I know there's plenty of threads answering the question of what to do versus a slow player, but I wanted to know if there was anything I should've done better in case something like this happens again. In round 1 I played a jes'kai approach deck versus a b/w vampires deck. The first game I won through approach, and the second game I got hit pretty hard and lost on turn 5. We had about 9 minutes left for round 3, and despite (subjectively) having much less complicated decisions to make, my opponent turn very long with each of his turns. I can't say exactly for how long, but I understood since the beginning of the game that I was playing what would be considered the slower deck so I intentionally played out my turns faster than I'd like to compensate for my opponent. My opponent admitted during the match that this was the first time playing this deck, and he didn't know many of the cards in standard, so I understood why some of his turns took a little longer with some exception. He wasn't a child or anything, he was an older man that remarked several times how he's been playing the game For 10-15 years or so and had just gotten back into it. Though in this game, he'd done things such as taking over a minute to dig out a token and resolve his first and second History of Benalia triggers, and in game one after I played Approach of the Second Sun for the first time while explaining what it did, he then asked me to dig the card back out of my library so he could look at it again after I had already shown him and he'd given me to go to resolve it. This was long after I cleared his board and he was topdecking each turn, to which I thought he was playing slowly and stalling intentionally. After we drew the round, I called a judge and explained to him that my opponent was playing very slowly throughout the game, and had this not been the case I would have easily won the match after drawing any of my win conditions. The judge actually took offense to me for accusing my opponent of slow playing, telling me that it was fnm and that everyone was here to play for fun. He also said that everytime he walked by my opponent was "advancing the board state," if you'd consider taking roughly 30 seconds to draw a land, put it into play and pass the turn. The judge then told me that my only option would be to ask my opponent to concede the round, and before I had even considered doing so, my opponent crossed his arms and angrily gave me the "in all my time of playing this game I've never had someone ask me to give up in a game." Thankfully (in my eyes) he lost to a more aggressive deck in the next round and ended up dropping and leaving immediately afterwards. Now I play at a small store with 16-18 players at fnm and very lax rules, but I don't know what I should be doing in this sort of situation. I politely asked my opponent to play through the third round faster because I didn't want to draw and potentially get paired down, which is exactly what happened. I've used to playing a hidden stockpile/anointed procession deck and have learned to take my turns at a reasonable speed, but this time I just had a stubborn opponent who wasn't even aware of what his own cards did, and taking an obscene amount of time drawing and playing cards from the top of his deck, and on top of all of this the judge didn't seem to take my complaint seriously. I feel like in the future I should ask the judge to overlook the match much earlier, but I wanted to know if anyone else had other options or solutions, or if I was in the wrong after all.
Ya I feel ya man I've had this happen to me every once in awhile. You should definitely not feel afraid to call a judge for concerns over slowplay. Moreso you shouldn't feel intimidated by judges/store personnel if you feel your opponent is playing intentionally slow. Obv some people may take offense to this but it's both players responsibility to make moves in a timely manner and judges/organizers to police it. I dont think your opponent was too egregious though tbh. It just sounds like he was someone who doesn't play competitively a lot and wasn't used to playing the game in a timed setting. I don't think you were out of line addressing the issue but sometimes unfortunately slow players are just gonna get you. It especially sucks when your opponent is just skirking the line of slowplay enough that its not against the rules but is causing games to go to time. There's really no easy solution. Just play as you would normally and hope it's good enough. Don't sweat it you acted appropriately
I actualy had an incident like this the other night at a modern fnm. I was playing uw control and my opponent was on ur storm. Which is already a pretty rough match if your trying to end the match on time. And the person im playing against, whom i play all the time. Is a notorious slow player. I don't think im exaggerating when i say every match ive ever played with him has gone to time. And its hard to catch him on it because A. My shops very casual and laid back and B. The judge/tournament organizer plays in the events he judges. So its very obvious he wont come over to our gsme midmatch and scrutinize my opponent for slowplay.
So game 1 goes on and my opponent is just trying his damndest to drag out every interaction. Each time i present my deck for a cut after a fetchland/field of ruin he rifle shuffles for a solid 30sec. Which doesnt sound like alot but he does this every time i search my deck and takes even longer in between games. Worse he mulls over basic decisions forever. Such as being at 1 mana and playing a cantrip. He even goes to phases hes not going to utilize. For inatance he goes "go to combat" ok. "No attacks"
So he starts to storm off and i should've scooped as i was tapped out and the likelihood of him whiffing was fairly low. But he plays it out and wins game 1. So i start sideboarding and finish in a minute or 2 and notice he isnt boarding. I figure hey whatever he must be really confident in his deck. But no as soon as i present my deck for a cut, then he starts looking through his sideboard. So game 2 i play an early rest in peace to nullify his graveyard and despite having relatively few options he continues to mull over every decision. I end up winning game 2 and notice theirs only about 10mins left on the round clock. So i shuffle as fast as possible and start game 3 keeping an excellent hand. He keeps his 7 with only one land, and never sees another land. Im playing at a break neck speed trying to finish before time. I field of ruin is ur dual and counter the few cantrips he casts. Play rest in peace on turn 2. I start attacking with snapcaster mage a few times when its time in the round. We take our 5 turns, he still never sees a second land. I swing him to 6 when it's the final turn and the match ends in a draw. I show him my hand with 3 counterspells and the mana to cast them and his hand is nothing playable. Its obvious had the game ended on time i wouldve won. His response "yep draw".
Now i dont expect anyone to scoop(i didnt even ask having drawn with him before and knowing he wouldn't). Especially when theres an advantage to a draw over a loss. Now obviously i have no proof that he intentionally plays slowly in an attempt to draw the game but its frustrating to be faced with the same result every time we play. The only solace i can take is i ended up getting 1st anyway, with him getting second. But still i probaly wont allow something like that to happen again and if the tournament organizer wont adress the issue I'll certainly stop frequenting their shop.
Secondly, I don't think it was right to call out about slow play against an aging new player. New players are just generally going to play slower and it's part of having to deal with it. It didn't sound like he had any intentions of doing it on purpose and from the sound of it, the pace wasn't all that bad either.
If you really want to hear slow play, I once played against a notorious slow player and went to time on game two. In a burn mirror.
@MLGWeeaboo @kogar15: it's an FNM you don't call a judge for every little thing you talk to your opponent, and aging and returning player if he doesn' know the cards/format you should show understanding.
@Tbuzzsaw: tha's defintly slow play, do you mind telling mthe full story
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From Supernatural:
Sam: a demon summoning spell ? why?
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====
If its a "issue" in the store in general, its best to ask the judge to announce it that players are supposed to play at a "reasonable" pace and its just fair if both players have roughly the same time and its not like 90% in favor of one of them.
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Its always important that a player has a rough idea what they want to do with the deck and while every move "can" be important, its much more problematic if players cannot finish games as they are just 300% slower as they are supposed to be.
Some new players wont think much what to do, and others will overthink everything and repeat doing so every turn after turn.
Its a skill to learn to keep a "plan" in your mind, you can easily identify what lands you want to play in advance.
Its also a skill to learn to think while your opponent is playing, you dont have to turn off your brain during the opponents turn.
All of that means, its good practice to remind players to play at a reasonable pace, its for the good of everyone. Yes, they WILL make bad moves because of it, but thats a skill in magic and thats what they have to learn.
----
If you dont enforce "slow play" at all in your low level store tournaments, it will teach players the absolutely problematic lesson that its "ok" to play slow or its even in their favor to do so, as some will use it to get in time over and over again, and it will grow into a very persistent and extremely toxic issue, as players that are annoyed by it (just like the topic starter) will have a increasingly bigger problem telling the players that playing crazy slow isnt the way to play magic.
Every player will at some point go in a "tank" and think a lot, especially if the necessary moves are complicated and most result in losing the game, so tiny mistakes are very problematic ; but its so important to make sure players are totally aware what a "reasonable pace" actually means, and the only way to make it healthy is if all people, including the judges look out for it and somewhat respectfully remind players and/or teach them to play faster.
Especially on low level events, a judge wont throw out Warnings or penalties to newbie players, but then again, even they have to play at a somewhat reasonable pace, and if they cannot do that, its just as problematic as any other rules infraction and should be treated as exactly that, if they keep doing it even when reminded over and over again.
----
For judges its a big problem to identify slow play , as its overall just subjective feeling.
As a player its easy to fall into the "social trap" to be not respectful or even trying to be harmfully annoying ; but again, its a problem that a community in a store creates itself over a long course of time, if they just "accept" slow play to exist and do absolutely nothing against it and even treat people that do stand up as harmful.
The best approach from my experience is to talk to the judges, make sure they understand the rules as they are, and tell them to maybe announce to players to play at a reasonable pace at the start of an event and mitigate that problem (as it wont go away instantly, it takes time).
If then "suddenly" time-out matches crumble to 0 , you know you have a win for everyone.
Secondly, I don't think it was right to call out about slow play against an aging new player.
Could you change that to "older" instead of "aging"? Sounds like you are talking about an octogenarian with health issues.
I'm 47 myself and although we are all aging, I am hardly slow. I've played players half to a third of my age and their slow play is just because of inexperience not age.
If playing against new, returning or inexperienced players my rule of thumb is cut them some slack. We all start out or restart somewhere.
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STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
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Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Secondly, I don't think it was right to call out about slow play against an aging new player.
Could you change that to "older" instead of "aging"? Sounds like you are talking about an octogenarian with health issues.
I was, but saying "older newer player" just sounded like an oxymoron.
Its alright, we all age from day one. I guess I'm an older old player.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
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So game 1 goes on and my opponent is just trying his damndest to drag out every interaction. Each time i present my deck for a cut after a fetchland/field of ruin he rifle shuffles for a solid 30sec. Which doesnt sound like alot but he does this every time i search my deck and takes even longer in between games. Worse he mulls over basic decisions forever. Such as being at 1 mana and playing a cantrip. He even goes to phases hes not going to utilize. For inatance he goes "go to combat" ok. "No attacks"
So he starts to storm off and i should've scooped as i was tapped out and the likelihood of him whiffing was fairly low. But he plays it out and wins game 1. So i start sideboarding and finish in a minute or 2 and notice he isnt boarding. I figure hey whatever he must be really confident in his deck. But no as soon as i present my deck for a cut, then he starts looking through his sideboard. So game 2 i play an early rest in peace to nullify his graveyard and despite having relatively few options he continues to mull over every decision. I end up winning game 2 and notice theirs only about 10mins left on the round clock. So i shuffle as fast as possible and start game 3 keeping an excellent hand. He keeps his 7 with only one land, and never sees another land. Im playing at a break neck speed trying to finish before time. I field of ruin is ur dual and counter the few cantrips he casts. Play rest in peace on turn 2. I start attacking with snapcaster mage a few times when its time in the round. We take our 5 turns, he still never sees a second land. I swing him to 6 when it's the final turn and the match ends in a draw. I show him my hand with 3 counterspells and the mana to cast them and his hand is nothing playable. Its obvious had the game ended on time i wouldve won. His response "yep draw".
Now i dont expect anyone to scoop(i didnt even ask having drawn with him before and knowing he wouldn't). Especially when theres an advantage to a draw over a loss. Now obviously i have no proof that he intentionally plays slowly in an attempt to draw the game but its frustrating to be faced with the same result every time we play. The only solace i can take is i ended up getting 1st anyway, with him getting second. But still i probaly wont allow something like that to happen again and if the tournament organizer wont adress the issue I'll certainly stop frequenting their shop.
Secondly, I don't think it was right to call out about slow play against an aging new player. New players are just generally going to play slower and it's part of having to deal with it. It didn't sound like he had any intentions of doing it on purpose and from the sound of it, the pace wasn't all that bad either.
If you really want to hear slow play, I once played against a notorious slow player and went to time on game two. In a burn mirror.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
@Tbuzzsaw: tha's defintly slow play, do you mind telling mthe full story
Sam: a demon summoning spell ? why?
Lucifer: to summon a demon (auto censorship here)
====
The Wizard of Oz: A juvenile delinquent runs away from home, kills the first person she meets in a foreign land, robs her corpse, then promptly forms a gang with three complete strangers in order to kill again.
====
with R i'll burn you and with B youll'be maimed
----
Its always important that a player has a rough idea what they want to do with the deck and while every move "can" be important, its much more problematic if players cannot finish games as they are just 300% slower as they are supposed to be.
Some new players wont think much what to do, and others will overthink everything and repeat doing so every turn after turn.
Its a skill to learn to keep a "plan" in your mind, you can easily identify what lands you want to play in advance.
Its also a skill to learn to think while your opponent is playing, you dont have to turn off your brain during the opponents turn.
All of that means, its good practice to remind players to play at a reasonable pace, its for the good of everyone. Yes, they WILL make bad moves because of it, but thats a skill in magic and thats what they have to learn.
----
If you dont enforce "slow play" at all in your low level store tournaments, it will teach players the absolutely problematic lesson that its "ok" to play slow or its even in their favor to do so, as some will use it to get in time over and over again, and it will grow into a very persistent and extremely toxic issue, as players that are annoyed by it (just like the topic starter) will have a increasingly bigger problem telling the players that playing crazy slow isnt the way to play magic.
Every player will at some point go in a "tank" and think a lot, especially if the necessary moves are complicated and most result in losing the game, so tiny mistakes are very problematic ; but its so important to make sure players are totally aware what a "reasonable pace" actually means, and the only way to make it healthy is if all people, including the judges look out for it and somewhat respectfully remind players and/or teach them to play faster.
Especially on low level events, a judge wont throw out Warnings or penalties to newbie players, but then again, even they have to play at a somewhat reasonable pace, and if they cannot do that, its just as problematic as any other rules infraction and should be treated as exactly that, if they keep doing it even when reminded over and over again.
----
For judges its a big problem to identify slow play , as its overall just subjective feeling.
As a player its easy to fall into the "social trap" to be not respectful or even trying to be harmfully annoying ; but again, its a problem that a community in a store creates itself over a long course of time, if they just "accept" slow play to exist and do absolutely nothing against it and even treat people that do stand up as harmful.
The best approach from my experience is to talk to the judges, make sure they understand the rules as they are, and tell them to maybe announce to players to play at a reasonable pace at the start of an event and mitigate that problem (as it wont go away instantly, it takes time).
If then "suddenly" time-out matches crumble to 0 , you know you have a win for everyone.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Could you change that to "older" instead of "aging"? Sounds like you are talking about an octogenarian with health issues.
I'm 47 myself and although we are all aging, I am hardly slow. I've played players half to a third of my age and their slow play is just because of inexperience not age.
If playing against new, returning or inexperienced players my rule of thumb is cut them some slack. We all start out or restart somewhere.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I was, but saying "older newer player" just sounded like an oxymoron.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
Its alright, we all age from day one. I guess I'm an older old player.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."