Quote from SadisticMystic »It is the case, but even if it wasn't, you could work around those semantics by virtue of the fact that you have multiple copies of Cinder Pyromancer and they all cost only a tap. So activate Alchemist, copy the ability, let the copy resolve, tap a Pyromancer without using Rings, let the original ability resolve, and tap another Pyromancer without using Rings. Still 2 life.
Quote from tstorm823 »
Yeah, I had that "dudoi, [facepalm]" moment while driving to family things. "Just target two different pyromancers, dummy." That can be fixed though. I haven't had too much chance to think of the best solution to that problem. I was thinking of finding a way to switch Rings to Kurkesh and make only what I want artifacts, but the easiest way is to jump into my as of yet unused lands category. Quick search of lands that hurt me, I've got tapping a Cabal Pit which is a mana ability so it can't be copied with Rings of Brighthearth, then stick a Ghostly Flicker in Eye of the Storm to untap the shrine each cycle. And then the only way to gain the second life is to copy the Alchemist ability, activate the Shrine, prevent the damage with the ability copy, then cast a spell to get a Ghostly Flicker before the original Alchemist ability resolves so that it can choose the Shrine after it reenters, but to cast a spell from hand again requires another 1 life paid to draw the card, so I end up not gaining an extra life anyway, and can only do that net free cast of Hinder while I have recurring Sphinx to cycle...
Even if that doesn't work, I'm very confident there is a solution that makes it so that no matter what I do, that Alchemist can only prevent 1 damage to me without paying a life to get there at all. So the real question is, does the rest of that thing I made seem to work out correctly? And if so, did I correctly assess the numbers?
Quote from Deedlit11 »
This may still be okay under your interpretation of the prevent damage rules, since then you would need to respond to each Alchemist's ability copy with a tapping of Cabal Pit, and all the Possibility Storm triggers go on the stack at the same time as the original Cascade trigger. But under SadisticMystic's interpretation, we can tap Cabal Pit any time after resolving the Alchemist ability, so this certainly goes infinite.
After some searching, the following thread supports SadisticMystic's position: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/magic-rulings-archives/279434-preventing-the-next-1-damage. The argument is that if you prevent the damage, than it's like it never happened. I can still see the argument that "the next time you would take damage" has still happened, but I'm willing to go along with what several people have said.
Quote from SadisticMystic »snip
Hmm, that would be true of Cascade only triggered from your hand, but I see no such proviso. So, when you cast Enigma Sphinx, you get a gazillion triggers of Possibility Storm, each of which casts Enighma Sphinx and triggers Cascade, which allows Hinder to be cast and therefore Ghostly Flicker, recycling Cabal Pit.
Quote from tstorm823 »
So we still need to cut off the ability of Cho-Arrim Alchemist to double. So we replace Rings of Brighthearth with Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient and we add a single copy of Silverskin Armor. We can only equip at sorcery speed, so we can only loop if it involves copying the ability of only one creature that isn't natively an artifact. If we equip the Alchemist, we can prevent 2 damage, gain 2 life, and then have to pay 2 life to draw the cards back anyway so that we don't even get the intended stacked layers. If we equip Yawgmoth's Bargain, we can only ever prevent one damage with Cho-Arrim Alchemist, so the combo works as intended. If we equip Harabaz Druid, we go really obviously infinite with Voltaic Construct, so we're going to have to cut Voltaic Construct. We lose 3 layers off the total with that exchange, but it's certainly acceptable loss to preserve the other 40 million billion.
Side note, with this change, if it becomes less interference with future goals, the Cabal Pit can be replaced with Mortarpod, as it would also be a 1 damage effect that Kurkesh can't copy (the equipped germ has the ability, not the equipment) that can be reset with a Ghostly flicker. I don't know how that might help, but it's good to stay sanitized from as many mechanics as possible in case they help later. My regret with this so far is that my idea was incompatible with Spirit Guide/Cowardice shenanigans, since the next step in the evolution of maximum finite damage seems to be finding multiple "Ackerman combos" that can be safely embedded within one another.
Quote from SadisticMystic »
Get Helix down, then spend the first 10 mana on buyback Seething Anger.
First Helix Twinflame gets four Precursor triggers, resulting in 12, then 48, then 192, then 768 copies of the spell. Total after this is 1024 P, 2048 V.
Quote from SadisticMystic »
So a single untap generates 2 arrows, a Precursor trigger on an untap spell generates 3 arrows, and the untap card itself is worth 4. Playing all the untap cards in succession, then, would take you to 4^^^^31. You don't have anything that creates layers on top of this, but Selvala's Charge can indeed be played 53 times at first, and each time is worth 30 untap spells again, for 4^^^^1590. After the Time Spirals and Time Reversals, though, the opponent's library only goes back to 59 cards (remember, they can dump a basic land off your Show and Tell), so on the second to ninth times through you only get 52 copies of Selvala's Charge. That's another 14,070 untap spells, for a final figure of 4^^^^15,660.
Quote from bakgat »If you can have it all your way I can think of 17 damage.
1x Black lotus 4x Vexing Devil 1x Mountain 1x Gut shot
Quote from Deedlit11 »
Okay, this looks like it works. You could also replace Yawgmoth's Bargain with Greed or Book of Rass, so that you have to pay two life to draw two cards. Then you can double up on Cho-Arrim Alchemist, since gaining two life is exactly what you want.
Quote from Deedlit11 »I believe I can add a third Ackermann stage to my deck, by using Skirge Familiar. With it you can discard a card to generate a black mana, so it can work just like the Spirit Guides, except that you don't need to use Mirror of Fate and Millikin to put it back in your graveyard. So first, we have to figure out what to use a black mana for. The only creature types that we can recycle with black mana that I am aware of are Treefolk and Zombies (other than Elves and Faeries, which we can't use if we want to use Elvish Sprit Guide higher up), and neither seems to recycle artifacts and enchantments. I can go with a color instead; it seems like White is the best option to cut off, which means we go with Possessed Nomad. Possessed Nomad requires seven cards in the graveyard to target white creatures; we can put for example Ezuri, Renegade Leader, Ghosthelm Courier, Mercenary Informer, Leyline of Anticipation, Omniscience, Grip of Chaos, and Psychic Battle in the graveyard, and use their token copies in their place. We can use Hair-Strung Koto and Reito Lantern to move cards into and out of the graveyard as necessary. I was wondering if the combo can still work without Reito Lantern, but I don't see how at the moment so I'm leaving it in for now.
The transition to Elvish Spirit Guide is easy enough, Llanowar Dead is perfect. Reforming the rest of the deck and removing white, I get:
SadisticMystic's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
1 Devout Chaplain1 Skirge Familiar1 Possessed Nomad1 Llanowar Dead1 Elvish Spirit Guide1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader1 Zhur-Taa Druid1 Simian Spirit Guide1 Paragon of Fierce Defiance1 Snow-Covered Mountain1 Scrying Sheets1 Show and Tell1 Archaeomancer1 Ghosthelm Courier1 Tropical Island1 Everbark Shaman1 Boggart Loggers1 Goblin Burrows1 Tidal Warrior1 Seahunter1 Cateran Enforcer1 Cateran Slaver1 Cateran Overlord1 Mercenary Informer1 Dream Thrush1 Driver of the Dead1 Baron Sengir1 Willow Satyr1 King Crab1 Stronghold Assassin1 Noxious Dragon1 Shadowborn Demon1 Minion of Leshrac1 Devout Lightcaster1 Five-Alarm Fire1 Bloodbond March1 Mimic Vat1 Mirror of Fate1 Dual Nature1 Frontier Siege1 Guilty Conscience1 Rite of Passage1 Rings of Brighthearth1 Grip of Chaos1 Psychic Battle1 Cowardice1 Leyline of Anticipation1 Omniscience1 March of the Machines1 Nature's Revolt1 Opalescence1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion1 Elvish Pioneer1 Mana Reflection1 Mana Crypt1 Hair-Strung Koto1 Sleeper Agent1 Armament of Nyx1 Words of Wisdom1 Reito Lantern
This will deal more than 10 -> 10 -> 10 -> 10 -> 2 -> 279 damage, if my calculations are correct.
Quote from Vertain »Fixed Version:
SadisticMystic's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
Core1 Black Lotus1 Show and Tell1 Omniscience1 Enter the Infinite1 Precursor Golem1 Isochron Scepter2 Battle Hymn1 Grip of Chaos1 Psychic Battle1 Vedalken Orrery1 Memory Crystal1 Spellweaver Helix1 Twinflame2 Seething AngerEnchantments1 Opalescence1 Doubling Season1 Dual Nature4 Copy Enchantment4 Clever Impersonator1 Pyromancer AscensionBusiness Spells4 Jolt4 Infuse3 Word of Seizing1 CapsizeRecyclers1 Learn from the Past4 All Suns' Dawn4 Praetor's Counsel4 Ill-Gotten Gains4 Time Spiral4 Time Reversal
- 4 Twiddle
- 4 Burst of Energy
- 4 Dream's Grip
+ 4 Ill-Gotten Gains
+ 4 All Suns' Dawn
+ 4 Praetor's Counsel
Further Copies of Isochron Scepter are now doomed to starve.
Quote from Vertain »I just noticed my previous list has only 56 cards. That aside, this challenge is remarkably entertaining. My list has evolved another step:
Quote from SadisticMystic »
A few things:
Devout Lightcaster can't go into that as it stands. After we activate Possessed Nomad, it's possible to manipulate the graveyard size by various means to put it back under 7, and at that point Nomad reverts to a white creature so its ability can be bounced around to slap Devout Lightcaster. Amazingly, they haven't given us a good, clean innate black card to fit that shape, and it's not the kind of card they same likely to print in the future, so tough luck there. Phyrexian Bloodstock could possibly do something, except that's wasting a "low" step on a card slot that's better off high.
Likewise, Reito Lantern isn't safe either. Show and Tell is being counted on for the excess land drops, and that invites the goldfish to play their own lands. Then Frontier Siege lets us fight those to kill, and if Reito Lantern can put those cards back into the deck, Words of Wisdom ceases to be limited by anything. Canal Dredger (what, haven't you ever wanted to use THAT card?) might serve as a way to get around this, assuming the tap cost and required haste isn't too onerous at such a low level.
How does anything take advantage of Bloodbond March now? Cephalid Shrine seems to have disappeared, as have all other sources of counterspells.
Did you calculate Everbark Shaman with some lost layers now that it's the only treefolk in the deck? The physical card will have to go back to the graveyard for each activation, so it can't be standing pat on a single Mimic Vat copy while that runs down to do its thing.
Instead of linking Goblin Burrows-Tidal Warrior-Seahunter, we could use Moggcatcher for the transition by itself. That frees up Empress Galina to slot into the appropriate point, and the generic land step could go elsewhere--if nothing else, as a basic plains below Dream Thrush. Better yet, if we want to do that, something like Embodiment of Spring is better than Dream Thrush, since the land gets the Mimic Vat layers that way, more than offsetting the loss of the target-redirection layers. Or even Plains (with Vat)-Terminal Moraine (without Vat)-Dream Thrush.
And why is it still Mana Crypt, source of constant babysitting? The two Spirit Guides mean we have enough starting leeway to go with the more cooperative Thran Dynamo as the sole colorless mana generator.
Quote from Magicman657 »I didn't look at anything that you guys have done so far (I was curious to see what the best I could come up with was, even though it probably sucks in comparison), so here is my like ~60 minute attempt to do stupid amounts of non-infinite damage and hopefully I haven't overlooked anything. The plan is to make as many tokens as you can possibly make, then make them indestructible, then use a Chain Reaction to bounce ridiculously multiplied damage off of a Boros Reckoner and redirect it to your opponent.
user-14464886's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
1 Black Lotus1 Show and Tell1 Omniscience1 Enter the Infinite1 Boros Reckoner1 Boros Charm1 All Suns' Dawn1 Chain Reaction4 Praetor's Counsel4 Storm Herd4 Ajani, Caller of the Pride4 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes4 Dictate of the Twin Gods4 Furnace of Rath4 Doubling Season4 Parallel Lives4 Primal Vigor4 Day of the Dragons4 Hellion Eruption4 Deploy to the Front4 Mogg Infestation
1) Lotus -> Show and Tell -> Omniscience -> Enter the Infinite (put Boros Charm on top of your deck; when you cast the first Praetor's Counsel you can recast ETI and put Lotus back on top)
2) Play doubling enchantments (Dictate, Furnace, Doubling, Parallel, Primal)
3) Play Mentor of Heros, ultimate 4x (go to 420 life)
4) Play Storm Herd / Caller of the Pride to make tokens = to your life total
5) Play Day of the Dragons / Hellion Eruption / Boros Reckoner / Deploy to the Front / Mogg Infestation / Boros Charm (dealing 4 damage) (in that order)
6) Play Praetor's Counsel and repeat step 3-5 4x.
7) On the 4th iteration of step 6, don't play Reckoner in the same spot, do like so: Hellion Eruption, Deploy to the Front / Mogg Infestation, then Reckoner (in that order)
8) Play All Sun's Dawn, returning Deploy / Infestation
8) Play Boros Charm, making all permanents indestructible
9) Play Chain Reaction, redirecting all damage to your opponent
Quote from Deedlit11 »Nice first attempt. I calculate:
4) Each Storm Herd / Caller of the Pride adds 420 creature tokens, which gets doubled 12 times for 420 * 2^12 tokens. End result: 420 * 2^15 tokens.
5) Each spell in this step doubles the number of creatures 12 times, except for Mogg Infestation which doubles it 13 times. All told there are 196 doublings, for 420 * 2^211.
6) You don't recycle Day of the Dragons, but you recycle the other 12 cards, which makes 148 doublings per Praetor's Counsel. End result: 420 * 2^803.
8) Playing another Deply / Infestation adds 25 doublings for 420 * 2^828.
9) Boros Reckoner takes 420 * 2^828 damage, which gets doubled 8 times for 420 * 2^836, then the redirect gets doubled 8 times for 420 * 2^844. Final damage: About 420 * 2^846.
Quote from Daniel09DD »There is a problem with this combo. If you play a Boros Charm dealing 4 damage to the face, you will end up dealing 4^8 due to the 8 Furnace effects in play, which is enough to kill the opponent. However, I took the time to do the math, and theoretically, you can deal approximately 642891959654165*10^258 damage with that line of play. This is 6428919596541650000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 damage. Pretty sure it's enough to kill someone
Quote from SadisticMystic »Quote from Daniel09DD »There is a problem with this combo. If you play a Boros Charm dealing 4 damage to the face, you will end up dealing 4^8 due to the 8 Furnace effects in play, which is enough to kill the opponent. However, I took the time to do the math, and theoretically, you can deal approximately 642891959654165*10^258 damage with that line of play. This is 6428919596541650000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 damage. Pretty sure it's enough to kill someone
There is a bigger problem with that combo: After Boros Charm makes Reckoner indestructible, all you need is a single Furnace of Rath. Then Chain Reaction deals 1 damage (doubled to 2) to the Reckoner, which triggers and targets itself. Then it deals 2 damage (doubled to 4) to itself, targets itself again without any fear of dying to the quickly escalating damage, and that does not end well. For anyone.