The Silver Showcase has, once again, brought the pros and cons of playing magic professionally to the forefront of conversation. For those that do not know, Brian Bran-Duin posted one of the first articles criticizing the decision, and other pros and generic e-celebs (yes, my biases will leak into the writing) have chimed in over the course of the past couple of weeks. For those unaware, WOTC is planning to add to its twenty-fifth anniversary celebrations by having an eight-player rochester beta draft where the last place player will get $12,500. Half of those eight invited are current pros. The other half are people who are either former pros or hearthstone streamers. So to start, I do want to clarify my stance on this event:
I think doing a beta rochester draft is just plain stupid. Many cards are poorly worded. Rochester draft is a weird format that even many current players wouldn't recognize if they saw it (I had to look it up when I read about this event). The only reason to do this is for the excitement of seeing a pack opened to reveal a super expensive card. However, that feeling of awe is quickly going to fade for many viewers, because all cards are being auctioned for charity. While certainly a good cause, it removes a significant portion of the stakes and that lottery feeling that sells booster packs.
That's a generic complaint. The complaint at the pro level can be summarized like so: competitive magic is virtually impossible to turn into a profit, yet four people with no current connections to the game are going to win more in a single invitational than most people would win grinding grand prix for a year. This is reminiscent of the "pay the pros" silliness, where random fans actually rooted for WOTC to keep paying people just to show up to events. These four are not the problem. Hell, two of them, Brian Kibler and David Williams, were prominent pro mtg players who left for greener pastures in Hearthstone and poker, respectively. That is a flaw of the game, its viability as an e-sport, and the current crop of pro players. It is not a flaw of Kibler, Williams, Amaz...and that other guy.
The flaw is with the existing pros. First of all, as I type this I checked out MtG on twitch. The top stream right now is Day9tv, a hearthstone channel with 3,335 people watching at this moment. The next highest is a fairly well established pro, Todd Stevens at 1,045. Streams are arguably the most profitable way to play a game professionally, due to low overhead, no travel costs, and the ability to market yourself as the product as much, if not moreso, than the game itself. If it was just about any given game, you would not see the same streamers even at the top five games streamed consistently getting by far the most views. Those people get to the top through brilliant branding of their personalities and ability as entertainers. That's ImaQTPie, that's Tyler1, that's Amaz, that's Ninja. The average pro player is as entertaining as a sack of carrots. There is little entertainment, little branding, and the free market reflects that. Why does that happen?
Personally? I don't assume that these men and women are naturally dull. I think a big part of it is that they take the game way too seriously. You can afford to be serious if the competition creates the attention for you by way of a million dollar plus prize pool. Then people will just be entertained by high level play because they know the difference between a win and a loss can be tens of thousands of dollars or more. Those tournaments don't exist, at least not yet. And if Gabriel Nassif is going to stream random competitive MTGO leagues, or anyone else, a level of showmanship is required that these guys simply lack. To be very blunt, there is no mtg pro who is an actual draw at this time. Nobody has a following that brings tens of thousands of people into an MtGArena constructed ladder marathon. That's their fault, so it is just wrong to get mad at WOTC for realizing that hearthstone players have more charisma and more value in terms of PROMOTION.
As for the silver showcase having too much prize money? Well, Mr. BBD, and all other pros who whined, the prize structure has been this way for ages. If you continue to claim this is your profession while also saying that at best you break even, that is entirely on you. Play hearthstone. Play poker. Play Overwatch. Leverage your abilities into something more profitable. There is no nobility in doing something for a loss while self-flagellating when the company who makes the game makes it very clear that you aren't that important. You're not. You're not a star. Either become one through your own means or step aside. We live in an era where youtube, twitch, and newer less corporate platforms like *****ute and gab and making it easier than ever to develop a cult of personality. If you want more money, stop waiting for WOTC to pay up. They won't.
There are definitely other issues that limit pro MtG besides players' lack of personality. Cheating is a problem, as is political back-room dealings for placement during events' swiss rounds. What tension can there be in a major tournament where six of the top eight playoff spots are determined two rounds early via intentional draws? You don't see that anywhere else. Oh, and let's not forget the arrogance that is "pro equity." These topics are far more controversial, though, and I will set them aside.
Do we have solutions? Or is it best that the concept of a pro Magic player turn to ash and remain that way for the rest of time?
Solutions definitely exist. Arena might help. I don't play it (still waiting on a Mac client...). But clearly it is designed with e-sports in mind by way of its presentation. The emergence of bigger personalities might. Bigger tournament payouts would, and I bet a lot of people here would be willing to pay $5 for some promotional tokens or other items if they knew that some of the proceeds would be added to the next pro tour payout. Hell, I'd pay more to play in a grand prix if it went to payouts instead of hiring youtube creators to show up for panels. I will not drive a hundred miles, let alone more, just to see...well my favorite creators wouldn't be found there anyways.
Do you care about any particular pros? Would you stop watching tournaments if any pro or pros said "I'm done with this game?" Do you disagree with my assessment that the silver showcase is just a free market reflection of the lack of promotional ability and value of MtG pros? Pardon me, but I'm sick of these guys *****ing. Far as I am concerned, they are entitled children who want everyone to love them as much as they love themselves.
Would you stop watching tournaments if any pro or pros said "I'm done with this game? NO
Do you disagree with my assessment that the silver showcase is just a free market reflection of the lack of promotional ability and value of MtG pros? NO I don't disagree.
If someone paid me just to show up and play a game I'd be over the moon.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Do not watch pro play, nor pay any real attention to that scene.
The closest that I care is checking out what are top decks so I can understand market values.
I have watched so pro play in the past, It's as exciting as paint drying.
There's a culture and attitude among pro players that is frankly distasteful.(I'm not going to get into that here)
I'm not too sure how valuable pro play actually is to the game. I play in many circles and venues, and the vast majority of players I encounter
either don't know, or don't care about pro play. The only exception is the few local guys that somehow think they're going to place at a major event.
So other than try-hards net decking and card prices, what does pro play add to the game. I would say visibility cannot be a factor here.
All that said, I actually don't care one way or another about pro play and what WOTC does regarding it.
Back in the mid '90s I had the dubious pleasure of playing some multiplayer magic with a couple of pros, they'd forgotten the concept of playing for fun.
That just seems miserable to me, and pro players these days, from what little I have garnered, seem like a miserable lot.
Putting emphasis on a handful of "pros" actually makes tournament magic way more boring for me.
I want to see new people all the time, not the same old faces over and over again.
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One of magics biggest strength is to meet new people in almost every game you play (if you play in Grand Prix and such).
If you play locally you will have your "friends" around all the time, and in the Pro scene, you kinda get a local store event just over the world with the same guys playing each other.
Its kinda ironic that a collective of pro players simply emulates a local game store.
For every Efro or Turtenwald, there's a Duke or Manfield (I dont know them personally but by all accounts theyre great guys). Jerks exist in every profession, game, walk of life, etc. I tune in to most of the live event streams from SCG/GP, but its certainly not for any one person. Its because I enjoy watching gameplay and watching the best in the world is a valuable teaching tool which in turn can help make me a better player.
Having said all that, I find the the fact that anyone cares what these ppl say, think, & do outside the realm of actual gameplay to be absurd. All the things in the world worth concerning yourself with and this has to be one of them?
I found the Rochester draft to be very entertaining.....because those were the cards I began playing with when I learned the game. Nostalgia tends to put a smile on peoples faces. I could care less who was invited, why, what they did or didnt win.
And FWIW, most of the "pros" I grew up on arent around any more or dont play very frequently. I still watch
I absolutely love Magic, but watching other people play it on the internet is the most boring thing imaginable. I've encountered a couple pros when I go to the occasional large event. Some are fine, but others think that you should give a ***** about them. I definitely do not.
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Can you name all of the creature types with at least 20 cards? Try my Sporcle Quiz! Last Updated: 6/29/20 (Core Set 2021).
I like BBD, one of the most sane voices out there, but he is way off the mark here. He favours meritocratic entitlement over promotion of the game. Fine. But there is no meritocratic entitlement of particular pay for anyone at any level. Nobody has a statutory right to be paid more than another in any job no matter how much effort they put in or how good they are at it, and mtg here reflects the real world where sometimes people get jobs based not on their achievement but other factors, as is the case here where the players are chosen for their advertising potential.
When they made the pro scene as it is today they really hurt old style pros who had a job. It really sucked and probably took the game in the wrong direction, and it hurt good players who had given a lot but ultimately WOTC call the tune. The players are not like sports stars who generate advertising and ticket revenue, where they can move from club to club to play, it is not that kind of market.
I played in the days where amateurs could win big (I have had the plane and hotel package thanks to WOTC), I was annoyed as the game went away from that as I was when ranking points went. In fact I sold out of Standard and turned to finance as a consequence and made a lot of money off of that whilst growing my own local eternal scene. In other words my skills and effort went elsewhere away from playing, and the disenfranchised pros could do the same here, many already do, the playing of the market by some players with both inside info and collections is probably very big. Most pros are well known for content as much as anything, and WOTC only need but a few all time pro names on their books, their employees generate content that pros cannot, such as making magic on daily mtg.
If we are honest mtg pro scene + internet= solved standard. Maybe standard would always be solved without pros, but not as quickly, so it is difficult to see what benefit the pros have there; I never bought the aspirational players grinding to the pro tour and thus generating sales argument, their effect on sales in this day and age is negligible compared to that of casuals, amateurs playing at a FNM to small event level, or commander.
In particular the way in which people since day one team up beyond simple testing and actually get information on who is on what at events and, at times, ask for concessions, really sticks in the throat and generates ill feeling. ID-ING towards the end of an event influenced by desires to get team mates in really looks underhand and us not replicated in most sports. Now much of this would happen without pro players, of course, but it really gets exacerbated and legitimised by the pro culture.
I think the future of pro play, especially standard, will head towards more official team events,whilst SCG have the sort of support that will generate sales without selling the pro idea in the way it has been sold in the past.
I am okay with ID'ing for prize splits. You were the top two at FNM? You earned the right to split and play for fun. ID'ing for top 8 disgusts me, and I'm going to an event with top 8 cut tomorrow where I am seriously considering not doing it out of an ethical stance. I refused in such a case about a year ago and everyone around me looked at me like I was the devil until I relented. I hate that practice, because people only acknowledge that it gets someone INTO top 8 while ignoring that it automatically removes someone FROM the top 8 cut. Those players should have to walk over to the latter's match and say "oh don't worry, your match has been rendered meaningless by our politicking."
All the current pro club structure also has done is create a group of entitled men and women who think they matter. I actually give SCG some credit for having the presentation and personality on commentary to pull similar numbers as WOTC-backed events, which you would think have far more resources available.
Amen, it's a free country and the pros can whine all they want about pay. The bottom line, though, is they are the ones who decided to make their entire life about this game and depend on it for financial stability. I think its a pretty foolish decision to put your livelihood in a niche skill and an organization that really has no contractual obligation to your welfare. But apart from my personal opinion, let reality come to bare the truth.
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Standard:
N/A
Modern:
Grishoalbrand / Grixis Death's Shadow / Jeskai Control / UW Control
I absolutely love Magic, but watching other people play it on the internet is the most boring thing imaginable. I've encountered a couple pros when I go to the occasional large event. Some are fine, but others think that you should give a ***** about them. I definitely do not.
I actually have more fun watching EDH/Commander games in the type of format that's played by The Command Zone and LoadingReadyRun on YouTube instead of watching a Pro Tour Match being streamed on Twitch because it's actually more enjoyable to watch when players are actually having fun playing Magic instead of taking it too seriously while getting away with cheating where the Judges don't do anything about it.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
I mean, merit really isn't a promoted value in our society and most competitive players win more by cheating or making their opponents cheat on accident then crying for a judge. The entertainment value just isn't there. It's infinitelly more entertaining to watch Stephen Green bully Justin Parnell in Commander Vs. or Tomer whine at Seth in Commander Clash, and even their most viewed videos are just barely six digits long.
Being a bit harsh on judges, they take cheating very seriously, but what player A defines as cheating is not what player B does.
Take one sport- Cricket. You hit the ball with a fine nick along the edge of the bat, it is caught- you know you are out, but entitled to stand your ground and wait for the umpire to give you out, it is not considered cheating to do so, even though you are out and you know it. Same sport, you are bowling and interfere with the ball to make it move around, that is cheating, and comes with year long bans. Unless you are polishing it, which is fine. Apparently. Very fine lines as to what is ethical/cheating.
Mtg terms- you miss your Tabernacle triggers, your board gets wiped as the opponent calls a judge and they enforce the rules at comp REL. Did the opponent cheat you? At FNM you can forget and they get put on the stack and that army of your stays. In fact you can draw your card and look to see if it is worth paying and the judge can prove nothing and will not punish you, just go back and rewind to the triggers. Some players miss Tabernacle triggers at FNM and scoop their men up, others just rewind. Personally I feel cheated any time anyone good misses their triggers at FNM and rewinds- I have seen GP top 8ers do it to me. On the other hand at comp REL a player in sight of winning the game has wrathed themselves and may well consider the punishment not fitting to the crime of missing a trigger (technically many triggers), especially if they did not realise the triggers become theirs.
Id ing is the same. You can get dq'd for ID-ing and saying "split?" to a single opponent, or even joking "I just want the win, don't care about boosters, you can have mine and my house as long as I win the trophy " but 4 players saying "can we split and not play in a top 4 knockout" is apparently OK. On the other hand a 3 round draft with two players on 6 saying "id?" is fine, as long as you don't say "ID and split". It is all fine lines.
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People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
Actually no, I'm willing to make the judgment call of "all IDs should be banned." Same with forfeits. That's why MtG will never be a viable esport - there is no other competition where players are allowed and even encouraged to stop playing.
Actually no, I'm willing to make the judgment call of "all IDs should be banned." Same with forfeits. That's why MtG will never be a viable esport - there is no other competition where players are allowed and even encouraged to stop playing.
Chess? I can't imagine a judge forcing grandmasters to continue playing a game with an outcome decided a dozen moves before checkmate. I would like to differentiate turn-based strategy games from games that earn the "esport" title from real-time, sometimes team-based gameplay. The real reason why Magic will never be a sport is that it doesn't even pretend at athleticism.
I absolutely love Magic, but watching other people play it on the internet is the most boring thing imaginable. I've encountered a couple pros when I go to the occasional large event. Some are fine, but others think that you should give a ***** about them. I definitely do not.
I actually have more fun watching EDH/Commander games in the type of format that's played by The Command Zone and LoadingReadyRun on YouTube instead of watching a Pro Tour Match being streamed on Twitch because it's actually more enjoyable to watch when players are actually having fun playing Magic instead of taking it too seriously while getting away with cheating where the Judges don't do anything about it.
Oh yeah. I actually agree. I kinda forgot about that angle when I made my original comment. I was really thinking of GPs and Opens. I definitely enjoy Game Knights, especially when it's just four people that brought their own decks as opposed to "Game Knights with C18 commanders/M19 commanders, etc."
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Can you name all of the creature types with at least 20 cards? Try my Sporcle Quiz! Last Updated: 6/29/20 (Core Set 2021).
Actually no, I'm willing to make the judgment call of "all IDs should be banned." Same with forfeits. That's why MtG will never be a viable esport - there is no other competition where players are allowed and even encouraged to stop playing.
Chess? I can't imagine a judge forcing grandmasters to continue playing a game with an outcome decided a dozen moves before checkmate. I would like to differentiate turn-based strategy games from games that earn the "esport" title from real-time, sometimes team-based gameplay. The real reason why Magic will never be a sport is that it doesn't even pretend at athleticism.
You misunderstand. That's a scenario where the result is an inevitability. I'm talking about going into round six of a pptq and eight people figuring out "oh okay if we just skip the match and claim we tied we advance" and effectively ending the event one round early. I'm talking about EFro asking a stranger to forfeit so he can enter the top 8, then getting angry when that total stranger refuses.
Actually no, I'm willing to make the judgment call of "all IDs should be banned." Same with forfeits. That's why MtG will never be a viable esport - there is no other competition where players are allowed and even encouraged to stop playing.
Chess? I can't imagine a judge forcing grandmasters to continue playing a game with an outcome decided a dozen moves before checkmate. I would like to differentiate turn-based strategy games from games that earn the "esport" title from real-time, sometimes team-based gameplay. The real reason why Magic will never be a sport is that it doesn't even pretend at athleticism.
You misunderstand. That's a scenario where the result is an inevitability. I'm talking about going into round six of a pptq and eight people figuring out "oh okay if we just skip the match and claim we tied we advance" and effectively ending the event one round early. I'm talking about EFro asking a stranger to forfeit so he can enter the top 8, then getting angry when that total stranger refuses.
Those are 2 different scenarios.
In scenario 1, the players with the records that allow them to Intentional Draw into the top 8 earned those records during the tournament. I say this even as being that guy at 4-1 that usually has to play it out because my opponents didn't do too well, so I have poor tiebreakers. I have had to play it out at Comp REL tournaments twice recently, once winning the win-and-in (and winning the tournament) and once losing the win-and-in to fall to 4-2. It happens. I can't really complain unless I am winning every single match. This is also the case even if I lost other matches to what I perceive as variance. Doesn't matter. Variance is what Magic is about.
In scenario 2, Eric Froelich is just being a big pile of steaming *****. I personally don't like the guy. My friend was banned for 2 years from Magic by Helen Bourgeot for making a comment about EFro being salty, which he is, on Twitter. Stupid stuff... Mark Jacobson had every right to play it out and I would do the same. I do know players that have conceded to Pro Players who need a single Pro Point for Silver, or claim that they do. I most likely wouldn't, but it's a case by case basis. EFro dug his grave when he made that article. He never should have done that. It reflects terribly on the game of Magic, but guess what? Not everyone is EFro. There are always going to be douchenozzles in any kind of game and in Magic, you sometimes have to do something that 10 people looking on don't like just so you can win. That's the game.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
FCG, I'd argue in scenario 1 that the only thing those players earned was the right to play for the top 8 in the final round. The ID is a terrible tool, and while I certainly understand the desire to use what tools are available, it is anti-competition. You earned the right to ID? Sure, within the rules, that just tells me the rule is stupid that an entire round can be cut short. And yes, EFro's article is related to this situation, because a culture exists in competitive MtG of forfeits and draws. Again, a year or so ago when I said "no" to someone asking me to forfeit him into top 8 when I had no chance to get in on tiebreakers, I said no and not only was he upset, but everyone else around me was shocked. These rules hit every player with a sense of entitlement that I don't see in other sports. Hell, pro sports leagues are currently working on preventing non-games from occurring. Look at the NBA fining teams for resting players, or the NFL changing schedules to make the last two games of each season divisional games with greater statistical importance.
Also, yes he is a pile of *****. He's also representative of pro player entitlement. Remember, people came to his defense from that article. Every pro player could retire tomorrow, be replaced with new people, and nothing significant would change.
Plus, if the goal is actually for this to become an e-sport that draws significant audiences, which WOTC clearly wants, IDs are even worse. Hell, pro sports leagues are currently working on preventing non-games from occurring. Look at the NBA fining teams for resting players, or the NFL changing schedules to make the last two games of each season divisional games with greater statistical importance.
When you get to the Pro Tour/Grand Prix level of Magic, very few matches are determined by the cards. Sorry, it's just a fact of the game. And if that's making the game worse, I hardly see Wizards doing much about it. At least without any extreme backlash, I can't see them doing something about it. Look at the changes in Gold, Silver, Bronze. Many Pros were upset about this because honestly they cannot make a living off of Magic.
You got a player with 3 Byes. During Day 2 in the late rounds, there may be several times where it is "discussed" about who needs the Pro Points more, so THAT determines the game. Then there are "bathroom deals," which I'll admit that I haven't personally seen in many years, but I'm pretty sure they still go on. It's tough to win an actual match of Magic. I had 2 Byes at GP Sacramento. I played a format that I hadn't played in years and I didn't even look at the cards or any kind of strategy beforehand. Why? Because it was boring to me and I was not sure I'd go. I ended up 4-3 on Day 1. I did 3-3 on Day 2, so with Byes, that's a total of 9-6, all for winning barely 50% of my matches. I feel absolutely terrible for failing, especially Day 2 when I didn't actually lose to the same Bomb Rare in every game of a match. But many argue that Byes are earned. Many argue that Pro Status is earned and often people misplaying because they're nervous against a Pro also leads to easy wins for someone who has been in that situation literally thousands of times.
I'm not sure if WotC wants the game to be an E-Sport or not. I actually barely know what that means. But I DO know that if Wizards makes big sweeping changes to the game, there will be a lot of backlash from the Pro community and even many Pros quitting the game. It's tough to remember the Pros that are "good for the game" like Reid Duke because there are so many that aren't. But in person, I've actually found that Pros that I've met are actually pretty amicable and rarely as douchey as one would assume (me assuming).
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Reid Duke is not good for the game. Just being a good person who happens to play a lot of magic does nothing for the bottom line of the business.
I think it encourages newer players to want to play. They feel that an honest player can do well in Magic and not just the plethora of dishonest players that we all know or suspect. It is nice to see someone who works hard and it shows in their play. I think that is good for the game and good for any game. It's a good thing to teach to young people - persistence and meeting goals.
That helps business because it attracts a certain targeted crowd. Now you may play devil's advocate and say that cheaters are also "good for the business" because they attract a certain non-targeted crowd and you may certainly be right.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Nobody likes the ID culture. The only way to help reduce it would be an artificial rule that the last round of any event is somehow different. A draw gets nothing in the last round would work, whilst making the last round win be worth 5 points would reduce the number of players who could afford to draw.
But both scenarios lead to the same outcome, an artificial and unjustifiably different value to a match depending on the round status, which is as bad as the ID culture for some commentators at least.
One way to reduce it would be simple, no top 8s, simply a league Swiss structure. The ID would be less frequent, but not eradicated.
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People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
I don't have a problem with Pro play that much. Rather, the issues I have with pro play are the people that cater the events, rampant cheating, etc. It's probably for the best if WoTC started moving professional level play to the online medium using something like Arena, as it's impossible for someone to cheat and the games are much easier to broadcast and watch.
This game is fun, but... it's got a lot of history and that history is a curse to the company and the people playing it.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I don't have a problem with Pro play that much. Rather, the issues I have with pro play are the people that cater the events, rampant cheating, etc. It's probably for the best if WoTC started moving professional level play to the online medium using something like Arena, as it's impossible for someone to cheat and the games are much easier to broadcast and watch.
This game is fun, but... it's got a lot of history and that history is a curse to the company and the people playing it.
So you're saying it's okay for a card game manufacturer like Wizards of the Coast to completely discontinue the Paper medium as a way to stick it to casual players whose been ruining MTG for competitive players? Saying that switching to an Online medium to circumvent cheating doesn't excuse DCI Judges and competitive players' incompetence to purposely allow that sort of behavior to take place. If someone is caught cheating then there needs to be accountability. How is it that the people running these events never get caught in the act when it's MTG players on Social Media who take the blame?
Given Rudy's latest YouTube video where he officially disclosed the problems going on with MTG's card stock quality, it's more than likely that Wizards of the Coast is desperately trying to replace the Paper TCG with MTG Arena. Why else would they continue to use poor card stock while making decisions that negatively effect the local game store? Poor card stock and no place to gather will cause players to turn to MTG Arena. Why would they want to take away the social aspect of the game from a 25+ year fan base who loves it the way it is?
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
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I think doing a beta rochester draft is just plain stupid. Many cards are poorly worded. Rochester draft is a weird format that even many current players wouldn't recognize if they saw it (I had to look it up when I read about this event). The only reason to do this is for the excitement of seeing a pack opened to reveal a super expensive card. However, that feeling of awe is quickly going to fade for many viewers, because all cards are being auctioned for charity. While certainly a good cause, it removes a significant portion of the stakes and that lottery feeling that sells booster packs.
That's a generic complaint. The complaint at the pro level can be summarized like so: competitive magic is virtually impossible to turn into a profit, yet four people with no current connections to the game are going to win more in a single invitational than most people would win grinding grand prix for a year. This is reminiscent of the "pay the pros" silliness, where random fans actually rooted for WOTC to keep paying people just to show up to events. These four are not the problem. Hell, two of them, Brian Kibler and David Williams, were prominent pro mtg players who left for greener pastures in Hearthstone and poker, respectively. That is a flaw of the game, its viability as an e-sport, and the current crop of pro players. It is not a flaw of Kibler, Williams, Amaz...and that other guy.
The flaw is with the existing pros. First of all, as I type this I checked out MtG on twitch. The top stream right now is Day9tv, a hearthstone channel with 3,335 people watching at this moment. The next highest is a fairly well established pro, Todd Stevens at 1,045. Streams are arguably the most profitable way to play a game professionally, due to low overhead, no travel costs, and the ability to market yourself as the product as much, if not moreso, than the game itself. If it was just about any given game, you would not see the same streamers even at the top five games streamed consistently getting by far the most views. Those people get to the top through brilliant branding of their personalities and ability as entertainers. That's ImaQTPie, that's Tyler1, that's Amaz, that's Ninja. The average pro player is as entertaining as a sack of carrots. There is little entertainment, little branding, and the free market reflects that. Why does that happen?
Personally? I don't assume that these men and women are naturally dull. I think a big part of it is that they take the game way too seriously. You can afford to be serious if the competition creates the attention for you by way of a million dollar plus prize pool. Then people will just be entertained by high level play because they know the difference between a win and a loss can be tens of thousands of dollars or more. Those tournaments don't exist, at least not yet. And if Gabriel Nassif is going to stream random competitive MTGO leagues, or anyone else, a level of showmanship is required that these guys simply lack. To be very blunt, there is no mtg pro who is an actual draw at this time. Nobody has a following that brings tens of thousands of people into an MtGArena constructed ladder marathon. That's their fault, so it is just wrong to get mad at WOTC for realizing that hearthstone players have more charisma and more value in terms of PROMOTION.
As for the silver showcase having too much prize money? Well, Mr. BBD, and all other pros who whined, the prize structure has been this way for ages. If you continue to claim this is your profession while also saying that at best you break even, that is entirely on you. Play hearthstone. Play poker. Play Overwatch. Leverage your abilities into something more profitable. There is no nobility in doing something for a loss while self-flagellating when the company who makes the game makes it very clear that you aren't that important. You're not. You're not a star. Either become one through your own means or step aside. We live in an era where youtube, twitch, and newer less corporate platforms like *****ute and gab and making it easier than ever to develop a cult of personality. If you want more money, stop waiting for WOTC to pay up. They won't.
There are definitely other issues that limit pro MtG besides players' lack of personality. Cheating is a problem, as is political back-room dealings for placement during events' swiss rounds. What tension can there be in a major tournament where six of the top eight playoff spots are determined two rounds early via intentional draws? You don't see that anywhere else. Oh, and let's not forget the arrogance that is "pro equity." These topics are far more controversial, though, and I will set them aside.
Do we have solutions? Or is it best that the concept of a pro Magic player turn to ash and remain that way for the rest of time?
Solutions definitely exist. Arena might help. I don't play it (still waiting on a Mac client...). But clearly it is designed with e-sports in mind by way of its presentation. The emergence of bigger personalities might. Bigger tournament payouts would, and I bet a lot of people here would be willing to pay $5 for some promotional tokens or other items if they knew that some of the proceeds would be added to the next pro tour payout. Hell, I'd pay more to play in a grand prix if it went to payouts instead of hiring youtube creators to show up for panels. I will not drive a hundred miles, let alone more, just to see...well my favorite creators wouldn't be found there anyways.
Do you care about any particular pros? Would you stop watching tournaments if any pro or pros said "I'm done with this game?" Do you disagree with my assessment that the silver showcase is just a free market reflection of the lack of promotional ability and value of MtG pros? Pardon me, but I'm sick of these guys *****ing. Far as I am concerned, they are entitled children who want everyone to love them as much as they love themselves.
Would you stop watching tournaments if any pro or pros said "I'm done with this game? NO
Do you disagree with my assessment that the silver showcase is just a free market reflection of the lack of promotional ability and value of MtG pros? NO I don't disagree.
If someone paid me just to show up and play a game I'd be over the moon.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Do not watch pro play, nor pay any real attention to that scene.
The closest that I care is checking out what are top decks so I can understand market values.
I have watched so pro play in the past, It's as exciting as paint drying.
There's a culture and attitude among pro players that is frankly distasteful.(I'm not going to get into that here)
I'm not too sure how valuable pro play actually is to the game. I play in many circles and venues, and the vast majority of players I encounter
either don't know, or don't care about pro play. The only exception is the few local guys that somehow think they're going to place at a major event.
So other than try-hards net decking and card prices, what does pro play add to the game. I would say visibility cannot be a factor here.
All that said, I actually don't care one way or another about pro play and what WOTC does regarding it.
Back in the mid '90s I had the dubious pleasure of playing some multiplayer magic with a couple of pros, they'd forgotten the concept of playing for fun.
That just seems miserable to me, and pro players these days, from what little I have garnered, seem like a miserable lot.
I want to see new people all the time, not the same old faces over and over again.
----
One of magics biggest strength is to meet new people in almost every game you play (if you play in Grand Prix and such).
If you play locally you will have your "friends" around all the time, and in the Pro scene, you kinda get a local store event just over the world with the same guys playing each other.
Its kinda ironic that a collective of pro players simply emulates a local game store.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Having said all that, I find the the fact that anyone cares what these ppl say, think, & do outside the realm of actual gameplay to be absurd. All the things in the world worth concerning yourself with and this has to be one of them?
I found the Rochester draft to be very entertaining.....because those were the cards I began playing with when I learned the game. Nostalgia tends to put a smile on peoples faces. I could care less who was invited, why, what they did or didnt win.
And FWIW, most of the "pros" I grew up on arent around any more or dont play very frequently. I still watch
My 720 Peasant Cube
When they made the pro scene as it is today they really hurt old style pros who had a job. It really sucked and probably took the game in the wrong direction, and it hurt good players who had given a lot but ultimately WOTC call the tune. The players are not like sports stars who generate advertising and ticket revenue, where they can move from club to club to play, it is not that kind of market.
I played in the days where amateurs could win big (I have had the plane and hotel package thanks to WOTC), I was annoyed as the game went away from that as I was when ranking points went. In fact I sold out of Standard and turned to finance as a consequence and made a lot of money off of that whilst growing my own local eternal scene. In other words my skills and effort went elsewhere away from playing, and the disenfranchised pros could do the same here, many already do, the playing of the market by some players with both inside info and collections is probably very big. Most pros are well known for content as much as anything, and WOTC only need but a few all time pro names on their books, their employees generate content that pros cannot, such as making magic on daily mtg.
If we are honest mtg pro scene + internet= solved standard. Maybe standard would always be solved without pros, but not as quickly, so it is difficult to see what benefit the pros have there; I never bought the aspirational players grinding to the pro tour and thus generating sales argument, their effect on sales in this day and age is negligible compared to that of casuals, amateurs playing at a FNM to small event level, or commander.
In particular the way in which people since day one team up beyond simple testing and actually get information on who is on what at events and, at times, ask for concessions, really sticks in the throat and generates ill feeling. ID-ING towards the end of an event influenced by desires to get team mates in really looks underhand and us not replicated in most sports. Now much of this would happen without pro players, of course, but it really gets exacerbated and legitimised by the pro culture.
I think the future of pro play, especially standard, will head towards more official team events,whilst SCG have the sort of support that will generate sales without selling the pro idea in the way it has been sold in the past.
All the current pro club structure also has done is create a group of entitled men and women who think they matter. I actually give SCG some credit for having the presentation and personality on commentary to pull similar numbers as WOTC-backed events, which you would think have far more resources available.
N/A
Modern:
Grishoalbrand / Grixis Death's Shadow / Jeskai Control / UW Control
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Take one sport- Cricket. You hit the ball with a fine nick along the edge of the bat, it is caught- you know you are out, but entitled to stand your ground and wait for the umpire to give you out, it is not considered cheating to do so, even though you are out and you know it. Same sport, you are bowling and interfere with the ball to make it move around, that is cheating, and comes with year long bans. Unless you are polishing it, which is fine. Apparently. Very fine lines as to what is ethical/cheating.
Mtg terms- you miss your Tabernacle triggers, your board gets wiped as the opponent calls a judge and they enforce the rules at comp REL. Did the opponent cheat you? At FNM you can forget and they get put on the stack and that army of your stays. In fact you can draw your card and look to see if it is worth paying and the judge can prove nothing and will not punish you, just go back and rewind to the triggers. Some players miss Tabernacle triggers at FNM and scoop their men up, others just rewind. Personally I feel cheated any time anyone good misses their triggers at FNM and rewinds- I have seen GP top 8ers do it to me. On the other hand at comp REL a player in sight of winning the game has wrathed themselves and may well consider the punishment not fitting to the crime of missing a trigger (technically many triggers), especially if they did not realise the triggers become theirs.
Id ing is the same. You can get dq'd for ID-ing and saying "split?" to a single opponent, or even joking "I just want the win, don't care about boosters, you can have mine and my house as long as I win the trophy " but 4 players saying "can we split and not play in a top 4 knockout" is apparently OK. On the other hand a 3 round draft with two players on 6 saying "id?" is fine, as long as you don't say "ID and split". It is all fine lines.
Chess? I can't imagine a judge forcing grandmasters to continue playing a game with an outcome decided a dozen moves before checkmate. I would like to differentiate turn-based strategy games from games that earn the "esport" title from real-time, sometimes team-based gameplay. The real reason why Magic will never be a sport is that it doesn't even pretend at athleticism.
Oh yeah. I actually agree. I kinda forgot about that angle when I made my original comment. I was really thinking of GPs and Opens. I definitely enjoy Game Knights, especially when it's just four people that brought their own decks as opposed to "Game Knights with C18 commanders/M19 commanders, etc."
My 720 Peasant Cube
I do read Modern deck articles made by Pros in SCG, and I also sometimes take a look at Saffron Olive decks. So I think they're helpful
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
You misunderstand. That's a scenario where the result is an inevitability. I'm talking about going into round six of a pptq and eight people figuring out "oh okay if we just skip the match and claim we tied we advance" and effectively ending the event one round early. I'm talking about EFro asking a stranger to forfeit so he can enter the top 8, then getting angry when that total stranger refuses.
Those are 2 different scenarios.
In scenario 1, the players with the records that allow them to Intentional Draw into the top 8 earned those records during the tournament. I say this even as being that guy at 4-1 that usually has to play it out because my opponents didn't do too well, so I have poor tiebreakers. I have had to play it out at Comp REL tournaments twice recently, once winning the win-and-in (and winning the tournament) and once losing the win-and-in to fall to 4-2. It happens. I can't really complain unless I am winning every single match. This is also the case even if I lost other matches to what I perceive as variance. Doesn't matter. Variance is what Magic is about.
In scenario 2, Eric Froelich is just being a big pile of steaming *****. I personally don't like the guy. My friend was banned for 2 years from Magic by Helen Bourgeot for making a comment about EFro being salty, which he is, on Twitter. Stupid stuff... Mark Jacobson had every right to play it out and I would do the same. I do know players that have conceded to Pro Players who need a single Pro Point for Silver, or claim that they do. I most likely wouldn't, but it's a case by case basis. EFro dug his grave when he made that article. He never should have done that. It reflects terribly on the game of Magic, but guess what? Not everyone is EFro. There are always going to be douchenozzles in any kind of game and in Magic, you sometimes have to do something that 10 people looking on don't like just so you can win. That's the game.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Also, yes he is a pile of *****. He's also representative of pro player entitlement. Remember, people came to his defense from that article. Every pro player could retire tomorrow, be replaced with new people, and nothing significant would change.
Plus, if the goal is actually for this to become an e-sport that draws significant audiences, which WOTC clearly wants, IDs are even worse. Hell, pro sports leagues are currently working on preventing non-games from occurring. Look at the NBA fining teams for resting players, or the NFL changing schedules to make the last two games of each season divisional games with greater statistical importance.
You got a player with 3 Byes. During Day 2 in the late rounds, there may be several times where it is "discussed" about who needs the Pro Points more, so THAT determines the game. Then there are "bathroom deals," which I'll admit that I haven't personally seen in many years, but I'm pretty sure they still go on. It's tough to win an actual match of Magic. I had 2 Byes at GP Sacramento. I played a format that I hadn't played in years and I didn't even look at the cards or any kind of strategy beforehand. Why? Because it was boring to me and I was not sure I'd go. I ended up 4-3 on Day 1. I did 3-3 on Day 2, so with Byes, that's a total of 9-6, all for winning barely 50% of my matches. I feel absolutely terrible for failing, especially Day 2 when I didn't actually lose to the same Bomb Rare in every game of a match. But many argue that Byes are earned. Many argue that Pro Status is earned and often people misplaying because they're nervous against a Pro also leads to easy wins for someone who has been in that situation literally thousands of times.
I'm not sure if WotC wants the game to be an E-Sport or not. I actually barely know what that means. But I DO know that if Wizards makes big sweeping changes to the game, there will be a lot of backlash from the Pro community and even many Pros quitting the game. It's tough to remember the Pros that are "good for the game" like Reid Duke because there are so many that aren't. But in person, I've actually found that Pros that I've met are actually pretty amicable and rarely as douchey as one would assume (me assuming).
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I think it encourages newer players to want to play. They feel that an honest player can do well in Magic and not just the plethora of dishonest players that we all know or suspect. It is nice to see someone who works hard and it shows in their play. I think that is good for the game and good for any game. It's a good thing to teach to young people - persistence and meeting goals.
That helps business because it attracts a certain targeted crowd. Now you may play devil's advocate and say that cheaters are also "good for the business" because they attract a certain non-targeted crowd and you may certainly be right.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)But both scenarios lead to the same outcome, an artificial and unjustifiably different value to a match depending on the round status, which is as bad as the ID culture for some commentators at least.
One way to reduce it would be simple, no top 8s, simply a league Swiss structure. The ID would be less frequent, but not eradicated.
This game is fun, but... it's got a lot of history and that history is a curse to the company and the people playing it.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Given Rudy's latest YouTube video where he officially disclosed the problems going on with MTG's card stock quality, it's more than likely that Wizards of the Coast is desperately trying to replace the Paper TCG with MTG Arena. Why else would they continue to use poor card stock while making decisions that negatively effect the local game store? Poor card stock and no place to gather will cause players to turn to MTG Arena. Why would they want to take away the social aspect of the game from a 25+ year fan base who loves it the way it is?
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta