Section 3.9 (Shuffling): This change has to do with "pile shuffling." Pile shuffling alone is not a sufficiently random form of shuffling. Update states that a player may only pile shuffle once each time a deck is randomized. The one pile shuffle is allowed in order to count the number of cards in the deck.
Excellent! Great having a solid rules-basis for it.
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I've seen, both as a judge and as a player, players pile, riffle, riffle, pile, riffle, riffle, riffle, riffle, pile, riffle, present.
It's maddening. Getting it cut down to no more than one is helpful, and hopefully the emphasis on it being just for counting will remove the piles during a fetch (which also happens).
I personally dislike people like shuffling and mana weaving before like 9+ mash/riffle/overhands. If you pile to count then it's whatever, I'm very okay with that. If you like to mana weave and pile to tilt your opponent while you take 2+ minutes to randomize your deck afterwards I should be able to call a judge. Clocks are a thing and I sometimes play decks that care about them. Good on them.
Sounds fine I guess. I watch my opponents' shuffles and would not allow them to present a deck that was either only pile shuffled, or was not sufficiently riffled/mashed after a pile shuffle.
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No, this is not a first step towards a ban. Wizards and the DCI would have no interest in banning an activity that is actually positive and helpful. Ensuring you have the proper number of cards and that two (or more) sleeves are not sticking together improves the integrity of the game, it does not diminish it.
Counting is fine. Pile counting is slow and wastes time and deludes people into thinking it's a shuffle.
Also, considering there have been conclusions that moving portions of a deck (this was obviously done with regular cards, mind you) from one place to another reduces the number of shuffles to achieve sufficient randomization, it might just be that something like 2 rifles, pile, 4 rifles might just be better than just 7 riffles outright. There have never been studies on this, but there probably should.
Pile "shuffles" do not change randomization of a deck. Your statement is incorrect (if it led to fewer riffle shuffles, pile "shuffling" would increase entropy in the deck, which it demonstrably doesn't).
I've never seen anyone pile more than once personally, but I worry that this wording opens the door for people to pile shuffle after cracking a fetch, because based on this you can do it once per randomization. Now, IMO that would lead to a slow play call but who knows. I pile personally before each game, but always mash shuffle after. I know piling does basically nothing for randomization but it makes me feel better for some reason.
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Standard: GR Pummeler
Modern: Mono-Red Control, Lantern Control, Eldrazi Taxes, Skred Infect
Pauper: Affinity
EDH: Gaddock Teeg Kithkin Tribal, Meren
Legacy: 8 Rack, Omnitell (Both in progress)
Pile "shuffles" do not change randomization of a deck. Your statement is incorrect (if it led to fewer riffle shuffles, pile "shuffling" would increase entropy in the deck, which it demonstrably doesn't).
Did you read what I said? No? Then maybe you should. If not, then do not bother replying. Thanks.
I did read what you said, hence my reply.
If we know that the fact that we perform imperfect shuffles adds to the randomization, or better the assurance that the end result is unrelated to the initial state, and imperfect shuffles are nothing but riffles with shifts, then how can you, without a decent study, state that a pile, which IS A SHIFT does not do the same? Please explain. Thanks.
a) What guarantee do I have that you are piling to induce a shift?
b) Piling does not introduce randomness. That's a fact. If the order of cards before piling is known, the order after it is known as well.
Players should get the information about number of cards in opps decks at start of match, and thats it.
Except you're explicitly allowed to know the number of cards in your opponent's deck at any time during a game.
Quote from MTR »
Derived information is information to which all players are entitled access, but opponents are not obliged to assist
in determining and may require some skill or calculation to determine. Derived information consists of:
- The number of any kind of objects present in any game zone.
The number of cards in your library is the number of objects in a game zone.
I've never seen anyone pile more than once personally, but I worry that this wording opens the door for people to pile shuffle after cracking a fetch, because based on this you can do it once per randomization. Now, IMO that would lead to a slow play call but who knows. I pile personally before each game, but always mash shuffle after. I know piling does basically nothing for randomization but it makes me feel better for some reason.
Nevere? You must not play or watch much magic. It's a common occurrence and even at GPs and Pro Tours on camera the judges fail to stop triple pile shuffling even when time is running down.
I've never seen anyone pile more than once personally, but I worry that this wording opens the door for people to pile shuffle after cracking a fetch, because based on this you can do it once per randomization. Now, IMO that would lead to a slow play call but who knows. I pile personally before each game, but always mash shuffle after. I know piling does basically nothing for randomization but it makes me feel better for some reason.
Nevere? You must not play or watch much magic. It's a common occurrence and even at GPs and Pro Tours on camera the judges fail to stop triple pile shuffling even when time is running down.
Actually, I play twice a week, modern FNM and Modern Mondays at a local shop, and watch all the SCG stuff I can except standard. I haven't noticed it.
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Standard: GR Pummeler
Modern: Mono-Red Control, Lantern Control, Eldrazi Taxes, Skred Infect
Pauper: Affinity
EDH: Gaddock Teeg Kithkin Tribal, Meren
Legacy: 8 Rack, Omnitell (Both in progress)
PIle shuffling should not be banned, but yeah, it is not actually shuffling, therefore it should be preceded or followed by other shuffling method. I use it once I get too many or not enough lands in my draw, in order to make the land distribution more even, and that, I believe is a good stanting point for actual randomization of a deck - if by chance my lands cluster on the bottom or top of the deck then it's just luck.
Your thought process or at least the way you have described it here would fall under mana weaving and has a serious penalty. You are NOT allowed supposed to be seperating lands and spells to create distributions. That is a form of cheating and if you say "Well then I shuffle until it's random" then that means you were slow playing when you "weaved" your lands and spells out. Both are penalties. This is why the rule needed to be spelled out and needs to be enforced. There are MANY, MANY players trying to do things they aren't allowed to do.
Your thought process or at least the way you have described it here would fall under mana weaving and has a serious penalty. You are NOT allowed supposed to be seperating lands and spells to create distributions. That is a form of cheating and if you say "Well then I shuffle until it's random" then that means you were slow playing when you "weaved" your lands and spells out. Both are penalties. This is why the rule needed to be spelled out and needs to be enforced. There are MANY, MANY players trying to do things they aren't allowed to do.
I admit to not having heard the term before. However, after reading about it here. There is a major difference in what I am doing. I am not segregating the deck in any way prior to the division of the deck into piles. Whenever I notice the problem with mana I take the deck as it is without looking at the faces of cards, pile shuffle and then use other methods (usually 6 of 7 shuffles as I read it is enough to randomize a deck). So while I change the initial state of the deck, I do not purposefully create any specific arrangement.
It's all about making the deck random and presenting to the opponent in a reasonable time so that 3 games can be completed. Just keep that in mind.
Your thought process or at least the way you have described it here would fall under mana weaving and has a serious penalty. You are NOT allowed supposed to be seperating lands and spells to create distributions. That is a form of cheating and if you say "Well then I shuffle until it's random" then that means you were slow playing when you "weaved" your lands and spells out. Both are penalties. This is why the rule needed to be spelled out and needs to be enforced. There are MANY, MANY players trying to do things they aren't allowed to do.
I admit to not having heard the term before. However, after reading about it here. There is a major difference in what I am doing. I am not segregating the deck in any way prior to the division of the deck into piles. Whenever I notice the problem with mana I take the deck as it is without looking at the faces of cards, pile shuffle and then use other methods (usually 6 of 7 shuffles as I read it is enough to randomize a deck). So while I change the initial state of the deck, I do not purposefully create any specific arrangement.
So you're taking a deck that you have no knowledge of where cards are, reordering it, and then shuffling.
So your reordering process is useless.
That's the problem with people calling this "shuffling". It isn't random at all, so either you're doing it to influence what you're going to draw (cheating) or you're doing with the knowledge that it does nothing, it just makes you feel better. Wasting my time to make yourself feel better shouldn't be a good thing.
The idea that piling is shuffling is a lie. Note that I don't even say 'pile shuffling' as it is not, especially to someone with cheating intent. I'd say it's almost the smoking of MTG/a bad habit many people pick up but cannot put down. I stopped doing it, but still see it at every tournament I go to and just want to scream at my opponent to stop wasting time as all you need is a solid 9 riffles/mashes/whatever, just not piling. If anyone ever piled after shuffling during a game though you can bet your ass I would call them out on it.
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The idea that piling is shuffling is a lie. Note that I don't even say 'pile shuffling' as it is not, especially to someone with cheating intent. I'd say it's almost the smoking of MTG/a bad habit many people pick up but cannot put down. I stopped doing it, but still see it at every tournament I go to and just want to scream at my opponent to stop wasting time as all you need is a solid 9 riffles/mashes/whatever, just not piling. If anyone ever piled after shuffling during a game though you can bet your ass I would call them out on it.
What happens to the piles after they're made? Do you just leave them there? The shuffling comes from how you reassemble the piles.
The idea that piling is shuffling is a lie. Note that I don't even say 'pile shuffling' as it is not, especially to someone with cheating intent. I'd say it's almost the smoking of MTG/a bad habit many people pick up but cannot put down. I stopped doing it, but still see it at every tournament I go to and just want to scream at my opponent to stop wasting time as all you need is a solid 9 riffles/mashes/whatever, just not piling. If anyone ever piled after shuffling during a game though you can bet your ass I would call them out on it.
What happens to the piles after they're made? Do you just leave them there? The shuffling comes from how you reassemble the piles.
Or stacking your deck comes from how you reassemble the piles. It can work either way if you know what you're doing.
The idea that piling is shuffling is a lie. Note that I don't even say 'pile shuffling' as it is not, especially to someone with cheating intent. I'd say it's almost the smoking of MTG/a bad habit many people pick up but cannot put down. I stopped doing it, but still see it at every tournament I go to and just want to scream at my opponent to stop wasting time as all you need is a solid 9 riffles/mashes/whatever, just not piling. If anyone ever piled after shuffling during a game though you can bet your ass I would call them out on it.
What happens to the piles after they're made? Do you just leave them there? The shuffling comes from how you reassemble the piles.
Or stacking your deck comes from how you reassemble the piles. It can work either way if you know what you're doing.
This doesn't apply to any shuffling technique because
What if your first count was off, and you want to count again? can you not use pile shuffling to re-count?
I honestly don't really understand why people are using piling as a means to count the cards to begin with. Why not just hold the dek in one hand and slide the cards over to the other hand one at a time. It doesn't really work as well with large decks but then it is as easy as counting half a deck at a time.
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This doesn't apply to any shuffling technique because
Yeah, we shouldn't attempt to randomize at all...
It doesn't apply to actual shuffling techniques because while it's possible to stack a deck it's significantly harder. If I'm piling it's trivial to make the deck end up close to how I want it. If I'm riffling/mashing it's significantly harder.
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http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/magic-tournament-rules-release-notes-2016-09-26
I didn't see anyone else talking about this, but it makes me unreasonably happy.
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It's maddening. Getting it cut down to no more than one is helpful, and hopefully the emphasis on it being just for counting will remove the piles during a fetch (which also happens).
Sounds fine I guess. I watch my opponents' shuffles and would not allow them to present a deck that was either only pile shuffled, or was not sufficiently riffled/mashed after a pile shuffle.
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Unfortunately, that gets hostile looks.
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Counting is fine. Pile counting is slow and wastes time and deludes people into thinking it's a shuffle.
Pile "shuffles" do not change randomization of a deck. Your statement is incorrect (if it led to fewer riffle shuffles, pile "shuffling" would increase entropy in the deck, which it demonstrably doesn't).
Modern: Mono-Red Control, Lantern Control, Eldrazi Taxes, Skred Infect
Pauper: Affinity
EDH: Gaddock Teeg Kithkin Tribal, Meren
Legacy: 8 Rack, Omnitell (Both in progress)
Yes, counting into piles of 10 is faster than just plain counting.
That is not the same as pile "shuffling". Pile "shuffling" is not faster.
I did read what you said, hence my reply.
a) What guarantee do I have that you are piling to induce a shift?
b) Piling does not introduce randomness. That's a fact. If the order of cards before piling is known, the order after it is known as well.
Except you're explicitly allowed to know the number of cards in your opponent's deck at any time during a game.
The number of cards in your library is the number of objects in a game zone.
Nevere? You must not play or watch much magic. It's a common occurrence and even at GPs and Pro Tours on camera the judges fail to stop triple pile shuffling even when time is running down.
Actually, I play twice a week, modern FNM and Modern Mondays at a local shop, and watch all the SCG stuff I can except standard. I haven't noticed it.
Modern: Mono-Red Control, Lantern Control, Eldrazi Taxes, Skred Infect
Pauper: Affinity
EDH: Gaddock Teeg Kithkin Tribal, Meren
Legacy: 8 Rack, Omnitell (Both in progress)
Your thought process or at least the way you have described it here would fall under mana weaving and has a serious penalty. You are NOT allowed supposed to be seperating lands and spells to create distributions. That is a form of cheating and if you say "Well then I shuffle until it's random" then that means you were slow playing when you "weaved" your lands and spells out. Both are penalties. This is why the rule needed to be spelled out and needs to be enforced. There are MANY, MANY players trying to do things they aren't allowed to do.
It's all about making the deck random and presenting to the opponent in a reasonable time so that 3 games can be completed. Just keep that in mind.
So you're taking a deck that you have no knowledge of where cards are, reordering it, and then shuffling.
So your reordering process is useless.
That's the problem with people calling this "shuffling". It isn't random at all, so either you're doing it to influence what you're going to draw (cheating) or you're doing with the knowledge that it does nothing, it just makes you feel better. Wasting my time to make yourself feel better shouldn't be a good thing.
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What happens to the piles after they're made? Do you just leave them there? The shuffling comes from how you reassemble the piles.
Or stacking your deck comes from how you reassemble the piles. It can work either way if you know what you're doing.
This doesn't apply to any shuffling technique because
I honestly don't really understand why people are using piling as a means to count the cards to begin with. Why not just hold the dek in one hand and slide the cards over to the other hand one at a time. It doesn't really work as well with large decks but then it is as easy as counting half a deck at a time.
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Yeah, we shouldn't attempt to randomize at all...
It doesn't apply to actual shuffling techniques because while it's possible to stack a deck it's significantly harder. If I'm piling it's trivial to make the deck end up close to how I want it. If I'm riffling/mashing it's significantly harder.