I think that "earned" byes (i.e. those that occur for any reason other than an odd number of participants) are stupid. The point of this thread is not to discuss the logic or validity of that opinion, but how to live with it.
I want to determine which mid to high (i.e. above LGS level) tournaments do not use byes. From there, I can determine if I have an interest in taking my game to the next level or if I just want to stay casual-only, knowing that the latter means that there's probably an expiration date on my interest. Please let me know what does and doesn't have byes.
My understanding so far:
Byes:
GP main events
SCG main events
WMCQs
No byes:
Team GPs
GP and SCG side events
PTs
MTGO
PTQs
Dunno:
Any other events I'm not aware of
Please let me know if there are any events I am incorrect about or if I am missing anything. Thanks in advance for your help in populating my list.
Edited to update list. Thanks to motley and mister for their assistance
Yes, I do not understand why considering them stupid. They are awarded for winning GP trials, for example, or by planeswalker points, which is not that easy... I have participated to 3 Grand Prixs this year, with one Day 2 (went 10-5), one 6-3 (before the Day 2 qualification change) and another worse result but not completely bad, I've played PPTQs and GPTs almost every weekend (several times top8-ing, top4-ing or getting to the final), and often both on saturday and sunday, played lot of FNMS, and still I've missed the 2nd guaranteed bye for next season (although for only 48 planeswalker points T_T)... the point is, from my experience, you have to play a lot, and play relatively well, to get the byes (either winning GPTs or getting A LOT of planeswalker points), so I think that it is a good way for awarding good Magic the Gathering players, I don't find them stupid at all...
They're a bit strange. Yes, they're earned by playing well, and because they aren't easy to get, there's no actual problem with them as rewards...
Except...
When you do very well at a pro-level tournament, your reward is an increased chance to do well at the next one? That's some strange logic. In pro sports, that would be like the ultimate winner (Super Bowl, Stanley Cup, World Series) several free wins going into the next season, giving them a lead on everyone who did NOT win last year. It seems unfair to just give free wins to someone who has not earned them in that tournament, based on a completely different tournament somewhere else a few weeks ago. Of course, people get free wins all the time due to variance. I'd just assume that most of the time, better players get byes, but luck always has a chance of changing that. Just part of the game, and not one that's really worth worrying too much about.
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Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
Yes, I do not understand why considering them stupid. They are awarded for winning GP trials, for example, or by planeswalker points, which is not that easy... I have participated to 3 Grand Prixs this year, with one Day 2 (went 10-5), one 6-3 (before the Day 2 qualification change) and another worse result but not completely bad, I've played PPTQs and GPTs almost every weekend (several times top8-ing, top4-ing or getting to the final), and often both on saturday and sunday, played lot of FNMS, and still I've missed the 2nd guaranteed bye for next season (although for only 48 planeswalker points T_T)... the point is, from my experience, you have to play a lot, and play relatively well, to get the byes (either winning GPTs or getting A LOT of planeswalker points), so I think that it is a good way for awarding good Magic the Gathering players, I don't find them stupid at all...
They're a bit strange. Yes, they're earned by playing well, and because they aren't easy to get, there's no actual problem with them as rewards...
Except...
When you do very well at a pro-level tournament, your reward is an increased chance to do well at the next one? That's some strange logic. In pro sports, that would be like the ultimate winner (Super Bowl, Stanley Cup, World Series) several free wins going into the next season, giving them a lead on everyone who did NOT win last year. It seems unfair to just give free wins to someone who has not earned them in that tournament, based on a completely different tournament somewhere else a few weeks ago. Of course, people get free wins all the time due to variance. I'd just assume that most of the time, better players get byes, but luck always has a chance of changing that. Just part of the game, and not one that's really worth worrying too much about.
Most sports have some sort of perks or byes for playing well over time. NFL gives byes in the playoffs. Almost all sports give some sort of "home field advantage" for playing well. Some sports even match players who perform well against weaker opponents...actually almost all sports do this. NBA, MLB, NFL, NHL, Tennis, etc.
A better question is are there many high level sports that don't give competitive perks to top performers?
Between earned byes and intentional draws, Wizards wants the best way to win a pro Magic event to be playing as little Magic as possible. How'd you get to the top 8? Two byes, a lucky match and an intentional draw. Skill to look up to. I exaggerate, but that's the impression given more often than not.
The existence of byes would be a significant deterrent to me wanting to play in an event (it won't happen anyway so it's just a random person's 2 cents). For some players in a single event to have byes while other players do not, is not an environment I would want to compete in.
Sports byes are not a relevant comparison in my view, because no-one joins for the playoffs only which is unlike MtG where many players join only the tournament which sets the byes.
I agree that there should be some reward and incentive for high profile players, since they generate more interest in an event (which means more money for WotC) and it could certainly be said that they earned it, and I think that cash rewards and incentives would be the way I would want to see that handled. Not by reducing further the chances of those who do not get a bye.
Hi, OP here. I got the answers I wanted upthread, and this topic keeps getting discussed, so I thought I'd explain my earlier statement.
My biggest issue with byes is structural advantage. At most GPs, between 30 and 70 percent of the people who get 39 points move on to the top 8. Adam is a pro with three byes and has to go 10-2, at which point he stands a pretty good chance of getting in. Bill, who has no byes, has virtually no chance of making top 8 due to the tiebreaker if he goes 13-2, so he pretty much has to go 14-1. So in what way is Bill incentivized to pay his entry fee? If I ran a heads-up poker tournament this way, no one other than the Adams would ever sign up; even the 2-bye players would laugh at me and my structure. But it's ok because it's Magic?
Count me in with the group that thinks byes within tourneys is ok (like if there were byes within the top 8 for the top 2 finishers or whatever) but not ok if you are actively punishing people for their inability to devote 40+ weekends per year to a single pursuit, especially one so heavy on travel. Keep that structure in place if you want, but don't be surprised if I never participate (hence me wanting to know which ones are which.)
Hi, OP here. I got the answers I wanted upthread, and this topic keeps getting discussed, so I thought I'd explain my earlier statement.
My biggest issue with byes is structural advantage. At most GPs, between 30 and 70 percent of the people who get 39 points move on to the top 8. Adam is a pro with three byes and has to go 10-2, at which point he stands a pretty good chance of getting in. Bill, who has no byes, has virtually no chance of making top 8 due to the tiebreaker if he goes 13-2, so he pretty much has to go 14-1. So in what way is Bill incentivized to pay his entry fee? If I ran a heads-up poker tournament this way, no one other than the Adams would ever sign up; even the 2-bye players would laugh at me and my structure. But it's ok because it's Magic?
Count me in with the group that thinks byes within tourneys is ok (like if there were byes within the top 8 for the top 2 finishers or whatever) but not ok if you are actively punishing people for their inability to devote 40+ weekends per year to a single pursuit, especially one so heavy on travel. Keep that structure in place if you want, but don't be surprised if I never participate (hence me wanting to know which ones are which.)
why do you say punish? Wizards reward people with skill and dedication. Isupport this feature, magic is already too much luck dependent
... So in what way is Bill incentivized to pay his entry fee? ...
In my view this is the most important question to WotC, and to those who are considering playing.
There is apparently a good answer to it, though, even though I may not agree with that answer for myself. Tourneys with byes (such as GPs) are apparently extremely popular and well-attended, and I think that it is a relatively very small number of people who do not like the bye policy enough not to attend. To that end, WotC is probably in their best interests keeping it as is.
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I want to determine which mid to high (i.e. above LGS level) tournaments do not use byes. From there, I can determine if I have an interest in taking my game to the next level or if I just want to stay casual-only, knowing that the latter means that there's probably an expiration date on my interest. Please let me know what does and doesn't have byes.
My understanding so far:
Byes:
GP main events
SCG main events
WMCQs
No byes:
Team GPs
GP and SCG side events
PTs
MTGO
PTQs
Dunno:
Any other events I'm not aware of
Please let me know if there are any events I am incorrect about or if I am missing anything. Thanks in advance for your help in populating my list.
Edited to update list. Thanks to motley and mister for their assistance
Where are you getting this data from?
I'm pretty sure the side events have no byes, because participation/attendance is a hit or miss.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
GP side events don't have byes because they're mostly just for fun or getting value.
GP byes are great because GPs can be long events, so a few rounds you can get off are great and they reduce the rounds you have to play
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
They're a bit strange. Yes, they're earned by playing well, and because they aren't easy to get, there's no actual problem with them as rewards...
Except...
When you do very well at a pro-level tournament, your reward is an increased chance to do well at the next one? That's some strange logic. In pro sports, that would be like the ultimate winner (Super Bowl, Stanley Cup, World Series) several free wins going into the next season, giving them a lead on everyone who did NOT win last year. It seems unfair to just give free wins to someone who has not earned them in that tournament, based on a completely different tournament somewhere else a few weeks ago. Of course, people get free wins all the time due to variance. I'd just assume that most of the time, better players get byes, but luck always has a chance of changing that. Just part of the game, and not one that's really worth worrying too much about.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
Most sports have some sort of perks or byes for playing well over time. NFL gives byes in the playoffs. Almost all sports give some sort of "home field advantage" for playing well. Some sports even match players who perform well against weaker opponents...actually almost all sports do this. NBA, MLB, NFL, NHL, Tennis, etc.
A better question is are there many high level sports that don't give competitive perks to top performers?
Sports byes are not a relevant comparison in my view, because no-one joins for the playoffs only which is unlike MtG where many players join only the tournament which sets the byes.
I agree that there should be some reward and incentive for high profile players, since they generate more interest in an event (which means more money for WotC) and it could certainly be said that they earned it, and I think that cash rewards and incentives would be the way I would want to see that handled. Not by reducing further the chances of those who do not get a bye.
My biggest issue with byes is structural advantage. At most GPs, between 30 and 70 percent of the people who get 39 points move on to the top 8. Adam is a pro with three byes and has to go 10-2, at which point he stands a pretty good chance of getting in. Bill, who has no byes, has virtually no chance of making top 8 due to the tiebreaker if he goes 13-2, so he pretty much has to go 14-1. So in what way is Bill incentivized to pay his entry fee? If I ran a heads-up poker tournament this way, no one other than the Adams would ever sign up; even the 2-bye players would laugh at me and my structure. But it's ok because it's Magic?
Count me in with the group that thinks byes within tourneys is ok (like if there were byes within the top 8 for the top 2 finishers or whatever) but not ok if you are actively punishing people for their inability to devote 40+ weekends per year to a single pursuit, especially one so heavy on travel. Keep that structure in place if you want, but don't be surprised if I never participate (hence me wanting to know which ones are which.)
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
In my view this is the most important question to WotC, and to those who are considering playing.
There is apparently a good answer to it, though, even though I may not agree with that answer for myself. Tourneys with byes (such as GPs) are apparently extremely popular and well-attended, and I think that it is a relatively very small number of people who do not like the bye policy enough not to attend. To that end, WotC is probably in their best interests keeping it as is.