droping an artist for what i can only call "assumption of guilty by association" spread by people that would openly do what many call "bullying" to said artist.
I don't agree with that assessment, I think the HipstersoftheCoast article does a good job of outlining how Nielsen's brand/public image was tarnished, though I can appreciate this move turning off her fans. I will say that I don't support harassing Nielsen. For a start, if she does have *****ty political views and believe conspiracy theories, that's not going to make her consider other perspectives. We can hold people accountable without harassment.
Sincerily hope that WotC starts promoting black and trans artists into the game, contracting those for future card art, otherwise all those HR moves are just lies for views-likes done by one of the whitest company ever (with lots of cis people who think they know better and can judge everyone and everything).
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Modern day cancel culture is incredibly ironic when viewed through the lens of history. In many way it resembles the McCarthy-era communist witch hunts, trying to blacklist anyone outside of the accepted norms. Consider this quote by Edward Murrow (the reporter most often credited with standing up to Senator McCarthy):
If none of us ever read a book that was "dangerous," had a friend who was "different," or joined an organization that advocated "change," we would all be just the kind of people Joe McCarthy wants.
Replace "Joe McCarthy" with "modern cancel culture," and you end up with a statement about the absolute conformity required by hypocrites who demand exclusion in the name of inclusion.
The funny thing is I have no dog in this fight - I believe WOTC has just as much right to end the relationship as I believe Nielsen has the right to believe or support whatever views she wants, whether I agree with her or not.
But then I see the highly judgmental people in this thread jump to call her a "throwback," a "Troglodyte," and "an awful person" with a "twisted little heart." Ad hominem attacks, really? And you dare claim moral superiority? Irony at its finest.
It's this same crowd who demanded the removal of an artist not because of her art but because of her personal life. Are your lives perfect? Is there nothing that anyone else would take issue with? How would you like to be publicly harassed and name called? Or your employer petitioned to fire you? How about having your employer, rather than quietly letting you go, making an announcement to the world in order to appease the angry mobs with torches and pitchforks?
Have a little human decency and compassion. And before you say she doesn't deserve it, remember you're the ones claiming moral superiority; maybe you should act like it.
The political environment of today has become so polarized that everyone seems to vilify anyone on the other side of an issue. Maybe we should take a step back and remember we're all human.
It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was Us, then what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
--- Terry Pratchett
Modern day cancel culture is incredibly ironic when viewed through the lens of history. In many way it resembles the McCarthy-era communist witch hunts, trying to blacklist anyone outside of the accepted norms. Consider this quote by Edward Murrow (the reporter most often credited with standing up to Senator McCarthy):
If none of us ever read a book that was "dangerous," had a friend who was "different," or joined an organization that advocated "change," we would all be just the kind of people Joe McCarthy wants.
Replace "Joe McCarthy" with "modern cancel culture," and you end up with a statement about the absolute conformity required by hypocrites who demand exclusion in the name of inclusion.
The funny thing is I have no dog in this fight - I believe WOTC has just as much right to end the relationship as I believe Nielsen has the right to believe or support whatever views she wants, whether I agree with her or not.
But then I see the highly judgmental people in this thread jump to call her a "throwback," a "Troglodyte," and "an awful person" with a "twisted little heart." Ad hominem attacks, really? And you dare claim moral superiority? Irony at its finest.
It's this same crowd who demanded the removal of an artist not because of her art but because of her personal life. Are your lives perfect? Is there nothing that anyone else would take issue with? How would you like to be publicly harassed and name called? Or your employer petitioned to fire you? How about having your employer, rather than quietly letting you go, making an announcement to the world in order to appease the angry mobs with torches and pitchforks?
Have a little human decency and compassion. And before you say she doesn't deserve it, remember you're the ones claiming moral superiority; maybe you should act like it.
The political environment of today has become so polarized that everyone seems to vilify anyone on the other side of an issue. Maybe we should take a step back and remember we're all human.
It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was Us, then what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
--- Terry Pratchett
Sorry I won't treat an antisemitic with any compassion when they don't respect my personhood. Liking antisemitic conspiracies and propergnadia is what let Hitler and the Nazis rise up to power in the first place. It wasn't all book burning prison camps, but agreeing, spreading and not fighting back that ideas that lead into actions that made nazis.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Sorry I won't treat an antisemitic with any compassion when they don't respect my personhood. Liking antisemitic conspiracies and propergnadia is what let Hitler and the Nazis rise up to power in the first place. It wasn't all book burning prison camps, but agreeing, spreading and not fighting back that ideas that lead into actions that made nazis.
And yet, by dehumanizing the Other, you have become the very thing you claim to fight.
What is the current evidence that she is anti-Semitic? I am genuinely asking this question. I would like to know. Not something that she was linked to by a "like" on some social media site years ago either. I would like to know current evidence and actions if they are there. If there is legitimate evidence I would like to hear it. What I saw in the link to the Hipsters article is not enough. If she can be proven to be currently so, I will admire the artwork she made, but will not purchase another card with her work on it. I want hard proof. I do not judge lightly. Hearsay like she may harbor thoughts of X or Y won't do it. Likes of certain social media members that have been erased/undone/unliked are not enough. Concrete evidence I will listen, anything else won't budge me an inch. Attitudes change, people change. WotC has every right to pick and choose, but again I don't have to like it. Facts and not feelings so I may make an accurate decision on her character. It will not change my view on her artwork. It may sadden me if I find hatefulness, but her work brightens the artistic part of my soul.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Sorry I won't treat an antisemitic with any compassion when they don't respect my personhood. Liking antisemitic conspiracies and propergnadia is what let Hitler and the Nazis rise up to power in the first place. It wasn't all book burning prison camps, but agreeing, spreading and not fighting back that ideas that lead into actions that made nazis.
And yet, by dehumanizing the Other, you have become the very thing you claim to fight.
No, refusing to tolerate antisemitism doesn't make you a Nazi. Or as bad as one, or however you'd like to frame it. I think a quote from Karl Popper will help clarify it, and even pivot things back to Nielsen herself:
Less well known [than other paradoxes Popper discusses] is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.—In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant.
To be blunt: not all perspectives merit equal weight or attention. Some should be challenged, some should be explored in dialogue, some should be educated about to limit its spread, and a select few need to be removed from the public discourse. Equating all perspectives really only serves to empower the intolerant and endanger the vulnerable. Which is why I find it disconcerting that nuanced conversations about cancel culture are seemingly rare and people largely have absolutist views on it. It's a phenomenon borne from disenfranchised groups to speak truth to power when they lack the institutional power to do much else, which is why the comparisons to McCathyism fall apart for me. Like any tool, it can be misused (and given the social dynamics at play, including social status, ingroup-outgroup relationships, and systemic inequality, it's unsurprising that misuse occurs), though I don't believe that's the actual source of much of the pushback against cancel culture. I don't think the fear is being held accountable unfairly, I think it's a resistance to accountability in the first place.
How does this relate to Nielsen? Accountability is important if we're going to have a meaningful conversation about how tolerant our society is, and in her case accountability meant having her conduct questioned and losing a job when her weak response to that questioning (and a degree of continued questionable behavior) began eroding her brand. If there's a 'target' of cancel culture here at all, it's WotC, and even with them, there was not any significant call for a boycott. They simply saw that an artist tied to a flagship brand was drawing controversy and took steps to ensure they weren't implicated in it because at the end of the day it all comes back to accountability and WotC preferred to upset some now rather than risk the bigger public image battle should their business practices (in this case, continuing to platform someone with a controversial reputation) come into question. We can debate how likely it was that Nielsen's conduct would blow back on WotC, but obviously they considered it enough of a risk to cut ties with her now.
What is the current evidence that she is anti-Semitic? I am genuinely asking this question. I would like to know. Not something that she was linked to by a "like" on some social media site years ago either. I would like to know current evidence and actions if they are there. If there is legitimate evidence I would like to hear it. What I saw in the link to the Hipsters article is not enough. If she can be proven to be currently so, I will admire the artwork she made, but will not purchase another card with her work on it. I want hard proof. I do not judge lightly. Hearsay like she may harbor thoughts of X or Y won't do it. Likes of certain social media members that have been erased/undone/unliked are not enough. Concrete evidence I will listen, anything else won't budge me an inch. Attitudes change, people change. WotC has every right to pick and choose, but again I don't have to like it. Facts and not feelings so I may make an accurate decision on her character. It will not change my view on her artwork. It may sadden me if I find hatefulness, but her work brightens the artistic part of my soul.
she deleted everything immediately after it was called to light. a lot of it is very difficult to track down. most of it also happened years ago which certainly doesn't help either. there was a very big to-do about it when it was all first revealed, and ultimately wotc did nothing while the community ended up just glossing over it as its done so many times in the past.
regardless, wotc is not obligated to employ her, and they haven't used her art in awhile. this is more or less just an official statement of why and why she won't find work with them again. its accountability, just like every other brand and industry does all the time.
like i've said in a few different places, wotc and the community knew about these things for years and didn't do anything. society changed to emphasize these issues, and now they're finally taking a stance. honestly they should've taken it 20-25 years ago. this game is old, and so are the issues being tackled right now.
its a shock to a lot of people, but to just as many it isn't and was a long time coming.
What is the current evidence that she is anti-Semitic? I am genuinely asking this question. I would like to know. Not something that she was linked to by a "like" on some social media site years ago either. I would like to know current evidence and actions if they are there. If there is legitimate evidence I would like to hear it. What I saw in the link to the Hipsters article is not enough. If she can be proven to be currently so, I will admire the artwork she made, but will not purchase another card with her work on it. I want hard proof. I do not judge lightly. Hearsay like she may harbor thoughts of X or Y won't do it. Likes of certain social media members that have been erased/undone/unliked are not enough. Concrete evidence I will listen, anything else won't budge me an inch. Attitudes change, people change. WotC has every right to pick and choose, but again I don't have to like it. Facts and not feelings so I may make an accurate decision on her character. It will not change my view on her artwork. It may sadden me if I find hatefulness, but her work brightens the artistic part of my soul.
she deleted everything immediately after it was called to light. a lot of it is very difficult to track down. most of it also happened years ago which certainly doesn't help either. there was a very big to-do about it when it was all first revealed, and ultimately wotc did nothing while the community ended up just glossing over it as its done so many times in the past.
regardless, wotc is not obligated to employ her, and they haven't used her art in awhile. this is more or less just an official statement of why and why she won't find work with them again. its accountability, just like every other brand and industry does all the time.
like i've said in a few different places, wotc and the community knew about these things for years and didn't do anything. society changed to emphasize these issues, and now they're finally taking a stance. honestly they should've taken it 20-25 years ago. this game is old, and so are the issues being tackled right now.
its a shock to a lot of people, but to just as many it isn't and was a long time coming.
So there is no current evidence then. I have to take her past deletions at face value as mistakes she made on her part and corrected them. Cancel culture continues sadly. Forgiveness seems to be character trait that much of society has lost.
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
What is the current evidence that she is anti-Semitic? I am genuinely asking this question. I would like to know. Not something that she was linked to by a "like" on some social media site years ago either. I would like to know current evidence and actions if they are there. If there is legitimate evidence I would like to hear it. What I saw in the link to the Hipsters article is not enough. If she can be proven to be currently so, I will admire the artwork she made, but will not purchase another card with her work on it. I want hard proof. I do not judge lightly. Hearsay like she may harbor thoughts of X or Y won't do it. Likes of certain social media members that have been erased/undone/unliked are not enough. Concrete evidence I will listen, anything else won't budge me an inch. Attitudes change, people change. WotC has every right to pick and choose, but again I don't have to like it. Facts and not feelings so I may make an accurate decision on her character. It will not change my view on her artwork. It may sadden me if I find hatefulness, but her work brightens the artistic part of my soul.
she deleted everything immediately after it was called to light. a lot of it is very difficult to track down. most of it also happened years ago which certainly doesn't help either. there was a very big to-do about it when it was all first revealed, and ultimately wotc did nothing while the community ended up just glossing over it as its done so many times in the past.
regardless, wotc is not obligated to employ her, and they haven't used her art in awhile. this is more or less just an official statement of why and why she won't find work with them again. its accountability, just like every other brand and industry does all the time.
like i've said in a few different places, wotc and the community knew about these things for years and didn't do anything. society changed to emphasize these issues, and now they're finally taking a stance. honestly they should've taken it 20-25 years ago. this game is old, and so are the issues being tackled right now.
its a shock to a lot of people, but to just as many it isn't and was a long time coming.
So there is no current evidence then. I have to take her past deletions at face value as mistakes she made on her part and corrected them. Cancel culture continues sadly. Forgiveness seems to be character trait that much of society has lost.
a lack of evidence meeting your standards does not negate the argument against discontinuing the use of her art on cards. this is exactly why she deleted so much of it when she was found out. its a real shame it actually worked.
i should rephrase that. they haven't been using her art for awhile. that's not new. a public statement on why is.
So there is no current evidence then. I have to take her past deletions at face value as mistakes she made on her part and corrected them. Cancel culture continues sadly. Forgiveness seems to be character trait that much of society has lost.
How recent does it need to be? If it's just after the original racist tweets and what not was brought to light followed by her response. Then a year later(a year ago now) she donated art prints to a far-right conspiracy group. If you need more recent. Then all I can say is its probably a matter of time. People do on rare occasions change but when struck they usually hide rather than reflect.
What is the current evidence that she is anti-Semitic? I am genuinely asking this question. I would like to know. Not something that she was linked to by a "like" on some social media site years ago either. I would like to know current evidence and actions if they are there. If there is legitimate evidence I would like to hear it. What I saw in the link to the Hipsters article is not enough. If she can be proven to be currently so, I will admire the artwork she made, but will not purchase another card with her work on it. I want hard proof. I do not judge lightly. Hearsay like she may harbor thoughts of X or Y won't do it. Likes of certain social media members that have been erased/undone/unliked are not enough. Concrete evidence I will listen, anything else won't budge me an inch. Attitudes change, people change. WotC has every right to pick and choose, but again I don't have to like it. Facts and not feelings so I may make an accurate decision on her character. It will not change my view on her artwork. It may sadden me if I find hatefulness, but her work brightens the artistic part of my soul.
she deleted everything immediately after it was called to light. a lot of it is very difficult to track down. most of it also happened years ago which certainly doesn't help either. there was a very big to-do about it when it was all first revealed, and ultimately wotc did nothing while the community ended up just glossing over it as its done so many times in the past.
regardless, wotc is not obligated to employ her, and they haven't used her art in awhile. this is more or less just an official statement of why and why she won't find work with them again. its accountability, just like every other brand and industry does all the time.
like i've said in a few different places, wotc and the community knew about these things for years and didn't do anything. society changed to emphasize these issues, and now they're finally taking a stance. honestly they should've taken it 20-25 years ago. this game is old, and so are the issues being tackled right now.
its a shock to a lot of people, but to just as many it isn't and was a long time coming.
So there is no current evidence then. I have to take her past deletions at face value as mistakes she made on her part and corrected them. Cancel culture continues sadly. Forgiveness seems to be character trait that much of society has lost.
a lack of evidence meeting your standards does not negate the argument against discontinuing the use of her art on cards. this is exactly why she deleted so much of it when she was found out. its a real shame it actually worked.
I never said it did negate it. It fulfills what I need to make a personal judgement at this time. I don't go along with the throng and their mob mentality, I take it case by case. More recent and actual evidence against her and I may change my mind. People can feel in the heat of the moment and regret what they did shortly after. Its human nature. This may have been the case or may not. I do feel accountability is very important. As to where repentance overcomes accountability I can only judge on the facts I see. I see no shame in repentance if that was what happened, maybe not. "Too err is human, to forgive divine." -Alexander Pope. I can understand if some are not willing to forgive. Personally I can only forgive WotC so much, a point will come when I cannot if they continue the path they have chosen. Much I agree with, much I don't at this point.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Well would you look at all these philosophical dissertations over a few clicks on an artist’s personal Twitter. How harmed you must all be by such audacity.
So there is no current evidence then. I have to take her past deletions at face value as mistakes she made on her part and corrected them. Cancel culture continues sadly. Forgiveness seems to be character trait that much of society has lost.
Forgiveness is important, what society has largely lost is a commitment to earning it. Why presume that since she hasn't done anything controversial in public for a year that her views have changed? Is there evidence of that change?
So there is no current evidence then. I have to take her past deletions at face value as mistakes she made on her part and corrected them. Cancel culture continues sadly. Forgiveness seems to be character trait that much of society has lost.
How recent does it need to be? If it's just after the original racist tweets and what not was brought to light followed by her response. Then a year later(a year ago now) she donated art prints to a far-right conspiracy group. If you need more recent. Then all I can say is its probably a matter of time. People do on rare occasions change but when struck they usually hide rather than reflect.
I took a look at some of the stuff they claimed was "racist". One meme had some racist imagery on it (both sides) so I can agree there. Others were just conspiracy ramblings. As for the YouTube group I watched some of their material, didn't see anything racist on it. Again just conspiracy babble and a dislike for George Soros. Must have not seen this anti-Semitic material.
You do all know that this line of talk is going to get this thread locked right?
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
No, refusing to tolerate antisemitism doesn't make you a Nazi. Or as bad as one, or however you'd like to frame it.
Never thought it did. But saying "I won't treat a [INSERT LABEL] with any compassion" is the first step toward becoming the intolerant, non-compassionate type who dehumanizes others. Is that not sinking to their level? Why is it any better? Because you find "justification"? Pretty sure that's what the other side does, too.
"as long as we can counter them by rational argument"
If only everyone would try. You may notice I haven't sided with WOTC or Nielsen here. All I've done is denounce the self-righteous name-callers and people who admit they withhold compassion. I would have stayed out entirely (and probably should have) if people had stuck to rational argument. But I really can't stand hypocrisy.
not all perspectives merit equal weight or attention. Some should be challenged, some should be explored in dialogue, some should be educated about to limit its spread, and a select few need to be removed from the public discourse.
I was with you until the very last point. I agree that not all perspectives are equal and that they should be challenged, explored, or educated. But removing perspectives from the public discourse - what do you mean by that? Is that the same thing as turning into the thought police? Is it punishing people for their thoughts rather than their actions? If so, I can't agree with that. Let me know if I've misinterpreted it.
Do you know the quote "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"? I believe in freedom of speech. Unfortunately, not all speech is uplifting or unifying. Sometimes speech is a denouncement of the actions or words of another. Some speech is meant to challenge certain perspectives or to make others think about their actions. But trying to remove the right of expression because you don't agree with an expression is wrong.
(And here I need to clarify that this isn't what I think is happening in the case of WOTC vs. Nielsen - as I said, I believe they have the right to end the relationship just as she has the right to whatever she believes. The above comment is just a reflection of the more general conversation on perspective and expression.)
How does this relate to Nielsen? Accountability is important if we're going to have a meaningful conversation about how tolerant our society is, and in her case accountability meant having her conduct questioned and losing a job when her weak response to that questioning (and a degree of continued questionable behavior) began eroding her brand.
I agree with all of this. Freedom of expression does not exempt one from the consequences. WOTC is within their rights to decide who or what they do not wish to be associated with. And people could have accepted that and moved on.
But, and finally bringing it back around to my initial post, does name-calling really add to the conversation? Is calling her a "throwback," a "Troglodyte," and "an awful person" with a "twisted little heart" part of rational argument? That is what I reacted to. I asked for people to behave civilly, and the first reply I got was a "justified" refusal to extend compassion to another human being because the "justified" individual believes that person is misguided.
That is the problem I see with cancel culture - it rarely seeks to build up, only to destroy. It looks to remove rather than to educate.
That is the problem I see with cancel culture - it rarely seeks to build up, only to destroy. It looks to remove rather than to educate.
Agreed and well said. But this is where I need to let it go as it will no longer be mentally healthy for me to continue. I have said my piece, put out my opinions and ideas. Possibly agree to disagree and move on for the time. I am going to leave it with a very fitting card in my estimation.
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
It is not the fault of Terese Nielsen or of WotC that we won't get further artwork from her on our cards. It's the fault of Outrage Culture. Everyone has to be outraged about something or another, especially on Twitter. Nielsen is entitled to her beliefs and WotC is entitled to make good money decisions. Maybe a bunch of dumb people screaming about things on Twitter has a lot of weight now. I wonder if the world will grow up and grow toughskinned to this sort of thing? Or if the real trials are yet to come.
In other news, Noah Bradley is a total creepy scumbag who apparently goes around giving out sex invitation cards, and his wife is a cuck who supports him, and that's much more upsetting to me than Terese Nielsen liking goofy politics. By all accounts she's a very sweet and kind woman, how many of you have moms or aunts who have weird political or religious beliefs?
It is not the fault of Terese Nielsen or of WotC that we won't get further artwork from her on our cards. It's the fault of Outrage Culture. Everyone has to be outraged about something or another, especially on Twitter.
Interesting that the frame you're using here assumes there's no justification for any outrage in this or evidently any case.
Maybe a bunch of dumb people screaming about things on Twitter has a lot of weight now. I wonder if the world will grow up and grow toughskinned to this sort of thing? Or if the real trials are yet to come.
So you perceive the issue being that people who engage in call-out/call-in and/or canceling behaviors are some combination of dumb, immature, and/or thin-skinned? Does that not strike you as a particularly broad brush to paint people with?
I'm not even sure what I've seen in the response to Nielsen's social media behavior could be described as outrage, really. At most intense, it was disdain for her opinions and a reluctance to let their money in part go towards benefiting Nielsen. I'm sure there were the usual fringe histrionics, probably some idiotic threats, but my perception is that that doesn't really describe the overall mentality of people who were speaking against Nielsen. Although, I'm talking about the contemporary response and not the response in 1018-2019 which I was not paying attention to outside of lurking here.
In other news, Noah Bradley is a total creepy scumbag who apparently goes around giving out sex invitation cards, and his wife is a cuck who supports him, and that's much more upsetting to me than Terese Nielsen liking goofy politics.
The use of 'cuck' and framing Nielsen's politics as 'goofy' aside, we can walk and chew gum at the same time. Bradley and Nielsen can both have tarnished brands for different reasons, and their responses to controversy can carry different consequences. I read Bradley's acknowledgement and apology, and it was far more compelling than anything Nielsen said in defense of herself over two years, if nothing else.
By all accounts she's a very sweet and kind woman, how many of you have moms or aunts who have weird political or religious beliefs?
Yes, some of their beliefs aren't just 'weird' they are openly bigoted and hateful, and I limit my interactions with them to restrict how much their beliefs can impact me. And I breathe a sigh of relief when they get denied opportunities to share their beliefs or when they face consequences for what they say. Kinda like Nielsen.
It's not like WotC didn't try to give her a chance to at least publicly clean up her nonsense. A lesser artist would have been cut immediately for liking some of the ***** she liked on Twitter. Wizards gave her the chance to not **** up on social media for a year or so and apologize, but she gave a kind of crappy apology and continued to associate with the far right and conspiracy theorists who peddle in racist bull*****. Had she just not done that, she'd be back. Hell, had WotC not become embroiled in its own controversies surrounding it's corporate culture,they would have probably still found a way to work her back in.
But, unlucky for her, people want WotC to be less *****ty, and her continued palling around with *****ty people went against that. Too bad,so sad. I'll miss her incredible artwork, but it's her own fault.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
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If I may ask, why? Was this the straw that broke the camel's back or is the situation with Nielsen on its own enough to make you drop the game?
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Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
Call to Mind
Sealed Fate
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Not dropping the game, just not buying new products. Probably not selling my entire collection but if i can will not buy new products (at least in the same rate as i did before) and the ones i buy (eventual draft/pre release) i will try to sell as quick as i can. In resume no more 4 boxes for each new set will just open boosters for draft and avoid buying new cards from the seccondary market.
I liked Nielsen as an Artist and as a person bought some playmats from her and after this will buy more. I m ok with WotC banning old cards for racist content, i m ok with WotC having a inclussion discuss. I m not ok with WotC droping an artist for what i can only call "assumption of guilty by association" spread by people that would openly do what many call "bullying" to said artist.
Sincerily hope that WotC starts promoting black and trans artists into the game, contracting those for future card art, otherwise all those HR moves are just lies for views-likes done by one of the whitest company ever (with lots of cis people who think they know better and can judge everyone and everything).
I don't agree with that assessment, I think the HipstersoftheCoast article does a good job of outlining how Nielsen's brand/public image was tarnished, though I can appreciate this move turning off her fans. I will say that I don't support harassing Nielsen. For a start, if she does have *****ty political views and believe conspiracy theories, that's not going to make her consider other perspectives. We can hold people accountable without harassment.
That I certainly agree with.
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Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
Force of Will take your pick which one.
Swords to Plowshares
Lifelink
Hanna, Ship's Navigator
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
The funny thing is I have no dog in this fight - I believe WOTC has just as much right to end the relationship as I believe Nielsen has the right to believe or support whatever views she wants, whether I agree with her or not.
But then I see the highly judgmental people in this thread jump to call her a "throwback," a "Troglodyte," and "an awful person" with a "twisted little heart." Ad hominem attacks, really? And you dare claim moral superiority? Irony at its finest.
It's this same crowd who demanded the removal of an artist not because of her art but because of her personal life. Are your lives perfect? Is there nothing that anyone else would take issue with? How would you like to be publicly harassed and name called? Or your employer petitioned to fire you? How about having your employer, rather than quietly letting you go, making an announcement to the world in order to appease the angry mobs with torches and pitchforks?
Have a little human decency and compassion. And before you say she doesn't deserve it, remember you're the ones claiming moral superiority; maybe you should act like it.
The political environment of today has become so polarized that everyone seems to vilify anyone on the other side of an issue. Maybe we should take a step back and remember we're all human.
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
Because I have more decks than fit in a signature
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Sorry I won't treat an antisemitic with any compassion when they don't respect my personhood. Liking antisemitic conspiracies and propergnadia is what let Hitler and the Nazis rise up to power in the first place. It wasn't all book burning prison camps, but agreeing, spreading and not fighting back that ideas that lead into actions that made nazis.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
Because I have more decks than fit in a signature
Useful Resources:
MTGSalvation tags
EDHREC
ManabaseCrafter
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
No, refusing to tolerate antisemitism doesn't make you a Nazi. Or as bad as one, or however you'd like to frame it. I think a quote from Karl Popper will help clarify it, and even pivot things back to Nielsen herself:
To be blunt: not all perspectives merit equal weight or attention. Some should be challenged, some should be explored in dialogue, some should be educated about to limit its spread, and a select few need to be removed from the public discourse. Equating all perspectives really only serves to empower the intolerant and endanger the vulnerable. Which is why I find it disconcerting that nuanced conversations about cancel culture are seemingly rare and people largely have absolutist views on it. It's a phenomenon borne from disenfranchised groups to speak truth to power when they lack the institutional power to do much else, which is why the comparisons to McCathyism fall apart for me. Like any tool, it can be misused (and given the social dynamics at play, including social status, ingroup-outgroup relationships, and systemic inequality, it's unsurprising that misuse occurs), though I don't believe that's the actual source of much of the pushback against cancel culture. I don't think the fear is being held accountable unfairly, I think it's a resistance to accountability in the first place.
How does this relate to Nielsen? Accountability is important if we're going to have a meaningful conversation about how tolerant our society is, and in her case accountability meant having her conduct questioned and losing a job when her weak response to that questioning (and a degree of continued questionable behavior) began eroding her brand. If there's a 'target' of cancel culture here at all, it's WotC, and even with them, there was not any significant call for a boycott. They simply saw that an artist tied to a flagship brand was drawing controversy and took steps to ensure they weren't implicated in it because at the end of the day it all comes back to accountability and WotC preferred to upset some now rather than risk the bigger public image battle should their business practices (in this case, continuing to platform someone with a controversial reputation) come into question. We can debate how likely it was that Nielsen's conduct would blow back on WotC, but obviously they considered it enough of a risk to cut ties with her now.
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Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
she deleted everything immediately after it was called to light. a lot of it is very difficult to track down. most of it also happened years ago which certainly doesn't help either. there was a very big to-do about it when it was all first revealed, and ultimately wotc did nothing while the community ended up just glossing over it as its done so many times in the past.
regardless, wotc is not obligated to employ her, and they haven't used her art in awhile. this is more or less just an official statement of why and why she won't find work with them again. its accountability, just like every other brand and industry does all the time.
like i've said in a few different places, wotc and the community knew about these things for years and didn't do anything. society changed to emphasize these issues, and now they're finally taking a stance. honestly they should've taken it 20-25 years ago. this game is old, and so are the issues being tackled right now.
its a shock to a lot of people, but to just as many it isn't and was a long time coming.
So there is no current evidence then. I have to take her past deletions at face value as mistakes she made on her part and corrected them. Cancel culture continues sadly. Forgiveness seems to be character trait that much of society has lost.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
a lack of evidence meeting your standards does not negate the argument against discontinuing the use of her art on cards. this is exactly why she deleted so much of it when she was found out. its a real shame it actually worked.
i should rephrase that. they haven't been using her art for awhile. that's not new. a public statement on why is.
I never said it did negate it. It fulfills what I need to make a personal judgement at this time. I don't go along with the throng and their mob mentality, I take it case by case. More recent and actual evidence against her and I may change my mind. People can feel in the heat of the moment and regret what they did shortly after. Its human nature. This may have been the case or may not. I do feel accountability is very important. As to where repentance overcomes accountability I can only judge on the facts I see. I see no shame in repentance if that was what happened, maybe not. "Too err is human, to forgive divine." -Alexander Pope. I can understand if some are not willing to forgive. Personally I can only forgive WotC so much, a point will come when I cannot if they continue the path they have chosen. Much I agree with, much I don't at this point.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Forgiveness is important, what society has largely lost is a commitment to earning it. Why presume that since she hasn't done anything controversial in public for a year that her views have changed? Is there evidence of that change?
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Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
I took a look at some of the stuff they claimed was "racist". One meme had some racist imagery on it (both sides) so I can agree there. Others were just conspiracy ramblings. As for the YouTube group I watched some of their material, didn't see anything racist on it. Again just conspiracy babble and a dislike for George Soros. Must have not seen this anti-Semitic material.
You do all know that this line of talk is going to get this thread locked right?
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
If only everyone would try. You may notice I haven't sided with WOTC or Nielsen here. All I've done is denounce the self-righteous name-callers and people who admit they withhold compassion. I would have stayed out entirely (and probably should have) if people had stuck to rational argument. But I really can't stand hypocrisy. I was with you until the very last point. I agree that not all perspectives are equal and that they should be challenged, explored, or educated. But removing perspectives from the public discourse - what do you mean by that? Is that the same thing as turning into the thought police? Is it punishing people for their thoughts rather than their actions? If so, I can't agree with that. Let me know if I've misinterpreted it.
Do you know the quote "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"? I believe in freedom of speech. Unfortunately, not all speech is uplifting or unifying. Sometimes speech is a denouncement of the actions or words of another. Some speech is meant to challenge certain perspectives or to make others think about their actions. But trying to remove the right of expression because you don't agree with an expression is wrong.
(And here I need to clarify that this isn't what I think is happening in the case of WOTC vs. Nielsen - as I said, I believe they have the right to end the relationship just as she has the right to whatever she believes. The above comment is just a reflection of the more general conversation on perspective and expression.)
I agree with all of this. Freedom of expression does not exempt one from the consequences. WOTC is within their rights to decide who or what they do not wish to be associated with. And people could have accepted that and moved on.
But, and finally bringing it back around to my initial post, does name-calling really add to the conversation? Is calling her a "throwback," a "Troglodyte," and "an awful person" with a "twisted little heart" part of rational argument? That is what I reacted to. I asked for people to behave civilly, and the first reply I got was a "justified" refusal to extend compassion to another human being because the "justified" individual believes that person is misguided.
That is the problem I see with cancel culture - it rarely seeks to build up, only to destroy. It looks to remove rather than to educate.
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
Because I have more decks than fit in a signature
Useful Resources:
MTGSalvation tags
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ManabaseCrafter
Agreed and well said. But this is where I need to let it go as it will no longer be mentally healthy for me to continue. I have said my piece, put out my opinions and ideas. Possibly agree to disagree and move on for the time. I am going to leave it with a very fitting card in my estimation.
Rest In Peace
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
In other news, Noah Bradley is a total creepy scumbag who apparently goes around giving out sex invitation cards, and his wife is a cuck who supports him, and that's much more upsetting to me than Terese Nielsen liking goofy politics. By all accounts she's a very sweet and kind woman, how many of you have moms or aunts who have weird political or religious beliefs?
Interesting that the frame you're using here assumes there's no justification for any outrage in this or evidently any case.
So you perceive the issue being that people who engage in call-out/call-in and/or canceling behaviors are some combination of dumb, immature, and/or thin-skinned? Does that not strike you as a particularly broad brush to paint people with?
I'm not even sure what I've seen in the response to Nielsen's social media behavior could be described as outrage, really. At most intense, it was disdain for her opinions and a reluctance to let their money in part go towards benefiting Nielsen. I'm sure there were the usual fringe histrionics, probably some idiotic threats, but my perception is that that doesn't really describe the overall mentality of people who were speaking against Nielsen. Although, I'm talking about the contemporary response and not the response in 1018-2019 which I was not paying attention to outside of lurking here.
The use of 'cuck' and framing Nielsen's politics as 'goofy' aside, we can walk and chew gum at the same time. Bradley and Nielsen can both have tarnished brands for different reasons, and their responses to controversy can carry different consequences. I read Bradley's acknowledgement and apology, and it was far more compelling than anything Nielsen said in defense of herself over two years, if nothing else.
Yes, some of their beliefs aren't just 'weird' they are openly bigoted and hateful, and I limit my interactions with them to restrict how much their beliefs can impact me. And I breathe a sigh of relief when they get denied opportunities to share their beliefs or when they face consequences for what they say. Kinda like Nielsen.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
But, unlucky for her, people want WotC to be less *****ty, and her continued palling around with *****ty people went against that. Too bad,so sad. I'll miss her incredible artwork, but it's her own fault.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!