Comparing physical vs digital has a bunch of real life hurdles that make them very different.
The simple time and effort to buy product is one.
If you can order any quantity of product and get it instantly, it removes a period of time to cancel your order, a grace period to realize your mistake so to speak.
Ordering physical product also has a set limit in what you can possible store in your home to begin with.
Spending 1000$ on magic cards gives you physical a lot of stuff, if you continue to do that, the hurdles to visible SEE your own addiction (and for anybody else in your family, friends, even your neighbors) is very real.
That does not exist in digital, you are charged with money, you get the stuff immediately, and nobody in your family, friends will notice at all.
You might even not realize what kind of money you spend.
If you buy said product in a store, the limits of the store are also a healthy prevention mechanism, ordering massive online pretty much blurs the lines of digital and physical product quite a bit more (which is the reason people get much more addicted to digital impulsive buying, rather than doing so in the physical world).
Stuff to notice at least.
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Physical cards have actually no value , the value is artificial by the 2ndary market (and can change, crash and explode at any point, as its not really regulated at all, especially not by the cards producers).
There are people that buy magic cards and never play with them. They just open them, look at the arts, and collect the cards.
The "game" is not sold with the booster packs, the "game" is build on top of the cards, as an "extra" so to speak.
For digital lootboxes, its reversed. The "game" is build and lootboxes are on top of the game. Pretty fundamental difference, which matters a lot here (but is easy to oversee).
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If you want to draft with cards, you can re-use the cards you have as many times as you want. Cube and any other form of casual play does exactly that, they are YOUR cards, do whatever you want with them.
You could even just print the cards with your printer and play casually with them, nobody cares for that.
If you want to have the "real" cards, thats what you buy, the cards, they are yours then.
For digital a massive issue is that you dont buy the cards or items, you buy into a SERVICE. You have no rights to resell cards or items, outside of the game these items have no value at all and they are bound to the account and service.
So by nature, in a digital game you pay for a service , not an actual product, and it can be changed at any point, removed from your account, your account be terminated etc.
So for the physical game, you buy a booster pack and you always get the same number of randomized product.
You never lose money by buying a booster pack, you always get the cards ; which happen to have a value on the 2ndary market, but that is not the concern of the producer of the cards (as long as they are clearly not connected to said 2ndary market, which is why this is so important that WotC is not interfering with the 2ndary market in any way, shape or form ; they must be clearly identified as the producer of the product ; even if we are all well aware that this is extremely blurry at best anyway).
Lootboxes are pretty much not different from a slot-machine in a casino at all. It does exactly the same.
You pay money, see a little light show, bling, bling, sounds and your money is wasted.
You can waste a lot more money this way in lootboxes than you can lose in a slot-machine at a casino.
And the casino slot-machines are pretty highly regulated by laws ; so should be digital lootboxes.
Casino slot-machines are not allowed to advertise to children.
Lootboxes are very actively advertised to children (especially as the games themselves are advertised to children in the 1st place).
Implemented social pressure in a game, time pressure (buy it now or get left out), and trying to hide what the product actually costs (especially by using "premium" currency to hide the $ values) , all of that is highly problematic.
All of that does not happen in the physical world, or to a massively reduced proportion ; like shops might run a sell, like every shop does, so thats arguably fine, as long as the sell is not rigged.
To some degree you could say social pressure is produced if especially kids are "lured" into a shop to spend time, get friends there and for whatever reason they buy a lot of booster packs (not that this is realistic at all, but you get the idea).
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By the definition of "gambling" that is like :
Gambling is defined as “the wagering of money or something of value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods.”
Lootboxes and physical trading card games are most of the time not gambling, its just an obfuscated randomized product you receive.
If they would be clearly identified as gambling, both of them would be equally regulated from the start. Well, they are not.
Magic had the issue with "ante" cards at the beginning, which pretty much falls under the gambling problem, so that had to be removed fairly quickly.
Physical cards have actually no value , the value is artificial by the 2ndary market (and can change, crash and explode at any point, as its not really regulated at all, especially not by the cards producers).
...
You never lose money by buying a booster pack, you always get the cards ; which happen to have a value on the 2ndary market
If the market value of the things you open from the pack is less than the cost of the pack, then the overwhelmingly large consensus in any sort of financial discussion would be that it's accurate to say you lost money on it (the money gained from realizing the market value being less than the money lost by buying the pack). Lower of cost or net realizable value is a fundamental method of asset valuation in accounting. It's like if you buy shares in a company and then the share value takes a nosedive. Only it's Tarmogoyf instead of Business Co. Ltd. and there are fewer restrictions on the buying and selling of Tarmogoyf cards.
Trying to go against academic consensus is fine, but the consensus is what it is for a reason so there's a large burden of proof to be had when challenging it. Otherwise it's counterproductive to the discussion to introduce contradictory concepts as inherently true, because it impairs the quality of the discussion that can be had owing to needing to spend more time on basic concepts than observable reality.
You can sell them if you choose to for exactly that value.
If you choose to open them, they are no longer a random product and so the cost of the product is not even connected to the cards inside them.
----
Simply put, you buy 15 randomized cards in a pack for say 3$.
As long as you sell 15 randomized cards in a pack you can get 3$ for it from somebody else.
If you open them, its no longer 15 randomized cards in a pack, its just 15 "not" random cards.
So the value of the specific card is then defined by a 2ndary market depending on if they choose to declare its value.
Its highly artificial as a cards value can be 1 cent or 100$ , or even much more crazy, hey they could be missprints, or you find a specific collector that pays you even much more.
Cards "value" is not regulated at all, and the value of said cards is extremely artificial.
What WotC sells you in booster packs is however just the promise to receive 15 randomized cards (or 14 at this point in time).
The odds and chances for a foil are defined as is the chance to get any specific card and if challenged in court, they had to show that these numbers are correct (as lying about them would be fraud).
We are all perfectly aware that magic cards have a value on the 2ndary market for all intends and purposes you get money for them, so nobody is having any illusion about that.
Still, buying booster product, its your choice to open the product and transform the product by doing so.
Cards "value" is not regulated at all, and the value of said cards is extremely artificial.
This is literally, absolutely everything in a market economy, so your argument doesn't seem to have much point to it. Would you mind explaining how cards are a special case in economic theory?
Cards "value" is not regulated at all, and the value of said cards is extremely artificial.
This is literally, absolutely everything in a market economy, so your argument doesn't seem to have much point to it. Would you mind explaining how cards are a special case in economic theory?
Cars: I can drive them
Guitars: I can play them
Guitars and cars: I can use how I want and can actually do things with them. They have an intrinsic value because of the material of what they are made like wood or metal.
Magic cards: they are made of cardboard and on top of that the DCI can tell how I must use them.
Conclusion: magic cards don't have an intrinsic value
You can use Magic cards however you want. Some people use basic lands and junk commons for things like birdcage lining. You could burn them for heat, as well, I suppose. Ultimately you're not saying "Magic cards are worthless" so much as "cardboard is worthless because it's a material and not a finished good" which doesn't make sense financially, economically, or logically.
You're picking and choosing facts to support a predetermined conclusion. That's a fairly disingenuous approach to take here.
You can use Magic cards however you want. Some people use basic lands and junk commons for things like birdcage lining. You could burn them for heat, as well, I suppose. Ultimately you're not saying "Magic cards are worthless" so much as "cardboard is worthless because it's a material and not a finished good" which doesn't make sense financially, economically, or logically.
You're picking and choosing facts to support a predetermined conclusion. That's a fairly disingenuous approach to take here.
This is a forum I can think and say whatever I want If it doesn't go against the rules.
And no you are wrong. I can't use magic cards how I want. What happens if you go to a modern tournament with four copies of stoneforge mystic?
Compare that with guitars. Nobody can tell me what kind of music I must play. If I go to a guitar jam there won't be a police corp that can tell what I can do with my stuff.
Wizards and the DCI can't tell you how to play Magic outside of sanctioned events. Your kitchen table does not care about Magic tournament rules.
A venue that you want to play your guitar at is perfectly fine to turn you away if they don't like the music you're playing. They don't have to give you a space if they don't want to. But your living room does not care about what you play.
You're willfully framing things with different sets of standards.
This is literally, absolutely everything in a market economy, so your argument doesn't seem to have much point to it. Would you mind explaining how cards are a special case in economic theory?
Wizards and the DCI can't tell you how to play Magic outside of sanctioned events. Your kitchen table does not care about Magic tournament rules.
A venue that you want to play your guitar at is perfectly fine to turn you away if they don't like the music you're playing. They don't have to give you a space if they don't want to. But your living room does not care about what you play.
You're willfully framing things with different sets of standards.
If I go to a metal venue I can play with any kind of electric guitar they don't care if it's a fender or a gibson or a jackson. And your example is wrong because no one can turn you away from a magic tournament if you play bad. They just keep your money and let you play bad.
So if we had a TCG where the official sanction was to let people use their own rules and cards from different games like a card-based Calvinball or something (because kitchen table Magic doesn't count for you, only officially sanctioned tournaments apparently do, ignoring that Magic didn't have sanctioned tournaments when it first came out), then the cards would have some kind of intrinsic economic value that Magic cards don't?
That argument is utterly, irrevocably vacuous from the standpoint of economics and finance. It betrays an ignorance of both subjects and comes across like saying "evolution is only a theory" in a discussion about biology, because such people also refuse to accept that certain terms (in this example, "theory") have academic definitions that don't line up with the lay definition, and attempting to override the academic definition with the lay definition is extraordinarily disingenuous.
Now, I'm not going to pretend that physical trading cards are at all like tapes and discs, but it's at least fair to say that having a robust digital option available to complement the physical option is a good idea for Wizards. The problem is that they'd be better served by fixing up MTGO, not pushing Arena, but as I've said before, Arena is something non-Magic-playing corporate types "understand" more than MTGO, and actually playing the game is beneath most of the higher-ranking decision-makers.
The fear is that the physical option is being pushed out in favor of a robust digital option that isn't designed in a way that's suitable for e-Sports since Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro would have to drastically change Magic in order for it to really take off and If that happens then anyone playing Paper Magic over Arena will have long since quit.
Arena is meant to replace MTGO which is why Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro hired a former Microsoft intern as their CEO to help fix that problem yet at the same time it's biggest problem is most likely going to be loot box regulations and If that doesn't happen then it's only going to hurt the Paper TCG in the long term If they manage to program more formats on Arena.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
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The simple time and effort to buy product is one.
If you can order any quantity of product and get it instantly, it removes a period of time to cancel your order, a grace period to realize your mistake so to speak.
Ordering physical product also has a set limit in what you can possible store in your home to begin with.
Spending 1000$ on magic cards gives you physical a lot of stuff, if you continue to do that, the hurdles to visible SEE your own addiction (and for anybody else in your family, friends, even your neighbors) is very real.
That does not exist in digital, you are charged with money, you get the stuff immediately, and nobody in your family, friends will notice at all.
You might even not realize what kind of money you spend.
If you buy said product in a store, the limits of the store are also a healthy prevention mechanism, ordering massive online pretty much blurs the lines of digital and physical product quite a bit more (which is the reason people get much more addicted to digital impulsive buying, rather than doing so in the physical world).
Stuff to notice at least.
----
Physical cards have actually no value , the value is artificial by the 2ndary market (and can change, crash and explode at any point, as its not really regulated at all, especially not by the cards producers).
There are people that buy magic cards and never play with them. They just open them, look at the arts, and collect the cards.
The "game" is not sold with the booster packs, the "game" is build on top of the cards, as an "extra" so to speak.
For digital lootboxes, its reversed. The "game" is build and lootboxes are on top of the game. Pretty fundamental difference, which matters a lot here (but is easy to oversee).
----
If you want to draft with cards, you can re-use the cards you have as many times as you want. Cube and any other form of casual play does exactly that, they are YOUR cards, do whatever you want with them.
You could even just print the cards with your printer and play casually with them, nobody cares for that.
If you want to have the "real" cards, thats what you buy, the cards, they are yours then.
For digital a massive issue is that you dont buy the cards or items, you buy into a SERVICE. You have no rights to resell cards or items, outside of the game these items have no value at all and they are bound to the account and service.
So by nature, in a digital game you pay for a service , not an actual product, and it can be changed at any point, removed from your account, your account be terminated etc.
So for the physical game, you buy a booster pack and you always get the same number of randomized product.
You never lose money by buying a booster pack, you always get the cards ; which happen to have a value on the 2ndary market, but that is not the concern of the producer of the cards (as long as they are clearly not connected to said 2ndary market, which is why this is so important that WotC is not interfering with the 2ndary market in any way, shape or form ; they must be clearly identified as the producer of the product ; even if we are all well aware that this is extremely blurry at best anyway).
Lootboxes are pretty much not different from a slot-machine in a casino at all. It does exactly the same.
You pay money, see a little light show, bling, bling, sounds and your money is wasted.
You can waste a lot more money this way in lootboxes than you can lose in a slot-machine at a casino.
And the casino slot-machines are pretty highly regulated by laws ; so should be digital lootboxes.
Casino slot-machines are not allowed to advertise to children.
Lootboxes are very actively advertised to children (especially as the games themselves are advertised to children in the 1st place).
Implemented social pressure in a game, time pressure (buy it now or get left out), and trying to hide what the product actually costs (especially by using "premium" currency to hide the $ values) , all of that is highly problematic.
All of that does not happen in the physical world, or to a massively reduced proportion ; like shops might run a sell, like every shop does, so thats arguably fine, as long as the sell is not rigged.
To some degree you could say social pressure is produced if especially kids are "lured" into a shop to spend time, get friends there and for whatever reason they buy a lot of booster packs (not that this is realistic at all, but you get the idea).
----
By the definition of "gambling" that is like :
Lootboxes and physical trading card games are most of the time not gambling, its just an obfuscated randomized product you receive.
If they would be clearly identified as gambling, both of them would be equally regulated from the start. Well, they are not.
Magic had the issue with "ante" cards at the beginning, which pretty much falls under the gambling problem, so that had to be removed fairly quickly.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
If the market value of the things you open from the pack is less than the cost of the pack, then the overwhelmingly large consensus in any sort of financial discussion would be that it's accurate to say you lost money on it (the money gained from realizing the market value being less than the money lost by buying the pack). Lower of cost or net realizable value is a fundamental method of asset valuation in accounting. It's like if you buy shares in a company and then the share value takes a nosedive. Only it's Tarmogoyf instead of Business Co. Ltd. and there are fewer restrictions on the buying and selling of Tarmogoyf cards.
Trying to go against academic consensus is fine, but the consensus is what it is for a reason so there's a large burden of proof to be had when challenging it. Otherwise it's counterproductive to the discussion to introduce contradictory concepts as inherently true, because it impairs the quality of the discussion that can be had owing to needing to spend more time on basic concepts than observable reality.
You can sell them if you choose to for exactly that value.
If you choose to open them, they are no longer a random product and so the cost of the product is not even connected to the cards inside them.
----
Simply put, you buy 15 randomized cards in a pack for say 3$.
As long as you sell 15 randomized cards in a pack you can get 3$ for it from somebody else.
If you open them, its no longer 15 randomized cards in a pack, its just 15 "not" random cards.
So the value of the specific card is then defined by a 2ndary market depending on if they choose to declare its value.
Its highly artificial as a cards value can be 1 cent or 100$ , or even much more crazy, hey they could be missprints, or you find a specific collector that pays you even much more.
Cards "value" is not regulated at all, and the value of said cards is extremely artificial.
What WotC sells you in booster packs is however just the promise to receive 15 randomized cards (or 14 at this point in time).
The odds and chances for a foil are defined as is the chance to get any specific card and if challenged in court, they had to show that these numbers are correct (as lying about them would be fraud).
We are all perfectly aware that magic cards have a value on the 2ndary market for all intends and purposes you get money for them, so nobody is having any illusion about that.
Still, buying booster product, its your choice to open the product and transform the product by doing so.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
This is literally, absolutely everything in a market economy, so your argument doesn't seem to have much point to it. Would you mind explaining how cards are a special case in economic theory?
Cars: I can drive them
Guitars: I can play them
Guitars and cars: I can use how I want and can actually do things with them. They have an intrinsic value because of the material of what they are made like wood or metal.
Magic cards: they are made of cardboard and on top of that the DCI can tell how I must use them.
Conclusion: magic cards don't have an intrinsic value
You're picking and choosing facts to support a predetermined conclusion. That's a fairly disingenuous approach to take here.
This is a forum I can think and say whatever I want If it doesn't go against the rules.
And no you are wrong. I can't use magic cards how I want. What happens if you go to a modern tournament with four copies of stoneforge mystic?
Compare that with guitars. Nobody can tell me what kind of music I must play. If I go to a guitar jam there won't be a police corp that can tell what I can do with my stuff.
A venue that you want to play your guitar at is perfectly fine to turn you away if they don't like the music you're playing. They don't have to give you a space if they don't want to. But your living room does not care about what you play.
You're willfully framing things with different sets of standards.
You seem to agree and claim its absolute true.
So what exactly is your critique at all ?
Outside of totally agreeing to it.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
If I go to a metal venue I can play with any kind of electric guitar they don't care if it's a fender or a gibson or a jackson. And your example is wrong because no one can turn you away from a magic tournament if you play bad. They just keep your money and let you play bad.
That argument is utterly, irrevocably vacuous from the standpoint of economics and finance. It betrays an ignorance of both subjects and comes across like saying "evolution is only a theory" in a discussion about biology, because such people also refuse to accept that certain terms (in this example, "theory") have academic definitions that don't line up with the lay definition, and attempting to override the academic definition with the lay definition is extraordinarily disingenuous.
Arena is meant to replace MTGO which is why Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro hired a former Microsoft intern as their CEO to help fix that problem yet at the same time it's biggest problem is most likely going to be loot box regulations and If that doesn't happen then it's only going to hurt the Paper TCG in the long term If they manage to program more formats on Arena.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta