I've been playing MTG for over 2 years, almost 3, and I mostly play commander. Recently, I've come to a conclusion that whenever I can, I should stop a tutor spell, be it mystical tutor, demonic tutor, or tooth and nail, Etc... and my reasoning for this is that tutoring is the most powerful thing you can do in magic, drawing cards being the second. Tutoring allows you to get an answer to adapt to a situation at any point, it can win the game, or drag out a game longer. Tutors are extremely powerful. But they also do more than just tutor. They allow you to shuffle your library, which can be extremely beneficial. For example, if you're getting flooded with lands, or not drawing any lands, a fresh shuffle can fix that. It can give the player the opportunity to cheat by stacking their deck, assemble combo pieces and so much more. However, recently I got into an argument with someone about this. They believe it's much better to counter or deal with the card they tutored for and not the tutor. Which begs the question of, to allow someone to tutor, or not to tutor? Can anyone give me some insight on your thoughts?
If you counter, or otherwise deal with whatever card your opponent tutored up you essentially two for one them. It’s simple card advantage.
Also if you counter a Tutor the card they would have searched out is still in their deck. So countering a Tutor may slow or temporarily stall them out, while countering or eliminating the tutored card can often times be crippling.
If you check the poll results you’ll notice it’s highly in favor of countering/destroying the tutored card((s). What’s even better is, if they cannot cast the tutored card right away, forcing them to discard it, good times.
However, there are situations where countering the Tutor is the correct move. That’s a tactical decision that’ll vary game to game.
Too situational. It depends. In some cases it makes more sense to counter the tutor if you have good reason to believe the thing being tutored is something you can't deal with (e.g. can't be countered, a land (e.g. Dakmor Salvage in a The Gitrog Monster EDH deck) or a card with a cast trigger). In other cases it makes sense to counter the card being tutored as you get your opponent to waste more time and mana, while you gain card advantage.
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For example, if you're getting flooded with lands, or not drawing any lands, a fresh shuffle can fix that.
Statistically, no, it absolutely does not, at least for a sufficiently randomized library. If you're at, say, 50 cards left in your library, and you know that 20 of them are land, the fact that you've just stalled on land for your first few draws does not mean shuffling your library will have any effect. It's the same reason why if you flip a coin and get heads, then flip a coin again, your odds of that second heads are still 1/2. If drawing cards can't be considered randomized, independent events (barring effects such as Vampiric Tutor or Brainstorm), then there's a serious problem with how someone's shuffling.
Unless you know they run something like Supreme Verdict or have a Cavern of Soul etc. in play then I would almost every time go for the tutor (not counting tooth and nail as a tutor though, It's card and tempo advantage)
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Counter the tutor. Doing that slows them down and may cause the deck to flounder especially if it was something quiet vital they needed at that point in time (board wipe, combo piece, equipment, etc).
1. How many cards are getting tutored? If its just one, that leans towards waiting. If its something different like Gifts Ungiven (banned in Commander, but still,m or something that could make Dark Depths/Thespian's stage go off, you'll want to nip that in the bud.
2. Where will the card end up? If its straight to hand (Demonic Tutor) or top of library Vampiric Tutor, you might be better off waiting, for card advantage. If its to the graveyard (Entomb, directly to the battlefield (Tooth and Nail Entwined[/card]), or the deck is clearly recursion based (definitely anything golgari/sultai), take out the tutor unless you have exile capabilities, because whatever it is is safest for you tucked in their library.
3. What are they going to get? This is trickier if you don't know their deck that well, but you can still make resonable guesses. If you have a board full of beaters, they're playing Blue/White, and its a Mystical Tutor, chances are you're about to eat a Supreme Verdict, so you have to stop the tutor. But if its Wrath of God, and you're sitting on the counter, now they're out 5 mana and two cards instead of 1 mana and one card.
4. Be mindful of the dreaded cast trigger. If something that copies spells is in play (Swarm Intelligence, Zada, Hedron Grinder_, stop the tutor (although the tutor might be copied, and now you're really in trouble). Any of the Eldrazi Titans are going to give you a wedgie up the blind eternities before you can so much as reach for an Island. And then there's the propect of Cascade, particularly where Maelstrom Wanderer is concerned. Next thing you know, you're staring at three spells, and god knows what trouble you're goinna be in.,
I guess overall, countering the tutor is the safer play, while countering the fetch can bring better value. At the end of the day though, the right answer lies in reading the board, making an educated guess, and still being prepared to be wrong.
For example, if you're getting flooded with lands, or not drawing any lands, a fresh shuffle can fix that.
Statistically, no, it absolutely does not, at least for a sufficiently randomized library. If you're at, say, 50 cards left in your library, and you know that 20 of them are land, the fact that you've just stalled on land for your first few draws does not mean shuffling your library will have any effect. It's the same reason why if you flip a coin and get heads, then flip a coin again, your odds of that second heads are still 1/2. If drawing cards can't be considered randomized, independent events (barring effects such as Vampiric Tutor or Brainstorm), then there's a serious problem with how someone's shuffling.
Aww you beat me to it, but yes I completely agree. Unless you have done something within the constraints of the game, you should have no idea what your next card is. Using a tutor in combination with Sensei's divining top is completely different, and might sway me to counter the tutor, if they don't like their next 3 draws.
It can give the player the opportunity to cheat by stacking their deck
If this is a valid concern for the people you play with, stop playing with them.
I was going to suggest just cutting their deck or shuffling their deck. It is completely legal to have the last shuffle of your opponents deck. My friends thought this was not right, and you could only cut, but if someone stacks their deck pregame for a perfect land to nonland ratio, and intentionally does a light shuffle, a simple cut isn't going to change that ratio enough to matter. But absolutely you are right. If this is a problem, this is not the type of player you want in your playgroup.
It usually depends. In 1v1 I would say always counter the tutor since it will either be helping them or hurting you a significant enough amount to go tutor for it. I play commander and usually I am not the biggest threat with my sen triplets deck, which means anything tutored to hurt someone isn't aimed at me, so I'll let it go. And anything they can tutor for to help them I can usually deal with. If I know the deck well enough and someone is going to get something I can't deal with because of deck construction, bad draws, etc. I counter the tutor.
I was playing 1v1 commander this past weekend. My friend had a Glen elendra archmage that he could have used to stop my demonic tutor which got me crypt ghast (which he couldn't counter} which allowed me to ramp into dread cacodemon, and pump out big creatures he couldn't counter to win the game. So yes, in that case, if he had countered my demonic tutor I would not have for sure lost, but I might have. I still think, though, that this was a case of always having to counter the tutor in 1v1 as opposed to always counter the tutor because in a commander game one of my two other opponents would have dealt with the crypt ghast immediately.
Okay I am new to the forum, and this whole clicking the card icon to link cards drives me crazy.
Edit: Always counter tooth and nail and any other tutor to battlefield cards unless you have a stifle for that craterhoof behemoth
I've been playing MTG for over 2 years, almost 3, and I mostly play commander. Recently, I've come to a conclusion that whenever I can, I should stop a tutor spell, be it mystical tutor, demonic tutor, or tooth and nail, Etc... and my reasoning for this is that tutoring is the most powerful thing you can do in magic, drawing cards being the second. Tutoring allows you to get an answer to adapt to a situation at any point, it can win the game, or drag out a game longer. Tutors are extremely powerful. But they also do more than just tutor. They allow you to shuffle your library, which can be extremely beneficial. For example, if you're getting flooded with lands, or not drawing any lands, a fresh shuffle can fix that. It can give the player the opportunity to cheat by stacking their deck, assemble combo pieces and so much more. However, recently I got into an argument with someone about this. They believe it's much better to counter or deal with the card they tutored for and not the tutor. Which begs the question of, to allow someone to tutor, or not to tutor? Can anyone give me some insight on your thoughts?
if you are drawing lands or spells, shuffling your deck will not be a quick fix.
You should not be playing with people who cheat.
If you wait to counterspell the tutor target you also get a 2 for 1.
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Also if you counter a Tutor the card they would have searched out is still in their deck. So countering a Tutor may slow or temporarily stall them out, while countering or eliminating the tutored card can often times be crippling.
If you check the poll results you’ll notice it’s highly in favor of countering/destroying the tutored card((s). What’s even better is, if they cannot cast the tutored card right away, forcing them to discard it, good times.
However, there are situations where countering the Tutor is the correct move. That’s a tactical decision that’ll vary game to game.
Modern: URW Madcap Experiment
Pauper: MonoU Tempo Delver
My EDH Commanders:
Aminatou, The Fateshifter UBW
Azami, Lady of Scrolls U
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed B
Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG
Glissa, the Traitor BG
Arcum Dagsson U
Do you know his deck enough to know what he'll tutor?
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
Statistically, no, it absolutely does not, at least for a sufficiently randomized library. If you're at, say, 50 cards left in your library, and you know that 20 of them are land, the fact that you've just stalled on land for your first few draws does not mean shuffling your library will have any effect. It's the same reason why if you flip a coin and get heads, then flip a coin again, your odds of that second heads are still 1/2. If drawing cards can't be considered randomized, independent events (barring effects such as Vampiric Tutor or Brainstorm), then there's a serious problem with how someone's shuffling.
UBBreya's Toybox (Competitive, Combo)WR
RGodzilla, King of the MonstersG
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UBLazav, Dimir Mastermind (Competitive, UB Voltron/Control)UB
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1. How many cards are getting tutored? If its just one, that leans towards waiting. If its something different like Gifts Ungiven (banned in Commander, but still,m or something that could make Dark Depths/Thespian's stage go off, you'll want to nip that in the bud.
2. Where will the card end up? If its straight to hand (Demonic Tutor) or top of library Vampiric Tutor, you might be better off waiting, for card advantage. If its to the graveyard (Entomb, directly to the battlefield (Tooth and Nail Entwined[/card]), or the deck is clearly recursion based (definitely anything golgari/sultai), take out the tutor unless you have exile capabilities, because whatever it is is safest for you tucked in their library.
3. What are they going to get? This is trickier if you don't know their deck that well, but you can still make resonable guesses. If you have a board full of beaters, they're playing Blue/White, and its a Mystical Tutor, chances are you're about to eat a Supreme Verdict, so you have to stop the tutor. But if its Wrath of God, and you're sitting on the counter, now they're out 5 mana and two cards instead of 1 mana and one card.
4. Be mindful of the dreaded cast trigger. If something that copies spells is in play (Swarm Intelligence, Zada, Hedron Grinder_, stop the tutor (although the tutor might be copied, and now you're really in trouble). Any of the Eldrazi Titans are going to give you a wedgie up the blind eternities before you can so much as reach for an Island. And then there's the propect of Cascade, particularly where Maelstrom Wanderer is concerned. Next thing you know, you're staring at three spells, and god knows what trouble you're goinna be in.,
I guess overall, countering the tutor is the safer play, while countering the fetch can bring better value. At the end of the day though, the right answer lies in reading the board, making an educated guess, and still being prepared to be wrong.
Aww you beat me to it, but yes I completely agree. Unless you have done something within the constraints of the game, you should have no idea what your next card is. Using a tutor in combination with Sensei's divining top is completely different, and might sway me to counter the tutor, if they don't like their next 3 draws.
I was going to suggest just cutting their deck or shuffling their deck. It is completely legal to have the last shuffle of your opponents deck. My friends thought this was not right, and you could only cut, but if someone stacks their deck pregame for a perfect land to nonland ratio, and intentionally does a light shuffle, a simple cut isn't going to change that ratio enough to matter. But absolutely you are right. If this is a problem, this is not the type of player you want in your playgroup.
It usually depends. In 1v1 I would say always counter the tutor since it will either be helping them or hurting you a significant enough amount to go tutor for it. I play commander and usually I am not the biggest threat with my sen triplets deck, which means anything tutored to hurt someone isn't aimed at me, so I'll let it go. And anything they can tutor for to help them I can usually deal with. If I know the deck well enough and someone is going to get something I can't deal with because of deck construction, bad draws, etc. I counter the tutor.
I was playing 1v1 commander this past weekend. My friend had a Glen elendra archmage that he could have used to stop my demonic tutor which got me crypt ghast (which he couldn't counter} which allowed me to ramp into dread cacodemon, and pump out big creatures he couldn't counter to win the game. So yes, in that case, if he had countered my demonic tutor I would not have for sure lost, but I might have. I still think, though, that this was a case of always having to counter the tutor in 1v1 as opposed to always counter the tutor because in a commander game one of my two other opponents would have dealt with the crypt ghast immediately.
Okay I am new to the forum, and this whole clicking the card icon to link cards drives me crazy.
Edit: Always counter tooth and nail and any other tutor to battlefield cards unless you have a stifle for that craterhoof behemoth
if you are drawing lands or spells, shuffling your deck will not be a quick fix.
You should not be playing with people who cheat.
If you wait to counterspell the tutor target you also get a 2 for 1.