It seems like a lot of us have gotten used to the newer flippy cards, and the old kamigawa ones feel really odd to look at. I think the newer flip design gives a lot of advantages over the older style:
1) more space for the artwork and rules text.
2) Makes the cards much more consistent with the majority of cards currently printed for magic the gathering.
3) It brings new artwork to the cards, which I think would be a benefit since some of the artwork is a little confusing looking.
On the downside...
1) Wizards would have to design a whole new set of artwork for all the flippy cards.
2) No idea where and how they would want to do this refresh.
3) The redesigned cards will likely be worth a lot on the secondary market due to them effectively being a first printing.
Anyone else got any thoughts on this?
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Yeah, looking at the cards again in the binder, the rules are different between the two. I guess if they did a return to kamigawa they'd probably make homages to the older flip cards. Kind of odd I never really thought about the mechanical differences even though the concepts are so similar.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Flip and transform have some significant functional differences so no, they shouldn't change the existing cards.
Have the same opinion. Also, I like how the unique art style of the Kamigawa flip cards... changing them to "transform" instead of "flip" would probably change how the cards are drawn.
They would not make anymore "flip" cards, but they had to at the time as they did not want to change the backside of the cards, which they kicked out of the door at this point in time.
So if they ever wanted more of the cards in a modern form, they would go with transform for sure.
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The flip mechanic looks sweet in art, but it just works so terrible with "tap/untap".
They would not make anymore "flip" cards, but they had to at the time as they did not want to change the backside of the cards, which they kicked out of the door at this point in time.
So if they ever wanted more of the cards in a modern form, they would go with transform for sure.
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The flip mechanic looks sweet in art, but it just works so terrible with "tap/untap".
I'm not a big fan of transform or flip cards due to the issues with sleeves and tapping, as you just mentioned. I think giving the art more breathing room puts the transform cards ahead of the flip cards.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I'm not a big fan of transform or flip cards due to the issues with sleeves and tapping, as you just mentioned. I think giving the art more breathing room puts the transform cards ahead of the flip cards.
The transform cards are fine if they transform just 1 time.
It was truly terrific on the Werewolfs that kept transforming back and forth, THAT was truly annoying.
This is why I always use the checklist cards, and put my actual transformers in clear sleeves. No more issues with transforming, just turn the (sleeved) card over.
I'm not a big fan of transform or flip cards due to the issues with sleeves and tapping, as you just mentioned. I think giving the art more breathing room puts the transform cards ahead of the flip cards.
The transform cards are fine if they transform just 1 time.
It was truly terrific on the Werewolfs that kept transforming back and forth, THAT was truly annoying.
This is why I always use the checklist cards, and put my actual transformers in clear sleeves. No more issues with transforming, just turn the (sleeved) card over.
I think I'm going to do the same thing from now on. Especially with my habit of double sleeving cards. It's pretty rough to have to unsleeve and resleeve a double sleeved card without having to fiddle around for a minute to get the thing back into the sleeve, even with KMC hypermat and perfect fits paired together.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The transform cards are fine if they transform just 1 time.
It was truly terrific on the Werewolfs that kept transforming back and forth, THAT was truly annoying.
Have you seen the "triple" sided cards from Force of Will? Jeremy talks about them in one of his videos when he got a promo from GenCon(?). Side A, then Side B, then you unfold the card to get side C. I'm not even going to venture to guess what kind of a hassle that is if you want to sleeve the damn things.
That said. One of the very first things I did was buy clear backed sleeves and put all my played double sided cards in them. I bought a pack of 100 and I still haven't used up all the first pack yet. I guess I don't play with double sided cards very much.
For transform cards. I have a duplicate card in a different color sleeve with the transformed side in front. One of my decks use Westvale Abbey in FNM, have an Ormendahl Profane Prince in different color sleeve to place on top of the abbey if it transforms.
Things like double faced cards makes me think Wizards has stopped thinking about paper Magic when designing new cards and mechanics.
I mean, mtg is a card game played with decks of cards and a double faced card is a card that can’t be used on a regular deck. You either need to use it inside a sleeve with an opaque back or use a placeholder card instead.
I’m not questioning the merits of double faced cards but, from the practical point of view, I think they've jumped the shark a bit here.
Long gone are the days you could just pack 2 decks of cards and take them with you anywhere and play with them whenever you wanted to, without too much fuss. Now there seems there’s just too much baggage, and don’t get me started on the complex tokens with activated abilities and more stuff that shouldn’t be on a token.
Flip and transform have some significant functional differences so no, they shouldn't change the existing cards.
With the exception of a few cards that specifically interact with transform like Bound by Moonsilver and Moonmist, there is no real difference between the two mechanics. If you take any flip card and replace the word "flip" with "transform" the cards are functionally identical. Granted I only checked this on a small handful of flip cards on Gatherer, so if there is some weird corner case I may have missed it, but I'm fairly certain every flip card works the same way.
If they really wanted to, WotC could just bite the bullet and errata every flip card to be a transform card if they ever wanted to do new printings. It would be mildly confusing if you weren't aware of it, but is it really any more confusing than seeing a card with the creature type "Summon Uncle Istvan" or having to double check which cards can hit planeswalkers now that the redirect rule has been removed? I really don't think so.
I'm not a big fan of transform or flip cards due to the issues with sleeves and tapping, as you just mentioned. I think giving the art more breathing room puts the transform cards ahead of the flip cards.
The transform cards are fine if they transform just 1 time.
It was truly terrific on the Werewolfs that kept transforming back and forth, THAT was truly annoying.
This is why I always use the checklist cards, and put my actual transformers in clear sleeves. No more issues with transforming, just turn the (sleeved) card over.
Flip and transform have some significant functional differences so no, they shouldn't change the existing cards.
With the exception of a few cards that specifically interact with transform like Bound by Moonsilver and Moonmist, there is no real difference between the two mechanics. If you take any flip card and replace the word "flip" with "transform" the cards are functionally identical. Granted I only checked this on a small handful of flip cards on Gatherer, so if there is some weird corner case I may have missed it, but I'm fairly certain every flip card works the same way.
If they really wanted to, WotC could just bite the bullet and errata every flip card to be a transform card if they ever wanted to do new printings. It would be mildly confusing if you weren't aware of it, but is it really any more confusing than seeing a card with the creature type "Summon Uncle Istvan" or having to double check which cards can hit planeswalkers now that the redirect rule has been removed? I really don't think so.
Clones are a big thing that shows there is a fundamental difference between the two.
What happens if you clone a flipped Budoka Gardener which is a Dokai, Weaver of Life? You get a Budoka Gardener. Flipped is a status like being tapped, so it is not copied.
What is the mana cost of a Ravager of the Fells? It doesn't have one (so it doesn't contribute to Devotion). It does have a CMC based on the front face but that is not the same thing.
What is the mana cost of a Dokai, Weaver of Life? It is 1G. The same as the Gardner.
These are just 2 instances where there is a significant difference between the 2 "forms". There are more than likely others that I don't want to research.
These are just 2 instances where there is a significant difference between the 2 "forms". There are more than likely others that I don't want to research.
This is true. You got me. To be fair, though, standardizing how these interactions work across both flip cards and DFCs wouldn't exactly be the worst thing in the world.
Realistically though WotC is never going to do any of this. There's simply no reason for them to other than it is moderately more convenient and aesthetically pleasing for players. That's not good enough for them to make functional errata to cards that see barely any play.
These are just 2 instances where there is a significant difference between the 2 "forms". There are more than likely others that I don't want to research.
Another difference is turning the card face-down. If someone plays Ixidron, a Budoka Gardener or Dokai would be turned face-down, becoming a 2/2 with no abilities. A DFC like Huntmaster/Ravager, however, cannot be turned face down. (Although it can be manifested.)
The transform cards are fine if they transform just 1 time.
It was truly terrific on the Werewolfs that kept transforming back and forth, THAT was truly annoying.
Have you seen the "triple" sided cards from Force of Will? Jeremy talks about them in one of his videos when he got a promo from GenCon(?). Side A, then Side B, then you unfold the card to get side C. I'm not even going to venture to guess what kind of a hassle that is if you want to sleeve the damn things.
That said. One of the very first things I did was buy clear backed sleeves and put all my played double sided cards in them. I bought a pack of 100 and I still haven't used up all the first pack yet. I guess I don't play with double sided cards very much.
Oh yeah, the colossal rulers. They are discontinuing them because hardly anyone ever lives long enough to even get to the colossal side. It was a historic event when the GP a few years back actually had a player get to a third judgement.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
They will not functionally errata cards like this unless they absolutely have to.
If we ever go back to Kamigawa, then I suspect flip cards will become 2-sided cards for every reason you stated. It is simply a cleaner, better design for the mechanic.
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1) more space for the artwork and rules text.
2) Makes the cards much more consistent with the majority of cards currently printed for magic the gathering.
3) It brings new artwork to the cards, which I think would be a benefit since some of the artwork is a little confusing looking.
On the downside...
1) Wizards would have to design a whole new set of artwork for all the flippy cards.
2) No idea where and how they would want to do this refresh.
3) The redesigned cards will likely be worth a lot on the secondary market due to them effectively being a first printing.
Anyone else got any thoughts on this?
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Art is life itself.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Have the same opinion. Also, I like how the unique art style of the Kamigawa flip cards... changing them to "transform" instead of "flip" would probably change how the cards are drawn.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
So if they ever wanted more of the cards in a modern form, they would go with transform for sure.
----
The flip mechanic looks sweet in art, but it just works so terrible with "tap/untap".
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
I'm not a big fan of transform or flip cards due to the issues with sleeves and tapping, as you just mentioned. I think giving the art more breathing room puts the transform cards ahead of the flip cards.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
It was truly terrific on the Werewolfs that kept transforming back and forth, THAT was truly annoying.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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I think I'm going to do the same thing from now on. Especially with my habit of double sleeving cards. It's pretty rough to have to unsleeve and resleeve a double sleeved card without having to fiddle around for a minute to get the thing back into the sleeve, even with KMC hypermat and perfect fits paired together.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Have you seen the "triple" sided cards from Force of Will? Jeremy talks about them in one of his videos when he got a promo from GenCon(?). Side A, then Side B, then you unfold the card to get side C. I'm not even going to venture to guess what kind of a hassle that is if you want to sleeve the damn things.
That said. One of the very first things I did was buy clear backed sleeves and put all my played double sided cards in them. I bought a pack of 100 and I still haven't used up all the first pack yet. I guess I don't play with double sided cards very much.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
I mean, mtg is a card game played with decks of cards and a double faced card is a card that can’t be used on a regular deck. You either need to use it inside a sleeve with an opaque back or use a placeholder card instead.
I’m not questioning the merits of double faced cards but, from the practical point of view, I think they've jumped the shark a bit here.
Long gone are the days you could just pack 2 decks of cards and take them with you anywhere and play with them whenever you wanted to, without too much fuss. Now there seems there’s just too much baggage, and don’t get me started on the complex tokens with activated abilities and more stuff that shouldn’t be on a token.
Works ok online. On paper, not so much.
If they really wanted to, WotC could just bite the bullet and errata every flip card to be a transform card if they ever wanted to do new printings. It would be mildly confusing if you weren't aware of it, but is it really any more confusing than seeing a card with the creature type "Summon Uncle Istvan" or having to double check which cards can hit planeswalkers now that the redirect rule has been removed? I really don't think so.
Yep, thats how I do it with Thing and Delver.
Spirits
What happens if you Clone a trnasformed Huntmaster of the Fells? You get a Ravager of the Fells since that is the side that exists.
What happens if you clone a flipped Budoka Gardener which is a Dokai, Weaver of Life? You get a Budoka Gardener. Flipped is a status like being tapped, so it is not copied.
What is the mana cost of a Ravager of the Fells? It doesn't have one (so it doesn't contribute to Devotion). It does have a CMC based on the front face but that is not the same thing.
What is the mana cost of a Dokai, Weaver of Life? It is 1G. The same as the Gardner.
These are just 2 instances where there is a significant difference between the 2 "forms". There are more than likely others that I don't want to research.
Realistically though WotC is never going to do any of this. There's simply no reason for them to other than it is moderately more convenient and aesthetically pleasing for players. That's not good enough for them to make functional errata to cards that see barely any play.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Oh yeah, the colossal rulers. They are discontinuing them because hardly anyone ever lives long enough to even get to the colossal side. It was a historic event when the GP a few years back actually had a player get to a third judgement.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
If we ever go back to Kamigawa, then I suspect flip cards will become 2-sided cards for every reason you stated. It is simply a cleaner, better design for the mechanic.