I hate the new Urza, Lord High Artificer. Will he ever get banned as a commander? I can't stand him. He is so easy to build around. He can mana ramp insanely. He can also lock out players very early in the game making the game very un-fun and un-interactive. I played a person who got him out on turn two along with Winter Orb. On turn two I'm already locked out of the game and he has a large sum of mana available. It just creates games that I want to scoop right away as well as eventually not play.
I am rather curious how a mono-blue deck managed to get 6 mana on turn 2.
Anyway, I don't think he'll get banned anytime soon (but I'm not an expert at all). He doesn't really do things that are uniquely broken, and it's not that hard to run some artifact destruction to shut him down.
If you don't enjoy playing against him, and this is a deck in your local playgroup, sharing that sentiment might not be a bad thing. Commander is first and foremost a social game, and its everyone's job to ensure everyone is having fun. If no one likes playing against such hard-lock decks, then its reasonable to agree to just no play such decks
With Urza, Lord High Artificer, he has the ability "Tap an untapped artifact you control: Add[mana][/blue]". So on turn 1, the player plays an island. Then the player plays a bunch of 0 drop artifacts. In my case, I believe my opponent played a Sol Ring on turn one along with other 0 cost artifacts. He also played Mox Opal. Turn two, another island. Bust out Urza and then tap just two artifacts for [mana][/blue] and then play Winter Orb.
I have let my friend know I don't like playing it, especially since I play casually and his deck is for cEDH. He tries to argue it isn't that broken but I think that is just because he spent so much money on the deck. Although a good starting hand is necessary for this to occur, with Urza's artifact into mana ability and the abundance of 0 to low costing artifacts (that also synchronize with blue so well), it is easy to massively mana ramp early. Also, even with artifact hate, if he can shut of the game early, I'm basically just saying "pass turn" on my turn if I don't draw that specific artifact removal card as well if I even have the mana to use it.
So he just basically emptied his hand to play that, meaning it all falls flat if someone blows up the winter orb on the next turn. And he could only play this because he drew a sol ring in the first place. In effect, he could have the same set-up on turn 2 without urza by playing sol-ring and a mana rock.
I mean, it obviously isn't fun to play against this, but Urza isn't the enabler of this tactic, winter orb+sol ring is.
True. However, Urza, Lord High Artificer is what makes Winter Orb dangerous because if Urza, Lord High Artificer is out, he can just use any artifact for mana, mana rock or not, for mana so his/her lands only untapping one per turn is no longer a big deal. He can also just tap Winter Orb before his turn so he isn't effected by it at all. Also, Winter Orb is just one example of how Urza, Lord High Artificer can lock out games. The Commandzone and Jumbo Commander did a deck tech on him on YouTube and displayed how to pull off some of the easy/one sided game locks.
Also, until a player gets an artifact removal, this is going to give the Urza, Lord High Artificer player a massive advantage being able to progress rapidly while others are progressing very restrictively.
I had a bad gameplay experience with this so I am definitely coming at this one sided and probably sound like I'm complaining a lot (which I am, LOL). I just feel that in a format where getting ahead on mana is such an advantage, it doesn't seem fair to have a Commander that can so easily mana ramp, especially in the color blue. Then in addition, have an easy way with multiple different artifacts to just lock out the game.
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"He displays a perverse charisma fueled by avarice. Highly dangerous. Recommend civil sanctions."
— Agmand Sarv, Azorius hussar
So he just basically emptied his hand to play that, meaning it all falls flat if someone blows up the winter orb on the next turn. And he could only play this because he drew a sol ring in the first place. In effect, he could have the same set-up on turn 2 without urza by playing sol-ring and a mana rock.
I mean, it obviously isn't fun to play against this, but Urza isn't the enabler of this tactic, winter orb+sol ring is.
It seems like the OP's meta was not ready for a lock on turn two and no one had any removal in hand for either Urza or the Orb, which is understandable because not all games begin with at least one person with artifact removal. That's not even speaking to if they had removal with CMC greater than 2 since they'd be untapping one land and hopefully playing another. And the Urza player had designed it for cEDH, so they are banking on just running the orb out, being able to untap, and runaway with the game. And even if the Urza player exhausted their hand like you point, they still have Urza's last ability to use to try and pull more things from their deck. They are not strapped for options like the rest of a table locked under Orb.
True. However, Urza, Lord High Artificer is what makes Winter Orb dangerous because if Urza, Lord High Artificer is out, he can just use any artifact for mana, mana rock or not, for mana so his/her lands only untapping one per turn is no longer a big deal. He can also just tap Winter Orb before his turn so he isn't effected by it at all. Also, Winter Orb is just one example of how Urza, Lord High Artificer can lock out games. The Commandzone and Jumbo Commander did a deck tech on him on YouTube and displayed how to pull off some of the easy/one sided game locks.
Also, until a player gets an artifact removal, this is going to give the Urza, Lord High Artificer player a massive advantage being able to progress rapidly while others are progressing very restrictively.
I had a bad gameplay experience with this so I am definitely coming at this one sided and probably sound like I'm complaining a lot (which I am, LOL). I just feel that in a format where getting ahead on mana is such an advantage, it doesn't seem fair to have a Commander that can so easily mana ramp, especially in the color blue. Then in addition, have an easy way with multiple different artifacts to just lock out the game.
Yeah, I don't disagree that this wasn't fun and that the Urza player's deck is probably too optimized for your meta. The only thing that I disagree on is that this indicated that Urza itself is in any way broken and needs to be banned. The player could have had a similar mana-advantage by focusing on an artifact based manabase and the like. Urza might make it a bit easier, but I don't think he is required for this tactic. The ramp you mention is also something that a number of green decks should be able to keep up with, unless the urza player plays lots of 0-cost artifacts, in which case he needs to play a lot of costly draw spells.
I play Urza myself, but I made a point of not using cards which create bad games or stupid infinite combos. I mostly play goodstuff along him and the deck is quite fun to pilot. I don't really need Urza, but when he's in play the game becomes much more interesting for me, of course.
I hate to admit it, but I threw in Winter Orb since I already owned it, however I only plan to use it in the late game (if ever) to help me win quickly thereafter. I have not yet played it, so far it just sat in my hand when I drew it.
Anyhow, I have to agree that Urza is quite strong, but you can manage to build a deck without becoming archenemy as soon as you reveal him.
I wish I had a play group of people more like you Magiqmaster. I guess most in my play group are cool but it is the one dude who tries to play cEDH during our casual nights. The other guys know his deck is cEDH built but don't do much, although I know they don't care for it. I wish I could get them on board for simply just not playing it. I personally don't care if a deck is very strong, as long as I can interact with it. In my play group, I've had people with very good decks but they were at least fun/interesting and I could still at least play. Getting lock out early game isn't even a game at that point.
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"He displays a perverse charisma fueled by avarice. Highly dangerous. Recommend civil sanctions."
— Agmand Sarv, Azorius hussar
Competitive decks are great if played against other competitive decks, as thats the only way to really stretch the limits of what you want to archive and fight for it.
Any infinite combo gets pretty boring after a bunch of times, especially if a game is non-interactive, you BADLY want as much interaction as possible in a multiplayer game, as thats the entire point of what makes it fun ; otherwise you can just goldfish your dec as the opponent is just annoying anyway.
A good way to approach too competitive decks is to build multiple decks and simply give that guy a deck to choose from, so they get an idea what the powerlevel should be.
If a commander spells instant death to everyone if not immediately removed, thats hardly fun at all.
And for that the banned list of Commander does a pretty poor job banning cards that produce such unfun games, it just doesnt cover anywhere near close to what it would need to for a purely casual multiplayer table.
1. You have to be playing either Vintage or Commander for someone to drop a Sol Ring, so rare and lucky turn ones happen.
2. Stasis is allowed. The playing of removal is expected in these formats.
3. Either of these formats can kill with an infinite combo and less luck by turn two.
Just being able to ramp so aggressively with Urza, Lord High Artificer's built in ability is over powered. Plus on top of that, he even has a mana outlet for all the different ways he can create infinite mana. So you have a card that can help make infinite mana combos and has an outlet for it that is right in your Command Zone every game so you don't even need to tutor for him. You have a majority pieces of your combo right by your deck at the beginning of every single game.
— Agmand Sarv, Azorius hussar
Anyway, I don't think he'll get banned anytime soon (but I'm not an expert at all). He doesn't really do things that are uniquely broken, and it's not that hard to run some artifact destruction to shut him down.
If you don't enjoy playing against him, and this is a deck in your local playgroup, sharing that sentiment might not be a bad thing. Commander is first and foremost a social game, and its everyone's job to ensure everyone is having fun. If no one likes playing against such hard-lock decks, then its reasonable to agree to just no play such decks
I have let my friend know I don't like playing it, especially since I play casually and his deck is for cEDH. He tries to argue it isn't that broken but I think that is just because he spent so much money on the deck. Although a good starting hand is necessary for this to occur, with Urza's artifact into mana ability and the abundance of 0 to low costing artifacts (that also synchronize with blue so well), it is easy to massively mana ramp early. Also, even with artifact hate, if he can shut of the game early, I'm basically just saying "pass turn" on my turn if I don't draw that specific artifact removal card as well if I even have the mana to use it.
— Agmand Sarv, Azorius hussar
I mean, it obviously isn't fun to play against this, but Urza isn't the enabler of this tactic, winter orb+sol ring is.
Also, until a player gets an artifact removal, this is going to give the Urza, Lord High Artificer player a massive advantage being able to progress rapidly while others are progressing very restrictively.
I had a bad gameplay experience with this so I am definitely coming at this one sided and probably sound like I'm complaining a lot (which I am, LOL). I just feel that in a format where getting ahead on mana is such an advantage, it doesn't seem fair to have a Commander that can so easily mana ramp, especially in the color blue. Then in addition, have an easy way with multiple different artifacts to just lock out the game.
— Agmand Sarv, Azorius hussar
It seems like the OP's meta was not ready for a lock on turn two and no one had any removal in hand for either Urza or the Orb, which is understandable because not all games begin with at least one person with artifact removal. That's not even speaking to if they had removal with CMC greater than 2 since they'd be untapping one land and hopefully playing another. And the Urza player had designed it for cEDH, so they are banking on just running the orb out, being able to untap, and runaway with the game. And even if the Urza player exhausted their hand like you point, they still have Urza's last ability to use to try and pull more things from their deck. They are not strapped for options like the rest of a table locked under Orb.
Yeah, I don't disagree that this wasn't fun and that the Urza player's deck is probably too optimized for your meta. The only thing that I disagree on is that this indicated that Urza itself is in any way broken and needs to be banned. The player could have had a similar mana-advantage by focusing on an artifact based manabase and the like. Urza might make it a bit easier, but I don't think he is required for this tactic. The ramp you mention is also something that a number of green decks should be able to keep up with, unless the urza player plays lots of 0-cost artifacts, in which case he needs to play a lot of costly draw spells.
— Agmand Sarv, Azorius hussar
If you want an idea, check it out: https://deckbox.org/sets/2401657
I hate to admit it, but I threw in Winter Orb since I already owned it, however I only plan to use it in the late game (if ever) to help me win quickly thereafter. I have not yet played it, so far it just sat in my hand when I drew it.
Anyhow, I have to agree that Urza is quite strong, but you can manage to build a deck without becoming archenemy as soon as you reveal him.
— Agmand Sarv, Azorius hussar
Any infinite combo gets pretty boring after a bunch of times, especially if a game is non-interactive, you BADLY want as much interaction as possible in a multiplayer game, as thats the entire point of what makes it fun ; otherwise you can just goldfish your dec as the opponent is just annoying anyway.
A good way to approach too competitive decks is to build multiple decks and simply give that guy a deck to choose from, so they get an idea what the powerlevel should be.
If a commander spells instant death to everyone if not immediately removed, thats hardly fun at all.
And for that the banned list of Commander does a pretty poor job banning cards that produce such unfun games, it just doesnt cover anywhere near close to what it would need to for a purely casual multiplayer table.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
2. Stasis is allowed. The playing of removal is expected in these formats.
3. Either of these formats can kill with an infinite combo and less luck by turn two.
Urza isn't the problem. Your luck is.
— Agmand Sarv, Azorius hussar