Came back from pre-release today. My LGS had enough people to do both, a draft for $25 or a sealed for $50. Since about 20 people showed up, it was split evenly between each event. Prizes were awarded based on games won, no grand prize at end.
Due to an forgotten bill I owe (Horse camp!) , I elected to do the $25 draft. I was also so busy these two weeks that I didn’t read the hundred articles on this set so I kind of settled into a basic G/B creature & removal deck. I purposely avoided snow-matters since snow-covered land counted against my selection and I wanted as broad as possible selection in the spell category. I only ended up with one snow-matters Frostwalla and I never would’ve used it anyways. Many players drafted as many as four colors trying to pin down a strategy.
Round 1: vs. RB 0-2-0
I had a ton of color screw. Like Arena-level screw. I started off with a solid three forests and a full hand of green spells on curve. But as the game I progressed, I kept drawing into Forests, black spells and no swamps! by the time I drew my first swamp, I was already dead. Game 2 was more of the same. Got my a swamp in my opening hand but ended up with nothing but double black spells. My opponent was kind enough to examine my deck and, save for a suggestion to swap out one card and one land I was spot on with my assessment and selection of cards.
Round 2: vs UW 1-2-0
My opponent was color screwed game one and I chipped away as his life totals. Game 2, I was color hosed, (again!). Game 3 was infinitely more fair as I chipped away at my opponent and we went to turns. He successfully managed to put into play 5 flyers along with enough blockers and won the final game by the last turn and one life. I had sideboarded three flyer removals game 2 but never got to use them.
Round 3: vs Slivers 2-1-0
Game 1 I had to mulligan down to six to avoid color screw and my opponent dismantled my hand by turn 3 pretty much putting me in top deck mode. Game 2 my opponent and I slugged away at each other until I was down to 1 life and one creature and he was down to 3 life and 5 Slivers. I managed to top deck Silumgar Scavenger and attack for lethal. This resulted in a somewhat complex discussion with a judge about the Exploit ability. Game 3, I was at a severe creature disadvantage and he had me down to 1 life again. I had just managed to cast Twin-Silk Spider and had a Silumgar on the field with two counters. He had a sliver and changeling in play and 20 life. I had seriously botched not playing Mind Rake against him when he had Hollowhead Sliver and Goblin Oriflamme in hand. I couldn’t do more than six damage and couldn’t risk leaving my defenses open. He got greedy and tapped all of his creatures to dig through his deck leaving himself wide open. I overloaded the Scale Up I had in hand for the last five or so turns and swung for lethal. I have never been so excited about such a close win, much less two, like that before. It was tough tempering my excitement.
Overall, I think the set is OK. Not out of this park fun for drafting like Ultimate Masters.
IMHO, making snow-covered lands draft-able really puts pressure on a player not to play snow matters decks. One player drafted a foil Marit Lage’s Slumber for the express purpose of trade. Even ignoring the draft aspect, I feel that snow-matters feels more like an after thought in this set. From what I see there are 16 cards that care about snow. Seriously WotC? Ice Age had twice as many snow matters cards and it was added at the last minute. Ugh.
Rumors that this set was meant to be a Time Spiral 2 make sense. With the insane number of mechanics and the hodgepodge of art. I kind of wish it was marketed as much as well. Doing it as a Time Spiral 2 could have meant more interesting designs as well.
I don’t play Modern. I have too large of a gap in my collection to build a deck without buying too many cards. But the way I feel this set is marketed, I don’t think I’m the target consumer. $200+ is a bit steep for a box, IMHO, when I would rather spend that $200 towards a reliable Modern deck.
I don’t feel that I can build a reliable, reasonably competitive, deck using cards I would get from buying a box. Many of the Modern players who showed up voiced mostly the same sentiment. Most of the cards just aren’t where they need to be to be taken seriously I guess. Oddly, almost all discussion amongst the Modern players centered around using these cards in EDH.
But I digress, after actually playing with this set. I came to the conclusion that this set is clearly a money grab. Like Iconic Masters or Masters 25. I won’t be buying many of the cards.
It was nice seeing Man-o'-War, At least I know my Visions play set is still playable.
IMHO, WOTC really doesn't seem to understand Modern. The few cards they did print or reprint for Modern are out of balance compared to cards for EDH. Of the cards they created for Modern most are under powered or the casting cost is too high to make it into competitive decklists. Coupled with the fact that they design every set to be a Draft experience, keeps sets at a weaker level than they ought to be(MM1 level). If reprint sets didn't have to be designed to be a balance draft environment their hands would be freed up to design better sets for constructed play, also IMHO.
The idea of a set to place cards for Modern that bypasses Standard is a great idea on paper, but the implementation is weak-sauce. WOTC really needs to figure out Modern and how to add cards to that format, other than by accident. And EDH does not need any more help, they can stop making EDH staples in sets geared towards Modern. All in all, I'm under the impression that WOTC is only interested in the "cash grab" set mode for the time being.
The impact of Modern Horizon on modern is more subtle , as the cards are just very slightly pushed to matter in moderns metagame of cards, so its actually not by accident at all in this set if something sees play in Modern, they "forced" it to happen.
However, the cards are not so crazy auto-includes that it blanks anything else, quite a bunch of cards are potential options for decks and exchange cards to slightly mess with the metagame, but thats all.
EDH and the rest just gulps up all potentially good cards anyway, so any set that has some remotely playable cards will fit that category.
The vast majority of the constructed relevant cards are rare or mythic, the commons and uncommons are mainly made for limited.
The set from a design standpoint is very much TIME SPIRAL , with the massive amount of returning keywords and the somewhat reprint of older cards in new name, its pretty much exactly Time Spiral, just more expensive and marketed as a modern set.
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The limited games so far are quite basic, all the mechanics are very much glued to a color combination of mechanics and quite a bunch of rares/mythics are not too crazy in limited (the exceptions of bombs still exist of course).
The set being more expensive completely kills it for me as a Draft format, i wouldnt play this at all and if Drafts would cost double normally, i would very much stop drafting all together, as this is just the cheapest possible money grab imaginable.
It saddens me deeply that people buy these overpriced products, and the fact that so many do, just gives WotC more incentive to ramp up the cost of playing the game ; very very bad development and people just dont care, which is even worse.
Anyhow, sets nothing special, but costs double, so its actually a really really bad product compared to a normal Draft set.
There's so much great stuff that I want from the set, but I'll probably never get to draft it since it costs so much. I'll probably only ever buy like one or two booster packs. I guess I can order a few of the cheap rares. It's a shame, I've been gunning for another Time Spiral set forever.
So that makes it exactly like all the masters sets. I want all the stuff in it, but I'm pretty broke, and I definitely can't justify the cost.
IMHO, WOTC really doesn't seem to understand Modern. The few cards they did print or reprint for Modern are out of balance compared to cards for EDH. Of the cards they created for Modern most are under powered or the casting cost is too high to make it into competitive decklists. Coupled with the fact that they design every set to be a Draft experience, keeps sets at a weaker level than they ought to be(MM1 level). If reprint sets didn't have to be designed to be a balance draft environment their hands would be freed up to design better sets for constructed play, also IMHO.
The idea of a set to place cards for Modern that bypasses Standard is a great idea on paper, but the implementation is weak-sauce. WOTC really needs to figure out Modern and how to add cards to that format, other than by accident. And EDH does not need any more help, they can stop making EDH staples in sets geared towards Modern. All in all, I'm under the impression that WOTC is only interested in the "cash grab" set mode for the time being.
Much truth in this post.
This idea of every set needing to be available to draft is what nerfs a set like this. So much potential then it becomes watered down for the draft experience. WotC knows this and continues the same old $#@+. Couple that with the obvious cards for Commander and the set becomes a jack of all trades and a master of none. So yes, it becomes "cash grab". There is good stuff don't get me wrong, but the pricing is too much for what you get and if you call it Modern Horizons cater to the MODERN CONSTRUCTED player for crying out loud.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
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This idea of every set needing to be available to draft is what nerfs a set like this. So much potential then it becomes watered down for the draft experience. WotC knows this and continues the same old $#@+. Couple that with the obvious cards for Commander and the set becomes a jack of all trades and a master of none. So yes, it becomes "cash grab". There is good stuff don't get me wrong, but the pricing is too much for what you get and if you call it Modern Horizons cater to the MODERN CONSTRUCTED player for crying out loud.
I agree with the pricing issue but if you don't make a randomized set not draftable it is just a lootbox and people (including me) would be more upset. The other option to not make it draftable would be something like precon decks or commander arsenal but by doing that the number or cards we would have gotten would probably be around 20-30 and there would have still been "bad" cards in there as well not to mention the price hike on such a product. So I think it is okay to have it a draftable set. However their pricing for an unlimited set that is meant to be draftable is just absurd.
Look, there are 4 draftable sets a year guaranteed. All I and a few others are asking for ONE just ONE set that doesn't have draft in mind. It dilutes the product and brings the power level down, it inhibits design space. It would be a true PREMIUM product as well. Modern doesn't need draft chaff period. Again I am glad people like draft, but as I said you can do it 4 times a year guaranteed. All sealed random product doesn't need to have draft in mind, and it doesn't need Commander in mind either (unless it is specifically towards Commander). Let Modern be Modern not Modern Lite, plus Draft, plus a sprinkle of Legacy, plus Commander, plus Pauper. Again a jack of all trades and a master of NONE.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Look, there are 4 draftable sets a year guaranteed. All I and a few others are asking for ONE just ONE set that doesn't have draft in mind. It dilutes the product and brings the power level down, it inhibits design space. It would be a true PREMIUM product as well. Modern doesn't need draft chaff period. Again I am glad people like draft, but as I said you can do it 4 times a year guaranteed. All sealed random product doesn't need to have draft in mind, and it doesn't need Commander in mind either (unless it is specifically towards Commander). Let Modern be Modern not Modern Lite, plus Draft, plus a sprinkle of Legacy, plus Commander, plus Pauper. Again a jack of all trades and a master of NONE.
Let's make something clear: chaff isn't a limited thing; it's a TCG thing. Bad cards will never go away ever because they're part of the psychological hold that makes the business model work. Gems shine brighter when they're surrounded by crap. Any randomized product released in MTG is going to be drafted by someone, somewhere. Heck, I've drafted Fallen Empires before, and that set definitely wasn't designed for draft. Limited design just takes crap that would have been present otherwise and shapes it into archetypes that encourage more people to draft it.
Commander did get some purpose-built slots, so, theoretically, they could have swapped out Sisay or Morophon for something else. Beyond legendary creatures, Commander, like limited, is also a repository for "bad" cards that thrive in long games. Again, bad rares are going to be part of the game no matter what, and commander just makes a use for many of them. This conversation isn't about Horizons or Modern or even just Magic. It's the entire TCG business model.
And they won't go away if players tolerate or even encourage it. WotC wants you to settle. Don't apologize for them or look the other way.
I understand a limited amount of low power cards have to make it into a set, but if the set is catered towards power, ie Modern, then eliminate as much of the low end chaff you can and fill it with more playable "powerful" cards. And if you include the chaff, downgrade to uncommon or even common and it makes it more playable in other formats possibly. And don't upgrade certain commons to uncommons because of price, keep them at common. Nobody wants Future SightNether SpiritReap the Past or Genesis at Rare in Modern constructed, nobody. And nobody was clamoring for upgraded to Uncommons Battle ScreechPillageCrypt Rats or the Cycle Lands in Modern constructed either. Draft drove these stupid upgrades and keeps 25 cent rare turds popping up like Dandelions. I don't want power creep through the roof but I don't want predictable draft chaff in Premium sets designed for Constructed either. WotC needs to do better, period.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
And don't upgrade certain commons to uncommons because of price, keep them at common. Nobody wants Future Sight Nether Spirit Reap the Past or Genesis at Rare in Modern constructed, nobody.
Nobody needs any rarity if it was for constructed only. Why make it into a lootbox so you have the chance to get the card you need? In that case everything thats not the thing you want/need becomes a "bad card" if you just open a randomized product for stuff you need even if you can trade it away
I get you want more powerful stuff we all want that but you can't make a set just full of powerfull cards ant it also being more than 40 cards.
As I said before if modern horizon was something like "From the vault" or "commander arsenal" and we have cards like future sight in it I would understand your complaint. Sure more powerful cards would be nice but saying that you don't want a randomized set be draftable is essentially saying you are fine with playing the lottery just for the sake of playing the lottery. You want to be exploited while also not having fun being exploited.
If they put better cards in at all levels it wouldn't be a lottery (or nearly as risky) then would it?
If they keep the crap in, it will always be a lotto. If the price spread was only 2 to 10 dollars on ALL rares in a set I would gladly pay the 6 dollars a pack over a price spread of 25 cents to 50 dollars on rares with 75% of those rares falling under 50 cents. (Which is what happens in most sets by the way.) at 4 dollars a pack.
Less chaff, more playable (slightly more monetary value) cards is what "Premium" sets need.
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
If they put better cards in at all levels it wouldn't be a lottery (or nearly as risky) then would it?
yes it would unless all cards are exactly equal it would still be less risky yes but lorrety nonetheless.
You wont get the lottery aspect out of randomized packs but you can keep the fun in by making it draftable.
Sure it would be nice if there were monetary better cards in the pack but unless you wana draft a set it is always monetarly better to buy the singles you need. You always get the cards you need without relying on the lottery and without getting chaff you dont need.
You wont get the lottery aspect out of randomized packs but you can keep the fun in by making it draftable.
Define "fun".
Some of us don't like draft, don't draft and won't do it period. That isn't "fun" at all to us. There are 4 sets a year you can draft, you don't need a 5th one to make it fun for a subsection of the community. Fun is in the eye of the beholder so to speak. Drafters need to understand everyone doesn't want to draft. I understand you do and you have 4 sets a year to do so, recognize us as well please.
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Some of us don't like draft, don't draft and won't do it period. That isn't "fun" at all to us. There are 4 sets a year you can draft, you don't need a 5th one to make it fun for a subsection of the community.
True Not everyone likes limited but if you take the draft out you take the fun for the limited players out but you gain nothing but the loootboxes and you have those with or without being able to draft the set so its still a loss in general.
Why do you open boxes/packs in general would be my follow up? As the EV will always become lower than the packprice it is always advised to purchase the singles you need rather than boxes/packs.
Why do you open boxes/packs in general would be my follow up? As the EV will always become lower than the packprice it is always advised to purchase the singles you need rather than boxes/packs.
You didn't answer my question. What may be "fun" to you may be "boring" to me and vice versa. But I will answer yours.
I do both. Its fun (for me) to open boxes, I get some value cards at times that I can trade/sell or get credit for. Then I buy secondary market cards I want or need to build decks or my collection.
You are talking to someone that grew up in the 70s and 80s collecting Baseball and Football cards. Having a complete set was often the goal and still is for me on many sets. Cracking packs has always been a fun activity for me. But just like then I never wanted to open some Minor League Scrub who couldn't hit his weight I wanted to open the All Stars. Same applies to Magic, I don't want the draft chaff, I want more power cards and those cards tend to be more pricey, not because of the chaff, but because of their constructed play value.
Again I will say, why is there the need to have EVERY set be draftable? There are 4 a year, always draftable and always with the draft player in mind. This is only a "loss" to the already placated drafter. It would be a GAIN to some of us. Everything doesn't need to keep draft in mind, it just doesn't. Different strokes for different folks. We can coexist.
PS: I appreciate the civility. Lets keep it that way.
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
PS: I appreciate the civility. Lets keep it that way. Smile
Agreed
Define "fun".
I didn't answer that directly since it's different for everybody but for me I also like to just open boxes but that is due to the same psycological fact that makes people like betting thats why I personally wouldn't call that fun. Fun for me(in magic sense) is playing the game and deckbuilding both can be applied to drafting but also constructed.
Having a complete set was often the goal and still is for me on many sets. ... But just like then I never wanted to open some Minor League Scrub who couldn't hit his weight I wanted to open the All Stars.
This to me seems like it is conflicting since If you want a complete set wouldn't you need the minor league scrubs as well?
And just like with magic what makes cards valuable and desireable is not just defined by how good it is but also by how bad the other things are.
If every pack was just all stars there would still be undesireable all star cards, or all cards would be undesireable.
Cracking packs has always been a fun activity for me
Like I said for me it is more of a psychological thing. But if it is fun for you great. But what makes it fun for you? Is it the thrill of getting something valuable/something you need? If that is the case you can't make everything valuable because that will get rid of the thrill (and the aforementioned problem of if everything is valuable nothing is, and the thing that there will always be duds as good cards are also defined by bad cards)
Again I will say, why is there the need to have EVERY set be draftable?
Not every set is draftable, the not randomized product isn't. Every randomized product needs to be draftable (IMO) due to the fact that most people don't enjoy skinner boxes/loot boxes on their merit alone. And being draftable adds something to proactively do to packs. (While IMO not taking anything away)
Sure to alot of people collecting is a big part of Magic, but that part benefits from duds the most, it makes other cards more valuable and more desireable. And to people who are only collectors the definition of dud differs from those that play as well. (See Reserved list cards)
So in general I don't think making a set draftable is a loss the collectors nor the players. In fact I actually do believe both benefit from it.
The only downside (to players) I see is the general downside of randomized cards it makes some cards (prohibitivly) expensive, and this is the case even if a randomized set isn't draftable.
For masters sets and esp. Modern Horizons what hurts is the box/pack pricing.
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Due to an forgotten bill I owe (Horse camp!) , I elected to do the $25 draft. I was also so busy these two weeks that I didn’t read the hundred articles on this set so I kind of settled into a basic G/B creature & removal deck. I purposely avoided snow-matters since snow-covered land counted against my selection and I wanted as broad as possible selection in the spell category. I only ended up with one snow-matters Frostwalla and I never would’ve used it anyways. Many players drafted as many as four colors trying to pin down a strategy.
Round 1: vs. RB 0-2-0
I had a ton of color screw. Like Arena-level screw. I started off with a solid three forests and a full hand of green spells on curve. But as the game I progressed, I kept drawing into Forests, black spells and no swamps! by the time I drew my first swamp, I was already dead. Game 2 was more of the same. Got my a swamp in my opening hand but ended up with nothing but double black spells. My opponent was kind enough to examine my deck and, save for a suggestion to swap out one card and one land I was spot on with my assessment and selection of cards.
Round 2: vs UW 1-2-0
My opponent was color screwed game one and I chipped away as his life totals. Game 2, I was color hosed, (again!). Game 3 was infinitely more fair as I chipped away at my opponent and we went to turns. He successfully managed to put into play 5 flyers along with enough blockers and won the final game by the last turn and one life. I had sideboarded three flyer removals game 2 but never got to use them.
Round 3: vs Slivers 2-1-0
Game 1 I had to mulligan down to six to avoid color screw and my opponent dismantled my hand by turn 3 pretty much putting me in top deck mode. Game 2 my opponent and I slugged away at each other until I was down to 1 life and one creature and he was down to 3 life and 5 Slivers. I managed to top deck Silumgar Scavenger and attack for lethal. This resulted in a somewhat complex discussion with a judge about the Exploit ability. Game 3, I was at a severe creature disadvantage and he had me down to 1 life again. I had just managed to cast Twin-Silk Spider and had a Silumgar on the field with two counters. He had a sliver and changeling in play and 20 life. I had seriously botched not playing Mind Rake against him when he had Hollowhead Sliver and Goblin Oriflamme in hand. I couldn’t do more than six damage and couldn’t risk leaving my defenses open. He got greedy and tapped all of his creatures to dig through his deck leaving himself wide open. I overloaded the Scale Up I had in hand for the last five or so turns and swung for lethal. I have never been so excited about such a close win, much less two, like that before. It was tough tempering my excitement.
Overall, I think the set is OK. Not out of this park fun for drafting like Ultimate Masters.
IMHO, making snow-covered lands draft-able really puts pressure on a player not to play snow matters decks. One player drafted a foil Marit Lage’s Slumber for the express purpose of trade. Even ignoring the draft aspect, I feel that snow-matters feels more like an after thought in this set. From what I see there are 16 cards that care about snow. Seriously WotC? Ice Age had twice as many snow matters cards and it was added at the last minute. Ugh.
Rumors that this set was meant to be a Time Spiral 2 make sense. With the insane number of mechanics and the hodgepodge of art. I kind of wish it was marketed as much as well. Doing it as a Time Spiral 2 could have meant more interesting designs as well.
I don’t play Modern. I have too large of a gap in my collection to build a deck without buying too many cards. But the way I feel this set is marketed, I don’t think I’m the target consumer. $200+ is a bit steep for a box, IMHO, when I would rather spend that $200 towards a reliable Modern deck.
I don’t feel that I can build a reliable, reasonably competitive, deck using cards I would get from buying a box. Many of the Modern players who showed up voiced mostly the same sentiment. Most of the cards just aren’t where they need to be to be taken seriously I guess. Oddly, almost all discussion amongst the Modern players centered around using these cards in EDH.
But I digress, after actually playing with this set. I came to the conclusion that this set is clearly a money grab. Like Iconic Masters or Masters 25. I won’t be buying many of the cards.
It was nice seeing Man-o'-War, At least I know my Visions play set is still playable.
The idea of a set to place cards for Modern that bypasses Standard is a great idea on paper, but the implementation is weak-sauce. WOTC really needs to figure out Modern and how to add cards to that format, other than by accident. And EDH does not need any more help, they can stop making EDH staples in sets geared towards Modern. All in all, I'm under the impression that WOTC is only interested in the "cash grab" set mode for the time being.
However, the cards are not so crazy auto-includes that it blanks anything else, quite a bunch of cards are potential options for decks and exchange cards to slightly mess with the metagame, but thats all.
EDH and the rest just gulps up all potentially good cards anyway, so any set that has some remotely playable cards will fit that category.
The vast majority of the constructed relevant cards are rare or mythic, the commons and uncommons are mainly made for limited.
The set from a design standpoint is very much TIME SPIRAL , with the massive amount of returning keywords and the somewhat reprint of older cards in new name, its pretty much exactly Time Spiral, just more expensive and marketed as a modern set.
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The limited games so far are quite basic, all the mechanics are very much glued to a color combination of mechanics and quite a bunch of rares/mythics are not too crazy in limited (the exceptions of bombs still exist of course).
The set being more expensive completely kills it for me as a Draft format, i wouldnt play this at all and if Drafts would cost double normally, i would very much stop drafting all together, as this is just the cheapest possible money grab imaginable.
It saddens me deeply that people buy these overpriced products, and the fact that so many do, just gives WotC more incentive to ramp up the cost of playing the game ; very very bad development and people just dont care, which is even worse.
Anyhow, sets nothing special, but costs double, so its actually a really really bad product compared to a normal Draft set.
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So that makes it exactly like all the masters sets. I want all the stuff in it, but I'm pretty broke, and I definitely can't justify the cost.
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Much truth in this post.
This idea of every set needing to be available to draft is what nerfs a set like this. So much potential then it becomes watered down for the draft experience. WotC knows this and continues the same old $#@+. Couple that with the obvious cards for Commander and the set becomes a jack of all trades and a master of none. So yes, it becomes "cash grab". There is good stuff don't get me wrong, but the pricing is too much for what you get and if you call it Modern Horizons cater to the MODERN CONSTRUCTED player for crying out loud.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I agree with the pricing issue but if you don't make a randomized set not draftable it is just a lootbox and people (including me) would be more upset. The other option to not make it draftable would be something like precon decks or commander arsenal but by doing that the number or cards we would have gotten would probably be around 20-30 and there would have still been "bad" cards in there as well not to mention the price hike on such a product. So I think it is okay to have it a draftable set. However their pricing for an unlimited set that is meant to be draftable is just absurd.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Let's make something clear: chaff isn't a limited thing; it's a TCG thing. Bad cards will never go away ever because they're part of the psychological hold that makes the business model work. Gems shine brighter when they're surrounded by crap. Any randomized product released in MTG is going to be drafted by someone, somewhere. Heck, I've drafted Fallen Empires before, and that set definitely wasn't designed for draft. Limited design just takes crap that would have been present otherwise and shapes it into archetypes that encourage more people to draft it.
Commander did get some purpose-built slots, so, theoretically, they could have swapped out Sisay or Morophon for something else. Beyond legendary creatures, Commander, like limited, is also a repository for "bad" cards that thrive in long games. Again, bad rares are going to be part of the game no matter what, and commander just makes a use for many of them. This conversation isn't about Horizons or Modern or even just Magic. It's the entire TCG business model.
I understand a limited amount of low power cards have to make it into a set, but if the set is catered towards power, ie Modern, then eliminate as much of the low end chaff you can and fill it with more playable "powerful" cards. And if you include the chaff, downgrade to uncommon or even common and it makes it more playable in other formats possibly. And don't upgrade certain commons to uncommons because of price, keep them at common. Nobody wants Future Sight Nether Spirit Reap the Past or Genesis at Rare in Modern constructed, nobody. And nobody was clamoring for upgraded to Uncommons Battle Screech Pillage Crypt Rats or the Cycle Lands in Modern constructed either. Draft drove these stupid upgrades and keeps 25 cent rare turds popping up like Dandelions. I don't want power creep through the roof but I don't want predictable draft chaff in Premium sets designed for Constructed either. WotC needs to do better, period.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Nobody needs any rarity if it was for constructed only. Why make it into a lootbox so you have the chance to get the card you need? In that case everything thats not the thing you want/need becomes a "bad card" if you just open a randomized product for stuff you need even if you can trade it away
I get you want more powerful stuff we all want that but you can't make a set just full of powerfull cards ant it also being more than 40 cards.
As I said before if modern horizon was something like "From the vault" or "commander arsenal" and we have cards like future sight in it I would understand your complaint. Sure more powerful cards would be nice but saying that you don't want a randomized set be draftable is essentially saying you are fine with playing the lottery just for the sake of playing the lottery. You want to be exploited while also not having fun being exploited.
If they keep the crap in, it will always be a lotto. If the price spread was only 2 to 10 dollars on ALL rares in a set I would gladly pay the 6 dollars a pack over a price spread of 25 cents to 50 dollars on rares with 75% of those rares falling under 50 cents. (Which is what happens in most sets by the way.) at 4 dollars a pack.
Less chaff, more playable (slightly more monetary value) cards is what "Premium" sets need.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
yes it would unless all cards are exactly equal it would still be less risky yes but lorrety nonetheless.
You wont get the lottery aspect out of randomized packs but you can keep the fun in by making it draftable.
Sure it would be nice if there were monetary better cards in the pack but unless you wana draft a set it is always monetarly better to buy the singles you need. You always get the cards you need without relying on the lottery and without getting chaff you dont need.
Define "fun".
Some of us don't like draft, don't draft and won't do it period. That isn't "fun" at all to us. There are 4 sets a year you can draft, you don't need a 5th one to make it fun for a subsection of the community. Fun is in the eye of the beholder so to speak. Drafters need to understand everyone doesn't want to draft. I understand you do and you have 4 sets a year to do so, recognize us as well please.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
True Not everyone likes limited but if you take the draft out you take the fun for the limited players out but you gain nothing but the loootboxes and you have those with or without being able to draft the set so its still a loss in general.
Why do you open boxes/packs in general would be my follow up? As the EV will always become lower than the packprice it is always advised to purchase the singles you need rather than boxes/packs.
You didn't answer my question. What may be "fun" to you may be "boring" to me and vice versa. But I will answer yours.
I do both. Its fun (for me) to open boxes, I get some value cards at times that I can trade/sell or get credit for. Then I buy secondary market cards I want or need to build decks or my collection.
You are talking to someone that grew up in the 70s and 80s collecting Baseball and Football cards. Having a complete set was often the goal and still is for me on many sets. Cracking packs has always been a fun activity for me. But just like then I never wanted to open some Minor League Scrub who couldn't hit his weight I wanted to open the All Stars. Same applies to Magic, I don't want the draft chaff, I want more power cards and those cards tend to be more pricey, not because of the chaff, but because of their constructed play value.
Again I will say, why is there the need to have EVERY set be draftable? There are 4 a year, always draftable and always with the draft player in mind. This is only a "loss" to the already placated drafter. It would be a GAIN to some of us. Everything doesn't need to keep draft in mind, it just doesn't. Different strokes for different folks. We can coexist.
PS: I appreciate the civility. Lets keep it that way.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Agreed
I didn't answer that directly since it's different for everybody but for me I also like to just open boxes but that is due to the same psycological fact that makes people like betting thats why I personally wouldn't call that fun. Fun for me(in magic sense) is playing the game and deckbuilding both can be applied to drafting but also constructed.
This to me seems like it is conflicting since If you want a complete set wouldn't you need the minor league scrubs as well?
And just like with magic what makes cards valuable and desireable is not just defined by how good it is but also by how bad the other things are.
If every pack was just all stars there would still be undesireable all star cards, or all cards would be undesireable.
Like I said for me it is more of a psychological thing. But if it is fun for you great. But what makes it fun for you? Is it the thrill of getting something valuable/something you need? If that is the case you can't make everything valuable because that will get rid of the thrill (and the aforementioned problem of if everything is valuable nothing is, and the thing that there will always be duds as good cards are also defined by bad cards)
Not every set is draftable, the not randomized product isn't. Every randomized product needs to be draftable (IMO) due to the fact that most people don't enjoy skinner boxes/loot boxes on their merit alone. And being draftable adds something to proactively do to packs. (While IMO not taking anything away)
Sure to alot of people collecting is a big part of Magic, but that part benefits from duds the most, it makes other cards more valuable and more desireable. And to people who are only collectors the definition of dud differs from those that play as well. (See Reserved list cards)
So in general I don't think making a set draftable is a loss the collectors nor the players. In fact I actually do believe both benefit from it.
The only downside (to players) I see is the general downside of randomized cards it makes some cards (prohibitivly) expensive, and this is the case even if a randomized set isn't draftable.
For masters sets and esp. Modern Horizons what hurts is the box/pack pricing.