MTG Salvation

There is Pain Seer and Tolarian Kraken and Harmonic Prodigy and Thought Reflection and Floating-Dream Zubera.

Now I organise the deck as

And question: When we have 1 life and Y red mana, and some hyperstage transitions on stack. How to recover life with them, and without net lose of red mana? What kind of "minimal abilities" should we build on stack, so that we can just resolve them down without using haste? (Because if we need haste, we need to use Worldfire to cycle Tyvar, losing life)

And ruling question: if Soul Foundry imprinted many cards with Gandalf the White, then how to activate Soul Foundry? We firstly choose an X at activation, but what will happen on resolve?

607.3. If, within a pair of linked abilities, one ability refers to a single object as “the exiled card,” “a card exiled with [this object],” or a similar phrase, and the other ability has exiled multiple cards (usually because it was copied), the ability refers to each of the exiled cards. If that ability asks for any information about the exiled card, such as a characteristic or mana value, it gets multiple answers. If these answers are used to determine the value of a variable, the sum of the answers is used. If that ability performs any actions on “the” card, it performs that action on each exiled card. If that ability creates a token that is a copy of “the” card, then for each exiled card, it creates a token that is a copy of that card. If that ability performs any actions on “a” card, the controller of the ability chooses which card is affected.

Okay, so X the sum of mana value of every card it imprinted. And the resolve create token for each imprint card.

From the hyperstage section in jfb1337's writeup (old version):

Transition creation:
Use some input resource to bounce nontoken martyr, as well optionally as a few other creatures
Play creatures, have them be countered by chancellor, create Bloodbond march triggers for each, and resolve one to get the creature back to play
Optional: May also play and activate a Twinning glass we previously bounced, leaving its activation on the stack. May also bounce and play creatures with an ETB ability like Chromescale drake to get those abilities on the stack.
Activate a martyr token (catalyst) to create many ashnod triggers (output resource) above all that on the stack

Transition use:
Use some of the last few ashnod triggers to bounce creatures:
Bounce and play Soul foundry to make a copy of those creatures (importantly including martyr; making a new martyr token - catayst replenished)
Bounce and replay the necassary utility creatures required to move the creatures from exile to the graveyard
Resolve the Bloodbond march triggers, returning the creatures to play

That's still pretty much how it works, just with Aven Augur instead of Martyr. Also no more Twinning Glass, instead Anikthea tokens created by Ratadrabik on Spite cast can bring back enchantments like Omniscience immediately. Haste is not needed since we prepared the necessary amount of colorless mana at the very top.


Pain Seer + Tolarian Kraken + Harmonic Prodigy are 3 cards for 2 layers. Not as efficient as we'd want, given that we lose World at War and Jolene, Plunder Queen for 1 layer each. It does shift layers around so we get more SSA casts during the start, so this might still be the best we can do.

Cryptic Pursuit would be a 1 layer card, but unfortunately it goes infinite: If we manifest and exile Artificial Evolution with it, then Kaervek's Spite doesn't remove our access to it for the computations, allowing us to interrupt them at arbitrary time.

Alternatives like Gale, Waterdeep Prodigy that only allow casting when the trigger resolves would be safe. But I didn't find any that add a layer: Gale targets the card it allows to cast so we can't make use of multiple triggers.

But still, Jolene, Plunder Queen/Drivnod, Carnage Dominus/Precursor Golem/Gandalf the White or any combination of them, only make 1 layer.
The point is that one copy trigger over Smoke Spirits' Aid means one batch of Smoke Blessing, meaning one batch of Treasure tokens (we cannot response after Spite clean our things, so just like one batch), meaning one batch of mana gain.

EDIT: I found something ruin everything. Goblin Boom Keg said: "At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice Goblin Boom Keg." which starts an illegal computation. So no, no extra upkeep steps, no Aven Augur.

No, the Jolene layer works with Gandalf:
1 TYS trigger creates some Smoke Blessings enchanting some artifact or legendary creatures. We kill those to get X "create a Treasure" triggers
1 "create a Treasure Trigger" resolves and, with a scaling amount of Jolenes arount to witness that it gives us X treasures. Thats one batch of mana.

The "create a Treasure" triggers are not tied to any object that is cleaned up by Worldfire, so the layer works. We don't have a problem responding since the killing can happen by legend rule. (Or toughness change of pre-damaged creatures in the case of Precursor golem, where we need to kill a scaling amount.)


Edit: Oh wow, that upkeep trigger of Goblin Boom Keg is horrible! Thanks for pointing that out. That just slipped through because it was irrelevant for so long...

Well, back to the drawing board.

Edit2: Looking back I think the last working deck was at around post 5120 with Cowardice + double Rector.

Lets try to replace Boom Keg before coming back to that:
Stuff like Magnetic Mine, that only damages players would work to start computations: it can deal damage to us while animated under the opponents control. Comeuppance reflects the damage and starts the Arcbond chaining. Magnetic Mine in particular doesn't work because Mox Ruby dies too easily from being animated.

Maybe Megrim would work? We'd need to replace Gravitic Punch, which costs a card. But after that Kaervek's Spite should be the only thing in the deck that lets us discard. Except of course the clean-up step. Could we get an illegal computation in the clean-up step and convert that into damage to the opponent?

Quote from Comprehensive Rules »

514. Cleanup Step

514.1. First, if the active player’s hand contains more cards than their maximum hand size (normally
seven), they discard enough cards to reduce their hand size to that number. This turn-based action
doesn’t use the stack.
514.2. Second, the following actions happen simultaneously: all damage marked on permanents
(including phased-out permanents) is removed and all “until end of turn” and “this turn” effects end.
This turn-based action doesn’t use the stack.
514.3. Normally, no player receives priority during the cleanup step, so no spells can be cast and no
abilities can be activated. However, this rule is subject to the following exception:
514.3a At this point, the game checks to see if any state-based actions would be performed and/or
any triggered abilities are waiting to be put onto the stack (including those that trigger “at the
beginning of the next cleanup step”). If so, those state-based actions are performed, then those
triggered abilities are put on the stack, then the active player gets priority. Players may cast
spells and activate abilities. Once the stack is empty and all players pass in succession, another
cleanup step begins.

So we discard and Megrim triggers. Then Arcbond and Comeuppance effects end. Then Megrim trigger goes on the stack and we get priority. We can recast Arcbond and Comeuppance, prepare everything for the illegal computation, then resolve the Megrim trigger and run it.

So the only way this works is if we can ensure that we cannot deal a scaling chunk of damage during clean-up. Currently the scaling damage comes via Gravitic Punch, which needs to be replaced anyway.

I think finishing them with Tezzeret, Master of Metals -3 would work? Dealing the damage in the last extra main phase from World at War.

Adding Tezzeret and replacing 2x Gravitic Punch with 2x flashback sorcery + 1x scale from opponent costs 2 cards. Miles better than going back to Cowardice.

Edit3: I still don't see why it wouldn't work. But I also missed Boom Kegs upkeep trigger, so everyone please check
Updating the decklist:

There are too many ways to damage the opponent.

Like, Arcbond a creature with no lifelink, bumped by Coat of Arms, and give it to opponent. Use Kaervek's Spite to start a "computation". At first time the creature Arcbond trigger resolves, it deals damage to other creatures (intended), to us (intended Comeuppance bounce), and to opponent. Without lifelink, the opponent simply loses with very big damage.

EDIT: oops, I forgot that this computation only deal 2 (due to Megrim) or 3 (due to Goblin Boom Keg) damage at once no matter what is the arcbonded creature. So yeah, to kill opponent in that way leading to just -2 life.

In particular, if Megrim is the only way to initially deal damage (that's redirected to damaging itself), it must itself have arcbond on it. But that means it needs lifelink if we want to start computations when the opponent has 1 life. So i think an extra card needs to be spent on that.

Arcbond can only deal 2 damage at a time (if originally triggered by Megrim. Since the game ends when the opponent dips to 0 or less a computation without lifelink can only lead to a maximum score of 1. Only a huge amount of damage/lifeloss from a single event is of concern for the clean-up step infinite consideration.

Accidentally killing the opponent after Worldfire would be bad, so I guess we do need an extra card to keep them alive there. This would be a good time for Teysa Karlov to come back in, but Gandalf the White already provides the death trigger layer. We'll have to see if there's any other card with a useful secondary function.

We don't really have a card we can cut from the final layers. So it is time to come full circle: With Megrim instead of Goblin Boom Keg there's no longer any targeting of creatures happening when creatures die. We can go back to Cowardice + Martyr of Spores and dealing our big damage in the single combat damage step we get. Turns out that frees up enough cards it would have been worth it anyway:



Since Tyvar, Jubilant Brawler is gone we don't need Search for Glory anymore. A one card layer for slot 60 would be optimal, but failing that I think the biggest improvement to the start would come from swapping Jolene -> Pain Seer + Tolarian Kraken.


Edit: Gix's Command could let the opponent survive the computation start and help us get started by accessing creatures without needing to draw them.

Edit2: It looks like Gix's Command has enough synergy with Floating-Dream Zubera that Zubera can replace Infectious Inquiry for the start. So instead of being limited to 18 draws its going to be in the 5 digits range: 60 times number of creature types that can avoid dying in the combo. Should make for some fun sequencing once we figure out the last slot.

Edit3: Here's a possible starting line with Gix + Zubera. It quickly becomes clear that we can easily get access to the entire combo:
If we cannot find a card to add a proper layer the best we can do might be to add a layer to this Zubera start. I think for that job Mind's Eye would be slightly better than Teysa Karlov or Harmonic Prodigy because we could start killing Horrors in computations as soon as the layer of draw triggers from killing the 60th Floating-Dream Horror is on the stack, instead of only after resolving all of them.

Zubera doesn't work if it can be sacrificed to spite and draw cards (including instants) during a computation

Oh, right, fair enough. Better stick with Infectious Inquiry then. ^^'

What's wrong with Karn, Silver Golem as artifact animation? Opponent's Coat of Arms is too easy to die?

What's wrong with Crawl from the Cellar as hyperstage flashback? I don't see a reason it become strong enough to break things.

Karn, Silver Golem doesn't work because it can be activated during a computation, targetting a treasure token from an SSA that was generated from death triggers (so that it has a legal target), which allows Valgorth's Lair to be sacrificed during a computation due to Brutal Suppression, creating an unbounded choice.

Hm, the return from grave effect of Crawl from the cellar might allow leaking hyperstage resources; as a bounce triggers for recovery can be generated with the original martyr instead of a token, which would normally make it unusable above the hyperstage transition, but not with crawl.

Crawl from the Cellar allows us to bring Martyr of Spores back to our hand after casting Kaervek's Spite without using a copy of a Martyr tokens ability. That's essentially a free bounce for the Martyr at the top of a foundry stage, which allows us to produce an extra token and go infinite.

Edit: We can use slot 60 to get the start only Mind's Eye layer if we use Caress of Phyrexia instead of Infectious Inquiry.

After Epic Experiment and Resurgent Belief, a TYS-ed Caress of Phyrexia will draw 9 cards and give you 9 poisons.

A start should be with Dig, Ruby, Crypt, Epic Experiment, Drake, Anikthea (better than TYS, I think), Caress.
After obtaining Omniscience, play Drake to get Orrery and mill TYS (3rd card is whatever useful later).
Play Orrery.
Play Anikthea, get creature TYS.
Now play Caress. The TYS trigger gives 2 copies. Use one to draw Fated + Gix + Post, this should set things up. Use another to draw Worldfire and some other cards. Caress card is on stack.
(If we want to use one TYS trigger to get R, we need to set things up in 2 draws and one draw for Worldfire, which looks not very probable)

And, since nothing buffs Chromescale Drake's ETB and Riftsweeper's ETB, how do we recover things after Worldfire?

Ooops, I missed Belief increasing the storm count ^^'
As you say, enabling flash first and playing in response to original caress works. We also get more fated copies than I counted, so that's good.

There's nothing stopping us from preparing multiple Chromescale Drake ETB triggers for the megastage recovery. We are allowed to spent multiple Martyr of Spores tokens on the setup, so we can just bounce the Drake with the trigger on the stack. Riftsweeper is not really possible to prepare because it targets.

Recovery could look like this:
- resolve a Drake ETB to put Drake, Omniscience and Riftsweeper into the graveyard
- resolve March on Riftweeper, use ETB to put Orrery into library
- resolve March on Drake, use ETB to put Orrery into hand, mill Martyr and Cowardice
- resolve Ratadrabik trigger on Gandalf
- resolve Ratadrabik trigger on Anikthea, create an Omniscience and Cowardice copy
- play Orrery
- resolve March to bring back Martyr
- resolve Ratadrabik on Ashnod
- activate Martyr to bounce Drake and Riftsweeper a lot and recover everything else

Many variations are possible, and being wasteful on ressources here doesn't really matter, since we only recover back to the full current progress after the next hyperstage transition below.

How come we're back to orrery instead of High fae trickster
Doesn't that also necessitate Twinning glass

flash creatures have been an issue with corardice before, but without boom keg providing targetting they seem ok (and if they were not, gandalf would also be an issue)

Gandalf the White also has Flash, and lets us play artifacts.

As a start, we play Chromescale Drake and it lets us use Vedalken Orrery, maybe better than High fae trickster?

Ah true yes; don't need twinning glass for hyperstage/megastage recovery when the gandalf in play from ratadrabik/march can flash in orrery.

Does the hyperstage really work?

Suppose we have the stack briefly:

• hyperstage transition
• hyperstage recovery
• Ashnod triggers for Martyr
• Bloodbond March triggers for Martyr
• ...
• Ashnod triggers for Martyr
• Bloodbond March triggers for Martyr
• hyperstage transition
• hyperstage recovery
• Ashnod triggers for Martyr
• Bloodbond March triggers for Martyr
• ...
• Ashnod triggers for Martyr
• Bloodbond March triggers for Martyr
• hyperstage transition
• hyperstage recovery
• ......

The hyperstage should do this: resolve the hyperstage transition then we gain one hyperstage resource (i.e. 2 life) back, which is obtained by Kaervek's Spite killing Archon of Falling Stars. However, since the kill is done at cast instead of resolve, it does not work well with Spellweaver Volute.

Let's see what happened when a Volute trigger resolve: Volute is on Spite, then we resolve Volute trigger to cast Spite. Volute leaves the battlefield. This suggests that "later on, if we resolve Volute trigger again, it will remember the card it enchant: Kaervek's Spite". After we cast a copy of Spite, exile the Spite card.

This should give us 2 life.

Next, we resolve another hyperstage transition below them. For the Volute triggers, this Volute is already gone, so we use LKI. For LKI Volute enchanted on a Kaervek's Spite card, but now the card is also gone. So the Volute trigger just does nothing.

We cannot gain the 2 life.

Also, do Soul Foundry and Spellweaver Helix check whether "the exiled card" still now exists in exile zone if they were already gone (with the exiled card still in exile zone at that time) before their ability resolve?
Any difference from Mimic Vat, which says "a card exiled with Mimic Vat"?

The sort of thing LKI is used for can be a bit confusing. Apparently it works for "copy the enchanted [object]", but not for "copy the [imprinted card]". Presumably that makes sense to someone ^^'

So for Spellweaver Volute we can create the copy and cast that copy as normal, even when the card is gone, as long as the LKI is what we want. Which is what we need to make the hyperstage work. This result is described in the last ruling on Volute:

Say Spellweaver Volute's ability triggers, then Spellweaver Volute leaves the battlefield in response. Then the instant card that was enchanted is removed from the graveyard in response. When the Volute's ability resolves, it will check its last existence on the battlefield and identify the "enchanted card" as that instant card, so the card is copied and controller of the triggered ability may cast it. (2007-05-01)

On the other hand, the Spellweaver Helix and Soul Foundry abilities do nothing when the exiled cards are gone. Which is why we never leave them on the stack for our transitions (except maybe for efficiency at the very top, where the cards really can stay exiled.) Instead for the megastage transition we leave the copy of Worldfire on the stack, that was created by Helix. We can also leave the other sorcery copies cast by that same Helix trigger, and TYS triggers from those casts on the stack. So even if the transition required a specific sequence of sorceries we could do it, but a single Worldfire should be enough.

Mimic Vat works the same way as Foundry in that it needs the card to be in exile the moment tha ability resolves. The difference is that it is possible to exile a new card with the create copy ability already on the stack. Copies of that new card will then be created. That was causing a sneaky infinite back when we were using Vat for the combo.

Soul Foundry and Spellweaver Helix and Mimic Vat, those have linked abilities, which might be the cause to behave different from a non-linked ability like Spellweaver Volute.

But I didn't find the ruling to say linked ability not to use LKI and must check whether the exiled card is still currently in exile zone.

What's wrong if opponent's creatures have haste?
If not, there is Reckless Charge or Wild Ride.

The opponent's creatures having haste means they can activate a Metalworker and sacrifice a Valgorth's Lair to Brutal suppression which affects a computation at an arbitrary point.

A better starting play sequence.

Archaeological Dig, Mox Ruby, Mana Crypt, Epic Experiment -> cast Resurgent Belief and obtain Omniscience.
play Caress of Phyrexia.

TYS count: 3; poison: 3; 5 cards in hand: Fated Infatuation + Gix's Command + Abandon the Post + Chromescale Drake + Thousand-Year Storm.

play Drake, mill Ratadrabik of Urborg + Gandalf the White + Veyran, Voice of Duality.
play TYS.
cast Gix (choose 2+3), one TYS trigger gets 4 uses in total. 1st and 2nd Gix get the three legendary creature cards.
play Gandalf (this card has flash so we can play), which enable us to play the other two legendarys.
3rd Gix kill the Veyran, then return it to hand (I'm not sure about the ruling here: if a spell/ability have modes and we choose multiple, should they apply in the order printed on card when resolve? or they happen at the same time?). Ratadrabik trigger make 2 non-legendary Veyrans. Play Veyran, now there are 3.
cast Fated (it is instant so we can play), 4 TYS triggers get 17 uses in total.
2 on Drake (Vedalken Orrery + Spellweaver Helix + Coat of Arms + Spellweaver Volute + Abandon the Post + Starlight). After that, play Orrery and Coat of Arms. (Gandalf allows playing artifacts)
14 on Ratadrabik and Gandalf alternatively. This should result in amounts like 3 Ratadrabik, 10 Gandalf, 36 Ratadrabik, 442 Gandalf, 15984 Ratadrabik and so on.
The origin Fated on Veyran. Legend rule: sacrifice the Veyran card.
The origin Gix resolve, return Veyran card to hand.

play Veyran. Legend rule: sacrifice the Veyran token. so there are (2 times what Ratadrabik+Gandalf can make) plus 3. About 1.08791*10^520 Veyrans.
play Helix, exile everything it can exile.

play Abandon the Post. This triggers Helix 1.08791*10^520 times, each can cast Starlight.
Use one Helix trigger to cast sorceries (including Resurgent Belief; do not cast Caress), getting Volute. Here I think Divine Congregation is a better Starlight.
Second Helix trigger cast sorceries (except Caress), triggering Volute, but we can only use one since there is no other instant card in graveyard; copy Drake for preparation, and then copy Ratadrabik and Gandalf for number growth.
Resolve a TYS trigger of Resurgent Belief, getting Auras except Volute.
Resolve a TYS trigger of Gix's Command, getting creatures.
Those should preparation, without using TYS triggers of Starlight/Divine Congregation.

After some preparation, we can do computation, each needing a Starlight/Divine Congregation to extract computation result. BB_{2}(1.08791*10^520) when all the Helix triggers comsumed.

Last Helix trigger cast Caress (not any Helix before this) without TYS present. We draw Worldfire+Abandon the Post this time. (6 poisons)
This should lead to BB_{w^2}(BB_{2}(1.08791*10^520)) and we have R.

Use Abandon the Post and Worldfire to build the stack. Again last Helix trigger cast Caress without TYS present. We draw Smoke Spirits' Aid. (9 poisons)

Next three Caress should let opponent draw.

Next move to combat phase for Evidence Examiner.

Final output is approximately BB_{w^3+w*3+5}(BB_{w^3+w*3+3}^3(BB_{w^3+w*3+2}(BB_{w^2}(BB_{2}(1.08791*10^520))))).

Nice start!

I'm still hoping to find an extra layer for slot 60, but no luck so far.

One promising attempt was to replace Veyran, Voice of Duality, Gandalf the White with Thran Lens + Echoes of Eternity. That would then allow Jolene, Plunder Queen -> Pain Seer + Tolarian Kraken to gain a layer. We can compensate for the extra Pious Interdiction trigger by swapping to Revenge of the Rats, because there can only be at most 1 Echoes around when Interdiction enters. But Echoes' second ability would allow us to create copies of Mox Ruby when we replay it, so the megastage produces a scaling amount of red, going infinite.

Replacing Drake with Guidelight Pathmaker might fix that, by preventing the Mox from going into our hand where we can cast it. But then we are missing mill.


Another possibility would be to find a card other than Gix's Command to allow us to start computations after Worldfire. There are so many possibly ways to do that I don't really know how to search through them, so there could easily be something out there that saves a card slot. For example, if Swords to Plowshares was a sorcery it could give the opponent some life to survive the start of computations and let us scale from the output from them. (As an instant it just goes infinite)


Edit: I just remembered that we can get mill by using Millikin to generate our colorless mana. So the Echoes of Eternity plan might work after all

Let me be more clear about why I think this works with the hyperstage: When we cast Kaervek's Spite to get an Archon of Falling Stars trigger that brings Pious Interdiction back we also wipe out all copies of Echoes under our control. The Than Lens can be donated, but that doesn't work for Echoes. So any additional triggers of Interdiction can only come from Echoes that get onto the battlefield through a death trigger. Two paths for that: 1: Archon can bring back the original Echoes. Then the original Echoes is on the battlefield, where we can do nothing else with it. 2: Ratadrabik of Urborg can create an Anikthea, Hand of Erebos, which can exile the original Echoes to create a copy. Then the original is exiled where we can do nothing else with it (no Riftsweeper can come in from death triggers). Either way we have no way to create any more Echoes copies before Interdiction enters.

If we choose the 2nd path during the combo we can later use Riftsweeper, Anikthea and Millikin to generate more copies to get the additional Spellweaver Volute triggers we need for hyperstage transitions. This allows us to consistently get 4 life from consuming a transition and pay for the bb flashback spell.


Anything I'm missing?

Guildlight Pathmaker can also put Great furnace into play cheaper
replacing it with another artifact land like Vault of whispers may work, and the blue stage would still profit enough red by bouncing mox ruby, especially as that means the mox can be copied a bunch.