Considering we got a new Lily, no I dont think price had anything to do with her being in Eldrich Moon...
LoTV didn't show up in eldrich moon because of the price. We got a different version of her in Emn so not sure what you are going at with this.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Allan S
@8MinTimeMachine
Replying to @maro254
Was reprinting Liliana of the Veil ever on the table?
It was discussed, but it had a few strikes against it. The biggest was that Liliana plays a major role in the story as a necromancer. Reprinting a card all about her destructive side didn't reinforce the story we were telling. Second, the card would warp Standard and I don't think the developers were interested in having to deal with the ramifications of what that warping would do. Third, Liliana is the face of the set (she's the one who appears in the marketing and on the box), and we tend to want to use that focus to show off something new rather than something old.
Its fine to have your cross, but you cannot look to it for every single issue you have in Magic.
Allan S
@8MinTimeMachine
Replying to @maro254
Was reprinting Liliana of the Veil ever on the table?
It was discussed, but it had a few strikes against it. The biggest was that Liliana plays a major role in the story as a necromancer. Reprinting a card all about her destructive side didn't reinforce the story we were telling. Second, the card would warp Standard and I don't think the developers were interested in having to deal with the ramifications of what that warping would do. Third, Liliana is the face of the set (she's the one who appears in the marketing and on the box), and we tend to want to use that focus to show off something new rather than something old.
Its fine to have your cross, but you cannot look to it for every single issue you have in Magic.
It's how someone interprets the phrasing. The fact is Wizards can not directly talk about prices on the secondary market for legal reasons and the few times they sort of allude to it they still were vague. I agree she would have been powerful in EMN, but at the same time they also printed Emerakul, the promised end. At the end of the day they aren't going to tell people directly "we didn't put this in the set because it costs too much". They will tell people the other reasons that were going against it and push those as the narrative.
Now if this was back before BFZ was ever released I'd believe them since that would have been before they shifted where they put cards in secondary products that see modern play and have the high price tags.
This is nothing really new, though. We've had threads pointing out WoTC's behavior with the secondary market for ages. They will print just about anything at 10 dollars or less in a commander product, with the one exception being Wurmcoil engine back in C14 and only reprint high value cards in masters sets that primarily are designed to introduce more stock while keeping prices high. They basically want things like LoTV to be expensive so they can do this yearly crop money making scheme no one likes.
Here is an old article that's interesting to read:
It talks about some interesting points, such as how "expert level sets" are basically value killers for reprints.
However, there is merit in what the developers were saying about Liliana as there is the entire deal with introducing a card that is already understood that is on the power level of Liliana of the Veil. They basically had this happen with Thoughtseize. Comparing the two cards in standard I'd say LoTV still doesn't come close to the latter, though.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
It's been an internal policy for years and while they sometimes skirt it a bit they always try to avoid talking about it too much.
They used to do more reprints in secondary products before they started increasing the number released per year, but once they introduced Modern Masters they started changing where they did their reprints. I'm not really sure what else to tell you besides the proof is in the pudding. Even if wotc doesn't admit to it, they are managing where and how they do reprints based on the cards history as well as it's price point.
Also, you do realize you are asking for deductive proof to a subject that is inductive in nature? What I've been stating is a conclusion derived from observation of the companies ongoing behavior with reprinting cards for the last 3+ years. Yes, they are doing it because they don't want to kill the price on the card.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
My argument is that I want to see everything get better. A healthy standard will help modern as much as modern can help standard. The reason modern is so expensive is partially because of changes to standard and these changes are also why many have sworn off standard entirely. If people could get to use modern powered cards in a more limited environment (read managed and balanced), that would be a big first step, which is why I'm very much for setting caps on card prices. They can't use Engineered Explosives in standard if the card is costing 50+ usd on the market when the set goes to pre-order.
It's not just changes to Standard as to why Modern is so expensive when the cost of consistent mana bases are an issue as well due to demand for Shocks, Fetches, and Shadowmoor/Eventide Filters. Legacy has the same problem as well due to demand for ABU Duals (which are the backbone of MTG Finance) as the majority of staple cards in the format are from the Reserved List. A lot of MTG players at my LGS are starting to make the switch from Standard/Modern/Legacy to Pauper since it's more affordable to break into and more balanced.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
My argument is that I want to see everything get better. A healthy standard will help modern as much as modern can help standard. The reason modern is so expensive is partially because of changes to standard and these changes are also why many have sworn off standard entirely. If people could get to use modern powered cards in a more limited environment (read managed and balanced), that would be a big first step, which is why I'm very much for setting caps on card prices. They can't use Engineered Explosives in standard if the card is costing 50+ usd on the market when the set goes to pre-order.
It's not just changes to Standard as to why Modern is so expensive when the cost of consistent mana bases are an issue as well due to demand for Shocks, Fetches, and Shadowmoor/Eventide Filters. Legacy has the same problem as well due to demand for ABU Duals (which are the backbone of MTG Finance) as the majority of staple cards in the format are from the Reserved List. A lot of MTG players at my LGS are starting to make the switch from Standard/Modern/Legacy to Pauper since it's more affordable to break into and more balanced.
Guess I got a pet peeve with people throwing filter lands into the same category of use as shocks and fetches. The price tag on lorwyn lands is similar to Time Spiral: They are largely casually used lands that just haven't been printed in ages and the supply is low. That entire block was printed during the great recession and there were not as many boxes of those sets opened as other sets. The filter lands are actually kind of clunky compared to other lands and the check lands are probably a bit better. The primary appeal is that the lands come into play untapped unconditionally, which is an oddity in this day and age where lands come into play tapped unless some condition is met. Despite loving the SoI block for the return of madness, the land cycle from that set is probably the weakest since scry lands.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Honestly, they put Tarmogoyf at Mythic in 3 different Master sets. the card in a draft is not even that great, certainly not a huge bomb. to have Tarmogoyf at Mythic and Splinter Twin at Rare in a draft format is all of the evidence I need that secondary market price determines how they make their choices. Tarmogoyf should be in Standard at Rare, they have no justification not to do so without secondary market prices.
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Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
Honestly, they put Tarmogoyf at Mythic in 3 different Master sets. the card in a draft is not even that great, certainly not a huge bomb. to have Tarmogoyf at Mythic and Splinter Twin at Rare in a draft format is all of the evidence I need that secondary market price determines how they make their choices. Tarmogoyf should be in Standard at Rare, they have no justification not to do so without secondary market prices.
Well, continuing my rant from a prior thread, I still can't make sense of why WoTC also makes cards legal in formats that the design team basically never wants to see again in a standard set. If WotC printed that card like they should, it would be probably more like 20-30 dollars a card right now and probably around the price of Spellskite when he isn't popular.
I mean, people wonder why I don't read too many official statements from WoTC and it's because what they say doesn't seem to ever coincide with what happens in reality. It's sort of gone down like this the last few years:
1) Tournaments happen and some cards get popular because they get screen time.
2) People run out and get copies so they can play their decks, prices go up.
3) WoTC sits around and does nothing, then releases the next masters set with the cards printed in it, sometimes at higher rarity so they get to cash in on the price jumps.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I think this argument has mostly referred to modern and eternal formats, but I don't think lowering the price of playing modern/legacy is what is going to make magic a better game. The large price of buying a modern or legacy deck to me seems to be more so an indicator that magic isn't in a horrible spot given the demand exists to create those prices.
What is going to make magic a healthier game is likely focusing more on standard. In the past wizards printed cards without really thinking or caring about the impact on other formats. Now when printing cards they're keeping multiple formats in mind such as edh and modern.
For magic to be a healthier game, wizards should pay a little less mind to other formats. Their watchful eye on how their printings affect other formats has kept the complexity of standard very low, and as a result has diminished the quality of gameplay and reduced diversity within the format.
More complexity in standard at lower rarity levels addresses two issues. It adds more depth to the standard format making for more interesting gameplay. It also helps address price concerns within the flagship format by printing more commons and uncommons that will see tournament play.
This goes directly against wizards' New World Order, but I think New World Order was a mistake to begin with. Sure there is a balance to be struck, but as it stands, standard is neither an engaging format nor a fun one.
The key to magic's long term success is through making standard enjoyable. This might mean enabling more archetypes to be powerful, it might mean printing land destruction again, and it could be just printing more complex cards. Making standard better should be the number one priority as that is always a big source of Wizard's revenue. Ensuring that Magic is profitable for the company producing it is what will increase magic's longevity.
I agree with your end result but not your reasoning, I feel wizards should return complexity to lower raritys. However I feel they need to pay MORE attention to older formats not less. They need to take standard and go "here are 5 cards that help with the following arctypes that exsist in modern/legacy as good potental valid choices to play with" Boom here is a new burn spell its 1 mana sorcory and deals 4 damage to each player, helps burn, Here is a New artifact that nicely fits in to affinity as a potential play choice, Here is a Great libary self miller say 1 black to put the 7 cards of your libary in to your graveyard yoru welcome dredge. Basically assume the other formats can take anything you throw at them and every set print 2-5 cards that slot in to existing decks in the meta game, Preferable T 2 and T1.5 decks that push them alittle bit. By printing cards that helps decks that don't exists in standard it only adds value to standard which takes away value from standard staples. This makes standard cheaper withlut warping it since most of the types of cards I am talking about are uselss in standard itself.
I agree with your end result but not your reasoning, I feel wizards should return complexity to lower raritys. However I feel they need to pay MORE attention to older formats not less. They need to take standard and go "here are 5 cards that help with the following arctypes that exsist in modern/legacy as good potental valid choices to play with" Boom here is a new burn spell its 1 mana sorcory and deals 4 damage to each player, helps burn, Here is a New artifact that nicely fits in to affinity as a potential play choice, Here is a Great libary self miller say 1 black to put the 7 cards of your libary in to your graveyard yoru welcome dredge. Basically assume the other formats can take anything you throw at them and every set print 2-5 cards that slot in to existing decks in the meta game, Preferable T 2 and T1.5 decks that push them alittle bit. By printing cards that helps decks that don't exists in standard it only adds value to standard which takes away value from standard staples. This makes standard cheaper withlut warping it since most of the types of cards I am talking about are uselss in standard itself.
I don't think this argument is synonymous with the end result I suggested. This argument is to use new sets to print cards for existing archetypes in older formats that have no impact in standard. What this does is decrease Wizards' demand for standard game play and likely decrease the longevity of magic's success. Wizards does actually need to make money from the game for magic to exist and the best way to do that is by ensuring that standard is fun to play, is interesting and can appeal to both new and enfranchised players. Something it has severely lacked in recent years.
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--> Modern <-- RBUSplinter Twin (RIP)/DelverRBU UUUMono U TronUUU GRGGR TronGRG GWURKnight FallGWUR
keep reprinting modern cards i guess. keeping them at mythic in masters sets is fine there has to be some compromise
The only real problem with masters sets are the MSRP per pack. People have been complaining for ages and 180 msrp is probably more around where the sets should cost if they plan on venturing into EDH and other formats. The other thing that the company probably needs to do is cut a lot of the fat from their product line up. They're printing way too many side products that nobody wants like Explorers of Ixalan and Anthology sets. The Commander Anthology is okay, but the MSRP on the sets makes it so that a lot of people just bought the individual deck they wanted from the set via the secondary market and then picked up the dice.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Interesting thread. I exclusively play commander and a bit of Limited, and I am actually very satisfied with the state of Magic overall. I enjoy Limited when I get around to it, and I find the quality of new sets in terms of power level, originality and overall fun factor to be really high for Commander. Every new set there are at least a couple of cards I am excited about for my decks and my meta. I also like a lot of the new products like Conspiracy for both draft and Commander. I expect Battlebond to deliver on this front as well. In terms of monetary investment, I feel I am pretty free to control how much I want to spend on Magic and will have fun irrespective of whether it is a high or low amount. I have a large enough collection and the couple of new cards that I need every now and then I can mostly finance by selling old cards. The only possible negative development I could think of is a perceived change in card quality with some newer cards. Not very big and not to a degree that impacts my enjoyment of the game (yet), but I will pay attention to how this develops.
That being said, I do realize there seem to be a lot of unhappy Standard and other players, and it seems that there are indeed some larger problems that Wizards needs to adress to ensure long-term success of the game. I am in no position to judge the variety of arguments put forth in this thread, but I thoroughly hope any widespread discontent will be adressed by WotC. I do think Wizards will need to step up their digital game though. No idea whether they will manage to do that with Arena, but I sure hope so. After all, I love this game and I want them to continue to print cards until I am 80 years old.
Riku of Two Reflections - Copy, then copy again | Shattergang Brothers - Token Sac&Recur | Gahiji, Honored One - Multiple attack steps | Karametra, God of Harvests - Landfall, Creaturefall, Shroud | Ruhan of the Fomori - Stop hitting yourself | Zurgo Helmsmasher - Equipment&Wraths | Crosis, the Purger - Dragon Tribal Reanimator | Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - No stax, just tap and untap fun | Anafenza, the Foremost - Enduring Ideal Enchantress | Sharuum, the Hegemon - Sphinx Tribal Control | Noyan Dar - Spellslinger | The Mimeoplasm - Counterpalooza
Lists can be found here.
Still convinced the guy on Beseech the Queen is wearing a Mitra-type hat. Wake up sheeple!
Most of the problems with magic are related to classic, which is the 60 to 75 card 4 of a kind max type of game. Commander gets around a lot of problems by being a singleton format.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Most of the problems with magic are related to classic, which is the 60 to 75 card 4 of a kind max type of game. Commander gets around a lot of problems by being a singleton format.
Fair point. But I had the impression people in the thread did not just complain about price levels, but also card design (too weak, not balanced etc). At least for Commander, I feel there is consistently high quality output from R&D.
Riku of Two Reflections - Copy, then copy again | Shattergang Brothers - Token Sac&Recur | Gahiji, Honored One - Multiple attack steps | Karametra, God of Harvests - Landfall, Creaturefall, Shroud | Ruhan of the Fomori - Stop hitting yourself | Zurgo Helmsmasher - Equipment&Wraths | Crosis, the Purger - Dragon Tribal Reanimator | Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - No stax, just tap and untap fun | Anafenza, the Foremost - Enduring Ideal Enchantress | Sharuum, the Hegemon - Sphinx Tribal Control | Noyan Dar - Spellslinger | The Mimeoplasm - Counterpalooza
Lists can be found here.
Still convinced the guy on Beseech the Queen is wearing a Mitra-type hat. Wake up sheeple!
Much of the criticism design gets is just personal taste, and I think that after playing in an explosive and more powerful format, it’s hard to have interest in Standard again.
One of the complaints is that Standard does not have answers and appropriate removal spells.
Well, I’ve played in environments with lots of good removal, and it got boring too, because everything you put on the battlefield is immediately obliterated. It all turn into the same removal wars, over and over again, and it doesn’t matter what the other cards do.
So, if there were removal wars like that in Standard, what would be the point of doing news things, just for removal to outshine them all?
The same goes for land destruction and prison cards. You just can’t have those cards in Standard because they take all visibility away from the new mechanics and design stuff.
The problems with the game are largely market place driven. There is a combination of the worst aspects of the US market place at play along with wizards current sales practices.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I agree with your end result but not your reasoning, I feel wizards should return complexity to lower raritys. However I feel they need to pay MORE attention to older formats not less. They need to take standard and go "here are 5 cards that help with the following arctypes that exsist in modern/legacy as good potental valid choices to play with" Boom here is a new burn spell its 1 mana sorcory and deals 4 damage to each player, helps burn, Here is a New artifact that nicely fits in to affinity as a potential play choice, Here is a Great libary self miller say 1 black to put the 7 cards of your libary in to your graveyard yoru welcome dredge. Basically assume the other formats can take anything you throw at them and every set print 2-5 cards that slot in to existing decks in the meta game, Preferable T 2 and T1.5 decks that push them alittle bit. By printing cards that helps decks that don't exists in standard it only adds value to standard which takes away value from standard staples. This makes standard cheaper withlut warping it since most of the types of cards I am talking about are uselss in standard itself.
I don't think this argument is synonymous with the end result I suggested. This argument is to use new sets to print cards for existing archetypes in older formats that have no impact in standard. What this does is decrease Wizards' demand for standard game play and likely decrease the longevity of magic's success. Wizards does actually need to make money from the game for magic to exist and the best way to do that is by ensuring that standard is fun to play, is interesting and can appeal to both new and enfranchised players. Something it has severely lacked in recent years.
How so? Modern players tend to not purcahse standard product right now, They don't play standard, Remember wizards does not need more people playing standard they need more standard product sales. By putting in the cards for older formats, the eternal format people will purchase said cards, They means packs must be cracked for these people and these people are mostly ok spending $10, $20 for a card that will tweek their deck that extra 1%. by putting say 3 extra $20 cards in a standard enviroment will leach away value from standard decks, This makes the cost to enerty for standard go down, since their is a fixed total EV in every set. It is likely that even if standard players get these cards they will not just go "well I just got Archbound Ravager V2 I guess I should spend the extra $900 for a full affinity deck, they will likely go Hey free $20 that I can trade for the a top tier card for my current standard deck. I agree standard does need to be more interesting, However putting "fun" cards back in standard (cough land destruction, good counterspells, Real combo, Prison decks cough) just likely is't in the cards.
There is no harm (Pithing vs Spyglass) in having functionally similar, but distinct, cards.
There is when talking about which card is going to see more play. A one mana increase in cost means a ton in formats like modern, and the tacked on effect doesn't really help much. When you cast something like Pithing Needle, you aren't interested in their hand: You already know what you are aiming to disable preemptively by using the card, so in terms of which one is better, the former is. However, in this case since the casting costs are both below 3 I'd say both are playable cards.
But in Legacy the Spyglass sees play in Chalice decks- the extra mana does not matter in the sol land decks which normally set Chalice to 1 counter. Some cards are Legacy playable but not Modern playable because of differences in the format.
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People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
I agree with your end result but not your reasoning, I feel wizards should return complexity to lower raritys. However I feel they need to pay MORE attention to older formats not less. They need to take standard and go "here are 5 cards that help with the following arctypes that exsist in modern/legacy as good potental valid choices to play with" Boom here is a new burn spell its 1 mana sorcory and deals 4 damage to each player, helps burn, Here is a New artifact that nicely fits in to affinity as a potential play choice, Here is a Great libary self miller say 1 black to put the 7 cards of your libary in to your graveyard yoru welcome dredge. Basically assume the other formats can take anything you throw at them and every set print 2-5 cards that slot in to existing decks in the meta game, Preferable T 2 and T1.5 decks that push them alittle bit. By printing cards that helps decks that don't exists in standard it only adds value to standard which takes away value from standard staples. This makes standard cheaper withlut warping it since most of the types of cards I am talking about are uselss in standard itself.
I don't think this argument is synonymous with the end result I suggested. This argument is to use new sets to print cards for existing archetypes in older formats that have no impact in standard. What this does is decrease Wizards' demand for standard game play and likely decrease the longevity of magic's success. Wizards does actually need to make money from the game for magic to exist and the best way to do that is by ensuring that standard is fun to play, is interesting and can appeal to both new and enfranchised players. Something it has severely lacked in recent years.
How so? Modern players tend to not purcahse standard product right now, They don't play standard, Remember wizards does not need more people playing standard they need more standard product sales. By putting in the cards for older formats, the eternal format people will purchase said cards, They means packs must be cracked for these people and these people are mostly ok spending $10, $20 for a card that will tweek their deck that extra 1%. by putting say 3 extra $20 cards in a standard enviroment will leach away value from standard decks, This makes the cost to enerty for standard go down, since their is a fixed total EV in every set. It is likely that even if standard players get these cards they will not just go "well I just got Archbound Ravager V2 I guess I should spend the extra $900 for a full affinity deck, they will likely go Hey free $20 that I can trade for the a top tier card for my current standard deck. I agree standard does need to be more interesting, However putting "fun" cards back in standard (cough land destruction, good counterspells, Real combo, Prison decks cough) just likely is't in the cards.
It's not just what cards get printed into standard that brings people into playing it or buying product, though. They have become incredibly tame with their artwork and themes, and it feels like each set moving forward has been playing it a little safer than before. It's not exactly like they aren't showing blood, as Eliminate the Competition is pretty blatant, but Scars had Tel-Jilad Defiance, Necrotic Ooze, etc, that really pushed the kind of feeling one is looking for, from being disturbing to having a sense of understanding human nature. I really wish they'd bring some of that back.
Honestly, for me it's the fact the game thrives around organized events and gatherings that adhere to certain formats and wizards of the coast creating products that don't really help new players gain entrance to these gatherings that is problematic. They print planeswalker decks, anthology sets, and duel decks that sometimes have value in them, but what is the point if that value is from cards that aren't currently playable in the popular formats supported by the events and gatherings? If the products that wizards was pushing to new players at least had more playable cards in them it would be possible to at least help steer someone into a deck that can give some fair match ups, but when you have to tell someone that what they bought is essentially worthless and that they have to spend about 30 to 40 more dollars to build a decent deck, that's a problem. That might be cheap to people who are enfranchised crazy folks like myself, but that's 40 dollars on top of a 20 dollar sealed product someone just spent money on. That's not even going into purchasing sleeves, a play mat, a way to store the cards when not playing, tokens, etc.
Why can't wizards give someone a fetchland in a starter deck, or a Dark Confidant? If the price is too high now on the market to do it, who's fault is it at the end of the day? They had ample amounts of time to do something like this to help newer players get started in the game and have some spotlighted and popular cards. Now they can get barely anything.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
They need to make sure they stop feeding into the creature power creep that's been going on, and returning some power to spells.
I wonder if the power creep existing was because of all the spoiled elitists preaching the whole "bad because dies to removal"? Just a random thought really?
Finally, something I think the players need to do to improve the game: stop thinking of boosters in terms of value. Stop buying just for money. That's the reason we can't get high priced reprints in precons. That's the reason Master's sets have become about the top three chase cards.
YES! Remember the ***** storm that happened when Khans had the reprinted Onslaught fetches? Player base greed, which possibly could also be contributing to WotC being hesitant on certain reprintings, leading to even more artificial inflation. Because you know, profits above all?
I agree with your end result but not your reasoning, I feel wizards should return complexity to lower raritys. However I feel they need to pay MORE attention to older formats not less. They need to take standard and go "here are 5 cards that help with the following arctypes that exsist in modern/legacy as good potental valid choices to play with" Boom here is a new burn spell its 1 mana sorcory and deals 4 damage to each player, helps burn, Here is a New artifact that nicely fits in to affinity as a potential play choice, Here is a Great libary self miller say 1 black to put the 7 cards of your libary in to your graveyard yoru welcome dredge. Basically assume the other formats can take anything you throw at them and every set print 2-5 cards that slot in to existing decks in the meta game, Preferable T 2 and T1.5 decks that push them alittle bit. By printing cards that helps decks that don't exists in standard it only adds value to standard which takes away value from standard staples. This makes standard cheaper withlut warping it since most of the types of cards I am talking about are uselss in standard itself.
I don't think this argument is synonymous with the end result I suggested. This argument is to use new sets to print cards for existing archetypes in older formats that have no impact in standard. What this does is decrease Wizards' demand for standard game play and likely decrease the longevity of magic's success. Wizards does actually need to make money from the game for magic to exist and the best way to do that is by ensuring that standard is fun to play, is interesting and can appeal to both new and enfranchised players. Something it has severely lacked in recent years.
How so? Modern players tend to not purcahse standard product right now, They don't play standard, Remember wizards does not need more people playing standard they need more standard product sales. By putting in the cards for older formats, the eternal format people will purchase said cards, They means packs must be cracked for these people and these people are mostly ok spending $10, $20 for a card that will tweek their deck that extra 1%. by putting say 3 extra $20 cards in a standard enviroment will leach away value from standard decks, This makes the cost to enerty for standard go down, since their is a fixed total EV in every set. It is likely that even if standard players get these cards they will not just go "well I just got Archbound Ravager V2 I guess I should spend the extra $900 for a full affinity deck, they will likely go Hey free $20 that I can trade for the a top tier card for my current standard deck. I agree standard does need to be more interesting, However putting "fun" cards back in standard (cough land destruction, good counterspells, Real combo, Prison decks cough) just likely is't in the cards.
It's not just what cards get printed into standard that brings people into playing it or buying product, though. They have become incredibly tame with their artwork and themes, and it feels like each set moving forward has been playing it a little safer than before. It's not exactly like they aren't showing blood, as Eliminate the Competition is pretty blatant, but Scars had Tel-Jilad Defiance, Necrotic Ooze, etc, that really pushed the kind of feeling one is looking for, from being disturbing to having a sense of understanding human nature. I really wish they'd bring some of that back.
Honestly, for me it's the fact the game thrives around organized events and gatherings that adhere to certain formats and wizards of the coast creating products that don't really help new players gain entrance to these gatherings that is problematic. They print planeswalker decks, anthology sets, and duel decks that sometimes have value in them, but what is the point if that value is from cards that aren't currently playable in the popular formats supported by the events and gatherings? If the products that wizards was pushing to new players at least had more playable cards in them it would be possible to at least help steer someone into a deck that can give some fair match ups, but when you have to tell someone that what they bought is essentially worthless and that they have to spend about 30 to 40 more dollars to build a decent deck, that's a problem. That might be cheap to people who are enfranchised crazy folks like myself, but that's 40 dollars on top of a 20 dollar sealed product someone just spent money on. That's not even going into purchasing sleeves, a play mat, a way to store the cards when not playing, tokens, etc.
Why can't wizards give someone a fetchland in a starter deck, or a Dark Confidant? If the price is too high now on the market to do it, who's fault is it at the end of the day? They had ample amounts of time to do something like this to help newer players get started in the game and have some spotlighted and popular cards. Now they can get barely anything.
In this I 100% agree with you. Precons SHOULD be semi construced viable decks. I can only think of 1 MAYBE 2 times in magic history where that has been true, and one time it was becaused of a banned OP card in said deck, The other was because the format was poorly defined and precons were a newish product where if you bought 2 you could have a soild discard theme playable deck. I am entirly in favor of printing and reprinting any nonreserve list card (in truth I would be ok with reserve list as well but working in small steps) in pre packaged fixed items, flood walmart/target/LGS with it so that the good stuff WILL be cheep. Cheaper the format is to get in to the mroe people that will play. Hell if standard T1 Deck ran only say $60 (average $1 a card) I would be tickled pink happy. That is likely hwere a throwaway format should be priced at.
I wonder if the power creep existing was because of all the spoiled elitists preaching the whole "bad because dies to removal"? Just a random thought really?
Personally, I think this is exactly what happened. They stapled every keyword they could think of to Baneslayer Angel because of people saying that about older cards, and some people still even say it about her.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not watching.
I'm actually getting the feeling we will never see something like Ugin, the Spirit Dragon or Karn Liberated in standard again going forward simply because they were basically end game bombs taken too far. Baneslayer Angel was relatively benign in the grand scheme of things given how unplayable most 5 drops are in the non-rotating organized play setting.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
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LoTV didn't show up in eldrich moon because of the price. We got a different version of her in Emn so not sure what you are going at with this.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
This is all I can find about speculation on her being in Eldrich Moon, and it has (shocker) nothing to do with price.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/odds-ends-eldritch-moon-part-2-2016-08-01
Its fine to have your cross, but you cannot look to it for every single issue you have in Magic.
Spirits
It's how someone interprets the phrasing. The fact is Wizards can not directly talk about prices on the secondary market for legal reasons and the few times they sort of allude to it they still were vague. I agree she would have been powerful in EMN, but at the same time they also printed Emerakul, the promised end. At the end of the day they aren't going to tell people directly "we didn't put this in the set because it costs too much". They will tell people the other reasons that were going against it and push those as the narrative.
Now if this was back before BFZ was ever released I'd believe them since that would have been before they shifted where they put cards in secondary products that see modern play and have the high price tags.
This is nothing really new, though. We've had threads pointing out WoTC's behavior with the secondary market for ages. They will print just about anything at 10 dollars or less in a commander product, with the one exception being Wurmcoil engine back in C14 and only reprint high value cards in masters sets that primarily are designed to introduce more stock while keeping prices high. They basically want things like LoTV to be expensive so they can do this yearly crop money making scheme no one likes.
Here is an old article that's interesting to read:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/how-wizards-manages-its-savings-account.
It talks about some interesting points, such as how "expert level sets" are basically value killers for reprints.
However, there is merit in what the developers were saying about Liliana as there is the entire deal with introducing a card that is already understood that is on the power level of Liliana of the Veil. They basically had this happen with Thoughtseize. Comparing the two cards in standard I'd say LoTV still doesn't come close to the latter, though.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
You are literally saying that they can't talk about it, but despite that, what they really mean is 'its all about cost' because you say so.
I gave you a source, and it took seconds to find it.
Spirits
Aron's old article about Modern Masters is about as far as they will go with talking about the secondary market: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/modern-masters-explained-2012-10-22
Similarly, Mark Rosewater did an article that does similarly acknowledge secondary market prices, but they can never mention anything in specific.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/masterpiece-series-2016-09-12.
It's been an internal policy for years and while they sometimes skirt it a bit they always try to avoid talking about it too much.
They used to do more reprints in secondary products before they started increasing the number released per year, but once they introduced Modern Masters they started changing where they did their reprints. I'm not really sure what else to tell you besides the proof is in the pudding. Even if wotc doesn't admit to it, they are managing where and how they do reprints based on the cards history as well as it's price point.
Also, you do realize you are asking for deductive proof to a subject that is inductive in nature? What I've been stating is a conclusion derived from observation of the companies ongoing behavior with reprinting cards for the last 3+ years. Yes, they are doing it because they don't want to kill the price on the card.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Guess I got a pet peeve with people throwing filter lands into the same category of use as shocks and fetches. The price tag on lorwyn lands is similar to Time Spiral: They are largely casually used lands that just haven't been printed in ages and the supply is low. That entire block was printed during the great recession and there were not as many boxes of those sets opened as other sets. The filter lands are actually kind of clunky compared to other lands and the check lands are probably a bit better. The primary appeal is that the lands come into play untapped unconditionally, which is an oddity in this day and age where lands come into play tapped unless some condition is met. Despite loving the SoI block for the return of madness, the land cycle from that set is probably the weakest since scry lands.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Well, continuing my rant from a prior thread, I still can't make sense of why WoTC also makes cards legal in formats that the design team basically never wants to see again in a standard set. If WotC printed that card like they should, it would be probably more like 20-30 dollars a card right now and probably around the price of Spellskite when he isn't popular.
I mean, people wonder why I don't read too many official statements from WoTC and it's because what they say doesn't seem to ever coincide with what happens in reality. It's sort of gone down like this the last few years:
1) Tournaments happen and some cards get popular because they get screen time.
2) People run out and get copies so they can play their decks, prices go up.
3) WoTC sits around and does nothing, then releases the next masters set with the cards printed in it, sometimes at higher rarity so they get to cash in on the price jumps.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I agree with your end result but not your reasoning, I feel wizards should return complexity to lower raritys. However I feel they need to pay MORE attention to older formats not less. They need to take standard and go "here are 5 cards that help with the following arctypes that exsist in modern/legacy as good potental valid choices to play with" Boom here is a new burn spell its 1 mana sorcory and deals 4 damage to each player, helps burn, Here is a New artifact that nicely fits in to affinity as a potential play choice, Here is a Great libary self miller say 1 black to put the 7 cards of your libary in to your graveyard yoru welcome dredge. Basically assume the other formats can take anything you throw at them and every set print 2-5 cards that slot in to existing decks in the meta game, Preferable T 2 and T1.5 decks that push them alittle bit. By printing cards that helps decks that don't exists in standard it only adds value to standard which takes away value from standard staples. This makes standard cheaper withlut warping it since most of the types of cards I am talking about are uselss in standard itself.
I don't think this argument is synonymous with the end result I suggested. This argument is to use new sets to print cards for existing archetypes in older formats that have no impact in standard. What this does is decrease Wizards' demand for standard game play and likely decrease the longevity of magic's success. Wizards does actually need to make money from the game for magic to exist and the best way to do that is by ensuring that standard is fun to play, is interesting and can appeal to both new and enfranchised players. Something it has severely lacked in recent years.
RBU
Splinter Twin (RIP)/DelverRBUUUUMono U TronUUU
GRGGR TronGRG
GWURKnight FallGWUR
Legacy
GWBDark MaverickGWB
--> EDH <--
BWUErtai, the CorruptedBWU
The only real problem with masters sets are the MSRP per pack. People have been complaining for ages and 180 msrp is probably more around where the sets should cost if they plan on venturing into EDH and other formats. The other thing that the company probably needs to do is cut a lot of the fat from their product line up. They're printing way too many side products that nobody wants like Explorers of Ixalan and Anthology sets. The Commander Anthology is okay, but the MSRP on the sets makes it so that a lot of people just bought the individual deck they wanted from the set via the secondary market and then picked up the dice.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
That being said, I do realize there seem to be a lot of unhappy Standard and other players, and it seems that there are indeed some larger problems that Wizards needs to adress to ensure long-term success of the game. I am in no position to judge the variety of arguments put forth in this thread, but I thoroughly hope any widespread discontent will be adressed by WotC. I do think Wizards will need to step up their digital game though. No idea whether they will manage to do that with Arena, but I sure hope so. After all, I love this game and I want them to continue to print cards until I am 80 years old.
Tamanoa - Welcome to the Jungle
Lists can be found here.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Tamanoa - Welcome to the Jungle
Lists can be found here.
One of the complaints is that Standard does not have answers and appropriate removal spells.
Well, I’ve played in environments with lots of good removal, and it got boring too, because everything you put on the battlefield is immediately obliterated. It all turn into the same removal wars, over and over again, and it doesn’t matter what the other cards do.
So, if there were removal wars like that in Standard, what would be the point of doing news things, just for removal to outshine them all?
The same goes for land destruction and prison cards. You just can’t have those cards in Standard because they take all visibility away from the new mechanics and design stuff.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
How so? Modern players tend to not purcahse standard product right now, They don't play standard, Remember wizards does not need more people playing standard they need more standard product sales. By putting in the cards for older formats, the eternal format people will purchase said cards, They means packs must be cracked for these people and these people are mostly ok spending $10, $20 for a card that will tweek their deck that extra 1%. by putting say 3 extra $20 cards in a standard enviroment will leach away value from standard decks, This makes the cost to enerty for standard go down, since their is a fixed total EV in every set. It is likely that even if standard players get these cards they will not just go "well I just got Archbound Ravager V2 I guess I should spend the extra $900 for a full affinity deck, they will likely go Hey free $20 that I can trade for the a top tier card for my current standard deck. I agree standard does need to be more interesting, However putting "fun" cards back in standard (cough land destruction, good counterspells, Real combo, Prison decks cough) just likely is't in the cards.
But in Legacy the Spyglass sees play in Chalice decks- the extra mana does not matter in the sol land decks which normally set Chalice to 1 counter. Some cards are Legacy playable but not Modern playable because of differences in the format.
It's not just what cards get printed into standard that brings people into playing it or buying product, though. They have become incredibly tame with their artwork and themes, and it feels like each set moving forward has been playing it a little safer than before. It's not exactly like they aren't showing blood, as Eliminate the Competition is pretty blatant, but Scars had Tel-Jilad Defiance, Necrotic Ooze, etc, that really pushed the kind of feeling one is looking for, from being disturbing to having a sense of understanding human nature. I really wish they'd bring some of that back.
Honestly, for me it's the fact the game thrives around organized events and gatherings that adhere to certain formats and wizards of the coast creating products that don't really help new players gain entrance to these gatherings that is problematic. They print planeswalker decks, anthology sets, and duel decks that sometimes have value in them, but what is the point if that value is from cards that aren't currently playable in the popular formats supported by the events and gatherings? If the products that wizards was pushing to new players at least had more playable cards in them it would be possible to at least help steer someone into a deck that can give some fair match ups, but when you have to tell someone that what they bought is essentially worthless and that they have to spend about 30 to 40 more dollars to build a decent deck, that's a problem. That might be cheap to people who are enfranchised crazy folks like myself, but that's 40 dollars on top of a 20 dollar sealed product someone just spent money on. That's not even going into purchasing sleeves, a play mat, a way to store the cards when not playing, tokens, etc.
Why can't wizards give someone a fetchland in a starter deck, or a Dark Confidant? If the price is too high now on the market to do it, who's fault is it at the end of the day? They had ample amounts of time to do something like this to help newer players get started in the game and have some spotlighted and popular cards. Now they can get barely anything.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I wonder if the power creep existing was because of all the spoiled elitists preaching the whole "bad because dies to removal"? Just a random thought really?
YES! Remember the ***** storm that happened when Khans had the reprinted Onslaught fetches? Player base greed, which possibly could also be contributing to WotC being hesitant on certain reprintings, leading to even more artificial inflation. Because you know, profits above all?
In this I 100% agree with you. Precons SHOULD be semi construced viable decks. I can only think of 1 MAYBE 2 times in magic history where that has been true, and one time it was becaused of a banned OP card in said deck, The other was because the format was poorly defined and precons were a newish product where if you bought 2 you could have a soild discard theme playable deck. I am entirly in favor of printing and reprinting any nonreserve list card (in truth I would be ok with reserve list as well but working in small steps) in pre packaged fixed items, flood walmart/target/LGS with it so that the good stuff WILL be cheep. Cheaper the format is to get in to the mroe people that will play. Hell if standard T1 Deck ran only say $60 (average $1 a card) I would be tickled pink happy. That is likely hwere a throwaway format should be priced at.
Personally, I think this is exactly what happened. They stapled every keyword they could think of to Baneslayer Angel because of people saying that about older cards, and some people still even say it about her.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!