I'm surprised this thread is still going on. If Teferi is a real problem, then he would have been banned long ago like the Rampaging Ferocidon in Standard. In Modern there are so many answers for him.
I'm surprised this thread is still going on. If Teferi is a real problem, then he would have been banned long ago like the Rampaging Ferocidon in Standard. In Modern there are so many answers for him.
Wasn't Rampaging Ferocidon banned before it ever showed up in competitive decks because the development team thought it would be too good with the Ramunap Red decks running around? It never once got a chance to see competitive play.
No Teferi's fine. He's a bit pushed sure, but generally fine. I think the "untap two mana" part of his +1 shouldn't exist, as it allows players to always have a counter ready even when they tap out on a turn, but, meh, hes still able to be taken down. If there's a card that shouldn't exist and sums up the "press X to win the game" extreme pushing of recent Magic cards it's Banefire. Man oh man is that card an absolute joke. It's like some guys 10 year old got to design a card and said "cant I just automatically win the game with a card?"
If there's a card that shouldn't exist and sums up the "press X to win the game" extreme pushing of recent Magic cards it's Banefire. Man oh man is that card an absolute joke. It's like some guys 10 year old got to design a card and said "cant I just automatically win the game with a card?"
Banefire? Are you and I thinking of the same card? The one that costs 20R to "win the game outright"?
Because that's not a viable win condition without an infinite mana combo.
If there's a card that shouldn't exist and sums up the "press X to win the game" extreme pushing of recent Magic cards it's Banefire. Man oh man is that card an absolute joke. It's like some guys 10 year old got to design a card and said "cant I just automatically win the game with a card?"
Banefire? Are you and I thinking of the same card? The one that costs 20R to "win the game outright"?
Because that's not a viable win condition without an infinite mana combo.
Huh? It's like the backbone of every red burn deck. Why would you need infinite mana for an unblockable, uncounterable direct burn damage where 1 mana = 1 damage. Can have four in a deck. I have an arena deck that is literally like 45 mountains and 4 banefires, fight with fires and lightening bolts and it's got like a 65% win rate. it's a deck of 3 cards and it wins reliably.
Yes, Banefire is a good card. Yes, decks exist that play it. But it's not even on the same planet as the word "degenerate" because there's no way to avoid dumping a bunch of mana into it in order to win because of the X in the cost. Teferi, Hero of Dominaria is an order of magnitude of a stronger card because he can take over the whole game by himself if he's not answered and he effectively protects himself. Both are, essentially, fair cards, with Teferi being extremely powerful, but I'm baffled that you could possibly think a card that the competitive market has made into $50 is much worse than one that it has made into $4.
Not to mention using Banefire as an example of "recent Magic cards" is wrong considering it was originally released in February 2009 with Conflux. It's nearly a decade old for a game that will be 26 next August.
- No amount of whining about any of the above will ever lead the creators of MtG to change their design philosophies.
In fact whining by players has drastically changed the design philosophies of the Mtg creators.
Its why they dont print Land Destruction anymore, much less reasonable counterspells and so on.
Mechanics that involve a "unfun" gameplay are removed from the game (to a degree or entirely) , they dont print as many hexproof cards anymore, as players just downright hate them (and the few that like them, well, thats the "special" kind ;P).
So you cannot really say that whining wont do anything, while in fact its the very first step that is required to make any change at all, someone has to whine, and if enough people whine about the same stuff, it will effect the game for sure.
Every set has its "Enemy #1" card that is pushed to hard that it is just forced into constructed.
They do that often and more so now with mythic rares.
You dont have to like it, and people will keep whining about these cards, as they are fundamentally designed to do exactly that.
The cards are so pushed that people are FORCED to play them (as they are simply too good to ignore or not play them) , and they can become so oppressive that they change an entire format around them, or their existence makes a deck viable at all, that otherwise wouldnt exist.
If that happens, some players will like the deck as they play it, and others will just hate it.
To some degree its a matter of balance to ensure that not too many players hate the card, as cards that are more universally enjoyed are the generally better product (even WotC stepped down from making cards that are just "bad" for the sake of being bad, today we dont really get these anymore, and thats a good thing, as the number of players that "liked" these bad cards, that are intentionally bad, isnt really relevant at all, and they will like other cards too).
But then again, we get the Intro-Deck Planeswalkers, which are just that, plain terrible planeswalkers, but even their existence is "justified" (even if i think that justification is terrible to begin with).
----
Anyhow ...
Lesson is that whining is not bad, its needed to show what people like or dislike.
And its a currency that shifts the balance of how the future will be done.
If there's a card that shouldn't exist and sums up the "press X to win the game" extreme pushing of recent Magic cards it's Banefire. Man oh man is that card an absolute joke. It's like some guys 10 year old got to design a card and said "cant I just automatically win the game with a card?"
Banefire? Are you and I thinking of the same card? The one that costs 20R to "win the game outright"?
Because that's not a viable win condition without an infinite mana combo.
It is if they are at 5 life and you have 6 mana, or 6 life with 7 mana. But I dont think its broken...
I am returning player, 14 years out of the game, just returned in Core19, playing a lot of Arena and making a couple of decks for modern. In my teens/young adult days, I played from Urza's Saga to Kamigawa block.
The first things I noticed coming back:
1.- Cards are much more expensive, I remember when rishadan port 12 USD was a very expensive card. Now You have 50 USD cards in standard. My Tinker deck costed me 400 and that was top of the line deck for Extended. This is a problem WotC could fix if they printed the masters set even more aggressively, specially to bring down the price of fetchlands which are representing about 50% of the price of a deck.
2.- WotC has made the conscious decision to make the game more focused on the battlefield, more permanent's that matter (PW), better creatures (the jump has been absolutely enormous, old creatures are a joke), blue has been toned down a lot, combos are kept in check harder, drawing is more expensive.
As a result of the second, I find the game for me much more enjoyable, and I do like to play blue control from time to time, creature combat is more rewarding (nevertheless they are printing less combat trick instants), developing the board is now the focus.
So I really welcome their new design choices and how they Push design but also print answers in many cards. Teferi is okay, and I suspect it even wasn't printed for standard but for giving control a chance in modern (where black is dominant it seems) where blue is the weak color, unlike the other eternal formats where it is the best color without question.
I am returning player, 14 years out of the game, just returned in Core19, playing a lot of Arena and making a couple of decks for modern. In my teens/young adult days, I played from Urza's Saga to Kamigawa block.
The first things I noticed coming back:
1.- Cards are much more expensive, I remember when rishadan port 12 USD was a very expensive card. Now You have 50 USD cards in standard. My Tinker deck costed me 400 and that was top of the line deck for Extended. This is a problem WotC could fix if they printed the masters set even more aggressively, specially to bring down the price of fetchlands which are representing about 50% of the price of a deck.
2.- WotC has made the conscious decision to make the game more focused on the battlefield, more permanent's that matter (PW), better creatures (the jump has been absolutely enormous, old creatures are a joke), blue has been toned down a lot, combos are kept in check harder, drawing is more expensive.
As a result of the second, I find the game for me much more enjoyable, and I do like to play blue control from time to time, creature combat is more rewarding (nevertheless they are printing less combat trick instants), developing the board is now the focus.
So I really welcome their new design choices and how they Push design but also print answers in many cards. Teferi is okay, and I suspect it even wasn't printed for standard but for giving control a chance in modern (where black is dominant it seems) where blue is the weak color, unlike the other eternal formats where it is the best color without question.
I started playing around Kamigawa block and the store I had did not play standard or extended but rather had their own rules "Bob's rules", Bob being the owner of the store. Basically Vintage with power 9 being banned as well. So I saw some fun stuff once in a while. Fortunately, it seemed pretty closed to what extended would have been at the time rather than full out vintage most of the time (I believe legacy got its own b and r by then). So I can relate to Magic being less approachable back then than it is now. I kinda find that it is more permanent based tan I would like but it's probably for the better. I am a blue control player though so that does impact it
Anecdotal on Arena:
I defeated an active Teferi with Adamo, the First Fort, a Dauntless Bodyguard and a Vampire token. He was at 1, had Cast Down but there was just too much pressure. Teferi is very strong, but if you can rush their life total (or perhaps sneak an Ixalan's Binding or Conclave Tribunal) you should be fine.
It is five mana and generally tapping out, so there's your opening! Good luck!
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The "Crazy One", playing casual magic and occasionally dipping his toes into regular play since 1994.
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
I think a lot of people are speculating that the release of Ravnica Alliances will be the tipping point that pushes Teferi over the edge. The mana has been keeping him in check in standard for a while, and once his color pairing gets pretty close to perfect mana he has a very good chance of running away with the game. That isn't even looking at the support he might potentially get from the set. That being said, I do not believe that wizards of the coast is going to make a move on Teferi until after the new set releases.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
- No amount of whining about any of the above will ever lead the creators of MtG to change their design philosophies.
You were totally correct until the above statement.
It was whinging about certain philosophies and WOTC data collection that reduced Prison strategies to a sideshow that every now and then slips through the net.Bye-bye landkill. Weak counters and discard, stronger critters all a result of newbies whinging they could not win with their 6/6's for 5 mana while the opponent destroyed their land, hit them with discard or countered it. That is what gave mid range mush and critter combat standards where the best PW shell won.
It was whinging by high profile Pros about Standard having questions > answers that bought about more recent developments where they print more answer cards after the eras of energy and copters et al. where so few answers existed. I have picked up more eternal format answer cards in the last two years than the previous five.
It was whinging about Jace et al that bought a rapid finish (in development terms) to the focus on the story characters.
Internet whinging has done loads to change the way the game has been produced. Its just that the OP is in a group of one whinging, which does rather less. I do agree about the rest of your statement and the sentiment behind it.
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People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
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Spirits
Wasn't Rampaging Ferocidon banned before it ever showed up in competitive decks because the development team thought it would be too good with the Ramunap Red decks running around? It never once got a chance to see competitive play.
Because that's not a viable win condition without an infinite mana combo.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Huh? It's like the backbone of every red burn deck. Why would you need infinite mana for an unblockable, uncounterable direct burn damage where 1 mana = 1 damage. Can have four in a deck. I have an arena deck that is literally like 45 mountains and 4 banefires, fight with fires and lightening bolts and it's got like a 65% win rate. it's a deck of 3 cards and it wins reliably.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
In fact whining by players has drastically changed the design philosophies of the Mtg creators.
Its why they dont print Land Destruction anymore, much less reasonable counterspells and so on.
Mechanics that involve a "unfun" gameplay are removed from the game (to a degree or entirely) , they dont print as many hexproof cards anymore, as players just downright hate them (and the few that like them, well, thats the "special" kind ;P).
So you cannot really say that whining wont do anything, while in fact its the very first step that is required to make any change at all, someone has to whine, and if enough people whine about the same stuff, it will effect the game for sure.
Every set has its "Enemy #1" card that is pushed to hard that it is just forced into constructed.
They do that often and more so now with mythic rares.
You dont have to like it, and people will keep whining about these cards, as they are fundamentally designed to do exactly that.
The cards are so pushed that people are FORCED to play them (as they are simply too good to ignore or not play them) , and they can become so oppressive that they change an entire format around them, or their existence makes a deck viable at all, that otherwise wouldnt exist.
If that happens, some players will like the deck as they play it, and others will just hate it.
To some degree its a matter of balance to ensure that not too many players hate the card, as cards that are more universally enjoyed are the generally better product (even WotC stepped down from making cards that are just "bad" for the sake of being bad, today we dont really get these anymore, and thats a good thing, as the number of players that "liked" these bad cards, that are intentionally bad, isnt really relevant at all, and they will like other cards too).
But then again, we get the Intro-Deck Planeswalkers, which are just that, plain terrible planeswalkers, but even their existence is "justified" (even if i think that justification is terrible to begin with).
----
Anyhow ...
Lesson is that whining is not bad, its needed to show what people like or dislike.
And its a currency that shifts the balance of how the future will be done.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
It is if they are at 5 life and you have 6 mana, or 6 life with 7 mana. But I dont think its broken...
The first things I noticed coming back:
1.- Cards are much more expensive, I remember when rishadan port 12 USD was a very expensive card. Now You have 50 USD cards in standard. My Tinker deck costed me 400 and that was top of the line deck for Extended. This is a problem WotC could fix if they printed the masters set even more aggressively, specially to bring down the price of fetchlands which are representing about 50% of the price of a deck.
2.- WotC has made the conscious decision to make the game more focused on the battlefield, more permanent's that matter (PW), better creatures (the jump has been absolutely enormous, old creatures are a joke), blue has been toned down a lot, combos are kept in check harder, drawing is more expensive.
As a result of the second, I find the game for me much more enjoyable, and I do like to play blue control from time to time, creature combat is more rewarding (nevertheless they are printing less combat trick instants), developing the board is now the focus.
In the old extended days of Necropotence, Yawgmonths Bargain, Replenish, Oath of druids, magic was way less interactive and less accesible to new players.
So I really welcome their new design choices and how they Push design but also print answers in many cards. Teferi is okay, and I suspect it even wasn't printed for standard but for giving control a chance in modern (where black is dominant it seems) where blue is the weak color, unlike the other eternal formats where it is the best color without question.
I started playing around Kamigawa block and the store I had did not play standard or extended but rather had their own rules "Bob's rules", Bob being the owner of the store. Basically Vintage with power 9 being banned as well. So I saw some fun stuff once in a while. Fortunately, it seemed pretty closed to what extended would have been at the time rather than full out vintage most of the time (I believe legacy got its own b and r by then). So I can relate to Magic being less approachable back then than it is now. I kinda find that it is more permanent based tan I would like but it's probably for the better. I am a blue control player though so that does impact it
I defeated an active Teferi with Adamo, the First Fort, a Dauntless Bodyguard and a Vampire token. He was at 1, had Cast Down but there was just too much pressure. Teferi is very strong, but if you can rush their life total (or perhaps sneak an Ixalan's Binding or Conclave Tribunal) you should be fine.
It is five mana and generally tapping out, so there's your opening! Good luck!
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
You were totally correct until the above statement.
It was whinging about certain philosophies and WOTC data collection that reduced Prison strategies to a sideshow that every now and then slips through the net.Bye-bye landkill. Weak counters and discard, stronger critters all a result of newbies whinging they could not win with their 6/6's for 5 mana while the opponent destroyed their land, hit them with discard or countered it. That is what gave mid range mush and critter combat standards where the best PW shell won.
It was whinging by high profile Pros about Standard having questions > answers that bought about more recent developments where they print more answer cards after the eras of energy and copters et al. where so few answers existed. I have picked up more eternal format answer cards in the last two years than the previous five.
It was whinging about Jace et al that bought a rapid finish (in development terms) to the focus on the story characters.
Internet whinging has done loads to change the way the game has been produced. Its just that the OP is in a group of one whinging, which does rather less. I do agree about the rest of your statement and the sentiment behind it.
It's from Conflux. You know what the game was like back then?
Faeries. Then Jund. Then Shards of Alara rotated and Caw-Go ruined Magic again.
All of that dwarfed Banefire completely.
Yea, Magic today is overpowered. Let's just say that. x)