Sorry if the title sounds like click-bait, but I think it summons up this point pretty good.
In a nutshell, a lot of the clan heroes & leaders went from a pretty high casting cost [CC] (Lavinia of the Tenth with a CC of 5, compared to the recently spoiled Lavinia, w/a CC of 2) to a really low/aggressive casting cost. I love that they are now more easily played, even w/ a smaller power and toughness.
But what, specifically, sparked the change? Was there really a backlash of unhappy players that made enough of a fuss on the second visit to Ravnica or was it the average tcgplayer cost that can show that even among casual players, these guild leaders & heroes still sucked eggs.
I do remember (IIRC) making a few comments that the costs of them were too high for enjoyable play in the past... but I do not remember others also complaining that the costs were too high.
I remember in drafts getting past cards like Emmara Tandris because the cost was waaayyy too high. Even if you were lucky enough to get a land drop on each of the seven first turns, it would still take 7 turns to cast her. By time she came out, your drafted tokens were dead. Now look at Emmara, Soul of the Accord. I wanted a play set of her.
Are there any other theories to why the CC's shot down so low? If you are aware of an article written or thread that existed here or elsewhere, please bring it up [but please, if it is from the 'Salv, don't necro the thread if someone links it).
PS - Goldilocks 'cause it seams WotC R&D got it just right this time (unless you want a little bit more meat on the bone).
While I was looking up Emamra (mostly to get her name right for card-tagging purposes) I found the old post(on the 'Salv) for our into to Emarra [sorry, not going to link it becuase someone who's not on the up & up might necro it] But it did lead me the MaRo's Blogatog that gets into Emmara... since THIS can't be necroed, here it is (check out the comments, shows some of the hatred for CC & ability: http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/48288088338/i-would-just-like-to-say-that-im-very-happy-that
I don't really see it as being kneejerk design based on feedback as much as it being part of the design pendulum swinging back towards more aggressively costed Creatures and cards. As far as power levels go, Kaladesh to Amonkhet to Ixalan and the Core Set were that pendulum swinging from the peak of it's trajectory back down and now we're up on the other side again. Ravnica is filling in the power vacuum that Kaladesh left.
No doubt people were disappointed in a few of the guild leaders and champions last time around, but overall most of them were not bad. I do think Commander has and Brawl have some influence on the lower-costed Legendary Creatures in Ravnica this time around because 1.) When Return to Ravnica was being designed, Commander hadn't manifested itself as being near as popular as it was and they didn't have a good idea yet of what it needed or what players wanted, and 2.) Although Brawl is basically already a dead idea, it no doubt had influence on the mana costs and tuning of Legendary Creatures if only to a limited extent. It feels bad to play an high cost Brawl Commander in Standard when you have very little good ramp to work with.
Anyway, I myself prefer low-cost Commanders so I'm definitely happy. I'm sure something else is that the Guild Leaders/Champions are very important to the plane/setting and Wizards most likely wanted them to be more likely to see play. It's surely part of the optics of their branding and making the story a larger part of their focus with the game. It feels bad when your favorite guild's Champions or Leaders are completely unplayable and over costed. In the recent past they've mentioned that's why cards like Emrakul, the Promised End were tuned so aggressively.
Also in the last two Ravnica sets they have cycles of legendary creatures that had two of each of the guilds mana to play, this time those are now pushed draft uncommon freeing up different mana costs for the cycles.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Also also, there are usually 20 guild legends (this time some were replaced with planeswalkers but there are still going to be 15 total). Not all of those could possibly be winners. Even if a couple of the maze runners were late development fixes (Emmara Tandris and Mirko Vosk, Mind Drinker) with disappointing abilities, that same cycle also gave us Varolz, the Scar-Striped and Tajic, Blade of the Legion.
For whatever the reason, I'm simply glad new Emmara only costed two instead of seven. She's more playable that way, and I have a playset on SCG cart to be ordered. My only complaint is why the soldier tokens that she create cost 1.00$ each, I guess because they are rare?
For whatever the reason, I'm simply glad new Emmara only costed two instead of seven. She's more playable that way, and I have a playset on SCG cart to be ordered. My only complaint is why the soldier tokens that she create cost 1.00$ each, I guess because they are rare?
I order custom tokens from rk post's website for $0.50 each and they're way cooler. Should check it out
The game shifted badly to a problem that 5 mana is pretty much the "top" you want to pay for a creature and at that cost it already is game breaking.
Anything more expensive is just that, more expensive.
There is almost no card in standard at 6+ mana that would matter (control-finishers like Niv-Mizzet and Carnage Tyrant making a big exception, simply because they act as exactly that to counter control-decks that are slow anyway).
----
For legendary creatures the problem of Commander further pushes them into a low mana cost, even 3 and lower to promote Tiny-Leaders and all that.
In Modern and other older formats, the manacost cannot be 5+ , so it further promotes a low manacost to even remotely see any play.
Even from a design standpoint they want the characters to matter in constructed that have more of a story relevance, thats good and bad.
Its IN YOUR FACE constructed value, rather than exploring a set for mechanics and abilities, it trivializes deckbuilding as you really get the decks presented to you without any effort (there are exceptions, but the vast majority of mechanics in a set gets pushed so hard, that decks around that mechanic pretty much build themselves by simply slamming all the cards that are blatantly pushed for everyone to notice).
The old times legends had more flavor to them and they did not focus on being a "guaranteed" constructed card.
So they most of the time didnt matter at all.
I have to say i dislike the 2 mana guildleaders, as it makes the cards just too small to be an actual "leader" of a big guild that has actual power struggles to make the strongest of them the leader ; that just doesnt work with the leader is a tiny 1/3 or 2/2 (even if they have abilities that work nicely with the guild).
But anyhow, its just how they design sets right now and it probably will get pushed into that direction way more before it goes back anytime soon.
For whatever the reason, I'm simply glad new Emmara only costed two instead of seven. She's more playable that way, and I have a playset on SCG cart to be ordered. My only complaint is why the soldier tokens that she create cost 1.00$ each, I guess because they are rare?
I order custom tokens from rk post's website for $0.50 each and they're way cooler. Should check it out
Okay, thanks for the info. Will check it out when I need tokens again. :>
In a nutshell, a lot of the clan heroes & leaders went from a pretty high casting cost [CC] (Lavinia of the Tenth with a CC of 5, compared to the recently spoiled Lavinia, w/a CC of 2) to a really low/aggressive casting cost. I love that they are now more easily played, even w/ a smaller power and toughness.
But what, specifically, sparked the change? Was there really a backlash of unhappy players that made enough of a fuss on the second visit to Ravnica or was it the average tcgplayer cost that can show that even among casual players, these guild leaders & heroes still sucked eggs.
I do remember (IIRC) making a few comments that the costs of them were too high for enjoyable play in the past... but I do not remember others also complaining that the costs were too high.
I remember in drafts getting past cards like Emmara Tandris because the cost was waaayyy too high. Even if you were lucky enough to get a land drop on each of the seven first turns, it would still take 7 turns to cast her. By time she came out, your drafted tokens were dead. Now look at Emmara, Soul of the Accord. I wanted a play set of her.
Are there any other theories to why the CC's shot down so low? If you are aware of an article written or thread that existed here or elsewhere, please bring it up [but please, if it is from the 'Salv, don't necro the thread if someone links it).
PS - Goldilocks 'cause it seams WotC R&D got it just right this time (unless you want a little bit more meat on the bone).
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/48288088338/i-would-just-like-to-say-that-im-very-happy-that
No doubt people were disappointed in a few of the guild leaders and champions last time around, but overall most of them were not bad. I do think Commander has and Brawl have some influence on the lower-costed Legendary Creatures in Ravnica this time around because 1.) When Return to Ravnica was being designed, Commander hadn't manifested itself as being near as popular as it was and they didn't have a good idea yet of what it needed or what players wanted, and 2.) Although Brawl is basically already a dead idea, it no doubt had influence on the mana costs and tuning of Legendary Creatures if only to a limited extent. It feels bad to play an high cost Brawl Commander in Standard when you have very little good ramp to work with.
Anyway, I myself prefer low-cost Commanders so I'm definitely happy. I'm sure something else is that the Guild Leaders/Champions are very important to the plane/setting and Wizards most likely wanted them to be more likely to see play. It's surely part of the optics of their branding and making the story a larger part of their focus with the game. It feels bad when your favorite guild's Champions or Leaders are completely unplayable and over costed. In the recent past they've mentioned that's why cards like Emrakul, the Promised End were tuned so aggressively.
(Also known as Xenphire)
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
I order custom tokens from rk post's website for $0.50 each and they're way cooler. Should check it out
(Also known as Xenphire)
Anything more expensive is just that, more expensive.
There is almost no card in standard at 6+ mana that would matter (control-finishers like Niv-Mizzet and Carnage Tyrant making a big exception, simply because they act as exactly that to counter control-decks that are slow anyway).
----
For legendary creatures the problem of Commander further pushes them into a low mana cost, even 3 and lower to promote Tiny-Leaders and all that.
In Modern and other older formats, the manacost cannot be 5+ , so it further promotes a low manacost to even remotely see any play.
Even from a design standpoint they want the characters to matter in constructed that have more of a story relevance, thats good and bad.
Its IN YOUR FACE constructed value, rather than exploring a set for mechanics and abilities, it trivializes deckbuilding as you really get the decks presented to you without any effort (there are exceptions, but the vast majority of mechanics in a set gets pushed so hard, that decks around that mechanic pretty much build themselves by simply slamming all the cards that are blatantly pushed for everyone to notice).
The old times legends had more flavor to them and they did not focus on being a "guaranteed" constructed card.
So they most of the time didnt matter at all.
I have to say i dislike the 2 mana guildleaders, as it makes the cards just too small to be an actual "leader" of a big guild that has actual power struggles to make the strongest of them the leader ; that just doesnt work with the leader is a tiny 1/3 or 2/2 (even if they have abilities that work nicely with the guild).
But anyhow, its just how they design sets right now and it probably will get pushed into that direction way more before it goes back anytime soon.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Okay, thanks for the info. Will check it out when I need tokens again. :>
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread