In a ideal world, a card should should work as intended and that should always match as was intended to work for his creator. And viceversa.
Unfortunately, the reality is very much different. In Magic, "work as printed" and "work as intended" are two very different concepts, because the rules of this game changes constantly, and what I'm bothered from WotC is that isn't 100% consistent and linear about his policy and philosophy about how cards should work, even after thousands of errata of nowadays.
For example let's talk about the "power level" and "functional" errata, something that today shouldn't exist anymore (that's why Time Vault works today as printed despite being super broken and banned everywhere). But here's the inconsistency and incongruency of erratas policy:
- Phyrexian Dreadnouught for example is a card that for today rules works as printed, but not as intended, because when was printed stack wasn't a thing and it was not possibile to avoid the cost thanks to Stifle. Which is possible today.
- but wait, because we got also Lotus Vale, Scorched Ruins, Mox Diamond and other cards from the same period that got the exact wording of the Phyrexian Dreadnought, and yet were errated with a different criteria, to works as intended but not as printed despite what their abilities means today in modern rules. Why so? Apparently just because Stifling a Dreadnought seemed ok but 2 lands that works as a black lotus was too much. Ah, but so, that was a power level and functional errata, what WotC said to avoid and that's why we have the super-broken Time Vault works just as printed despite being being even arguably much more broken and degenerate than a lotus.
So here's the first problem : cards worded exactly with the same template, from the same period, threated differently in a merely arbitrary way, making literally impossible for players to know how to interpret by their own logic those cards without seeing the gatherer (which is the fail of WotC intent to strictly errata the cards in a way that are much adherent as the original printed text as possible).
Second case : Master of Arms. A card that today works as printed but not as intended, because tapping a creature that is already blocking does absolutely nothing in order to prevent damage, while Master or Arms works in a way that his ability exist exactly why he could "shut down" the creature damages with the old rules, making it completely useless now.
And guess what. WotC now decided to print instead Torpor Orb, Howling Mine and other old artifacts with the "if it's untapped" clause, to match the functionality with the older rules, making this cards works as intended (for Icy Manipulator combos and such), but not as printed
Again, I hate the inconsistency here. Both Master of Arms and Howling Mine have invisibile, non written rules in their original card text that imply things in the old rule system. But for some reasons, WotC had the arbitrary idea to make visibile the invisibile rule system working othe Mine, but not to make visibile the necessary one to give a sense to Master of Arms. Why so? Who knows. Either case, players are, again, confused as hell, because it's just impossibile to tell how should work a card following a strictly, logical and coherent criteria without following the arbitrary messing of wotc erratas.
The last case is probably the worst of all. We have a card that neither does work as printed or as intended today. Is the Flying Carpet. The original text of the card was very clear and simple. There was a part of text that says that if the creature die after was given flying thanks to the carpet, so the carpet should be destroyed. A drawback? Yeah, but very flavorful because it was specifically made for this card in order to give the idea that when you fall or get destroyed from the carpet, the carpet do a bad end too. It was changed after fifth edition apparently just because WotC didn't like the drawback of this specific card, and eliminating the drawback despite exactly zero rules change justifications would allow them to do that. Why of all thousands of extremely crappy and unplayable cards, they choose to give the mercy to take off the drawback of only of Flying Carpet to make it slightly better, is beyond my logic and rational comprehension. And since WotC, after the final errata of Time Vault said that will follow the card as printed avoiding functional power level changes, I don't understand why the carpet still today doesn't have his drswback since that makes it an unnecessary functional power level change, in today errata's policy.
Now, I, for example, don't mind if, because of the new rules, all cards works as intended, or, as I personally prefer, as printed under the new rules paradigm (Reconnneisance now give for example pseudo-vigilance to all your creatures without any drawback despite that's not how the csrd was supposed to work as intended at all when was originally printed), but I just wish that WotC would stay truly consistent with their own policy instead of making often un-necessary contradtictions that just make the the players look as dumbs when asked about those inconsistencies, because they can't see a linear criteria to follow themselves.
Thank you for the replies. Is that implying that you will be ok to have Lotus Vale and Scorched Ruins functionally working as uncounterable black lotus and having them banned in all formats except vintage, which will be then restricted and cost thousand dollars?
Riding the Dilu Horse wording was a misprinting. The pump effect was never intended to last indefinitely. Here's the original FAQ of Portal 3 Kingdoms: Q. Is the bonus from Riding the Dilu Horse permanent?
A. No, because the card should read, "Any one creature gets +2/+2 and gains horsemanship until end of turn."
- So, Riding the Dilu Horse is a misprinted card that has no duration of his effect for mere error, and works exactly as printed but not as intended.
why so? "Because it is important that players can see the cards and understand themselves how the cards works, by just reading them"
- Invert / Invent, Oboro Envoy and others are also, like Riding the Pilu Horse, misprinted cards that has no duration of their effect for mere error, and works exactly as intended but not as printed.
Why so? Because this time, apparently "**** players, we don't pay for our errors, just read the damn gatherer and shut up."
For what reasons I should tell that Riding the Pilu Horse must work as printed but Oboro Envoy not even if they are both misprinted texts? Who knows.
Riding the Dilu Horse wording was a misprinting. The pump effect was never intended to last indefinitely. Here's the original FAQ of Portal 3 Kingdoms: Q. Is the bonus from Riding the Dilu Horse permanent?
A. No, because the card should read, "Any one creature gets +2/+2 and gains horsemanship until end of turn."
- So, Riding the Dilu Horse is a misprinted card that has no duration of his effect for mere error, and works exactly as printed but not as intended.
why so? "Because it is important that players can see the cards and understand themselves how the cards works, by just reading them"
- Invert / Invent, Oboro Envoy and others are also, like Riding the Pilu Horse, misprinted cards that has no duration of their effect for mere error, and works exactly as intended but not as printed.
Why so? Because this time, apparently "**** players, we don't pay for our errors, just read the damn gatherer and shut up."
For what reasons I should tell that Riding the Pilu Horse must work as printed but Oboro Envoy not even if they are both misprinted texts? Who knows.
You could say the same about Rancor, where it was misprinted and was originally meant to cost instead of just . Yet Rancor remains just to this day. It is a double standard for sure but I think WotC switched mentalities and decided it was better to fix mistakes in newer sets and try to allow old cards to be as close to how they were printed as possible.
This is probably a good question to ask MaRo about.
What is the intended with all of these cards? You could pull a card from "removed from game" which also included cards that is by today's terminology, 'exiled'.
You could do some smart things with these wishes. Retrieving a creature exiled by an Oblivion Ring with a Living Wish. Copy a Cunning Wish while its on the stack and then retrieve that Circular Logic and your other copy of Cunning Wish. Swapping Burning Wish/Cunning Wish with a second copy of it and a cost reducer to build storm count. It may even sound sillier, but you could use Ring of Ma'rûf to fetch your already exiled second Ring of Ma'rûf to prevent yourself from actually drawing a new card or an empty library.
How did they lose this functionality? Magic 2010 rules change when the Exile Zone was introduced and separated it from the RFG. But these types of cards weren't updated at the same time, which has caused them to fallen by the wayside. Now only known for their ability to pull a card from either a binder or your sideboard.
But these types of cards weren't updated at the same time, which has caused them to fallen by the wayside.
Burning, Cunning, and to a much lesser extent Living Wish have all seen Legacy play at some point or another. Storm's use of its wishboard is actually somewhat iconic to the format.
But these types of cards weren't updated at the same time, which has caused them to fallen by the wayside.
Burning, Cunning, and to a much lesser extent Living Wish have all seen Legacy play at some point or another. Storm's use of its wishboard is actually somewhat iconic to the format.
Quote from ForgottenPlaneswalker »
But these types of cards weren't updated at the same time, which has caused them to fallen by the wayside. Now only known for their ability to pull a card from either a binder or your sideboard.
The issue was more the "by the wayside" part since seeing real competitive play in the best 60-card format is pretty good.
Sure, because they still have the other functionality it was given originally from its ability to sideboard tutor. Though when I used the idiom of "fallen by the wayside" I am using the first definition "To fail or fall behind at something" which the wishes have fallen behind in their printed usage.
For example, unless you are house ruling for a format such as Commander and are also not in a sanctioned environment, your wish spells don't do anything and have less use than a Swirling Sandstorm that is 1 card away from threshold count. The only exception is Mastermind's Acquisition which acts a redundant copy of Diabolic Tutor. Before Magic 2010 rules change, wishes worked perfectly fine within the format because of their other function of "pull from exile to hand".
The simple solution to Wishes in order to reinstate their intended functionality as printed? Adding two words that are "or exiled". So Burning Wish for example would read: "You may choose a sorcery card you own from outside the game or exiled, reveal that card, and put it into your hand. Exile Burning Wish."
Its technically a functional errata but its also a functional errata to make up for the fact that the Magic 2010 rules change caused a functional errata in the first place.
"Functional errata" are generally bad. I can see why they sometimes do it, like Parallax Wave (which had a combo with Opalescence which basically let you exile your opponent's whole side or blink however many times you wanted) or Marath, Will of the Wild (because it was a one-card infinite combo). So, it's more a matter of when it's okay. I'm less concerned if functional errata happen almost immediately.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
There was also good old Walking Atlas for day 0 errata. In one of the very few sets where a colourless non-artifact creature wouldn't set off a red flag in the review process.
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
What is the intended with all of these cards? You could pull a card from "removed from game" which also included cards that is by today's terminology, 'exiled'.
You could do some smart things with these wishes. Retrieving a creature exiled by an Oblivion Ring with a Living Wish. Copy a Cunning Wish while its on the stack and then retrieve that Circular Logic and your other copy of Cunning Wish. Swapping Burning Wish/Cunning Wish with a second copy of it and a cost reducer to build storm count. It may even sound sillier, but you could use Ring of Ma'rûf to fetch your already exiled second Ring of Ma'rûf to prevent yourself from actually drawing a new card or an empty library.
How did they lose this functionality? Magic 2010 rules change when the Exile Zone was introduced and separated it from the RFG. But these types of cards weren't updated at the same time, which has caused them to fallen by the wayside. Now only known for their ability to pull a card from either a binder or your sideboard.
Oh yeah, about the Ring of Mar'uf this is another, in my eyes, totally unacceptable power level and functional errata. Because, unlike the Wishes, the Ring doesn't simply says to take a card from "outside the game", but it actually explains the difference between cards "removed from inside the game" and "outside the game", stating that it can pick both. So how should that translate in modern magic? To tutor a card from outside the game and that was removed from the battlefield or in any other means. Basically, exactly what Coax from the Blind Eternities already do, but without the eldrazi restriction.
Now, why I think the Ring case is so bad? Because that's another case of a card that doesn't work either as printed or intended.
Does the Ring works as intended? No, because clearly the Ring was intended to grab things from exile, since that's how rules worked out and what designers want that the card did.
Does the Ring works as printed? Neither, because WotC simply totally ignored that Ring says about itself that can grab at least 2 type of cards, and the second category clearly states "or that for some reason has left the game". Clearly this is a statament that can make sense only if it refers on cards that were in the game and then exiled away. WotC totally ignored this.
Another failure of the policy : "because we want that cards works as printed and that players do not have to be confused between different printings or erratas about different functionalities of the same card."
Certain old cards just will not function within moder rules frameworks. Sometimes this is just a function of the wording, other times it’s WOTC getting it “wrong”.
That said, it’s preferable that cards work as written as much as possible. In those cases where older wording and templating were just incorrect with modern templating we simply need to accept Oracle rulings.
For instance I’m OK with the fact that “removed from the game” is now exile and wish effects do not retrieve exiled cards. If that ruins functionality of some cards so be it. In the early days of Magic design and development where primitive by todays standards. Another thing, how cards function in sanctioned play verses casual table-top. In a sanctioned event wish effects have been limited to sideboard, fine it makes sense and keeps it simple. At home at the kitchen table, wish effects will have me digging through binders. I’m perfectly fine with this discrepancy. In casual games if player get some older xards wrong it’s truly not a big deal. In an event a judge should be there to educate, and if you are pmying in sanctioned events where cards like Lotus Vale are legal, it’s on you to get the correct rules down. Gatherer is a Google search away, if you’re playing tournaments you should familiarize yourself with the current rulings of cards you’re playing. If you’re playing casually agree upon a consensus during that game then look it up.
This topic has been hashed over many times before. We have gatherer for a reason.
In an ideal universe cards would play as written, and in many cases older cards do, but where it’s cumbersome or awkward we must default to Oracle, that’s why it’s there.
Magic is complicated as all get out, it’s also been an evolving game, most of the rules chenges have been for the better. Some are net neutral,and some of the changes blow(once again, IMHO), but I ferl that overall, WOTC does try to balance a lot of factors to get the rules/rulings to function as smoothly as possible.
I now feel like I’m going on and on but not making a coherent point, so I’ll excuse my drunk self.
Riding the Dilu Horse wording was a misprinting. The pump effect was never intended to last indefinitely. Here's the original FAQ of Portal 3 Kingdoms: Q. Is the bonus from Riding the Dilu Horse permanent?
A. No, because the card should read, "Any one creature gets +2/+2 and gains horsemanship until end of turn."
- So, Riding the Dilu Horse is a misprinted card that has no duration of his effect for mere error, and works exactly as printed but not as intended.
why so? "Because it is important that players can see the cards and understand themselves how the cards works, by just reading them"
- Invert / Invent, Oboro Envoy and others are also, like Riding the Pilu Horse, misprinted cards that has no duration of their effect for mere error, and works exactly as intended but not as printed.
Why so? Because this time, apparently "**** players, we don't pay for our errors, just read the damn gatherer and shut up."
For what reasons I should tell that Riding the Pilu Horse must work as printed but Oboro Envoy not even if they are both misprinted texts? Who knows.
You could say the same about Rancor, where it was misprinted and was originally meant to cost instead of just . Yet Rancor remains just to this day. It is a double standard for sure but I think WotC switched mentalities and decided it was better to fix mistakes in newer sets and try to allow old cards to be as close to how they were printed as possible.
This is probably a good question to ask MaRo about.
I think there's a difference in misprints of mana costs and misprints of rules text imo. Mana cost is a very numeric thing and represented graphically, both things have a very different feel from editing text.
Unfortunately, the reality is very much different. In Magic, "work as printed" and "work as intended" are two very different concepts, because the rules of this game changes constantly, and what I'm bothered from WotC is that isn't 100% consistent and linear about his policy and philosophy about how cards should work, even after thousands of errata of nowadays.
For example let's talk about the "power level" and "functional" errata, something that today shouldn't exist anymore (that's why Time Vault works today as printed despite being super broken and banned everywhere). But here's the inconsistency and incongruency of erratas policy:
- Phyrexian Dreadnouught for example is a card that for today rules works as printed, but not as intended, because when was printed stack wasn't a thing and it was not possibile to avoid the cost thanks to Stifle. Which is possible today.
- but wait, because we got also Lotus Vale, Scorched Ruins, Mox Diamond and other cards from the same period that got the exact wording of the Phyrexian Dreadnought, and yet were errated with a different criteria, to works as intended but not as printed despite what their abilities means today in modern rules. Why so? Apparently just because Stifling a Dreadnought seemed ok but 2 lands that works as a black lotus was too much. Ah, but so, that was a power level and functional errata, what WotC said to avoid and that's why we have the super-broken Time Vault works just as printed despite being being even arguably much more broken and degenerate than a lotus.
So here's the first problem : cards worded exactly with the same template, from the same period, threated differently in a merely arbitrary way, making literally impossible for players to know how to interpret by their own logic those cards without seeing the gatherer (which is the fail of WotC intent to strictly errata the cards in a way that are much adherent as the original printed text as possible).
Second case : Master of Arms. A card that today works as printed but not as intended, because tapping a creature that is already blocking does absolutely nothing in order to prevent damage, while Master or Arms works in a way that his ability exist exactly why he could "shut down" the creature damages with the old rules, making it completely useless now.
And guess what. WotC now decided to print instead Torpor Orb, Howling Mine and other old artifacts with the "if it's untapped" clause, to match the functionality with the older rules, making this cards works as intended (for Icy Manipulator combos and such), but not as printed
Again, I hate the inconsistency here. Both Master of Arms and Howling Mine have invisibile, non written rules in their original card text that imply things in the old rule system. But for some reasons, WotC had the arbitrary idea to make visibile the invisibile rule system working othe Mine, but not to make visibile the necessary one to give a sense to Master of Arms. Why so? Who knows. Either case, players are, again, confused as hell, because it's just impossibile to tell how should work a card following a strictly, logical and coherent criteria without following the arbitrary messing of wotc erratas.
The last case is probably the worst of all. We have a card that neither does work as printed or as intended today. Is the Flying Carpet. The original text of the card was very clear and simple. There was a part of text that says that if the creature die after was given flying thanks to the carpet, so the carpet should be destroyed. A drawback? Yeah, but very flavorful because it was specifically made for this card in order to give the idea that when you fall or get destroyed from the carpet, the carpet do a bad end too. It was changed after fifth edition apparently just because WotC didn't like the drawback of this specific card, and eliminating the drawback despite exactly zero rules change justifications would allow them to do that. Why of all thousands of extremely crappy and unplayable cards, they choose to give the mercy to take off the drawback of only of Flying Carpet to make it slightly better, is beyond my logic and rational comprehension. And since WotC, after the final errata of Time Vault said that will follow the card as printed avoiding functional power level changes, I don't understand why the carpet still today doesn't have his drswback since that makes it an unnecessary functional power level change, in today errata's policy.
Now, I, for example, don't mind if, because of the new rules, all cards works as intended, or, as I personally prefer, as printed under the new rules paradigm (Reconnneisance now give for example pseudo-vigilance to all your creatures without any drawback despite that's not how the csrd was supposed to work as intended at all when was originally printed), but I just wish that WotC would stay truly consistent with their own policy instead of making often un-necessary contradtictions that just make the the players look as dumbs when asked about those inconsistencies, because they can't see a linear criteria to follow themselves.
Hands to the sky
Give a round of applause
For the great Miss Y!
As printed means quality control sucked, but it more fun for the players who discover it. The downside is that some cards may become useless/broken.
As a player, I prefer as printed.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
Riding the Dilu Horse wording was a misprinting. The pump effect was never intended to last indefinitely. Here's the original FAQ of Portal 3 Kingdoms:
Q. Is the bonus from Riding the Dilu Horse permanent?
A. No, because the card should read, "Any one creature gets +2/+2 and gains horsemanship until end of turn."
And what the currently Oracle Text says about this card? Yes, the bonus from Riding the Dilu Horse is permanent.
- So, Riding the Dilu Horse is a misprinted card that has no duration of his effect for mere error, and works exactly as printed but not as intended.
why so? "Because it is important that players can see the cards and understand themselves how the cards works, by just reading them"
- Invert / Invent, Oboro Envoy and others are also, like Riding the Pilu Horse, misprinted cards that has no duration of their effect for mere error, and works exactly as intended but not as printed.
Why so? Because this time, apparently "**** players, we don't pay for our errors, just read the damn gatherer and shut up."
For what reasons I should tell that Riding the Pilu Horse must work as printed but Oboro Envoy not even if they are both misprinted texts? Who knows.
You could say the same about Rancor, where it was misprinted and was originally meant to cost instead of just . Yet Rancor remains just to this day. It is a double standard for sure but I think WotC switched mentalities and decided it was better to fix mistakes in newer sets and try to allow old cards to be as close to how they were printed as possible.
This is probably a good question to ask MaRo about.
Golden Wish, Cunning Wish, Death Wish, Burning Wish, Living Wish, Glittering Wish, Research // Development, Ring of Ma'rûf.
What is the intended with all of these cards? You could pull a card from "removed from game" which also included cards that is by today's terminology, 'exiled'.
You could do some smart things with these wishes. Retrieving a creature exiled by an Oblivion Ring with a Living Wish. Copy a Cunning Wish while its on the stack and then retrieve that Circular Logic and your other copy of Cunning Wish. Swapping Burning Wish/Cunning Wish with a second copy of it and a cost reducer to build storm count. It may even sound sillier, but you could use Ring of Ma'rûf to fetch your already exiled second Ring of Ma'rûf to prevent yourself from actually drawing a new card or an empty library.
How did they lose this functionality? Magic 2010 rules change when the Exile Zone was introduced and separated it from the RFG. But these types of cards weren't updated at the same time, which has caused them to fallen by the wayside. Now only known for their ability to pull a card from either a binder or your sideboard.
Burning, Cunning, and to a much lesser extent Living Wish have all seen Legacy play at some point or another. Storm's use of its wishboard is actually somewhat iconic to the format.
For example, unless you are house ruling for a format such as Commander and are also not in a sanctioned environment, your wish spells don't do anything and have less use than a Swirling Sandstorm that is 1 card away from threshold count. The only exception is Mastermind's Acquisition which acts a redundant copy of Diabolic Tutor. Before Magic 2010 rules change, wishes worked perfectly fine within the format because of their other function of "pull from exile to hand".
The simple solution to Wishes in order to reinstate their intended functionality as printed? Adding two words that are "or exiled". So Burning Wish for example would read: "You may choose a sorcery card you own from outside the game or exiled, reveal that card, and put it into your hand. Exile Burning Wish."
Its technically a functional errata but its also a functional errata to make up for the fact that the Magic 2010 rules change caused a functional errata in the first place.
On phasing:
On phasing:
Oh yeah, about the Ring of Mar'uf this is another, in my eyes, totally unacceptable power level and functional errata. Because, unlike the Wishes, the Ring doesn't simply says to take a card from "outside the game", but it actually explains the difference between cards "removed from inside the game" and "outside the game", stating that it can pick both. So how should that translate in modern magic? To tutor a card from outside the game and that was removed from the battlefield or in any other means. Basically, exactly what Coax from the Blind Eternities already do, but without the eldrazi restriction.
Now, why I think the Ring case is so bad? Because that's another case of a card that doesn't work either as printed or intended.
Does the Ring works as intended? No, because clearly the Ring was intended to grab things from exile, since that's how rules worked out and what designers want that the card did.
Does the Ring works as printed? Neither, because WotC simply totally ignored that Ring says about itself that can grab at least 2 type of cards, and the second category clearly states "or that for some reason has left the game". Clearly this is a statament that can make sense only if it refers on cards that were in the game and then exiled away. WotC totally ignored this.
Another failure of the policy : "because we want that cards works as printed and that players do not have to be confused between different printings or erratas about different functionalities of the same card."
That said, it’s preferable that cards work as written as much as possible. In those cases where older wording and templating were just incorrect with modern templating we simply need to accept Oracle rulings.
For instance I’m OK with the fact that “removed from the game” is now exile and wish effects do not retrieve exiled cards. If that ruins functionality of some cards so be it. In the early days of Magic design and development where primitive by todays standards. Another thing, how cards function in sanctioned play verses casual table-top. In a sanctioned event wish effects have been limited to sideboard, fine it makes sense and keeps it simple. At home at the kitchen table, wish effects will have me digging through binders. I’m perfectly fine with this discrepancy. In casual games if player get some older xards wrong it’s truly not a big deal. In an event a judge should be there to educate, and if you are pmying in sanctioned events where cards like Lotus Vale are legal, it’s on you to get the correct rules down. Gatherer is a Google search away, if you’re playing tournaments you should familiarize yourself with the current rulings of cards you’re playing. If you’re playing casually agree upon a consensus during that game then look it up.
This topic has been hashed over many times before. We have gatherer for a reason.
In an ideal universe cards would play as written, and in many cases older cards do, but where it’s cumbersome or awkward we must default to Oracle, that’s why it’s there.
Magic is complicated as all get out, it’s also been an evolving game, most of the rules chenges have been for the better. Some are net neutral,and some of the changes blow(once again, IMHO), but I ferl that overall, WOTC does try to balance a lot of factors to get the rules/rulings to function as smoothly as possible.
I now feel like I’m going on and on but not making a coherent point, so I’ll excuse my drunk self.
I think there's a difference in misprints of mana costs and misprints of rules text imo. Mana cost is a very numeric thing and represented graphically, both things have a very different feel from editing text.