This. I put together pauper Elves, Sultai Delver, Reantimator, U-Tron, RG Tron, Caw Blade, Affinity, Mono U, Mono B, UB Control, Goblins, Burn, UW Blink, Infect and ZOO. All together it took about $200 to put all those decks together (I probably already had about 40% of the needed cards.)
if you like that you can have so many decks with so little money compared to other formats, check some LCGS or mage wars , which you have ALL the decks in the game, without singles market and rarities
you pay like 300, and you have the whole game, or a huge part of it ,imagine that! instead of one deck you will get bored of sometime
To me it seems like a Tiny Leaders/Frontier surge of interest, but the interest seems a little more real then as a novelty. I think it doesn't help random cards on the reserve list, but it seems like a decent format. The major issue too, which was stated earlier, is if Wizards supports it, with their branding the same way EDH was branded as Commander. I don't think Wizards is going to go out of their way to put cards into to sets to help this format. I also can't see how they make a product around this.
To me it seems like a Tiny Leaders/Frontier surge of interest, but the interest seems a little more real then as a novelty. I think it doesn't help random cards on the reserve list, but it seems like a decent format. The major issue too, which was stated earlier, is if Wizards supports it, with their branding the same way EDH was branded as Commander. I don't think Wizards is going to go out of their way to put cards into to sets to help this format. I also can't see how they make a product around this.
Why would you have to? Commons are the core building blocks of a limited environment, outside of the more complex commons prior to NWO, you can pretty much jam them into any set you want. There are a few with mechanics that require a specific environment, but for the most part, they are all pretty flexible.
I’ve honestly never witnessed folks go so hard to find a way a format will fail.
This formats redeeming value comes from lots of cheap decks that are fun to play. Take out the cheap part and the decks are not "fun enough 'too warrent that kind of price. The populairty of the format will inversely harm the format due to its highest valued element being eroded away as it gets more popular ( and by extention expensive)
To me it seems like a Tiny Leaders/Frontier surge of interest, but the interest seems a little more real then as a novelty. I think it doesn't help random cards on the reserve list, but it seems like a decent format. The major issue too, which was stated earlier, is if Wizards supports it, with their branding the same way EDH was branded as Commander. I don't think Wizards is going to go out of their way to put cards into to sets to help this format. I also can't see how they make a product around this.
Why would you have to? Commons are the core building blocks of a limited environment, outside of the more complex commons prior to NWO, you can pretty much jam them into any set you want. There are a few with mechanics that require a specific environment, but for the most part, they are all pretty flexible.
I’ve honestly never witnessed folks go so hard to find a way a format will fail.
I didn't state or imply that it would fail. The core of the thread pertains to it being the next 'big' format - challenging air time and tournaments from the top formats. I was speaking to why it won't eclipse Standard, Modern, or EDH.
This formats redeeming value comes from lots of cheap decks that are fun to play. Take out the cheap part and the decks are not "fun enough 'too warrent that kind of price. The populairty of the format will inversely harm the format due to its highest valued element being eroded away as it gets more popular ( and by extention expensive)
The format has everything that wizards would want from a sales perspective as one of the big issues their sealed product has had has been with the distribution of value. Without some kind of tournament format that supports commons, which are the bulk of any major set, it's hard to justify buying boosters over buying singles. This has been one of the driving forces getting players into buying singles instead of packs and why singles sellers are the major consumers of booster box products.
While it is pure speculation, I'm feeling pretty confident that WoTC will support paper pauper. They lose nothing from doing it and it's so easy to reprint commons, even powerful ones from the past, that it will be hard for prices to really go up. Also, pauper is probably one of the best things to happen to this game in a long time because it's supporting actually playing the game of MtG as a constructed card game. The company is just so bad at supporting their own game that people are having to invent new formats all the time just to keep the prices from going to the moons.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I don't really know much about pauper but it seems like it's gotten a lot more interest after CFB announced it as a side event format at GPs they're running
To me it seems like a Tiny Leaders/Frontier surge of interest, but the interest seems a little more real then as a novelty. I think it doesn't help random cards on the reserve list, but it seems like a decent format. The major issue too, which was stated earlier, is if Wizards supports it, with their branding the same way EDH was branded as Commander. I don't think Wizards is going to go out of their way to put cards into to sets to help this format. I also can't see how they make a product around this.
Why would you have to? Commons are the core building blocks of a limited environment, outside of the more complex commons prior to NWO, you can pretty much jam them into any set you want. There are a few with mechanics that require a specific environment, but for the most part, they are all pretty flexible.
I’ve honestly never witnessed folks go so hard to find a way a format will fail.
I didn't state or imply that it would fail. The core of the thread pertains to it being the next 'big' format - challenging air time and tournaments from the top formats. I was speaking to why it won't eclipse Standard, Modern, or EDH.
Well, to address the comparison to Frontier, the two really aren't comparable. MaRo basically killed frontier when he said that he didn't like the starting point (probably because of fetchlands) which is why the format became more of a niche thing played by a few people, compared to the mega hit that Commander / EDH became or the rise of pauper. Also I think pauper fills an important niche in the game that no other format really fills and adds value to the slew of commons that otherwise would be discarded as bulk. It also solves the big problem of the game not having an introductory format. Not that pauper is simple, but it's easy to assemble a deck just from the bulk bins of an LGS.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
This formats redeeming value comes from lots of cheap decks that are fun to play. Take out the cheap part and the decks are not "fun enough 'too warrent that kind of price.
I don't know. To me, this looks like the next best thing to Legacy in terms of fun decks. I can't imagine it will become anywhere near as expensive.
Question, what does the cardpool look like for paper? Do we use only cards that are legal online? What about cards like Maze or Stinkhole that were common in paper but not online? Or old commons that were never printed online at all?
Well, to address the comparison to Frontier, the two really aren't comparable. MaRo basically killed frontier when he said that he didn't like the starting point (probably because of fetchlands) which is why the format became more of a niche thing played by a few people, compared to the mega hit that Commander / EDH became or the rise of pauper. Also I think pauper fills an important niche in the game that no other format really fills and adds value to the slew of commons that otherwise would be discarded as bulk. It also solves the big problem of the game not having an introductory format. Not that pauper is simple, but it's easy to assemble a deck just from the bulk bins of an LGS.
Good point but I was refering to the Hype-Train-wise it seems to be building and how it is eerily similar to the hype around frontier/tiny leaders and why those formats faded into novelty. Mainly due to your point about EDH being more established and open-ended casual format that rook off. I definitely is a more accessible format but the cards that make the better decks are going to become pricey, which is the irony that will hurt the set moving forward.
There will always be expensive commons like Chainer's Edict and Street Wraith. Again, this feels like it needs repeating, but commons are much easier to reprint than rares or mythics. Wizards can basically throw any common into a commander deck or supplementary set to get more copies out there.
Private Mod Note
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Without wanting to dampen the mood on the pauper hype train, that’s not really true. You can’t assemble a competitive pauper deck with leftovers.
Like the other non-rotating formats, you need the format staples, and those won’t cost pennies and won’t be forgotten in the LGS bins.
Important point to the health and longevity of the format.
All formats become more expensive as they pick up steam. But evidence has shown people will flock to a good non-rotating format even if it costs a bit of money. It's only when the entry cost becomes prohibitively large that growth begins to stagnate.
Pauper is miles away from the cost of Standard or Modern; and has more of an "old school" feel as well, being a true eternal format. This makes it a great alternative for people who don't care for the Modern meta and/or prices. Legacy is reaching a critical mass where buying in is out of reach for the majority. 1-on-1 EDH is similarly expensive, and not even that popular. For most people, Pauper is the only option for competitive eternal MTG. I think it will go far (and I am planning on building a deck or 2 myself).
I agree on this. The only other option would be no reserved list legacy, which is easily supportable and probably a better format to play than modern. The main problem hurting the game is the push towards a moba like e-sport environment. Sets can no longer be made with one or two card enablers like gush into kefnet. Instead the deck has to devote ridiculous amounts of space to supporting a core strategy, which murders the variety of possible decks or creates a meta of half baked, clunky nightmares.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I agree on this. The only other option would be no reserved list legacy, which is easily supportable and probably a better format to play than modern.
That is not the ideal format at all. It would be just as, if not more, expensive than Modern.
That's not really the problem of the format. That's a problem created by wizards pushing competitive while still printing the cards as if they are printing for a casual collectible game. The cards seeing play have a supply much lower than the actual demand and wizards laughable attempt at solving this has been to reprint the highly under supplied tools as mythics in a limited set at exorbitant prices. No format, even standard, can survive such a biased direction in card printing. The only thing keeping modern afloat is the laborious consumption of product by older players with larger amounts of available income. Even then the price of the cards themselves prevents all but the most devote of players from truly getting to experience the format in full. MTGO is basically the only place where modern and legacy can be played somewhat freely.
On top of which wizards swapped to a two block standard format and axed core sets in an attempt to force standard play over other formats. This was likely a push from the market and sales to try and sell more sealed product and it has backfired spectacularly. If this was any other game they'd be in some dire straits right about now.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Yeah I'm building a few more decks after trying it out. At around 50-100 usd per deck it's not really all that hard to slowly build up a battle box of decks that are tournament legal. That and the fact they don't rotate is also a blessing.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
It seems a lot of folks are assuming the only draw of Pauper is the cheapness. But, as someone who's played Legacy and Standard for a long time, I actually find Pauper far more fun than other constructed formats.
In Standard and other formats, it feels like many games end up as tight, intense back-and-forth battles...and then the someone just drops a Lyra Dawnbringer or planeswalker or other pushed mythics, and just gets to take over the game, no skill required.
In Pauper, games are won off of tight play only, not being lucky enough to draw your broken cards. Also, to make a deck, you actually have to pack it with tons of synergy, not just dump a random pile of overpowered mythics into an absurd manabase. Certainly there are efficient cards, like Lightning Bolt, but not just grossly unfair card advantage engines that can go into any deck like the new Karn or what-have-you.
Question, what does the cardpool look like for paper? Do we use only cards that are legal online? What about cards like Maze or Stinkhole that were common in paper but not online? Or old commons that were never printed online at all?
Is there an established consensus for paper?
In my experience, most Paper Pauper tournaments just use MTGO Legality (only cards that have been printed as a common on MTGO are legal). The SCG Con and GP Vegas events were MTGO legality, and my local store's Pauper tournaments are.
I think the only major paper Pauper venue that allows all paper commons too is the CardKingdom's Rags to Riches series. They also have an extra ban list with cards with Hymn to Tourach, Sinkhole, and some other stuff.
I think it's good for stores to use MTGO legality, just to have one standard defined format, and reduce confusion. Long term though, if MTGO dies, I'd love for Pauper to move to allow all commons, online and paper. Just because there's lots of old janky common I'd like to play with that aren't Pauper legal now...Dan-Dan, Gaea's Touch, Mystic Remora, so much fun stuff.
MTGO ban list is a little byzantine. We really need WotC to update the gatherer with the ability to search for Pauper legal cards.
Kind of agree with this. Albeit I'm not a super big fan of Gatherer.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Pauper is only open at the kitchen table. If you go full competitive it's a three decks format that barely sees any change with Masters sets rarity shifts because WotC just doesn't produce Pauper-tier commons anymore.
Competitive Pauper offers the worst aspects of Legacy and Standard for cheap, if you remove the cheapness by speculating on staples you end up with a format nobody will like in the end and only end up hurting the casual online Pauper community who play the format because its fun and brew-friendly when 90% of the people aren't playing Stompy, Tron and Delver.
It's far more than a three deck format, but I can understand why someone would think so. Let me put it this way: We're in a gaming culture where if someone finds a really good deck that seems to win vs the field and posts it on the net, throngs of people will go and copy the list and play it without understanding that it is good against the field it was wielded against. Imagine if someone walked into an LGS and the majority of decks being played were burn and affinity and they had "the answer deck" to that specific format. That's kind of what early pauper went through. The reality is the format is pretty deep.
Five months after this post, Delver and Kuldotha are still the overwhelming kings of the format with Stompy, Tron and Tribe firmly on Tier 2 and everyone else playing rock-paper-scissors for 6-8th.
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you pay like 300, and you have the whole game, or a huge part of it ,imagine that! instead of one deck you will get bored of sometime
Δε φοβάμαι τίποτα...
Είμαι Άνεργος.
Grimstringer on Cockatrice, add me if you wanna
(W/U)(B/R)GForm of Progenitus, Shape of a Scrubland
BRGJund Tokens with Prossh, the Magic Dragon Foil
URGAnimar, the RUG CleanerFoil
RRRFeldon of the Third Path 2.0 Foil
BG(B/G)Not Another Meren DeckFoil
UR(U/R)Mizzix, Y Control and X Burn Spells
(W/U)(B/R)GHarold Ramos - The 35 Foot Long Twinkie (In +1/+1 counters)
UB(U/B)Dragonlord Silumgar
Why would you have to? Commons are the core building blocks of a limited environment, outside of the more complex commons prior to NWO, you can pretty much jam them into any set you want. There are a few with mechanics that require a specific environment, but for the most part, they are all pretty flexible.
I’ve honestly never witnessed folks go so hard to find a way a format will fail.
(W/U)(B/R)GForm of Progenitus, Shape of a Scrubland
BRGJund Tokens with Prossh, the Magic Dragon Foil
URGAnimar, the RUG CleanerFoil
RRRFeldon of the Third Path 2.0 Foil
BG(B/G)Not Another Meren DeckFoil
UR(U/R)Mizzix, Y Control and X Burn Spells
(W/U)(B/R)GHarold Ramos - The 35 Foot Long Twinkie (In +1/+1 counters)
UB(U/B)Dragonlord Silumgar
The format has everything that wizards would want from a sales perspective as one of the big issues their sealed product has had has been with the distribution of value. Without some kind of tournament format that supports commons, which are the bulk of any major set, it's hard to justify buying boosters over buying singles. This has been one of the driving forces getting players into buying singles instead of packs and why singles sellers are the major consumers of booster box products.
While it is pure speculation, I'm feeling pretty confident that WoTC will support paper pauper. They lose nothing from doing it and it's so easy to reprint commons, even powerful ones from the past, that it will be hard for prices to really go up. Also, pauper is probably one of the best things to happen to this game in a long time because it's supporting actually playing the game of MtG as a constructed card game. The company is just so bad at supporting their own game that people are having to invent new formats all the time just to keep the prices from going to the moons.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Well, to address the comparison to Frontier, the two really aren't comparable. MaRo basically killed frontier when he said that he didn't like the starting point (probably because of fetchlands) which is why the format became more of a niche thing played by a few people, compared to the mega hit that Commander / EDH became or the rise of pauper. Also I think pauper fills an important niche in the game that no other format really fills and adds value to the slew of commons that otherwise would be discarded as bulk. It also solves the big problem of the game not having an introductory format. Not that pauper is simple, but it's easy to assemble a deck just from the bulk bins of an LGS.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Like the other non-rotating formats, you need the format staples, and those won’t cost pennies and won’t be forgotten in the LGS bins.
I don't know. To me, this looks like the next best thing to Legacy in terms of fun decks. I can't imagine it will become anywhere near as expensive.
Question, what does the cardpool look like for paper? Do we use only cards that are legal online? What about cards like Maze or Stinkhole that were common in paper but not online? Or old commons that were never printed online at all?
Is there an established consensus for paper?
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
Important point to the health and longevity of the format.
(W/U)(B/R)GForm of Progenitus, Shape of a Scrubland
BRGJund Tokens with Prossh, the Magic Dragon Foil
URGAnimar, the RUG CleanerFoil
RRRFeldon of the Third Path 2.0 Foil
BG(B/G)Not Another Meren DeckFoil
UR(U/R)Mizzix, Y Control and X Burn Spells
(W/U)(B/R)GHarold Ramos - The 35 Foot Long Twinkie (In +1/+1 counters)
UB(U/B)Dragonlord Silumgar
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
All formats become more expensive as they pick up steam. But evidence has shown people will flock to a good non-rotating format even if it costs a bit of money. It's only when the entry cost becomes prohibitively large that growth begins to stagnate.
Pauper is miles away from the cost of Standard or Modern; and has more of an "old school" feel as well, being a true eternal format. This makes it a great alternative for people who don't care for the Modern meta and/or prices. Legacy is reaching a critical mass where buying in is out of reach for the majority. 1-on-1 EDH is similarly expensive, and not even that popular. For most people, Pauper is the only option for competitive eternal MTG. I think it will go far (and I am planning on building a deck or 2 myself).
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
That is not the ideal format at all. It would be just as, if not more, expensive than Modern.
That's not really the problem of the format. That's a problem created by wizards pushing competitive while still printing the cards as if they are printing for a casual collectible game. The cards seeing play have a supply much lower than the actual demand and wizards laughable attempt at solving this has been to reprint the highly under supplied tools as mythics in a limited set at exorbitant prices. No format, even standard, can survive such a biased direction in card printing. The only thing keeping modern afloat is the laborious consumption of product by older players with larger amounts of available income. Even then the price of the cards themselves prevents all but the most devote of players from truly getting to experience the format in full. MTGO is basically the only place where modern and legacy can be played somewhat freely.
On top of which wizards swapped to a two block standard format and axed core sets in an attempt to force standard play over other formats. This was likely a push from the market and sales to try and sell more sealed product and it has backfired spectacularly. If this was any other game they'd be in some dire straits right about now.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
In Standard and other formats, it feels like many games end up as tight, intense back-and-forth battles...and then the someone just drops a Lyra Dawnbringer or planeswalker or other pushed mythics, and just gets to take over the game, no skill required.
In Pauper, games are won off of tight play only, not being lucky enough to draw your broken cards. Also, to make a deck, you actually have to pack it with tons of synergy, not just dump a random pile of overpowered mythics into an absurd manabase. Certainly there are efficient cards, like Lightning Bolt, but not just grossly unfair card advantage engines that can go into any deck like the new Karn or what-have-you.
In my experience, most Paper Pauper tournaments just use MTGO Legality (only cards that have been printed as a common on MTGO are legal). The SCG Con and GP Vegas events were MTGO legality, and my local store's Pauper tournaments are.
I think the only major paper Pauper venue that allows all paper commons too is the CardKingdom's Rags to Riches series. They also have an extra ban list with cards with Hymn to Tourach, Sinkhole, and some other stuff.
I think it's good for stores to use MTGO legality, just to have one standard defined format, and reduce confusion. Long term though, if MTGO dies, I'd love for Pauper to move to allow all commons, online and paper. Just because there's lots of old janky common I'd like to play with that aren't Pauper legal now...Dan-Dan, Gaea's Touch, Mystic Remora, so much fun stuff.
Corrupt Control B | Burn R | UG Turbofog UG | White Weenie W | GW Tethmos WG | BG Cycling Combo BG
Enchantress GBW | Colorless Tron C | Red Deck Wins R | UG Madness UG | Mono-G Tron G | UR Puzzlehorns UR
Rhystic Tron WU| WU Prowess WU | BR Reanimator BR | Mono-R Control R | Stompy G | Temur Tron URG
Mardu Infinite Priest WBR | 85-Card Dredge BRG | Elves GU | Boros Bully RW | Jeskai Familiars RWU
Kind of agree with this. Albeit I'm not a super big fan of Gatherer.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
chandra stole my heart
link to my card list
https://deckstats.net/collection/6022/
Five months after this post, Delver and Kuldotha are still the overwhelming kings of the format with Stompy, Tron and Tribe firmly on Tier 2 and everyone else playing rock-paper-scissors for 6-8th.