MTG Salvation

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Thought for a moment that untapping ghitu encamplemnt would give the opponent mana; but it doesn't as they don't have haste. With it costing a red and tyvar only being recyclable via worldfire it seems safe.
(Catctus Preserve would have been a slightly more efficient Ghitu encamplemt, but that would break with tyvar)

Golem+grip would scale via creating a fated copy for each output creature, and pointing them as a creature like veyran or ratadrabik or aven augur
Edit: Ah i see, fated can only target your own creatures, so golem would only make copies of it for your creatures, which wouldn't scale

Edit: If this works, then here's a startup line, based on writeup startup
I don't think we can safely resolve worldfire (or spite) outside of an upkeep (need floating BBM triggers at least, which required drawing the creatures which is too expensive)
so can't get red until then
so instead we want to save as many II draws a possible to draw gravitic punch to cast sorceries

based on writeup startup:

Start: Mox ruby, Archealogical dig, Mana crypt Epic experiment -> resurgent ombi
hand:3, storm:2
TYS, II (draw 6, 3 poison, lose 6 life), search (for 4 - Veyran, Voice of Duality, Ratadrabik of Urborg, K'rrrik, son of Yargmoth, Tyvar, Jubilant Brawler)
hand:6, storm:4, poison: 3, life:14

Specify cards: Chromescale drake, Fated infatuation, Gravitic punch, High fae trickster, Artifcial evolution, 1 unspecified
Tyvar -2 mills 3 and returns Riftsweeper

Drake: panharmonicon, metalworker, precursor golem
metalworker creates 4+ mana

Golem (2 golem tokens)
AE zombify all golems and other creatures, not drake for more control over keeping stuff in library
Fated golem. 2 golem triggers, 2 tys triggers for 4 copies each
7 tys copies on ratadrabik, 1 on drake for 6 unspecified mills/artifacts (+1 from tyvar=7)
128 ratadrabiks
resolve 2 golem triggers; each creates X fateds on rata, the one on the legendary doubles and rest are +1. -> ~2048 ratas and ~veyrans

Specify up to 8 milled/artifact cards: Helix, Punch, volute, souls, 4 unspecified
Helix exiling punch, resurgent, II, search for glory

Punch: (target k'irrk and self), trigger helix 2048 times
search for rest of legends, first resurgent in volute and any others wanted like pious
souls trigger volute to cast fated, weave drakes and riftsweepers to mill everything else needed while keeping any cards we don't want to mill in library (ig sometimes enchantments that we'd rather copy with anikthea than fetch for real before resolving belief). volute also cast AE to update new golems to zombies

then layers:
- each of the 6 more IIs draws punch
- Each punch triggers many helix
- Each helix casts resurgent for many life
- Each life cast souls for many volute
- Each (other) volute cats fated for many golem triggers
- Each golem trigger ~multiplies ratas by drivnods ~= X^2

overall ~ 2048^^^^^^6 world of war and sphinx before first extra upkeep
draws in upkeep draw rest of setup and do stage stuff

this is unoptimized; could have got drivnod in first batch of searches for faster rata scaling, didn't need k'irrk until later

Edit: Hm, technically we could do a computation.
We can resolve spites off of volute triggers, gaining back life and keep our legends in play. However, once we do that we lose access to all of our nntoken stuff. Including any archons to resolve a second spite while still keeping life, metalworker and tyvar for colourless mana (one of the limiting factors preventing just casting souls).
We could store creatures and artifacts on the opponent's battlefield, but not recover them after; even with our few II drasws (can't return them to library without worldfire)

But a spite we cast *could* still start a computation.
Hm, we scale off of it *if* we resolve a punch, *and* can repeatedly cast souls after to scale storm count
Minimum requirement for that would be having ambient access to colourless mana. But, though it could be possible to have some floating BBM triggers for metalworker to return that, there's no way to return tyvar without worldfire.

So, the computation that can theoretically be started before combat can't be meaningfully scaled from, so isn't useful.

This is assuming we can't safely resolve a worldfire outside of an upkeep.
Is that necessarily true? It would be difficult at least.
Would need to have floating drake triggers, floating BBM trigger for riftsweeper, floating tys-fated copies to unexile other cards
could then resolve down to floating resurgent beleif and search for glory...
can have floating ratadrabik death triggers for anikthea to return omni
and use some floating II draws to redraw any necessary creatures like drake, then SSA

may not be impossible actually. the tricky part is there's only one opportunity to get BBM triggers in for riftsweeper. Before then volute stuff is a bit more limited. Which probably limits ability to set up necessary floating triggers.
Payoff then is that red mana and SSA gives us access to more layers to scale world at wars; and *maybe* a chance to scale off a computation.

Edit: actually drivnod can exile creatures from the grave at the cost of life, which probably makes this recovery process easier. Alongside spending some II draws, we can recover creatures better to set up floating BBM triggers and such necassary.

Ah additionally; Floodchaser can make a Ghitu encampment untapped by Tyvar tap for an extra blue; which is probably bad. Fix is to replace it with Faerie Conclave.

Edit: Ah in the startup we can't really afford to put the real TYS in play, since we can't remove it to safely resolve more IIs, except by spite, which takes more resources to recover from.
So maybe in startup we need to mill it then put in a creature copy through anikthea.

Unless we do have a setup to resolve a worldfire safely and then cast II afterwards

Edit: Ah, actually we can't easily remove a creature TYS either outside of an upkeep. So it seems like the only way really to make use of extra II draws in the startup *is* to safely resolve a spite, and maybe a worldfire to recover tyvar

Quote from Iijil »

The way I read it Titania's Song bricks all our artifacts forever, even the ones we play after getting rid of it. That makes it kinda unusable.

I'm pretty it only affects artifacts that come into play while it itself is in play. My reasoning being that generally static effects from permanents don't stick around after the permanents leave play, and having that be a thing would be kinda janky, we would have these static effects that stick around from permanents that could be long gone already, but we have to keep track of all of them.


Edit: Man, it's tough trying to get back up to speed on the challenge! I trying to read this thread when I find spare moments in my day, but I'm not getting the contexts of a lot of these posts because I've forgotten the exact details of the various mechanics, like the different stage transitions. But it looks like you guys are cooking!

The writeup contains a good breakdown of the specific details that may help catching up to speed

Titania's song is a janky card that's afaik the only continuous effect that starts as a static effect of a permenent but continues after it leaves.
But it seems more likely that it's supposed to be treated like any other static effect of a permanent - it doesn't "lock in" to the specific artifacts it applies to at any point (like it would if it were a spell like "each artifact becomes a creature and loses all abilities until end of turn") - it just lingers around as though the permanent were still in play.

One thing to keep in mind for the start is that Riftsweeper triggers have to lock in their target when they are put on the stack. That makes it extra hard to recycle Riftsweeper itself. If we ever exile Riftsweeper with a Worldfire there is no way to get it back and the combo is bricked. After sacrificing it to a Kaervek's Spite we have to get it back with Bloodbond March or Tyvar, Jubilant Brawler, both of which can be tricky.

During upkeep we can keep Riftsweeper safe through megastage consumption by tucking it into the libaray: bounce, imprint on Soul Foundry, create token to shuffle in the original. If we want Worldfire in the start we need to be more creative, like hiding Riftsweeper on the stack.

It seems barely possible to fit in a Worldfire in the start, but combining it with a profitable computation would be sketchy. It seems easier to just try for a profitable computation without Worldfire. I think that should be doable by not using Tyvar and Metalworker before the Spite. We can "get rid" of creature TYS by donating them, so only the original fully blocks later casts of II. But I'm trying (and failing) to hold off on optimizing the start for a bit while checking if everything works. Knowing a modest start is possible should be good enough for now.


There's a close call with Gravitic Punch almost starting an illegal computation: When we cast it and target ourself a creature will deal damage to us. If we control that creature then Comeuppance ignores that damge. If we don't control the creature Comeuppance would deal damage back, potentially triggering Arcbond. But of course Gravitic Punch only targets creatures we control, so even if we donate the target before Punch resolves, the creature will be an illegal target and Punch cannot cause it to deal damage.

Now if the opponent could cast Punch, then their creatures could hit into Comeuppance and start an illegal computation. But luckily Gravitic Punch is our only sorcery that the opponent cannot cast. If we donate a Spellweaver Helix with two Punches exiled, then we have no way of triggering it. If only one Punch is exiled then we can trigger the Helix and the opponent can cast every other exiled sorcery, but not the Punch itself

Attempt at a start that includes a worldfire:

Open ruby crypt experiment tys search II
4 copies of search for veyran, ratadrabik, tyvar, anikthea
3 copies of II for 6 cards: drake, trickster, fated, riftsweeper, gravitic punch, worldfire

Drake: Panharmonicon, Metalworker, Precursor golem
Metalworker for 4 colourless, golem

Fated: 7 copies. (+2 golem triggers, that just make more golems)
7 on ratadrabik for 128 of them (it would be nice to have drivnod here too to make more, but couldn't fit it in off initial search)
1 veyran for 129 of them
1 drake - 6 unspecified mills artifacts

Specify: Helix, punch, volute, march, probably the last 2 as souls + AE

Anikthea for march

Helix for resurgent, punch, II, search
Foundry imprint riftsweeper, make copy. (uses 2 colourless mana)

Tyvar +1 untaps foundry. This allows us to have a floating foundry activation later, which does function if we don't remove the riftsweeper from exile.
(this is also why we required march before our last oppotunity for a sorceryspeed action, which required anikthea from initial searches. Could we use something like Karn, Silver Golem instead in order to allow drivnod from initial searches for more veyrans now?)

Punch from hand, (target lowest power creature and self; we can get enough life to be able to take those hits later)
Trigger 130 helix
Search fetches rest of legends
First resurgent fetches volute. Can souls with rest on stack to cast fated and trigger the volute dance t mill the rest of anything needed.
Resurgant copies are worth +2 life

So far, opponent has 3 poison, so may resolve II a total of 6 more times.

Souls into fated can set up floating triggers for 2 life each such as:
- Drake ETBs
- Ratadrabik deaths, floating making nonlegendary copies of legends
- TYS copies of fated (and other instants)

We may also float a foundry activation for riftsweeper once.

Then, to safely resolve a worldfire after sme setup:

- Cast worldfire from hand
- (could techncially start a computation here by resolving a spite (if we also had necromancers, which we don't have the spare draws for anyway). but there'd be no way to resolve a punch in between here and resolving the worldfire, so we couldn't scale from it anyway)
- Resolve worldfire. Everything exiled
- Resolve floating foundry activation for riftsweeper
- Resolve floating TYS-fated to unexile everything (some cards we want to keep in exile; we can also have floating legend creation to have extra things to point extra fated copies at (can also choose not to change targets so unwanted copies fizzle, but might as well copy legends))
- Resolve floating drake ETBs to mill everything/draw all artifacts (can float correct number to keep anything wanted to be kept in library)
- Resolve down to helix triggers: safely resolve some IIs, resurgent in enchantments (not TYS before resolving IIs we want), search for legends. fated copy whatever we want
- IIs draw at minimum: drake, trickster, SSA, ? - for 2 IIs (5 poison)

Now we can SSA and got lots of red mana.
At minimum, that's worth an extra layer as each red mana can cast a punch for helix triggers. (if we swap Tamiyo's Journal for Morska, Undersea Sleuth, we can always discard that to punch's jump start cost and not miss it, and recycle it through drivnod)


From here, we may be able to do worldfire again, but it costs more II draws to recover.
Was trying to find a way to do a computation from here.
But the issue is scaling off of it.
After we resolve spite, need to resolve a punch for BB life.
Then, we need to translate that into storm count before resolving a worldfire - thus need in play at least tyvar, volute, tokens of drake, riftsweeper, trickster, metalworker - to be able to repeatedly cast souls, recycle it and instants enough, and sustain its colourless costs.

Need to thus have not cast tyvar before the spite.
(=> can't make more colourless mana yet; thus use what we have from prev setup to do next setup. also means we couldn't use all the layers available to maximise red from last ssa copy)

Putting those creatures in play can either be done with a floating foundry (with multiple cards exiled due to panharmonicon), or BBM triggers.
If foundry is used, can't untap it with tyvar first so can't have those creatures in play while setting up. (riftsweeper though was already in play from prior setup. might also be able to have trickster in play also, if that was also exiled to first foundry)

Need to not have march in play to activate foundry without tyvar in play (unless march was swapped for Karn, Silver Golem - that seems like the way we can still have multiple panharmonicons in play by this point to exile more than 2 things with foundry)

Edit: hm i was gonna say karn could cause issues in computations, but there can't be relevant artifacts in play that aren't already animated.
However, karn does leave us with no place to keep our nontoken artifacts safe during computations. Even with coat of arms -> sliver legion swap, where a computation could be started without needing to un-animate artifacts, we coudn't recover them.
Unless however, we did one computation per megastage transition.. which is still sufficient to scale

But if foundry is used here, it couldn't be used again for setting up worldfire recovery. So maybe we use BBM instead. But then we've already cast our creatures from hand and can't get use from foundry anyway. hm.

The last unspecified II draw is *probably* riftsweeper but may work without (if we tyvar it in instead)

Setup:
- Specify additional prior II draw: Necromancer, Channex (6 poison)
- Can have several BBMs in play by this point from prior floating anikthea entries + drake/riftweeper triggers/copies
- Souls - donate channex
- Play each creature for BBM triggers, drake and riftsweeper recycle souls
- Souls - use fateds to set up computation (copying/donating/hacking necromancers, play arcbond).
- Resolve spite to start computation. When its over, creatrues have BB power; have anikthea ETBs for omni and TYS
- BBM triggers return drake, riftsweeper, necromancer, trickster

Can only do one computation here, not multiple before a worldfire as can't recycle the boom keg


From here, we can play helix (couldn't have safely had it in play before spite)
exile all sorceries
Next punch allows us to scale storm count to BB.

Can we safely resolve a worldfire here with the same setup?
We can currently safely resolve IIs (and thus draw SSA) without having a TYS in play after saccing it to spite, without needing to cast worldfire.
Worldfire *may* allow another computation however. (we may be able to do one now, but couldn't scale from it, as couldn't recover tyvar)

Ah, but to recover from that worldfire, need to get a riftsweeper into play. Doing that from our current floating BBM-riftsweeper trigger doesn't work; can't get riftsweeper into grave before it.
Riftsweeper currently in play so can't arange for it to be in library before worldfire like we normally would with full megastages in an upkeep.
Unless we can resolve another spite to get it out of play? But then after that spite we have the same problem, it's in grave (or exile from drivnod), but need to resolve a riftsweeper etb to actually get it into library; and there's no in play token riftsweeper to copy with floating copies.
Even if we could use another II draw now I don't see a way to move riftsweeper to hand.
(in regular megastage work, we just bounce it and exile it to foundry, and foundry token puts it into library)

If we used foundry instead of BBM to recover creatures from post spite, do we get anywhere? We don't still have our foundry in play to untap with tyvar, nor could have untapped it prior for an extra floating activation.
What foundry there *would* allow for would be to actually have riftsweeper in library by this point.
But then that *still* doesn't help with worldfire recovery - We won't have a floating BBM-riftsweeper trigger any more to take advantage of riftwepper being in library. We could draw riftsweeper now with an II, and make BBM triggers, but then riftsweeper *isn't* in the library.

Could we have resolved an II before the floating foundry activation then? If we had helix in play before spite, maybe... (but then we *wouldn't* have helix now... we'd maybe cast worldfire from hand..)
However then that II wouldn't have had a chance to put riftsweeper into play before resolving it, so still can't draw riftsweeper. (in fact even if it did then the floating foundry trigger would then be useess as riftsweeper would have been removed frm exile)

So, I don't see a way to cast a second worldfire or do a second computation here.
Without worldifre, can't scale from a second computation even if we did resolve another spite, as we'd lose tyvar.

If we had Mirror of fate instead of riftsweeper, that might be more convenient for floating activations.
Last time we were using mirror, there were complications with opponent activating it? Which is now not an issue
But, it makes hyerstage stuff more difficult; can't have tokens in play after a hyperstage transition.
I thought we had some complicated way to deal with that involving doing more hyperstage transitions every time we need to unexile something during stage work; however thinking through it now I don't think it is possible to do that enough to handle the foundries needed to replenish stage creatures.

We can resolve 3 more IIs.
Draw SSA, sphinx, and 4 unspecified.
If we instead draw SSA multiple times, we need to not put a TYS in play in between II draws, which we couldn't get rid of without a spite.
Doing so would lose a layer of scaling (1 helix trigger = many resurgent beleif copies) (this is layer otherwise; we can have pious fall off a legendary creature that we make a copy of later each time resurgent resolves) (alternative layer is 1 punch cast = many punch copies, 1 punch copy is many life - but that relies on opponent having infinite life through deathtouch arcbond which we can't do while *also* doing a regular computation to scale to BB)
So better to have +1 layer and draw SSA fewer times.

Edit: Ah, in fact the fact that we can donate away creature TYSs makes it possible to safely draw SSA multiple times. So we draw it like 3 times instead.

*then* we scale as much as possible with remaining red and in hand SSA.

Approximate world at war and sphinx before combat: f_7^3(BB(f_5(120)))

Nice start. Untapping a Foundry with Riftsweeper imprinted is a good move. But we need to be careful: Riftsweeper's etb isn't optional, so it could force us to unexile cards we want to keep under Foundry or Helix. In your line we could play around it by imprinting a second creature and using some fated copies to generate more mana.

If at all possible we also want to increase the input of the 1 computation we get instead of trying to increase the output with normal layers later. So we probably want to spend extra II draws before the computation. Only leave the bare minimum to lock in the progress for after.


For the ending layers Precursor Golem cannot be combined with Drivnod, Carnage Dominus. After a Golem trigger creates copies of Smoke Spirits' Aid the targets are locked in, so we cannot go through the entire combo after a single copy resolves without fizzling the rest. We can replace Precursor with Ondu Spiritdancer. The extra enchantment copies don't have a target, so this one actually gets the extra layer.

Good points.
To have an extra thing in exile we don't mind the first riftsweeper unexiling, An extra creature under foundry works (that creature ends up in the library ultimately,but with a token of it in play). An alternative is to copy a panharmonicon with an earlier fated so that helix can exile an extra 2 sorceries.

Actually, it seems like Ondu Spiritdancer goes infinite. When pious enters, it triggers a bunch of spiritdancers, but in response to those triggers we can use the life to makemore spiritdancers, so the next spiritdancer trigger tcreates more spiritdancer triggers.
So can't use that,i think it's never actually worked.
Need to find another ending layer card then.

A difficulty with scaling as much as possible before a computation is when we have access to colourless mana.
It's needed for scaling after the computation as well.

Let's look at the reources available in each section

Section I: Initial

- Resolve 3 IIs
- Nontoken TYS in play (can't resolve more IIs)
- Token copies of riftsweeper and maybe another creature in play, with the nontokens in exile (non riftsweeper one can be in library)
- Untapped foundry with riftsweeper
- Nontoken copies of drake, trickster, metalworker in play, each legend; + token copies
- Tyvar in play, activation used
- Helix in play with 4 sorceries - punch, II, resurgent, search
- Helix triggers on stack, plenty of life and token copies of creatures

To resolve worldfire: Need floating foundry activation and several other floating triggers

Section II: Post first worldfire

- Riftsweeper token in play
- All cards in exile, library, or graveyward (artifacts in hand)
- Nontoken TYS not in play and now never needs to be; can safely resolve IIs
- Token copies of legends in play, and thus animated non-aura enchantments may also be in play
- After resolving down to a helix trigger, can put volute in play through resurgant

Considerations:
- Before we put in drake, we can gain a maximum of 4 life (floating helix for resurgent puts in pious and volute; next helix triggers volute casting fated and killing a legend that pious was attached to; then casts resurgent putting in pious again. but now fated is in exile/library. but even *that* only works if we had previously put in trickster to put in the real legends after resolving a search; no other way to have something die to return pious to grave)
- - If we do have drake and trickster however; one helix trigger scales to X life by interleaving volute triggers with resurgent-TYS triggers
- We can have plenty of red mana through SSA. To transate that into other scaling, need helix in play (thus wont have it in play after computation)
- Need to put in (at least tokens of) drake and trickster to do much. To set up for later recovery, can be done with either BBM or foundry.
- For full scaling, we'd need scalable colourless mana and thus tyvar. However, then we can't have tyvar post-computation, which is needed for scaling.

To set up for post-computation scaling:
- Need to setup recovery for drake, trickster, riftsweeper, metalworker, tyvar, volute
- - for tyvar, need to not use tyvar now
- - for volute, need to have floating helix trigger; either by using helix now or keeping an old helix trigger floating
- - drake, trickster need to be done by BBM; need them in play now (need instant speed actions to set up necassary floating triggers) and can't afford to untap a foundry with them
- - riftsweeper could be done by foundry (already have token of it right now and thus wouldn't need to untap the foundry for it to be useful). This makes it possible to keep riftsweeper in exile/library
- - Alternatively riftsweeper could be kept in library now and drawn by II later?
- - metalworker may also be done by foundry since we don't need one right now
- Need to be able to resolve punch after (floating TYS punch now, or later)

Then we set up recovery and start the computation

Section III: Post computation

- Boom keg is in grave, so are foundry, helix, panharmonicon if we used them prior. Can't recover them without worldfire.
- Nontoken creatures we had in play before are in grave (this includes drake and trickster)
- Have token legends in play
- Volute is in grave until we resolve a floating helix trigger
- Safe to resolve II draws from floating helix trigger

Recover creatures: drake, trickster, riftsweeper, metalworker. Drake and trickster nontokens must be in play; riftsweeper may be in library.
Can scale to BB storm after resolving a punch.

In order to resovle a second worldfire, would need a recovery mechanism for riftsweeper.
But BBM wouldn't work as then couldn't return riftsweeper to library before resolving worldfire.

Hm, foundry could work however? In order to have riftsweeper in hand to put under a foundry, we could have kept it in the library the entire time, and drawn it with II post computation. We wouldn't have it in play at all right now, which we do need; however we now have access to a foundry untap with tyvar at sorcery speed. Hm, returning to thispoint later.

We can full scale off layers now by having tyvar in play, and using helix, without having used it in section II.

However, we couldn't have done full layer scaling pre-computation in section II, because then we wouldn't have tyvar here for scaling off the computation output.

However, could we use a different colourless mana source? Mana echoes isn't dependant on tyvar in play, so could be used for colourless mana in both sections II and III.
It gives the opponent colourless mana though.
However, without Martyr of spores, that seems workable.
The only other activated ability to worry about is Soul foundry. But with March of the machines+Coat of arms -> Karn, Silver Golem+Sliver legion swap, that's fine because the opponent can now never have a noncreature soul foundry, and they don't ahve the haste to activate a creature one.
Karn is also safe (for both the opponent and us to have during computations) because the only artifacts that can be in play during a computation must already be creatures.

So I think that lets us get in full layer scaling before computation in section II, which is good.

Now; second worldfire and thus second computation possibility?
Seems doable by keeping the riftsweeper in library and using a foundry untap.

II draws needed:
Section I:
- 3 IIs (drake, riftsweeper, trickster, fated, punch, worldfire)
- riftsweeper under foundry and untapped
Section II: worldfire
- II draws unlocked freely for rest of combo by removing TYS
- riftsweeper in library but with token in play, other cards in library
- 2 IIs: drake, trickster, SSA, channex (5 poison)
- set up BBM recoveries
Section III: computation
- BBM recovers drake, trickster, metalworker
- II: riftsweeper, ? (SSA?) (6 poison)
- token riftsweeper with foundry, untap foundry
Section IV: worldfire 2
- riftsweeper in library with token in play, other cards in library
- same situation as section II it seems
- 2 IIs: drake, trickster, ? (SSA?), channex (8 poison)
- set up BBM recoveries
Section V: computation 2
- BBM recovers drake, trickster, metalworker, riftsweeper
- II: sphinx, ? (SSA?) (9 poison)

so it seems we get 2 computations, and if mana echoes is ok we get full layer scaling as input to each
not sure if we can optimise the II draws a little further by putting extra things under foundry or something

Edit: Forgot to account for the need for necromancer off an II draw to actually start computations.
Hm.. can put it in an extra II for section 2, but also need it in the unspecified draw for section 4, then there's nowhere to put the sphinx draw which is also needed.
Hmm, actually the sphinx draw can go in section 3; and then actually be on the stack throughout (don't need to empty stack for sorcery speed tyvar activation after the section 3 one)

Oh no, Ondu Spiritdancer layer down

We can add Jolene, the Plunder Queen instead. Scaling of each Smoke Blessing death trigger.

We can choose between Precursor Golem and Drivnod, Carnage Dominus layer, whichever is better for the start. With Precursor we can profit from computations via SSA enchanting all the opponents creatures. So technically no colorless needed after the final start computation. But the plan to get cheap colorless by making it safe for the opponent seems better.

True
Drivnod for the start allows for more initial helix triggers, but only when anikthea does not need to be fetched with initial searches, which she does when using mana echoes.
Golem vs drivnod both provide the same layer in initial start scaling that they do in the ending
Drivnod provides X^2 scaling for copying a legend at the top level of the start rather than 2X, which gets rounded down by the FGH approximation but is still marginally more efficient. Golem meanwhile doesn't get anything extra (golem triggers for fated are roughly equivilant to TYS copies for fated; they just get to 4X rather than 2X; not an extra layer or anything)

Golem can indeed scale from a computation without needing colourless mana - we can have the opponent's creatures die for treasures by changing their creature types with AE, as they have damage.
That's relevant if we don't use mana echoes, but it seems like the only real argument against using it is to allow drawing drivnod with intitial search, which is a moot point with golem.

Ah, but in the startup, in order to repeatedly cast punch, we need to repeatedly discard stuff, which can then be cheaply recycled.
Drivnod allows for exiling discarded legends to be recycled with riftsweeper or search, but I don't see a way to do that without drivnod. (in the full combo in upkeep steps however, we can always discard anikthea, return it with resurgant, then bounce it).

So does is needed for getting full layers out of punch during startup. Otherwise, we can cast punch equal to the number of times we have easily drawable cards in hand that we don't care about (legends, artifacts, snow covered island)

However.. the fact that golem enables post computation scaling may allow for delaying the recovery of the main creatures, which may enable more computations.

Attempt:
Section I:
- 3 IIs (drake, riftsweeper, trickster, fated, punch, worldfire)
- riftsweeper under foundry and untapped
Section II: worldfire
- II draws unlocked freely for rest of combo by removing TYS
- riftsweeper in library but with token in play, other cards in library
- 2 IIs: drake, trickster, SSA, riftsweeper (5 poison)
- Foundry in each creature, untap foundry (tyvar needed here + stack clear)
- SSA for red mana
- 1 more II: SSA, necromancer (6 poison)

Punch for helix triggers until out of usable punches. With a helix trigger, cast worldfire.
Cast SSA to float golem triggers
Eventually resolve spite, starting computation
Post spite:
- resolve floating SSA-golem followed by floating AE to kill opp's creatures for BB treasures. Some red most black.
- resolve worldfire
- resolve floating foundry to put in riftsweeper,drake,trickster, start normal worldfire recovery

Section III: post computation and worldfire
- creatures in library, tokens of drake,riftsweeper,trickster in play
- scale storm to black mana from souls casts
- 2 IIs: drake,riftsweeper,trickster,necromancer, SSA, sphinx (8 poison) Edit: uhh, 3 IIs, 9 poison
- foundry in creatures besides sphinx, untap foundry
- Put sphinx onto the stack

Can then do the same thing - computation followed by worldfire, scale by floating golem-SSA.

Section IV: post computation2 and worldfire
- creatures in library, tokens of drake,riftsweeper,trickster,necromancer,sphinx in play
- sphinx is on the stack
- one more II draw remaining. Edit: uhh ig not
- II: riftsweeper, drake (9 poison)
- Put those under a foundry, don't untap in order to not need to clear stack for a sorcery speed untap, keeping sphinx on stack

Resolve spite for 3rd computation
Afterwards:
- Resolve floating foundry for riftsweeper and drake
- Resolve floating SSA-golem triggers and AE to scale mana (or we can resolve a floating punch to scale life, same effect)
- Resolve down sphinx on stack into play
- Resolve down to empty stack. Trickster not in play, thus must act at sorcery speed
- Scale black mana into storm by casting souls
- Punch until out of discardable cards, castin world at war and copying sphinx

Then in first upkeep we can use a clue to draw trickster and flash it in to enable flash for rest of combo
Edit: actually carrying colourless mana into our upkeep is nontrivial, but we can use our first extra draw step instead. Subsequent upkeeps we have trickster in play so we can just flash in another creature to kickstart colourless production there.

So; it looks like golem enables a third computation. If that's not possible with drivnod, then beats the extra layers from being able to get full value out of punch.

Do we actually get extra draw steps? Or do we skip them all of them, because it's still our first turn in a 2 player game? ^^'

Quote from Comprehensive Rules »

103.8a In a two-player game, the player who plays first skips the draw step (see rule 504, “Draw
Step”) of their first turn.

eh, worst case we can probably just keep a few treasures into upkeep if we can't get the mana otherwise. Good job fitting in 3 computations

Quote from Iijil »

Do we actually get extra draw steps? Or do we skip them all of them, because it's still our first turn in a 2 player game? ^^'

Quote from Comprehensive Rules »

103.8a In a two-player game, the player who plays first skips the draw step (see rule 504, “Draw
Step”) of their first turn.

eh, worst case we can probably just keep a few treasures into upkeep if we can't get the mana otherwise. Good job fitting in 3 computations

Good question. I took this to judge chat:

TheOthin 15:35:48
Hiya! Question about this rule:
103.8a In a two-player game, the player who plays first skips the draw step (see rule 504, “Draw Step”) of their first turn.
If that player gets multiple beginning phases on their first turn (ex. Sphinx of the Second Sun), do they skip the draw steps of all their beginning phases, or just the first one?
Aluvian has joined
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Aluvian 15:36:59
Correct, they need to be the same mana value.
R0b 15:37:27
TheOthin: I'd say they skip all their draw steps

Not the most confident answer, but it does sound like the default reading.

Yeah ppl in the RulesGuru server agree
apparently its consistent with a deleted twitter ruling about Savor the moment skipping all the untap steps of that turn

but yeah looks like we can keep a few treasures around for it anyway
my setup floats SSA triggers in section III that are used for 2 computations; which is fine - can float necassary TYS-fated etc triggers above those, then the foundry activation; so recoverin in section 4 resolves those and has fully functional gamestate down to resolving one SSA-golem
and can still leave the other floating for after second computation

then dont need to resolve any more spites or worldfires so those treasures can be kept around

Edit: hm, does that work actually? After resolving a floating SSA after a spite, need to resovle first an AE to kill opponent's creatures to get the treasure, then a worldfire. So we can't keep the SSA-golem triggers from the same batch floating.

However, it's fine because firstly we can use a floating punch to scale from the third coputation and secondly we can have Mana crypt in play for the mana to activate the first clue (hooray, a second use!)
(we can also have untapped Mox ruby and Great furnace in play too, if we were to keep around a blue mana to activate Master transmuter. but crypt is cheaper)

Yay, mana rocks!

There is a problem though: In section III 6 cards are drawn, but only 2 II's are accounted for.

Ah, whoops
Might be able to fix it: Remove drake and sphinx from IIs in section III - a drake token is already in play during section III, and drake is drawn again in section IV, so drawing drake here is redundant.
Then replace the riftsweeper in section IV for sphinx.
In section V, a necessary riftsweeper for scaling can then be broguht back by tyvar's -2, as tyvar is not neeeded in section IV.

Thinking about the requirements for each section systematically if we want 3 computations

Overall requirements:
- Before setting up to resolve a worldfire, need access to trickster (to allow for floating the necassary stuff after), and a way to float riftsweeper entering
- Before setting up a computation, need access to necromancer and trickster
- After a computation that has a worldfire after, need an SSA-golem floating; needed to have SSA while setting up
- After a computation, need access to drake and riftsweeper to scale to storm (whather scaled to mana via ssa or life via punch)

Section I, start:
- Seems best openning draw: crypt mox dig experiment tys search II
- Need drake
- Need trickster
- Need floatable riftsweeper
- Need to draw fated, punch, worldfire:
- - fated to get started to have enough milling and veyrans for first helix batch to do much
- - punch in hand as the only way to access helix
- - worldfire in hand as cannot afford to cast it with first helix batch, can't set up necassary recovery underneath without even volute in play
- - - is an alternative replacing fated,worldfire for volute at all feasible? hm, then post-worldfire can't resolve helix triggers, including drawing SSA

Section II, post worldfire
- Have token riftsweeper. May have other tokens right now, but not drake (can't afford to foundry it)
- Need floatable riftsweeper
- Need drake
- Need trickster
- Need necromancer
- Need to draw SSA twice
- - Once for initial access to red mana
- - Once to float cast in between computation and worldfire for scaling (can't use the same one, need the red mana to put the next worldfire on the stack first which means must have cast SSA already)

Section III, post computation+worldfire
- Have token riftsweeper, maybe others
- Need floatable riftsweeper
- Need drake
- Need trickster
- Need necromancer
- Need to draw SSA

Section IV, post computation2+worldfire
- Have token riftsweeper, maybe others
- Need drake
- Need trickster
- Need necromancer

Section V, post computation3
- May have floated tokens
- Need drake
- Need riftsweeper (but can actually be fetched with tyvar-2 here)
- Need sphinx
- Don't need trickster

Total draw requirements from IIs:
- Opening noncreature draws (fated punch worldfire): 3
- SSA: Needs to be drawn 3 times, twice in section II and once in section III.
- Riftsweeper: Is needed in all 5 sections, and to be put under foundries to float. In section V, can be fetched by tyvar; and in section III it was floated to be accassible in section IV, so needs to be drawn 3 times
- Necromancer: Needed in 3 sections. A draw can account for having access to it in 2 sections via a foundry float, so needs to be drawn 2 times.
- Drake: Needed in all 5 sections. Via foundry floats providing access in 2 sections, needs to be drawn 3 times
- Trickster: Needed in 4 sections. Via foundry float, needs to be drawn 2 times.
- Sphinx: Needs to be drawn 1 time.

Total: 3+3+3+2+3+2+1 = 17; with 1 draw to spare.
The above line with the stated fix draws trickster 1 more time than necessary, as it could be floated through a foundry from section I.

Additionally, in the setup, anikthea exiling mana echoes provides the extra thing for riftsweeper to unexile to make its first token, rather than an extra creature to foundry or an extra sorcery to helix by spending more fateds.
Not sure then where best to use this spare draw we have; probably an extra SSA in section II? over the trickster that's currently there. Earlier seems better to get bigger inputs to the first computations.

Layers an SSA is worth in the start:
- 1 SSA -> X copies or golem triggers
- (golem triggers aren't worth a full layer; as currently only legendary creatures are easy to make die)
- 1 copy of SSA on a creature thats easy to make die (a legend) -> X treasures through jolene
- 1 black mana -> X volute triggers
- 1 volute trigger -> X copies of fated

That's actually only the same number of layers as punch
- 1 Punch -> X helix triggers
- 1 helix trigger -> X copies of resurgent
- 1 copy of resurgent = 2 life -> X volute triggers
- 1 volute trigger -> X copies of fated

So I suppose any card we draw here is worth about the same as SSA just by being an extra thing to discard to punch

We actually do have repeated discard fodder available: a copy of Anikthea, Hand of Erebos can exile the original out of the graveyard. Then Riftsweeper, Search for Glory, ready to discard.

So Smoke Spirits' Aid is a good option for a free draw. Even better would be a card that enables an extra layer. Ruin Ghost almost gets a layer worth of red out of every white by flickering Great Furnace, which we can get into play with Chromescale Drake and Master Transmuter. The problem is that the cost of Brutal Suppression for Ashnod the Uncaring is too high.

Illusionist's Bracers is another option for ability copying we could use now, since we dropped Cowardice. As long as we animate with March of the Machines to prevent it going on Soul Foundry. But it would need support from Forge Anew, and the only card it actually allows us to drop is Brutal Suppression:
- Search for Glory still needs to recover Tyvar, Jubilant Brawler
- Lands are all required for the additional stages
- Ashnod has to stay in for copies of the Aven Augur ability. We can't create any copies of Bracers after consuming a Hyperstage transition so the Aven stages below those wouldn't work. Bracers also can't provide extra draws from clues, but Tamiyo's Journal could be replaced by Netherese Puzzle-Ward for the same layers without Ashnods help.

With it costing a card slot Bracers doesn't seem to be an option for now.


The other approach to getting the start layer is making land sacrifices cheap enough. And I think we can do that by replacing Ghitu Encampment with Valgavoth's Lair. That is easily accessible and gets animated by using Anikthea. Anikthea seems to do everything

We only need to convince ourselves that getting any color of mana with a Tyvar untap doesn't go infinite. I think crafting the starting lines demonstrated that well enough:
- any infinite involving a Tyvar activation would have to take place in a main phase, so no Aven bounce is available
- to reuse Tyvar we need at least Worldfire. And to repeat that we will also need Riftsweeper and Chromescale Drake
- there's no way to get those non-legendary creatures into hand without using a limited draw, so we can only keep them safe through a Worldfire a limited number of times
- Tyvar's -2 might help to get back Riftsweeper, but then the +1 can't be used, and this still doesn't help with Drake

Bonus: With Valgavoth's Lair we can use the Tyvar untap to get access to red before the first Worldfire. Could that potentially enable a fourth computation between Section I and II? We'd draw SSA instead of Worldfire and trigger the latter from a Spellweaver Helix. But if we do that we don't get to untap the Soul Foundry in Section I, which we needed to do to both get a Riftsweeper token and float one for Worldfire recovery. Maybe we can create a token, then bounce Foundry with Master Transmuter and redraw Riftsweeper to imprint it again? So I think there's a chance, if no other extra draws are needed. But then again, I don't even know if we can get the right number of draws in in section I. The original Thousand-Year Storm would still be in play, so we can't just get rid of that to cast Infectious Inquiry

Good find!
It looks like tyvar untapping lair is indeed safe; since repeating requires worldfire which requires drawing at least riftsweeper at some point.
(if it wasn't safe anyway then Urza's Saga would be an alternative; as giving the opponent mana has been made safe. but i think lair does work too)

And that enables using the spare draw we have on Ruin ghost for the additional layer.

It is possible to cast SSA from the first worldfire like that.
We can safely resovle one more II in section I in exchange for one draw from Search. Ratadrabik might actually not be fully needed while getting started.
Can't float a foundry without drawing riftsweeper again, which we can't really do with a later II.

Can we float a riftsweeper-BBM trigger instead? That would require drawing Chancellor of the Annex.
Except, actually, I think we can use Cephalid Shrine now? The issue previously was with putting it into play in time to counter a Kaervek's Spite after resolving worldfire during megastage transitions. But now we can have a floating ratadrabik trigger to make an anikthea to return shrine in time.
Wow, anikthea really *does* do everything.

Ah, but the issue with riftsweeper-BBM was that it denies the ability to put riftsweeper into the library before resolving worldfire, so can't actually be used to recover it properly.
And we don't have an available II draw to put it under foundry twice without untapping it.

Additionally, to actually do a computation in between sections I and II, need to draw an SSA a second time to have access to scaling between the spite and worldfire; which we don't have the ability to safely resolve II for before removing TYS.

So the ability to cast SSA before the first worldfire is interesting, but it seems like it can't enable much more on its own.

Can access to BBM triggers through Cephalid shrine without needing to draw Chancellor of the annex save any II draws?
I don't think so; it seems they can't save riftsweeper draws, and for the other creatures seem like they could save at best 1 drake draw or 1 trickster draw, at the expense of not being untap foundries while keeping them on the stack, which probably costs more draws.

Urza's Saga or any other cheap untapped land would go infinite by providing extra targets for Floodchaser. We are not allowed to produce extra blue from that.

Funnily enough it would have been fine before the Final Fantasy rules change
Now a saga that loses its abilities gets to stay in play.

Valgavoth's Lair is still good however.

I see you've started putting the new version of the deck into the moxfield primer

Some nitpicks:
- My name starts with a capital i, not L

- Playing Precursor Golem with Mana Echoes and Panharmonicon gives 42 mana instead of 5. The first "create golems" trigger we resolve gives us 4 mana echoes triggers that have to be resolved before the other golems can be created.

- The first Fated Infatuation cast doesn't trigger Precursor Golem, unless we target a golem. I don't think we do, or we'd get one less copy that's actually useful. Neither does the second Fated. We can wait for those triggers until after Artificial Evolution.

- "The 6 cards revealed by Chromescale Drake will be: Spellweaver Helix, Soul Foundry, and Karn, Silver Golem to our hand, and Spellweaver Volute, Artificial Evolution, and the second Gravitic Punch to the graveyard. That last doesn't matter that much." -- it sounds like it *does* matter when in the very next sentence we imprint that Punch under Helix.

- the stack after resolving the second Spellweaver Helix trigger should have Search under Belief. We have to cast Search first if we want to get more TYS copies of Belief, so the order of those spells on the stack is fixed. Not that they really matter when we get to them. It's just the TYS triggers of either spell that we can order however we want, since those don't go on the stack until the Helix trigger finished resolving.


EDIT: I just realized that Karn, Silver Golem + Mana Echoes actually goes infinite by enabling an illegal computation. If there is any noncreature artifact in play the opponent can activate Karn and sacrifice an animated land to Brutal Suppression, affecting a computation at an arbitrary time. And while it is sneaky there is a way to have noncreature artifacts during computations: Have a Smoke Blessing from Smoke Spirits' Aid on one of the creatures we sacrifice to the inciting Kaervek's Spite. That puts a treasure into play and provides the target for Karn.

There are a couple more errors in names: you have written "ais529" in several places (it should be "ais523"), and you have left off the last "l" in mine.

When this project was recently brought up elsewhere, I hit upon an analogy that may be useful here. The core idea that produces stages is analogous to the concept of place value: a triggered ability (or spell copy, etc.) has a different value depending on its location on the stack.

Ah good point
Toymaker should be a replacement for Karn, Silver Golem, as opponent can't use without haste; though the discard cost is awkward for startup.
Other alternatives are Xenic Poltergeist (which is not ideal; needs to be drawn) or Karn's Touch (does that work if fated draw is replaced by volute, and we mill souls and 2 instants with initial drakes? loses an initial search draw for k'irrk, however)

Xenic Poltergeist gives the opponent access to non-creature Soul Foundry by just waiting for our next additional upkeep after donating.

Toymaker and Karn's Touch could work, but don't look like drop in replacement for the start with those extra costs.

Another option would be to go back to Metalworker instead of Mana Echoes. Once we have batches of Volutes on the stack there is essentially no difference in mana production for our estimate purposes. The problem would be potential loss of layers when we don't have Tyvar, Jubilant Brawler in play. That should only be the case in Section IV of the start. There we convert BB output in the form of mana into new BB input. Layers are a rounding error at that point, so we don't really need the extra colorless here. A higher input to the first computation is more important.

Metalworker is almost a drop in for the start. We only need 7 colorless before we get to batches of Volutes, so at the cost of a single additional Chromescale Drake copy from the first fated we can get enough artifacts in hand to produce that in one Metalworker tap.

With Toymaker we'd need to discard a legend, which are not free at that point and all accounted for. Touch needs even more significant changes, but in my head it also misses out on a legend from the first 4 to get Krrk instead.

So swapping back to Metalworker seems like the best option, unless I missed something. We can then keep Karn, Silver Golem for selective animation, just to avoid any start hassle with March of the Machines animating Great Furnace.

Toymaker can also discard an extra artifact, if we point an extra initial fated at drake.
Karn, Silver Golem is bad for us to have in play for the same reasons it's bad for the opponent; and can stay in play due to ratadrabik (that's hacked to make it a rebel in addition to its other types)

Ah, right. So Metalworker could still go with March of the Machines. But Toymaker discarding an extra artifact does look like the better option.

Hm; actually an issue with Toymaker is that it is required to be used during stage transitions to bounce the foundry; however it requires haste for that which we don't have access to.
So looks like we need to use Metalworker + March of the machines anyway.