Yeah they probably won't move to other stuff, but inaction of the YT community made other MTG channels leave and there isn't much incentive to stay with MTG if it's just bothersome. Also, MTG is very cyclical. People leave and come back.
Why would anyone agree with a stance of "Harassment is okay" ?
Can you point anyone who does in this thread?
If anything what intrigues me is why some people feel "agree or don't post" is correct. And I do mean FEEL because we're way past the realm of logical thought on both sides of the argument.
The preoccupied side of the argument is relatively easy to understand (in my opinion) specially if you're not a left-leaning american and come from a society that has faced this kind of situation in real life: Who decideds what I have to agree with? What constitutes agreeing? How vocal do I have to be about agreeeing? What will I have to agree with tomorrow?
It is ok that this website leans left, I unapologetically visit both Reddit and 4chan both to listen to their arguments and to troll them for their propensity towards radicalism and how easy they tilt at differing opinions. Where I didn't go and am certainly glad fell down on it's own hypocrisy was NeoGaf, because "listen and believe" only leads to mindless cult worshipping and I can't wait for Stormfront to suffer the same fate.
Ultimatedly mods further explained the red text in OP is not a concious effort to control the board narrative but a guideline to stay as on-topic as possible within an admitedly far-reaching situation. Which is perfectly fine.
It really bothers me when people think things like this. All of our LGSs have been great places to play, with very few issues with other players. The vast majority of magic players are fine, normal people. There are bad apples in every community.
It's a "pick me up", people who say this sort of crap expect to be told "you're not like the others". It's thankfully becoming less viable every day because of how superficial and vague "the others" is becoming.
Anyway, regarding Jeremy's recent stream of (foretold and warned about) success. While I do agree whole-heartedly with purklefluff and others who say ignoring him shouldn't be the answer. Can you tell me how you punish someone who wants to and benefits from being punished?
That's the puzzle piece we're missing in this argument. People act like he's a random grognard who said something stupid and will fall into nothingness with some scorn. He's not, he's an alt-right lightning rod and these past two days have been the most successful his channel has ever been.
It really bothers me when people think things like this. All of our LGSs have been great places to play, with very few issues with other players. The vast majority of magic players are fine, normal people. There are bad apples in every community.
You know how the saying goes: One bad apple spoils the whole barrel. That's why it's imperative to root out those bad apples from the Magic community.
You know how the saying goes: One bad apple spoils the whole barrel. That's why it's imperative to root out those bad apples from the Magic community.
If someone thinks we need to do something about it, then sure, but don't go around saying that the whole community is "toxic". (Also, man I am tired of that word.)
Also I'm a little confused how people expect to successfully "root it out". The DCI has the power to ban people's DCI numbers, but it's simply not possible to prevent people from participating at local events short of requiring a SSN or something to get a DCI card. At the pro level WotC has control, but outside of that narrow range of influence I think their ability to respond is fairly limited. To say nothing of kitchen table play.
And none of that really matters anyway, as the problem isn't Jeremy (or others) playing the game, but the content they put on social media, which WotC has (so far as I'm aware) zero control over. Maybe with a concerted community effort of flagging videos on youtube his account could be banned, but his audience is still out there and will still follow him to other social media, new accounts, etc. Even if he does quit, the rest of the iceberg is still out there, just below the waterline.
Imo: if you see clear harassment at your LGS, say something. That actually has the potential to get someone's attention and might make a difference - though in my experience at the LGS level I've witnessed no obvious problems (YMMV), and I think smaller problems are best ignored, as I think people are more likely to get defensive and turn it into a bigger deal than it otherwise would be. But trying to fight it online looks like a game of whack-a-mole with no clear end-goal.
At the end of the day, I think the most important thing is to be courteous, be introspective, and lead by example.
You know how the saying goes: One bad apple spoils the whole barrel. That's why it's imperative to root out those bad apples from the Magic community.
If someone thinks we need to do something about it, then sure, but don't go around saying that the whole community is "toxic". (Also, man I am tired of that word.)
Also I'm a little confused how people expect to successfully "root it out". The DCI has the power to ban people's DCI numbers, but it's simply not possible to prevent people from participating at local events short of requiring a SSN or something to get a DCI card. At the pro level WotC has control, but outside of that narrow range of influence I think their ability to respond is fairly limited. To say nothing of kitchen table play.
And none of that really matters anyway, as the problem isn't Jeremy (or others) playing the game, but the content they put on social media, which WotC has (so far as I'm aware) zero control over. Maybe with a concerted community effort of flagging videos on youtube his account could be banned, but his audience is still out there and will still follow him to other social media, new accounts, etc. Even if he does quit, the rest of the iceberg is still out there, just below the waterline.
Imo: if you see clear harassment at your LGS, say something. That actually has the potential to get someone's attention and might make a difference - though in my experience at the LGS level I've witnessed no obvious problems (YMMV), and I think smaller problems are best ignored, as I think people are more likely to get defensive and turn it into a bigger deal than it otherwise would be. But trying to fight it online looks like a game of whack-a-mole with no clear end-goal.
At the end of the day, I think the most important thing is to be courteous, be introspective, and lead by example.
I think I agree. Going on some kind of grand online take down of all the bad elements of the community is never going to work. You can't just get rid of them.
EDIT: To elaborate, what I think is important to make it clear in the community what the bad and good elements are. If you want to remove the bad elements, you have to let them fade over time, not by force.
Yeah I know. What I wrote was more of an exaggeration. However, at the same time I wouldn't be surprise as well. The money in this activity is really not there and there are limits for passion and love of the game. For instance, Derium still deals with MTG in some extend, but not in the YT community.
I see similar drama happening in other fandoms and circles in YT, the only difference is to me MTG YT community comes out of each of these dramas smaller and weaker. MTG as a hobby seems like it refuses to grow up. Sorta like videogame, RPG, but I kinda see them growing out of that phase slowly but surely.
It just worries me that the MTG Youtube comes out of this periodic dramas weaker and weaker. I kinda laughed and amused myself at the circus getting burned, but now it's getting old.
I think I agree. Going on some kind of grand online take down of all the bad elements of the community is never going to work. You can't just get rid of them.
No, but you can drive hate underground and make it social suicide for someone to engage in hateful behaviour. We can't police people's thoughts (and nor should we even if we somehow could), but we can certainly police people's behaviour. The less bigotry that gets represented and normalized within the community (such as by the community giving them a platform by ignoring them, allowing them to preach to the choir), the fewer bigots will feel empowered to do more of the same.
Even if WotC bans Jeremy from attending sanctioned events, they're not going to get him to stop making videos.
I didn't care for the guy before this came up, and I don't care for him any more now, but there's a limit to how effective action against him will be. But an upheld community pledge to not let this be considered acceptable goes a longer way.
At this point I'm more concerned about the direction this is taking. The problem is that Jeremy is like a cornered animal right now and has basically decided that if he is going down with the ship, he might as well try to take the people he perceives have scorned him down with him or at least harm them. His latest video he discussed the investigation being done by wizards, posted what was supposed to be a private correspondence, and then proceeded to state that if wizards takes action against him, they must be consistent and apply action against all the people he is accusing of accosting him. Now, this wouldn't mean much, except he also stated in some earlier videos that Jimmy Wong, members of Loading Ready Run, Wedge, and the professor all at one point or another during this fiasco attacked him, which isn't true.
These people represent some of the lifeblood of the MTG community. For a lot of people they are one of the things keeping them connected to the game. Technically, the events over Thanksgiving break already caused Seiban to leave. I don't know what will happen if suddenly all these groups lost sponsorships from companies like Wizards or even SCG / Card Kingdom because of this Gamers Gate mark 2. The only thing I got to say is that what befalls him is his own doing and the best I can hope for is wizards doesn't punish the other content creators that have done basically nothing wrong.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
humm i m just here to say that the comunity ( most of it ) got toxic and i aways turned away fron it, faking blindness, but i have to say: people should actually not give attention to what mtgh/unsleavedmidia(?) say and instead try to inprove your local community. Call out people for harassing other people in a semi-sexual way ( a guy fixed on a girl, looking at her every time, forcing her to talk to hin, etc... ), give old cards to new players, play with them, include them into the store , make it a new friend, etc. We could inprove soo much by doing simple things in real life... Discussing it in internet is the same as doing nothing, really
I think this thread and discussion has pretty much run its course until the next major development, but I have a few things to say about the discourse itself. I don't think anyone here has explicitly advocated or endorsed harassment. A small few have kind of danced around it, which is much more insidious. There may be some who may question if the reaction is overblown or inappropriate. Others may think it's offense culture run amok. There's more to this discussion than just being pro- or anti-harassment. There are ancillary elements worth discussing, which shouldn't be censored. Having said all that, Jeremy's words and actions are indefensible, and I don't understand the mental gymnastics necessary to defend him, which leads me to my final point:
We can go around in circles all day, but the evidence has been presented. His history of scumbaggery really doesn't leave him a leg to stand on. He's not a victim, he's not a free speech martyr; he's just an angry little man who can't handle the fact that women and minorities have the audacity to demand fair and decent treatment. Who could defend someone who posts vile garbage like this?
I think I agree. Going on some kind of grand online take down of all the bad elements of the community is never going to work. You can't just get rid of them.
No, but you can drive hate underground and make it social suicide for someone to engage in hateful behavior. We can't police people's thoughts (and nor should we even if we somehow could), but we can certainly police people's behavior. The less bigotry that gets represented and normalized within the community (such as by the community giving them a platform by ignoring them, allowing them to preach to the choir), the fewer bigots will feel empowered to do more of the same.
I WANT to agree with you, because that is how it should work. Except, I don't think it does.
If this is at the LGS and someone is acting like this, YES, you are 100% right.. because there is a limited audience and calling out bad behavior will either shut the person down causing them to be an outcast OR show you that that is a LGS you shouldn't go to anymore. Internet tho, well no press is bad Press. Controversy helps on the internet. Social suicide in social networks is literally causing people to ignore you. Jimmy Wong from the Command zone had the right idea with his post, he didn't even tag the person he felt was acting toxic.
If this is at the LGS and someone is acting like this, YES, you are 100% right.. because there is a limited audience and calling out bad behavior will either shut the person down causing them to be an outcast OR show you that that is a LGS you shouldn't go to anymore. Internet tho, well no press is bad Press. Controversy helps on the internet. Social suicide in social networks is literally causing people to ignore you. Jimmy Wong from the Command zone had the right idea with his post, he didn't even tag the person he felt was acting toxic.
Getting banned from available platforms really does help stifle one's message, though. Milo Yiannapoulos learned that lesson the hard way.
Getting banned from available platforms really does help stifle one's message, though. Milo Yiannapoulos learned that lesson the hard way.
Milo Y. is an odd case and was only really hurt when it came out he said something that his own base hated. Twitter banning him didn't hurt him really since there were other platforms. In fact it made him a martyr to a degree and there were conservatives that otherwise would have hated him that had to back him.
Time will tell if this is the same for those in question here. I suspect given what has made some of these youtube personalities popular to begin with, it will have little effect although I hope I'm wrong.
On the topic of calling out harassment where it exists in the community, I've seen a petition made which aims to feed back to Patreon with a chunk of evidence of Jeremy's behaviours, and effectively 'de-fund the hate'.
I think as a balanced response to his behaviour, this is probably where we want to be? It's not fighting hate with hate, it's not yet another personal, demeaning attack. It's just passing on evidence of his misdeeds to the organisation who facilitates him profiting off all of this. If Patreon considers his behaviour wrongful (I sincerely hope they do) then he'll have got a strong message from the community without anyone actually throwing an insult or threat back at him, which is positive.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Right now, I am against both sides of the party. I think Jeremy needs to be punished. I would be on Sprankle's side, but because money is involved, I can't be fully be committed to be on her side either.
I had an instructor whose ex-wife called the cops on him for everything wrong in her life, when my instructor had done nothing wrong. Cops had enough of it and told her to stop calling the cops or be arrested.
I am in support of a fair punishment for Jeremy for his actions. A simple DCI suspension should do the trick. If he does something objectionable again in the future, a longer DCI suspension, and again, a permanent ban. What I am not in support of is people thinking it isn't enough until he is run into the ground, heck even being a bum in the streets isn't enough. Death penalty. This causes an environment of fear in the MTG community, and I do not like that.
What if some person is on edge, stressed out, and when you are angry, your brain turns off, lashes out at everyone on social media, and there is someone with anxiety problems, who has a following, reads it, thoughts put on social media, and followers attack the former guy because of it? I am pretty sure none of us will pull off a Jeremy, but when emotions run high, all bets are off.
From what I can tell here, and in the MTG subreddit, if you aren't actively trying to run Jeremy into the ground, you deserved to be ostracized from the group.
I don't know if I have mentioned this, but does anyone here follow hockey, especially the NHL? There is this agitator named Sean Avery. Everybody hates him. He did that goalie screen thing with Martin Brodeur, and a bunch of other stuff, but he is well known for this:
Quote from Sean Avery »
I want to comment on how it's become, like, a common thing in the NHL for guys to fall in love with my sloppy seconds.
He got an indefinite suspension, and the media was very critical of him. Nobody ever sent death threats, nor did they try to run his life into the ground.
There are two things hockey fans hate. Cheap shots and diving.
If it is a disparaging remark, punish him. If it is physical abuse, harsher punishment, because when the harasser hits rock bottom, he, or she, can't go any lower than that.
I just don't want the MTG community to become a dictatorship, authoritarian, or totalitarian, that is all.
Although I comment on here, and on youtube comments on MTG, I do not play against anyone unless it is someone I know, so in a way, I was never part of the community to begin with, but with what is happening recently, with Jeremy's comments, and with comments from the other side wanting WOTC or authoritative figures to run his life into the ground, it cements the fact, to me, that the MTG environment is an environment of fear. This environment of fear gets propagated when hate mobs are involved.
I think I agree. Going on some kind of grand online take down of all the bad elements of the community is never going to work. You can't just get rid of them.
No, but you can drive hate underground and make it social suicide for someone to engage in hateful behaviour. We can't police people's thoughts (and nor should we even if we somehow could), but we can certainly police people's behaviour. The less bigotry that gets represented and normalized within the community (such as by the community giving them a platform by ignoring them, allowing them to preach to the choir), the fewer bigots will feel empowered to do more of the same.
Certainly, we can address the issue within community discussion, and treating harassment as harassment and not simply allowing it. But I don't think we should try to shout people down, block them out of everything, or otherwise perform actions that aren't going to change anything, because even if they counter the actions of some, they can just as easily motivate others. Certainly personally attacking people doesn't help.
On the topic of calling out harassment where it exists in the community, I've seen a petition made which aims to feed back to Patreon with a chunk of evidence of Jeremy's behaviours, and effectively 'de-fund the hate'.
I think as a balanced response to his behaviour, this is probably where we want to be? It's not fighting hate with hate, it's not yet another personal, demeaning attack. It's just passing on evidence of his misdeeds to the organisation who facilitates him profiting off all of this. If Patreon considers his behaviour wrongful (I sincerely hope they do) then he'll have got a strong message from the community without anyone actually throwing an insult or threat back at him, which is positive.
The proper course of action should have been Christine suing Jeremy for damages, not the public going after Jeremy for her and the rest of the MTG youtube community blowing up and turning this into a grand social mudslinging contest that got even WoTC and potentially any company hosting sponsorships involved.
Also, MTG Lion needs to stop flailing his arms around and Travis Woo, while he has his spirit in the right spot, needs to stop making content on the situation because it's actually making it worse. The people who drive these situations don't care about the kind of message Travis is trying to send. They'll use his post to home in on the controversy and then fire it up because they are like a match stick.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
On the topic of calling out harassment where it exists in the community, I've seen a petition made which aims to feed back to Patreon with a chunk of evidence of Jeremy's behaviours, and effectively 'de-fund the hate'.
I think as a balanced response to his behaviour, this is probably where we want to be? It's not fighting hate with hate, it's not yet another personal, demeaning attack. It's just passing on evidence of his misdeeds to the organisation who facilitates him profiting off all of this. If Patreon considers his behaviour wrongful (I sincerely hope they do) then he'll have got a strong message from the community without anyone actually throwing an insult or threat back at him, which is positive.
The proper course of action should have been Christine suing Jeremy for damages, not the public going after Jeremy for her and the rest of the MTG youtube community blowing up and turning this into a grand social mudslinging contest that got even WoTC and potentially any company hosting sponsorships involved.
Also, MTG Lion needs to stop flailing his arms around and Travis Woo, while he has his spirit in the right spot, needs to stop making content on the situation because it's actually making it worse. The people who drive these situations don't care about the kind of message Travis is trying to send. They'll use his post to home in on the controversy and then fire it up because they are like a match stick.
Agree with you on both counts. The community should care about the message. But everyone seems to want the fix everything for themselves. That's admirable, but it can make things worse.
It really bothers me when people think things like this. All of our LGSs have been great places to play, with very few issues with other players. The vast majority of magic players are fine, normal people. There are bad apples in every community.
You know how the saying goes: One bad apple spoils the whole barrel. That's why it's imperative to root out those bad apples from the Magic community.
Reminds me of a joke:
What do you call a drop of wine in a barrel of raw sewage? Raw Sewage.
What do you call a drop of raw sewage in a barrel of wine? Raw Sewage.
Even an infinitesimal amount of nastiness can be sufficient to ruin an entire lot. If the "isolated incidents"* in magic were lower publicity, it might be fair to argue that Magic Community isn't toxic. But, at least in this case, they aren't they are high publicity. While there are a lot of small welcoming communities of Magic, probably more than aren't welcoming, the problem of publicity ruins many women's desire to go in the first place. So they never discover the communities that are welcoming.
WOTC said that any harassment made by the followers of a person puts responsibility on the person, not the individual follower. I think this is stupid, and here's why.
If you murder someone in self defense, you are not guilty if there is sufficient evidence that the murdered person was going to commit a serious crime. You will become guilty, however if you murder someone for past crimes, you are guilty of murder. Jeremy pretty much "murdered" someone, never got caught, and finally got caught 6 months after the fact.
That being said, the Sprankle followers harassing Jeremy. Those people are despicable, and an embarrassment to this community. Those people need to realize that because of WOTC's policy of the actions made by followers of a person puts responsibility on the person, then it means that Sprankle will take the hit, which is why the idea that it's Jeremy's fault for his followers harassing Sprankle, is stupid.
Harassment is harassment is harassment, retaliatory or not.
The thing is that it's a situation where both sides are decidedly not equal. On the one hand, we have a member of the community who may or may not have done some things people dislike (such as play Flip It Or Rip It) and members of the community who act in utterly toxic, virulent ways that actively serve to shrink the community by driving people away. Defending the latter is defending trolling and harassment, and MTGSalvation is not the space for such activities. Therefore, discussing recent events is fine, but attempting to defend abhorrent behaviour and those who commit same is not fine. I won't speak to the above-infracted post, but it's perfectly possible to have a civilized discussion about the events surrounding Christine Sprankle without delving into "SJW" nonsense.
So whats the point of this thread?
Then you acted shocked that people act certain ways after you cut off all legitimate discussion?
Public Mod Note
(Wildfire393):
Warning for spam - Complaining about the moderation is wildly off-topic
Then you acted shocked that people act certain ways after you cut off all legitimate discussion?
You can't say *****, **** or ********, it gets automatically censored. And yet we can hold discussions. (I'll let you figure out what the stars are hiding.)
The very few terms and subjects forbidden do not preclude discussion. They only preclude useless flaming, trolling and provocations. It's been explained repeatedly in this thread.
If you can't discuss without resorting to those few words and subjects, then the rationale WORKED.
Can you point anyone who does in this thread?
If anything what intrigues me is why some people feel "agree or don't post" is correct. And I do mean FEEL because we're way past the realm of logical thought on both sides of the argument.
The preoccupied side of the argument is relatively easy to understand (in my opinion) specially if you're not a left-leaning american and come from a society that has faced this kind of situation in real life: Who decideds what I have to agree with? What constitutes agreeing? How vocal do I have to be about agreeeing? What will I have to agree with tomorrow?
It is ok that this website leans left, I unapologetically visit both Reddit and 4chan both to listen to their arguments and to troll them for their propensity towards radicalism and how easy they tilt at differing opinions. Where I didn't go and am certainly glad fell down on it's own hypocrisy was NeoGaf, because "listen and believe" only leads to mindless cult worshipping and I can't wait for Stormfront to suffer the same fate.
Ultimatedly mods further explained the red text in OP is not a concious effort to control the board narrative but a guideline to stay as on-topic as possible within an admitedly far-reaching situation. Which is perfectly fine.
It's a "pick me up", people who say this sort of crap expect to be told "you're not like the others". It's thankfully becoming less viable every day because of how superficial and vague "the others" is becoming.
Anyway, regarding Jeremy's recent stream of (foretold and warned about) success. While I do agree whole-heartedly with purklefluff and others who say ignoring him shouldn't be the answer. Can you tell me how you punish someone who wants to and benefits from being punished?
That's the puzzle piece we're missing in this argument. People act like he's a random grognard who said something stupid and will fall into nothingness with some scorn. He's not, he's an alt-right lightning rod and these past two days have been the most successful his channel has ever been.
You know how the saying goes: One bad apple spoils the whole barrel. That's why it's imperative to root out those bad apples from the Magic community.
Also I'm a little confused how people expect to successfully "root it out". The DCI has the power to ban people's DCI numbers, but it's simply not possible to prevent people from participating at local events short of requiring a SSN or something to get a DCI card. At the pro level WotC has control, but outside of that narrow range of influence I think their ability to respond is fairly limited. To say nothing of kitchen table play.
And none of that really matters anyway, as the problem isn't Jeremy (or others) playing the game, but the content they put on social media, which WotC has (so far as I'm aware) zero control over. Maybe with a concerted community effort of flagging videos on youtube his account could be banned, but his audience is still out there and will still follow him to other social media, new accounts, etc. Even if he does quit, the rest of the iceberg is still out there, just below the waterline.
Imo: if you see clear harassment at your LGS, say something. That actually has the potential to get someone's attention and might make a difference - though in my experience at the LGS level I've witnessed no obvious problems (YMMV), and I think smaller problems are best ignored, as I think people are more likely to get defensive and turn it into a bigger deal than it otherwise would be. But trying to fight it online looks like a game of whack-a-mole with no clear end-goal.
At the end of the day, I think the most important thing is to be courteous, be introspective, and lead by example.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I think I agree. Going on some kind of grand online take down of all the bad elements of the community is never going to work. You can't just get rid of them.
EDIT: To elaborate, what I think is important to make it clear in the community what the bad and good elements are. If you want to remove the bad elements, you have to let them fade over time, not by force.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
I don't think they'll all follow Seiben's lead.
Thanks for pointing that out. Fixed. Here's the correct link.
Yeah I know. What I wrote was more of an exaggeration. However, at the same time I wouldn't be surprise as well. The money in this activity is really not there and there are limits for passion and love of the game. For instance, Derium still deals with MTG in some extend, but not in the YT community.
I see similar drama happening in other fandoms and circles in YT, the only difference is to me MTG YT community comes out of each of these dramas smaller and weaker. MTG as a hobby seems like it refuses to grow up. Sorta like videogame, RPG, but I kinda see them growing out of that phase slowly but surely.
It just worries me that the MTG Youtube comes out of this periodic dramas weaker and weaker. I kinda laughed and amused myself at the circus getting burned, but now it's getting old.
No, but you can drive hate underground and make it social suicide for someone to engage in hateful behaviour. We can't police people's thoughts (and nor should we even if we somehow could), but we can certainly police people's behaviour. The less bigotry that gets represented and normalized within the community (such as by the community giving them a platform by ignoring them, allowing them to preach to the choir), the fewer bigots will feel empowered to do more of the same.
At this point I'm more concerned about the direction this is taking. The problem is that Jeremy is like a cornered animal right now and has basically decided that if he is going down with the ship, he might as well try to take the people he perceives have scorned him down with him or at least harm them. His latest video he discussed the investigation being done by wizards, posted what was supposed to be a private correspondence, and then proceeded to state that if wizards takes action against him, they must be consistent and apply action against all the people he is accusing of accosting him. Now, this wouldn't mean much, except he also stated in some earlier videos that Jimmy Wong, members of Loading Ready Run, Wedge, and the professor all at one point or another during this fiasco attacked him, which isn't true.
These people represent some of the lifeblood of the MTG community. For a lot of people they are one of the things keeping them connected to the game. Technically, the events over Thanksgiving break already caused Seiban to leave. I don't know what will happen if suddenly all these groups lost sponsorships from companies like Wizards or even SCG / Card Kingdom because of this Gamers Gate mark 2. The only thing I got to say is that what befalls him is his own doing and the best I can hope for is wizards doesn't punish the other content creators that have done basically nothing wrong.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
We can go around in circles all day, but the evidence has been presented. His history of scumbaggery really doesn't leave him a leg to stand on. He's not a victim, he's not a free speech martyr; he's just an angry little man who can't handle the fact that women and minorities have the audacity to demand fair and decent treatment. Who could defend someone who posts vile garbage like this?
My 720 Peasant Cube
I WANT to agree with you, because that is how it should work. Except, I don't think it does.
If this is at the LGS and someone is acting like this, YES, you are 100% right.. because there is a limited audience and calling out bad behavior will either shut the person down causing them to be an outcast OR show you that that is a LGS you shouldn't go to anymore. Internet tho, well no press is bad Press. Controversy helps on the internet. Social suicide in social networks is literally causing people to ignore you. Jimmy Wong from the Command zone had the right idea with his post, he didn't even tag the person he felt was acting toxic.
Getting banned from available platforms really does help stifle one's message, though. Milo Yiannapoulos learned that lesson the hard way.
Milo Y. is an odd case and was only really hurt when it came out he said something that his own base hated. Twitter banning him didn't hurt him really since there were other platforms. In fact it made him a martyr to a degree and there were conservatives that otherwise would have hated him that had to back him.
Time will tell if this is the same for those in question here. I suspect given what has made some of these youtube personalities popular to begin with, it will have little effect although I hope I'm wrong.
I think as a balanced response to his behaviour, this is probably where we want to be? It's not fighting hate with hate, it's not yet another personal, demeaning attack. It's just passing on evidence of his misdeeds to the organisation who facilitates him profiting off all of this. If Patreon considers his behaviour wrongful (I sincerely hope they do) then he'll have got a strong message from the community without anyone actually throwing an insult or threat back at him, which is positive.
I had an instructor whose ex-wife called the cops on him for everything wrong in her life, when my instructor had done nothing wrong. Cops had enough of it and told her to stop calling the cops or be arrested.
I am in support of a fair punishment for Jeremy for his actions. A simple DCI suspension should do the trick. If he does something objectionable again in the future, a longer DCI suspension, and again, a permanent ban. What I am not in support of is people thinking it isn't enough until he is run into the ground, heck even being a bum in the streets isn't enough. Death penalty. This causes an environment of fear in the MTG community, and I do not like that.
What if some person is on edge, stressed out, and when you are angry, your brain turns off, lashes out at everyone on social media, and there is someone with anxiety problems, who has a following, reads it, thoughts put on social media, and followers attack the former guy because of it? I am pretty sure none of us will pull off a Jeremy, but when emotions run high, all bets are off.
From what I can tell here, and in the MTG subreddit, if you aren't actively trying to run Jeremy into the ground, you deserved to be ostracized from the group.
I don't know if I have mentioned this, but does anyone here follow hockey, especially the NHL? There is this agitator named Sean Avery. Everybody hates him. He did that goalie screen thing with Martin Brodeur, and a bunch of other stuff, but he is well known for this:
He got an indefinite suspension, and the media was very critical of him. Nobody ever sent death threats, nor did they try to run his life into the ground.
There are two things hockey fans hate. Cheap shots and diving.
If it is a disparaging remark, punish him. If it is physical abuse, harsher punishment, because when the harasser hits rock bottom, he, or she, can't go any lower than that.
I just don't want the MTG community to become a dictatorship, authoritarian, or totalitarian, that is all.
Although I comment on here, and on youtube comments on MTG, I do not play against anyone unless it is someone I know, so in a way, I was never part of the community to begin with, but with what is happening recently, with Jeremy's comments, and with comments from the other side wanting WOTC or authoritative figures to run his life into the ground, it cements the fact, to me, that the MTG environment is an environment of fear. This environment of fear gets propagated when hate mobs are involved.
Certainly, we can address the issue within community discussion, and treating harassment as harassment and not simply allowing it. But I don't think we should try to shout people down, block them out of everything, or otherwise perform actions that aren't going to change anything, because even if they counter the actions of some, they can just as easily motivate others. Certainly personally attacking people doesn't help.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
The proper course of action should have been Christine suing Jeremy for damages, not the public going after Jeremy for her and the rest of the MTG youtube community blowing up and turning this into a grand social mudslinging contest that got even WoTC and potentially any company hosting sponsorships involved.
Also, MTG Lion needs to stop flailing his arms around and Travis Woo, while he has his spirit in the right spot, needs to stop making content on the situation because it's actually making it worse. The people who drive these situations don't care about the kind of message Travis is trying to send. They'll use his post to home in on the controversy and then fire it up because they are like a match stick.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Agree with you on both counts. The community should care about the message. But everyone seems to want the fix everything for themselves. That's admirable, but it can make things worse.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Reminds me of a joke:
What do you call a drop of wine in a barrel of raw sewage? Raw Sewage.
What do you call a drop of raw sewage in a barrel of wine? Raw Sewage.
Even an infinitesimal amount of nastiness can be sufficient to ruin an entire lot. If the "isolated incidents"* in magic were lower publicity, it might be fair to argue that Magic Community isn't toxic. But, at least in this case, they aren't they are high publicity. While there are a lot of small welcoming communities of Magic, probably more than aren't welcoming, the problem of publicity ruins many women's desire to go in the first place. So they never discover the communities that are welcoming.
If you murder someone in self defense, you are not guilty if there is sufficient evidence that the murdered person was going to commit a serious crime. You will become guilty, however if you murder someone for past crimes, you are guilty of murder. Jeremy pretty much "murdered" someone, never got caught, and finally got caught 6 months after the fact.
That being said, the Sprankle followers harassing Jeremy. Those people are despicable, and an embarrassment to this community. Those people need to realize that because of WOTC's policy of the actions made by followers of a person puts responsibility on the person, then it means that Sprankle will take the hit, which is why the idea that it's Jeremy's fault for his followers harassing Sprankle, is stupid.
Harassment is harassment is harassment, retaliatory or not.
So whats the point of this thread?
Then you acted shocked that people act certain ways after you cut off all legitimate discussion?
to see which side of the fence you are on and punish you if you are not on the mods side.
You can't say *****, **** or ********, it gets automatically censored. And yet we can hold discussions. (I'll let you figure out what the stars are hiding.)
The very few terms and subjects forbidden do not preclude discussion. They only preclude useless flaming, trolling and provocations. It's been explained repeatedly in this thread.
If you can't discuss without resorting to those few words and subjects, then the rationale WORKED.