Someone already posted this in the Facebook thread, but I think it got burried by all sorts of wrong answers.
If you suspend Curse of the Cabal then play Emrakul, the Promised End on your next turn, you choose to sacrifice Platinum Angel during their upkeep that you control. Sigarda shouldn't stop this, as "they" have chosen to sacrifice something and winning from there is easy. Or you can sacrifice the Fluctuator and then easily win through Apocalypse and Nimble Obstructionist.
EDIT: Oops, just realized that Emrakul targets, so it doesn't work...
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"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
That was my suggestion on another forum, and someone pointed out that they will always have more Norns than you, which means your -x-x status never beats their +x+x. Because the extra Norn's produced off the EgocopiedMimics enter play one at a time, they never are on the field long enough to over come that, even if you are producing infinite of them. And since you can only cast one spell per turn, you can't keep the infinite turns lock going and cast Altered Ego. This combo gets you infinite cards, infinite power on board, infinite ETB triggers, infinite mana, and a bunch of other stuff, but still doesn't allow you to win.
Cavern of souls, magus of the candelabra, basic lands, boseiju, and merciless eviction. Use magus to untap boseiju and cast merciless eviction to exile all artifacts.
They lose then correct?
*Edited cause forgot about spells being countered.
Draw into power, candelabra of tawnos, basic lands, boseiju, and merciless eviction. Use candelabra to untap boseiju and cast merciless eviction to exile all artifacts.
They lose then correct?
You still can't resolve Candelabra of Tawnos. It immediately gets countered without some way to sneak it into play.
Can sudden spoiling get around the
Eidolon of Rhetoric? Nevermind the opponent has hexproof. This is a crazy puzzle.
Also, Erayo still counters the spoiling regardless, since it's a triggered ability.
I'm not convinced that the creator had a solution, but let's look at what options we do have:
1) Lands that don't require tapping - after going through the whole list of lands, though, I'm not seeing anything that helps
2) Card abilities that can be played from hand, but aren't Cycling - Channel (useful), Forecast (useful), Bloodrush (not useful), Faerie Macabre (not useful), and the Spirit Guides (probably not useful)
3) Uncounterable creatures... but only Altered Ego could possibly be large enough to survive the Norn swarm
4) Uncounterable spells - sadly these are mostly just burn spells
5) Self-copying spells - Replicate, Conspire, Storm (not that storm actually helps here because of Eidolon)
6) On-cast triggers
7) Desirable additional costs - This would be mostly useful if you needed a sac/discard outlet
Things that would allow us to win:
1) Being able to untap a nonbasic land
2) Being able to remove/circumvent almost any of their permanents
3) Being able to get a permanent into play for at least a turn that isn't Altered Ego or a land
Can sudden spoiling get around the
Eidolon of Rhetoric? Nevermind the opponent has hexproof. This is a crazy puzzle.
Also, Erayo still counters the spoiling regardless, since it's a triggered ability.
I'm not convinced that the creator had a solution, but let's look at what options we do have:
1) Lands that don't require tapping - after going through the whole list of lands, though, I'm not seeing anything that helps
2) Card abilities that can be played from hand, but aren't Cycling - Channel (useful), Forecast (useful), Bloodrush (not useful), Faerie Macabre (not useful), and the Spirit Guides (probably not useful)
3) Uncounterable creatures... but only Altered Ego could possibly be large enough to survive the Norn swarm
4) Uncounterable spells - sadly these are mostly just burn spells
5) Self-copying spells - Replicate, Conspire, Storm (not that storm actually helps here because of Eidolon)
6) On-cast triggers
7) Desirable additional costs - This would be mostly useful if you needed a sac/discard outlet
Things that would allow us to win:
1) Being able to untap a nonbasic land
2) Being able to remove/circumvent almost any of their permanents
3) Being able to get a permanent into play for at least a turn that isn't Altered Ego or a land
You also have access to the effect of suspend cards that trigger from exile, such as benalish commander. It is pointless though. This puzzle doesn't have a solution within our available pool of magic cards.
Beating Erayo + Eidolon is hard enough, the rest of the cards make it impossible. Not a very interesting puzzle one that has no solution.
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If this is commander, run Derevi, Empyrial Tactician as your commander to untap Boseiju or Cavern, then cast an uncounterable Cyclonic Rift/Kederekt Leviathan.
Since we can have any number of copies of any card, the Spirit Guides can actually get us the mana to not only outpace the Norn swarm to get an Altered Ego copy of the self-copying Norn but eventually two of them, if we employ several Skyscribings to draw a land each turn, a Guide, and maybe another card (EDIT: probably need two Guides per turn along with the land). Reliquary Tower lets us keep the cards in hand until we are ready to get an Altered Ego big enough to survive. And then we do it a second time. Since we get two Norn copies each turn to their one, eventually their Norns will die, along with all their other creatures, especially the Angel, and they lose for not being able to draw from an empty library during their next draw step.
Since we can have any number of copies of any card, the Spirit Guides can actually get us the mana to not only outpace the Norn swarm to get an Altered Ego copy of the self-copying Norn but eventually two of them, if we employ several Skyscribings to draw a land each turn, a Guide, and maybe another card (EDIT: probably need two Guides per turn along with the land). Reliquary Tower lets us keep the cards in hand until we are ready to get an Altered Ego big enough to survive. And then we do it a second time. Since we get two Norn copies each turn to their one, eventually their Norns will die, along with all their other creatures, especially the Angel, and they lose for not being able to draw from an empty library during their next draw step.
Won't work. You're forgetting eidolon. You can't cast 2+ egos to outpace their norn advantage. There is no solution to this.
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I can get more +1/+1 counters for Altered Ego due to the Spirit Guides. They get one Norn per turn, I get 3+ mana per turn (basic land and at least two Guides), I'm making good +3/+3 to their -2/-2. And once I have a Norn, it's eye for an eye, one Norn for one Norn per turn. I can then take my time to gather the resources nessessary to get a second surving AE.
I can get more +1/+1 counters for Altered Ego due to the Spirit Guides. They get one Norn per turn, I get 3+ mana per turn (basic land and at least two Guides), I'm making good +3/+3 to their -2/-2. And once I have a Norn, it's eye for an eye, one Norn for one Norn per turn. I can then take my time to gather the resources nessessary to get a second surving AE.
Hopw soon do you plan on getting your Altered Egos? If it is turn 6 (generous, but lets go with it). On turn 7, you create an Elesh Norn that gets +4/+4 from your Norns and -16/-16 from theirs (they get 1 per turn and start with 2). So, your first Norn is now a -8/-5 and dies. Your second trigger resolves and does the same thing. The end result is that you still have 2 Norns, they still have 8. I don't see how you are getting any further ahead here.
I suppose it is "infinite" time in the sense that you can wait until you have 1,000,000 cards in hand in order to keep your Egos above their Norns with Spirit Guides, but by this time they have 1,000,000 Elesh Norns to combat. And you need to cast an Altered Ego with 3 extra counters on it for the next 1,000,000 turns and in that time, they just created 1,000,000 more Elesh Norns which keep shrinking your Egos.
I can get more +1/+1 counters for Altered Ego due to the Spirit Guides. They get one Norn per turn, I get 3+ mana per turn (basic land and at least two Guides), I'm making good +3/+3 to their -2/-2. And once I have a Norn, it's eye for an eye, one Norn for one Norn per turn. I can then take my time to gather the resources nessessary to get a second surving AE.
You can cast one AE per turn that will eventually be bigger than all their creatures. No one is disputing that. As a matter of fact, you can chain Emrakul castings with skyscribing or aeons chronicler until your mana advantage is overwhelming and you have huge elesh norns. None of that matters. You're still locked one spell per turn and, whenever you get a norn, they get a norn. You won't have norns enough to outpace their initial advantage.
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The point of the puzzle was to create a lock as solid as possible, not to pose a riddle only the maker knew the answer to. It was even updated when Genesis Hydra was printed, because that briefly provided an out.
I'm copying the Mimic, not the original Norn. The copy ability is part of the copy effect and thus is copied onto my AE as well. I don't have to cast an AE each turn, I get one for free without casting anything. A second such copy with AE will thus give me two Norn tokens each turn to their one. I'm casting a total of two spells in the entire scenario, two Altered Egos.
Edit:
Never mind, the counters aren't copied, somehow missed that I need them on the copies, too.
Oh,while pondering about what Rezzahan said, I think I came up with a solution. So, if you use you altered egos to copy the 'progenitor mimic norn', every ego you cast will generate a new norn at your upkeep due to mimic's ability. In that way you can actually outpace their norn advantage. They get one a turn from the original progenitor mimic, but you get one for each AE you cast.
There was a solution after all.
EDIT: no there wasn't. Sigh.
EDIT2: wait, there is. Even if your norn copies die, there will eventually be enough copies being made that, when the state-based actions are checked, they will kill all creatures from the opponent. There you go.
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Yeah, I think that is the solution. You copy p-mimic norn up until you have enough AE duplicating themselves at upkeep that they will kill all your opponent's creatures.
Would you like to read Commander stories? Check my latest stories, coming from Lorwyn and Innistrad: Ghoulcaller Gisa and Doran, The Siege Tower! If you like my writing, ask me to write something for your commander as well!
Oh,while pondering about what Rezzahan said, I think I came up with a solution. So, if you use you altered egos to copy the 'progenitor mimic norn', every ego you cast will generate a new norn at your upkeep due to mimic's ability. In that way you can actually outpace their norn advantage. They get one a turn from the original progenitor mimic, but you get one for each AE you cast.
There was a solution after all.
EDIT: no there wasn't. Sigh.
EDIT2: wait, there is. Even if your norn copies die, there will eventually be enough copies being made that, when the state-based actions are checked, they will kill all creatures from the opponent. There you go.
Nope, unfortunately, since SBAs are checked after each single copy is created, before the next one arrives. Because each is created by a triggered ability and players get priority in between, so SBAs are checked in between.
Step 1
Get out 18 lands
Draw Emrakul
Draw Sky Scribing
Step 2
Forecast Sky Scribing to draw island. Play island. Cast Emrakul.
Step 3
Repeat step 2 10000 times
Step 4
Draw Altered Ego
Cast Altered Ego X=10000 on Progenetor Mimic
Step 5
Repeat Step 4 100 times
Where am I wrong here?
Art is life itself.
If you suspend Curse of the Cabal then play Emrakul, the Promised End on your next turn, you choose to sacrifice Platinum Angel during their upkeep that you control. Sigarda shouldn't stop this, as "they" have chosen to sacrifice something and winning from there is easy. Or you can sacrifice the Fluctuator and then easily win through Apocalypse and Nimble Obstructionist.EDIT: Oops, just realized that Emrakul targets, so it doesn't work...
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
That was my suggestion on another forum, and someone pointed out that they will always have more Norns than you, which means your -x-x status never beats their +x+x. Because the extra Norn's produced off the EgocopiedMimics enter play one at a time, they never are on the field long enough to over come that, even if you are producing infinite of them. And since you can only cast one spell per turn, you can't keep the infinite turns lock going and cast Altered Ego. This combo gets you infinite cards, infinite power on board, infinite ETB triggers, infinite mana, and a bunch of other stuff, but still doesn't allow you to win.
They lose then correct?
*Edited cause forgot about spells being countered.
You still can't resolve Candelabra of Tawnos. It immediately gets countered without some way to sneak it into play.
Eidolon of Rhetoric? Nevermind the opponent has hexproof. This is a crazy puzzle.
I'm not convinced that the creator had a solution, but let's look at what options we do have:
1) Lands that don't require tapping - after going through the whole list of lands, though, I'm not seeing anything that helps
2) Card abilities that can be played from hand, but aren't Cycling - Channel (useful), Forecast (useful), Bloodrush (not useful), Faerie Macabre (not useful), and the Spirit Guides (probably not useful)
3) Uncounterable creatures... but only Altered Ego could possibly be large enough to survive the Norn swarm
4) Uncounterable spells - sadly these are mostly just burn spells
5) Self-copying spells - Replicate, Conspire, Storm (not that storm actually helps here because of Eidolon)
6) On-cast triggers
7) Desirable additional costs - This would be mostly useful if you needed a sac/discard outlet
Things that would allow us to win:
1) Being able to untap a nonbasic land
2) Being able to remove/circumvent almost any of their permanents
3) Being able to get a permanent into play for at least a turn that isn't Altered Ego or a land
Beating Erayo + Eidolon is hard enough, the rest of the cards make it impossible. Not a very interesting puzzle one that has no solution.
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
I suppose it is "infinite" time in the sense that you can wait until you have 1,000,000 cards in hand in order to keep your Egos above their Norns with Spirit Guides, but by this time they have 1,000,000 Elesh Norns to combat. And you need to cast an Altered Ego with 3 extra counters on it for the next 1,000,000 turns and in that time, they just created 1,000,000 more Elesh Norns which keep shrinking your Egos.
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
Most Used (of many dozens) EDH Decks:
Brago, King Eternal - Stax
Grenzo, Dungeon Warden - Aggro Combo
Wort, the Raidmother - Spellslinger Swarm Control
Animar, Soul of Elements - Tempo Combo
Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder - Spellslinger
Exodia the Forbidden One:
Oona, Queen of the Fae - Combowins.dec
I'm copying the Mimic, not the original Norn. The copy ability is part of the copy effect and thus is copied onto my AE as well. I don't have to cast an AE each turn, I get one for free without casting anything. A second such copy with AE will thus give me two Norn tokens each turn to their one. I'm casting a total of two spells in the entire scenario, two Altered Egos.Edit:
Never mind, the counters aren't copied, somehow missed that I need them on the copies, too.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
There was a solution after all.
EDIT: no there wasn't. Sigh.
EDIT2: wait, there is. Even if your norn copies die, there will eventually be enough copies being made that, when the state-based actions are checked, they will kill all creatures from the opponent. There you go.
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
God damn this was hard.
EDIT: wrong again =]
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
Nope, unfortunately, since SBAs are checked after each single copy is created, before the next one arrives. Because each is created by a triggered ability and players get priority in between, so SBAs are checked in between.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)