I guess the distinction between ruining something and crapping all over it is too subtle for my poor little brain.
I never made any distinction between "ruining" something and "crapping all over it." How in the world did you take away that from my message? That wasn't the distinction I was drawing at all. I was pointing out that the Eldrazi creature cards didn't have much impact in Standard (in contrast to Modern where they took over the place and Legacy where they became a real force). I'm really confused how you're misunderstanding what I said.
I’m skeptical. As a survivor of the Dungeons and Dragons edition wars, the topic of WotC being sold was brought up time and again by wishful thinkers of all sides. It was always given the same answer, which is that historically Hasbro NEVER sells anything they hold the rights to.
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I didn't say anything about whether it ruined or didn't ruin Standard. What I said was that the Eldrazi, far from "crapping all over" Standard, were actually bit players...
Are you just messing with me?
You are clearly saying the new Eldrazi didn't "crap all over Standard", but apparently making no assertion as to whether or not they ruined it? Obviously you are making a distinction...
The only Eldrazi that hurt Standard was Spaghetti Monster. Over Pushed Story BS.
Thought-Knot was fine with restrictive casting cost.
Ulamog would have been fine if they didn't think cheating him in on turn 4 was 'all good'. Reality Smasher was strong but didn't take over anything, you just had to plan for it like any hasty creature.
I played all through that time period and Eldrazi didn't outshine or dominate. In fact just a few here and there popped up in decks to do work. Most of that set was chaff.
*NOTE - I am not talking about Modern in any way. Only Standard.
Simply put, there is a lot about Magic that just plain sucks right now. Standard had been some shade of boring since Dragons of Tarkir and Origins rotated. An unprecedented nine cards have been banned in the last two years. There's an absurd glut of product being released. Masters products have become dull and unexciting since they come out so often. There are a ton of expensive, unwanted supplemental products sitting on LGS shelves.
It just seems like Wizards has lost the plot, and if Dominaria isn't the course correction that the game so sorely needs, I for one will have to seriously examine if the game is still worth my time and effort.
Unprecedented? Look back at the Urza's Saga block. There were ten bans in Standard in less than a year. Heck, there were also nine cards banned back in 2004/2005 (Mirrodin), all in less than one year (sure, wasn't the same calendar year, but it was less than 12 months). Though admittedly, that one might not be fair to count because they had to ban the whole artifact land cycle, so it was really more like they banned 3 cards and then banned another card 6 times. Still, there's been two times in the past they banned 9 or more cards in one year in Standard.
What is unprecedented however, is to have as many separate times in one year when bans were announced. The Mirrodin ones were spread out over two banning announcements, and the Urza's Saga ones were spread out over three. We've had four banning announcements in one year. It might not be the highest number of cards banned, but I think the number of separate announcements is actually a more important measurement because it's how often things got changed by bannings.
Kinda annoyed you would compare Urza's (beloved) insanity to this block... Urza had bans because games were consistently ending turn 2.... The joke of "early game is the coin toss, mid game is turn one" was a real thing. You are comparing the two most powerful blocks in the entirety of magics history to this garbage. Their is also the time to consider, the Urza/mirridon were considered and admitted to be mistakes on designs part, They admited that adding the -1 toughness on skull clamp was a last min thing they thought would weaken the card but did not test it, They are ment to try to learn from these errors and NOT make them again. None of these cards are memory jar, none of these cards are skullclamp. This many mistakes in this day and age without the awesome fun powerful causal appeal OF the block to back it is uncalled for and silly. Both of these sets were sets that pushed the power level of everything at the time to new heights and were products of experimentation.
... you want to see power? put ANY standard legal deck ignore bans, against one from that era also ignoring bans and we will see which "should be banned" (use a standard list not a "meta changed one" )
I didn't say anything about whether it ruined or didn't ruin Standard. What I said was that the Eldrazi, far from "crapping all over" Standard, were actually bit players...
Are you just messing with me?
You are clearly saying the new Eldrazi didn't "crap all over Standard", but apparently making no assertion as to whether or not they ruined it? Obviously you are making a distinction...
Okay, I think I finally see your confusion. Let's go back to my message and clear up what I think the issue is.
I never actually played that Standard. Just going by what I've heard from people who did. I have no opinion on the matter myself.
Edit - I think you might be the first person ever to tell me OotG didn't ruin Standard.
I didn't say anything about whether it ruined or didn't ruin Standard. What I said was that the Eldrazi, far from "crapping all over" Standard, were actually bit players. Siege Rhino was more obnoxious than the whole lot of them put together. Oath of the Gatewatch may have caused some problems in Standard, but it wasn't the Eldrazi doing it.
You seem to be interpreting the underlined/bolded "it" as referring to the Eldrazi, when the word "it" was in reference to Oath of the Gatewatch. I'm a little confused as to how you arrived at that interpretation, as not only was my phrasing clearly a repetition of what you said about Oath of the Gatewatch, the plurality doesn't match up at all if I was referring to the Eldrazi ("the Eldrazi" is plural and therefore I would have used "they" had I been referring to it). Still, I believe that's the misunderstanding. I was trying a distinction between the Eldrazi cards and the Oath of the Gatewatch set. My point was that whether or not Oath of the Gatewatch the set ruined Standard or caused problems, it was not the Eldrazi cards in Oath of the Gatewatch that were the problem, as they were only a minor force in Standard, contrary to your claim that they "crapped all over" it.
Simply put, there is a lot about Magic that just plain sucks right now. Standard had been some shade of boring since Dragons of Tarkir and Origins rotated. An unprecedented nine cards have been banned in the last two years. There's an absurd glut of product being released. Masters products have become dull and unexciting since they come out so often. There are a ton of expensive, unwanted supplemental products sitting on LGS shelves.
It just seems like Wizards has lost the plot, and if Dominaria isn't the course correction that the game so sorely needs, I for one will have to seriously examine if the game is still worth my time and effort.
Unprecedented? Look back at the Urza's Saga block. There were ten bans in Standard in less than a year. Heck, there were also nine cards banned back in 2004/2005 (Mirrodin), all in less than one year (sure, wasn't the same calendar year, but it was less than 12 months). Though admittedly, that one might not be fair to count because they had to ban the whole artifact land cycle, so it was really more like they banned 3 cards and then banned another card 6 times. Still, there's been two times in the past they banned 9 or more cards in one year in Standard.
What is unprecedented however, is to have as many separate times in one year when bans were announced. The Mirrodin ones were spread out over two banning announcements, and the Urza's Saga ones were spread out over three. We've had four banning announcements in one year. It might not be the highest number of cards banned, but I think the number of separate announcements is actually a more important measurement because it's how often things got changed by bannings.
Kinda annoyed you would compare Urza's (beloved) insanity to this block... Urza had bans because games were consistently ending turn 2.... The joke of "early game is the coin toss, mid game is turn one" was a real thing. You are comparing the two most powerful blocks in the entirety of magics history to this garbage. Their is also the time to consider, the Urza/mirridon were considered and admitted to be mistakes on designs part, They admited that adding the -1 toughness on skull clamp was a last min thing they thought would weaken the card but did not test it, They are ment to try to learn from these errors and NOT make them again. None of these cards are memory jar, none of these cards are skullclamp. This many mistakes in this day and age without the awesome fun powerful causal appeal OF the block to back it is uncalled for and silly. Both of these sets were sets that pushed the power level of everything at the time to new heights and were products of experimentation.
I'm rather confused what you're taking issue with in my message? The statement was "an unprecedented nine cards have been banned in the last two years." I demonstrated how that's hardly unprecedented by pointing out that even more cards were banned during Urza's Saga Standard and the same amount of cards were banned during Mirrodin block (well, if you count the artifact lands separately). So what exactly are you annoyed about? You seem to be passionately arguing against a claim I never made.
I’m skeptical. As a survivor of the Dungeons and Dragons edition wars, the topic of WotC being sold was brought up time and again by wishful thinkers of all sides. It was always given the same answer, which is that historically Hasbro NEVER sells anything they hold the rights to.
Watched it thanks. She mentions several possible interested parties that I figured as well. I still think Disney would be the highest bidder. They couldn't wait to slap Mickey Mouse ears on every pack sold for free advertising. Probably end up on the backs of the cards as well. The genre would fill a hole they have in their movie lineup as well. I think Hasbro would be foolish to sell, but if they do, look for Disney to make the move.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
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Perhaps its the poor communction via text. My point was that while things like that have indeed happened in the past they are often far apart, publicly acknowledged by the company as a "we done goofed" Typically such a thing happens from a VERY powerful format breaking block. Having this many bans when a format isn't creating its own acrtype in legacy and format staples in vintage is unheard of. My thought was people are more shocked this could happen with a set that has so little to inpact eternal formats. Your right it has happened before but never from a block that was so weak.
The amazing thing about the current magic is how they managed to make standard weaker as a whole, yet still print incredibly pushed and powerful cards. I can totally understand the statement that the game has turned into battleship magic due to how much of the power now is getting focused at mana costs that are just really difficult to reach. What made the game interesting in the past was the amount of interaction one had at all stages of the game, with the ability to jump into stronger plays while potentially over extending into someone elses removal. They've completely taken away the ability to over extend in that fashion by killing the ability to quickly ramp into those bigger plays and also removed a lot of the good answers in the process. At this point I'm just glad back in EMN I was able to get at least some draw go gameplay out of UW spirits.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Perhaps its the poor communction via text. My point was that while things like that have indeed happened in the past they are often far apart, publicly acknowledged by the company as a "we done goofed" Typically such a thing happens from a VERY powerful format breaking block. Having this many bans when a format isn't creating its own acrtype in legacy and format staples in vintage is unheard of. My thought was people are more shocked this could happen with a set that has so little to inpact eternal formats. Your right it has happened before but never from a block that was so weak.
Oh no, I'm in complete agreement that it's amusing that these cards that see virtually no play in Modern (let alone Legacy) are seeing bans in Standard, whereas before all cards banned in Standard were real players in the larger formats (except maybe Fluctuator, did that see play in Extended or Legacy back then?). The best finish for Energy in Modern I can find is a top 8 finish at a PPTQ, and the non-Energy cards that were banned in this announcement don't see any play. At least Emrakul/Copter/Reflector Mage see some play in Modern, even if it's not much. All the new cards banned are basically irrelevant in the larger formats. How sad it is that a Lay of the Land effect got banned?
Annoying thing is I liked Energy as a concept and would've liked to see it return so maybe it could be a real deck in Modern, but it's unlikely to come back after this, even though it would've been fine if they had just printed some real ways to interact with it, or (better yet) hadn't nerfed Standard so much that such relatively weak cards dominated the format.
Its that they did't print hate for it. Seth, Pure and simple they did not print the hate. Any of these cards would have make the environment different Think of it like Onslaught they printed stablizer (players can't cycle) or in OTJ we have had groundseal, I think that any of these would have helped alot.
2 Energy stablizers
artifact
Players can't gain energy
3 Energy burn
artifact
at begining of each upkeep all players lose 2 life for each energy they have.
0 grounder
artifact
Sacrifice grounder target players energy becomes 0.
Well, yeah in the grand scheme of things the standard bannings we have today are pretty depressing. I do think that cards like Smuggler's Copter, Reflector Mage, and Rampaging Ferocidon will at least see play in some capacity. We're not going to see much of anything else make the cut.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I don't think they've forgotten that Standard exists in its own vacuum (which is why Kamigawa, despite its linearity and low-power as a Standard Block, has great cards in older formats and even those that were banned weren't when they were in Standard - I know Jitte probably came close) - if they somehow forget it, then yeah, the death spiral has already started.
I suspect the real issue here is their reaction to power creep - everybody keeps saying creatures are getting better, but actually they're not - which is why very few creatures themselves make it to older formats (that isn't named EDH, and even nowadays myself as a mainly EDH player feel a lot don't make the cut anymore). I'm not sure where the exact point started, but if we take the Titan cycle (a fan-favorite for creature power-creep) as the point and compare in the correct vacuum, few creatures ever approach those power levels again (Thragtusk is worse than them generally and Siege Rhino is generally worse than Thragtusk, it just ended up the correct Standard Vacuum environment for itself).
Well, as everybody pointed out here, removal got worse, which is right. But some people try to contrast it using rising Creature-Power-Levels, when the reality is removal outright got vanquished to near-oblivion (in playability-balance, not existence) in comparison to the reduction creatures got. Here is why I think it's WotC's reaction to power-creep... at some point the creature-power-creep overpowered reasonable removal (not the best example but Titans needed two Bolts to take down when they were in the same Standard) and they saw sales go up but they wanted to replicate that kind of financial success without resorting to endless power-creep (ala YGO), so they powered-down creatures and aggressively powered-down answers to see if they could adapt the entire process over and over again.
In a way they succeeded. Sad to say they pushed pretty much everything so far down (with removal being the worst), Standard is now effectively in its own bubble of "power-creep", except that the ceiling of that is still lower than that when it was actually at its peak (Titans as my appointed example), so we end up with a lot of silly-looking bans from the view of other formats. Primeval Titan got itself banned in EDH, how many other Titans do you see in comparison to Gearhulks in EDH still?
Well, as everybody pointed out here, removal got worse, which is right. But some people try to contrast it using rising Creature-Power-Levels, when the reality is removal outright got vanquished to near-oblivion (in playability-balance, not existence) in comparison to the reduction creatures got. Here is why I think it's WotC's reaction to power-creep... at some point the creature-power-creep overpowered reasonable removal (not the best example but Titans needed two Bolts to take down when they were in the same Standard) and they saw sales go up but they wanted to replicate that kind of financial success without resorting to endless power-creep (ala YGO), so they powered-down creatures and aggressively powered-down answers to see if they could adapt the entire process over and over again.
In a way they succeeded. Sad to say they pushed pretty much everything so far down (with removal being the worst), Standard is now effectively in its own bubble of "power-creep"
Snipped to save space.
I agree for the most part with what you're saying.
I'd add the nuance that mechanics are what's pushing individual creatures in the bubble over the top. Liontusk cub is a bear. With Energy it's a win condition. Same with all the other little creeps that fit into the energy mold. I'd go so far to say that Siege Rhino while strong wasn't broken but the recursion available at the time made it broken. Thragtusk was an error in casting cost for sure but recursion also made it broken. 3GG would have been better. Still bomb level but the first cast making splashing much harder with 4WWW or whatever other decks it was in needed for combo. Hell maybe even 2GGG! Splash that!
Peeling back lots of things that made mtg balanced so they could make it MTG the Creaturing was their plan and right now we're all paying for that short-sighted decision. They need to understand (and I'm not sure they do) that their whole premise is flawed and needs to be repealed completely.
This isn't a case of 'we just did it too much', it's a case of the wrong path taken and the whole party died.
The fact is that power is a relative thing. It's often not that a specific creature is more powerful than it should be, but that the environment around it makes the card less useful.
Green in general is a victim of this in modern because efficient removal in black, red, and even white take away the advantages above curve power and toughness creatures have.
In standard they did changes to try and make the games more fun to watch, basically.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Green in general is a victim of this in modern because efficient removal in black, red, and even white take away the advantages above curve power and toughness creatures have.
This is true. I really wish Path to Exile did not exist in Modern. Fatal Push is okay, as black is after all the color that is supposed the have the best removal. Bolt, while very good, isn't very good against green creatures (goyf, mandrills etc.).
The problem of the current Standard also isn't the fact that removal is bad, since Energy plays a LOT of Cards with ETB effects. Removal doesn't help you against these kinds of cards since the "damage" is already done when they resolve. What would help are Counterspells, but playable versions of those aren't allowed to exist any more.
Well, as everybody pointed out here, removal got worse, which is right. But some people try to contrast it using rising Creature-Power-Levels, when the reality is removal outright got vanquished to near-oblivion (in playability-balance, not existence) in comparison to the reduction creatures got. Here is why I think it's WotC's reaction to power-creep... at some point the creature-power-creep overpowered reasonable removal (not the best example but Titans needed two Bolts to take down when they were in the same Standard) and they saw sales go up but they wanted to replicate that kind of financial success without resorting to endless power-creep (ala YGO), so they powered-down creatures and aggressively powered-down answers to see if they could adapt the entire process over and over again.
In a way they succeeded. Sad to say they pushed pretty much everything so far down (with removal being the worst), Standard is now effectively in its own bubble of "power-creep"
Snipped to save space.
I agree for the most part with what you're saying.
I'd add the nuance that mechanics are what's pushing individual creatures in the bubble over the top. Liontusk cub is a bear. With Energy it's a win condition. Same with all the other little creeps that fit into the energy mold. I'd go so far to say that Siege Rhino while strong wasn't broken but the recursion available at the time made it broken. Thragtusk was an error in casting cost for sure but recursion also made it broken. 3GG would have been better. Still bomb level but the first cast making splashing much harder with 4WWW or whatever other decks it was in needed for combo. Hell maybe even 2GGG! Splash that!
Peeling back lots of things that made mtg balanced so they could make it MTG the Creaturing was their plan and right now we're all paying for that short-sighted decision. They need to understand (and I'm not sure they do) that their whole premise is flawed and needs to be repealed completely.
This isn't a case of 'we just did it too much', it's a case of the wrong path taken and the whole party died.
Every year there is a card that pushes the boundaries in standard. One year it's Siege Rhino, the next it's Collected Company, etc. I don't really see a problem with that happening, though. No matter what there will always be a Siege Rhino or a Collected Company in standard because their has to be a card that defines the ceiling of power on a set. It's also why there always seems to be a card that represents the absolute worst in a set, sometimes even at rare. But the thing is designers should already know what the cards representing the top of the set are when they make the set and plan to put a counter in for those cards. What has happened in the past few years is the designers and developers got lazy and didn't do this. Better yet, when they did it was always an underpowered answer that hit way too late in the game to be effective. Sorcerous Spyglass and Solemnity are two of these cards and Blood Sun is now the third.
Let me say this: Why is Daze such a maligned card that is always too powerful for standard? Is it because that it's too good, or is it because the developers and designers are being told that it's too oppressive because people want their monsters to stay around? Or better yet, maybe marketing is telling them that they can't put it in the set because it's masters set material.
Standard is a game of lands and monsters. Modern is a game of lands and monsters with narrow answers to play against the field that will eventually mirror standard.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
If Modern mirrors standard I would be surprised.
There is 1cc discard, reasonable counters, attack and spell plus activated ability taxes, turn zero Leylines, and powerful hate cards hitting mana and graveyards etc. That makes the format very different to the boredom fest that is Standard. The current low power nature of Standard is likely to continue, and any upswing in power will be marginal. Combo will remain significant in Modern, and will be banned if they make a mistake in Std.
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People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
Standards problem is that the deck building paths are too narrow and the paths that are available are being made intentionally convoluted by the set designers, mostly out of fear of the sets being figured out too fast by the online community. Because of this they messed up in Kaladesh and made a mechanic too strong (energy) because it was so convoluted they couldn't even see the power of the set, and they had a similar problem with vehicles, albeit those were much simpler and more like a weird backflip mental gymnastics equipment thing. It's not about "how fast can the community figure out or break your set", it's about how well the set is actually designed and if people have enough paths of play to make it interesting.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I've been giving this some thought: For all the flak Kamigawa has gotten for being linear, we're currently on the same path, with Kaladesh being the most obvious example. Kamigawa got extra flak for being "weak" as well, but if anything this current period has proven, that its "weakness" was actually a boon in the long run. We talk about original Ravnica being one of the best blocks, but would it have been as good if Kaladesh preceded it instead of Kamigawa?
Kamigawa was unfortunate in the sense that it had a third factor mixed in - its flavor was alienating to a sizable portion of the player base. If we take that factor out, Kamigawa is actually a perfect example of how a block should be done if you want to simultaneously power Standard down and test out a linear mechanic. Such blocks will always be received (and likely sell) badly, but its a necessary price to pay to balance out Standard in the shortest possible perceived time. Note how Kamigawa-Ravnica was considered one of the best Standards to exist even up to today? (There's an argument that Ravnica-Time Spiral is better, but I actually can see how Time Spiral itself alienated a lot of new players, so I'll argue that it makes a better "Extended/Modern" than Standard and so Kami-Rav edges out it better by that margin)... and that Standard came almost immediately right after the biggest mistake that was Mirrodin (JTMS and Stoneforge were honestly not as bad in terms of scale honestly and revolved around way less cards and didn't even really trip until the following block (SOM) came in).
Even the most considerably broken card from the block then (Umezawa's Jitte) made it to the grand burial of rotation instead of banning because there were reasonable answers for it all around - Mirrodin obviously invited endless artifact-hate, Kamigawa itself had Kataki and Needle in what I still consider the worst 3rd set in Modern Magic and Ravnica had Shattering Spree to follow up. Sure, we were complaining about Jitte still then (and it was actually sort of justified, because it was that broken, and Modern can attest to that), but the main point was sufficient answers, even if not as efficient or "value", met the basic "efficiency" of removal being available was able to carry a card as broken as Jitte through its entire run in Standard. Jitte was saved both by decent numbers of decent removal (not necessarily optimal removal) and the nature of rotation.
My point is that sets designed to have linear strategies and have lower the overall power of Standard should instead focus its power around individual generic cards and design removal around those cards instead of putting that power into said linear strategies, because entire strategies are hard to balance from the get-go. If the power goes into individual strategic cards it's basically one (or two/three) card-ban(s) away from being another Kamigawa strategy in context, whereas if Jitte actually got banned, there wasn't actually an entire strategy that sunk with it (or at the very least it doesn't feel like that to the masses, since several strategies got crippled together). Also, synergy opens up another whole field of power and that means designing removal becomes an even more intricate task of balancing than it would have been for the likes of Jitte.
Modern will never mirror standard, unless Standard goes even further down the path of idiotically pushed creatures.
Modern already has answers, that Standard will never see again.
Bolt, Path's, 4 CMC Sweepers, and the Mana Base to Support them.
And if wizards designers would wake up, those cards could actually come back into standard. It's what everyone is hoping for with Return to Dominaria and if they don't it's going to represent the tipping point for MtG as a whole.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
And if wizards designers would wake up, those cards could actually come back into standard. It's what everyone is hoping for with Return to Dominaria and if they don't it's going to represent the tipping point for MtG as a whole.
Theres no way they reprint these cards, its simply completely against what their new design idea is.
But maybe some "fixed" versions or happy little accidents, like almost all the cards that matter in modern ...
I've been giving this some thought: For all the flak Kamigawa has gotten for being linear, we're currently on the same path, with Kaladesh being the most obvious example. Kamigawa got extra flak for being "weak" as well, but if anything this current period has proven, that its "weakness" was actually a boon in the long run. We talk about original Ravnica being one of the best blocks, but would it have been as good if Kaladesh preceded it instead of Kamigawa?
Likely to be honest it would be broken Creatures today are WAY WAY WAY different then creatures back then. (so were spells) the creature powercreep would have been so noticable it would have been crazy people would have thought it was Mirridon "creature edition"
Kamigawa was unfortunate in the sense that it had a third factor mixed in - its flavor was alienating to a sizable portion of the player base. If we take that factor out, Kamigawa is actually a perfect example of how a block should be done if you want to simultaneously power Standard down and test out a linear mechanic. Such blocks will always be received (and likely sell) badly, but its a necessary price to pay to balance out Standard in the shortest possible perceived time. Note how Kamigawa-Ravnica was considered one of the best Standards to exist even up to today? (There's an argument that Ravnica-Time Spiral is better, but I actually can see how Time Spiral itself alienated a lot of new players, so I'll argue that it makes a better "Extended/Modern" than Standard and so Kami-Rav edges out it better by that margin)... and that Standard came almost immediately right after the biggest mistake that was Mirrodin (JTMS and Stoneforge were honestly not as bad in terms of scale honestly and revolved around way less cards and didn't even really trip until the following block (SOM) came in).
Thats because Kami had a great amount of SUPPORT cards. not great power cards but good foundation cards to build on, lots of safty cards and afew good hate cards to make sure what ever came next had checks in place so the dev team COULD go alittle crazy, Ravnica push power levels in both spells (lighting helix say hello) and creature ( watchwolf you too!) they can do that when the answer/hate are present.
Even the most considerably broken card from the block then (Umezawa's Jitte) made it to the grand burial of rotation instead of banning because there were reasonable answers for it all around - Mirrodin obviously invited endless artifact-hate, Kamigawa itself had Kataki and Needle in what I still consider the worst 3rd set in Modern Magic and Ravnica had Shattering Spree to follow up. Sure, we were complaining about Jitte still then (and it was actually sort of justified, because it was that broken, and Modern can attest to that), but the main point was sufficient answers, even if not as efficient or "value", met the basic "efficiency" of removal being available was able to carry a card as broken as Jitte through its entire run in Standard. Jitte was saved both by decent numbers of decent removal (not necessarily optimal removal) and the nature of rotation.
I think it being in a precon was also a factor in the banning decision Wizards does not like making bannings that add "if you have the exact precon your ok" type bannings.
My point is that sets designed to have linear strategies and have lower the overall power of Standard should instead focus its power around individual generic cards and design removal around those cards instead of putting that power into said linear strategies, because entire strategies are hard to balance from the get-go. If the power goes into individual strategic cards it's basically one (or two/three) card-ban(s) away from being another Kamigawa strategy in context, whereas if Jitte actually got banned, there wasn't actually an entire strategy that sunk with it (or at the very least it doesn't feel like that to the masses, since several strategies got crippled together). Also, synergy opens up another whole field of power and that means designing removal becomes an even more intricate task of balancing than it would have been for the likes of Jitte.
Kami was my favorate set to draft ever. It is one of the most flavorful and balanced draft formats you could play (try it sometime if you can find the packs) It was profoundly balanced on a color/color axsis. Problem was Kami didn't spawn any standard decks, Mirridon and Ravnica did, they both just used Kami for the support bones to make their decks flow better.
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Are you just messing with me?
You are clearly saying the new Eldrazi didn't "crap all over Standard", but apparently making no assertion as to whether or not they ruined it? Obviously you are making a distinction...
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Thought-Knot was fine with restrictive casting cost.
Ulamog would have been fine if they didn't think cheating him in on turn 4 was 'all good'. Reality Smasher was strong but didn't take over anything, you just had to plan for it like any hasty creature.
I played all through that time period and Eldrazi didn't outshine or dominate. In fact just a few here and there popped up in decks to do work. Most of that set was chaff.
*NOTE - I am not talking about Modern in any way. Only Standard.
Kinda annoyed you would compare Urza's (beloved) insanity to this block... Urza had bans because games were consistently ending turn 2.... The joke of "early game is the coin toss, mid game is turn one" was a real thing. You are comparing the two most powerful blocks in the entirety of magics history to this garbage. Their is also the time to consider, the Urza/mirridon were considered and admitted to be mistakes on designs part, They admited that adding the -1 toughness on skull clamp was a last min thing they thought would weaken the card but did not test it, They are ment to try to learn from these errors and NOT make them again. None of these cards are memory jar, none of these cards are skullclamp. This many mistakes in this day and age without the awesome fun powerful causal appeal OF the block to back it is uncalled for and silly. Both of these sets were sets that pushed the power level of everything at the time to new heights and were products of experimentation.
... you want to see power? put ANY standard legal deck ignore bans, against one from that era also ignoring bans and we will see which "should be banned" (use a standard list not a "meta changed one" )
Watched it thanks. She mentions several possible interested parties that I figured as well. I still think Disney would be the highest bidder. They couldn't wait to slap Mickey Mouse ears on every pack sold for free advertising. Probably end up on the backs of the cards as well. The genre would fill a hole they have in their movie lineup as well. I think Hasbro would be foolish to sell, but if they do, look for Disney to make the move.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Annoying thing is I liked Energy as a concept and would've liked to see it return so maybe it could be a real deck in Modern, but it's unlikely to come back after this, even though it would've been fine if they had just printed some real ways to interact with it, or (better yet) hadn't nerfed Standard so much that such relatively weak cards dominated the format.
2 Energy stablizers
artifact
Players can't gain energy
3 Energy burn
artifact
at begining of each upkeep all players lose 2 life for each energy they have.
0 grounder
artifact
Sacrifice grounder target players energy becomes 0.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I suspect the real issue here is their reaction to power creep - everybody keeps saying creatures are getting better, but actually they're not - which is why very few creatures themselves make it to older formats (that isn't named EDH, and even nowadays myself as a mainly EDH player feel a lot don't make the cut anymore). I'm not sure where the exact point started, but if we take the Titan cycle (a fan-favorite for creature power-creep) as the point and compare in the correct vacuum, few creatures ever approach those power levels again (Thragtusk is worse than them generally and Siege Rhino is generally worse than Thragtusk, it just ended up the correct Standard Vacuum environment for itself).
Well, as everybody pointed out here, removal got worse, which is right. But some people try to contrast it using rising Creature-Power-Levels, when the reality is removal outright got vanquished to near-oblivion (in playability-balance, not existence) in comparison to the reduction creatures got. Here is why I think it's WotC's reaction to power-creep... at some point the creature-power-creep overpowered reasonable removal (not the best example but Titans needed two Bolts to take down when they were in the same Standard) and they saw sales go up but they wanted to replicate that kind of financial success without resorting to endless power-creep (ala YGO), so they powered-down creatures and aggressively powered-down answers to see if they could adapt the entire process over and over again.
In a way they succeeded. Sad to say they pushed pretty much everything so far down (with removal being the worst), Standard is now effectively in its own bubble of "power-creep", except that the ceiling of that is still lower than that when it was actually at its peak (Titans as my appointed example), so we end up with a lot of silly-looking bans from the view of other formats. Primeval Titan got itself banned in EDH, how many other Titans do you see in comparison to Gearhulks in EDH still?
Snipped to save space.
I agree for the most part with what you're saying.
I'd add the nuance that mechanics are what's pushing individual creatures in the bubble over the top. Liontusk cub is a bear. With Energy it's a win condition. Same with all the other little creeps that fit into the energy mold. I'd go so far to say that Siege Rhino while strong wasn't broken but the recursion available at the time made it broken.
Thragtusk was an error in casting cost for sure but recursion also made it broken. 3GG would have been better. Still bomb level but the first cast making splashing much harder with 4WWW or whatever other decks it was in needed for combo. Hell maybe even 2GGG! Splash that!
Peeling back lots of things that made mtg balanced so they could make it MTG the Creaturing was their plan and right now we're all paying for that short-sighted decision. They need to understand (and I'm not sure they do) that their whole premise is flawed and needs to be repealed completely.
This isn't a case of 'we just did it too much', it's a case of the wrong path taken and the whole party died.
Green in general is a victim of this in modern because efficient removal in black, red, and even white take away the advantages above curve power and toughness creatures have.
In standard they did changes to try and make the games more fun to watch, basically.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
This is true. I really wish Path to Exile did not exist in Modern. Fatal Push is okay, as black is after all the color that is supposed the have the best removal. Bolt, while very good, isn't very good against green creatures (goyf, mandrills etc.).
The problem of the current Standard also isn't the fact that removal is bad, since Energy plays a LOT of Cards with ETB effects. Removal doesn't help you against these kinds of cards since the "damage" is already done when they resolve. What would help are Counterspells, but playable versions of those aren't allowed to exist any more.
Every year there is a card that pushes the boundaries in standard. One year it's Siege Rhino, the next it's Collected Company, etc. I don't really see a problem with that happening, though. No matter what there will always be a Siege Rhino or a Collected Company in standard because their has to be a card that defines the ceiling of power on a set. It's also why there always seems to be a card that represents the absolute worst in a set, sometimes even at rare. But the thing is designers should already know what the cards representing the top of the set are when they make the set and plan to put a counter in for those cards. What has happened in the past few years is the designers and developers got lazy and didn't do this. Better yet, when they did it was always an underpowered answer that hit way too late in the game to be effective. Sorcerous Spyglass and Solemnity are two of these cards and Blood Sun is now the third.
Let me say this: Why is Daze such a maligned card that is always too powerful for standard? Is it because that it's too good, or is it because the developers and designers are being told that it's too oppressive because people want their monsters to stay around? Or better yet, maybe marketing is telling them that they can't put it in the set because it's masters set material.
Standard is a game of lands and monsters. Modern is a game of lands and monsters with narrow answers to play against the field that will eventually mirror standard.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
There is 1cc discard, reasonable counters, attack and spell plus activated ability taxes, turn zero Leylines, and powerful hate cards hitting mana and graveyards etc. That makes the format very different to the boredom fest that is Standard. The current low power nature of Standard is likely to continue, and any upswing in power will be marginal. Combo will remain significant in Modern, and will be banned if they make a mistake in Std.
Modern already has answers, that Standard will never see again.
Bolt, Path's, 4 CMC Sweepers, and the Mana Base to Support them.
Spirits
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Kamigawa was unfortunate in the sense that it had a third factor mixed in - its flavor was alienating to a sizable portion of the player base. If we take that factor out, Kamigawa is actually a perfect example of how a block should be done if you want to simultaneously power Standard down and test out a linear mechanic. Such blocks will always be received (and likely sell) badly, but its a necessary price to pay to balance out Standard in the shortest possible perceived time. Note how Kamigawa-Ravnica was considered one of the best Standards to exist even up to today? (There's an argument that Ravnica-Time Spiral is better, but I actually can see how Time Spiral itself alienated a lot of new players, so I'll argue that it makes a better "Extended/Modern" than Standard and so Kami-Rav edges out it better by that margin)... and that Standard came almost immediately right after the biggest mistake that was Mirrodin (JTMS and Stoneforge were honestly not as bad in terms of scale honestly and revolved around way less cards and didn't even really trip until the following block (SOM) came in).
Even the most considerably broken card from the block then (Umezawa's Jitte) made it to the grand burial of rotation instead of banning because there were reasonable answers for it all around - Mirrodin obviously invited endless artifact-hate, Kamigawa itself had Kataki and Needle in what I still consider the worst 3rd set in Modern Magic and Ravnica had Shattering Spree to follow up. Sure, we were complaining about Jitte still then (and it was actually sort of justified, because it was that broken, and Modern can attest to that), but the main point was sufficient answers, even if not as efficient or "value", met the basic "efficiency" of removal being available was able to carry a card as broken as Jitte through its entire run in Standard. Jitte was saved both by decent numbers of decent removal (not necessarily optimal removal) and the nature of rotation.
My point is that sets designed to have linear strategies and have lower the overall power of Standard should instead focus its power around individual generic cards and design removal around those cards instead of putting that power into said linear strategies, because entire strategies are hard to balance from the get-go. If the power goes into individual strategic cards it's basically one (or two/three) card-ban(s) away from being another Kamigawa strategy in context, whereas if Jitte actually got banned, there wasn't actually an entire strategy that sunk with it (or at the very least it doesn't feel like that to the masses, since several strategies got crippled together). Also, synergy opens up another whole field of power and that means designing removal becomes an even more intricate task of balancing than it would have been for the likes of Jitte.
And if wizards designers would wake up, those cards could actually come back into standard. It's what everyone is hoping for with Return to Dominaria and if they don't it's going to represent the tipping point for MtG as a whole.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Theres no way they reprint these cards, its simply completely against what their new design idea is.
But maybe some "fixed" versions or happy little accidents, like almost all the cards that matter in modern ...
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Kami was my favorate set to draft ever. It is one of the most flavorful and balanced draft formats you could play (try it sometime if you can find the packs) It was profoundly balanced on a color/color axsis. Problem was Kami didn't spawn any standard decks, Mirridon and Ravnica did, they both just used Kami for the support bones to make their decks flow better.