Making Flaring Pain mandatory would be nice, but I'm not sure how to go about doing so - having it deal damage without a sweep effect is no good, for example.
How does Last Laugh work as a replacement for Arcbond? Arcbond allows the computation to halt when the Arcbond creature dies, but it seems like Last Laugh would either die early if Opalescence was in play, or never die if it wasn't. I suppose the computation can halt when Last Laugh runs out of triggers with a long enough stretch with nothing being put into the graveyard - do we have a way to control that?
I was thinking it could be required to get a trigger that would allow using or reusing things we need for building the rest of our board.
Last Laugh will have to stop eventually once any Bishops feeding it are dead, so we'd just need to make sure the output creatures can survive the aftermath. We could keep it from ending early with a simple A>A clock.
Looks like CaptainMarcia is working on making Last Laugh and Massacre Girl decks in the other thread. So what are the restrictions we face if we use those cards as substitutes for Arcbond?
The main restriction is that nothing is allowed to die without clearing our side of the battlefield of Xathrid Necromancers. Otherwise we can start illegal computations.
That includes damaged output creatures from previous computations, that die from getting their Coat of Arms buff removed via Artificial Evolution or bouncing the artifact. That restriction makes it almost impossible to use even for the small deck. Let alone in the context of a full 60 card combo.
Massacre Girl makes that restriction even more difficult to obey, by giving a -1/-1 to all creatures when she enters the battlefield.
Last Laugh comes with the additional restriction, that we must not be able to donate it to the opponent.
In my opinion the restrictions seem too harsh to work with.
Decks from that page and the page before seem to be using hyperstages alongside the two-Arcbond computations, although I don't know if those strategies still check out.
So looking at what we could possibly achieve, it looks like Spellweaver Volute is going to enable recasting of our instants without necessarily sweeping our side of the board, as I don't know of any flashback spells that sweep. Perhaps our enabling sorcery could be something that isn't flashback, but if we are to keep recasting the sweeper sorcery due to some mechanism we have in place, we would probably have a nonsweeper sorcery that we could recast as well. So this probably doesn't work.
Worldfire seems like it could work - the mechanism we had in place in the last deck, where Kaervek's Spite sent our permanents to the graveyard, and Worldfire sent our permanents to exile, and we could only bring cards from exile into the library, probably won't work because of Sanctifier en-Vec. But, we could still have Worldfire be the only/cheapest spell we have that can send our needed resource to the graveyard/exile (a land, for instance). So we could still use Spellweaver Helix for a stage tier.
For our previous gigastage attempts, we had tried to use Goblin Dark-Dwellers or Spell Queller for an extra stage tier. I don't know how feasible these are right now, but they were quite difficult to make work in the gigastage decks. I suppose we should first try to get a hyperstage deck going before we try to add another stage tier.
Edit: Actually, looking at our previous deck, Mox Ruby couldn't be sent into exile by Sanctifier en-Vec, since it doesn't have any color. So the Mox Ruby strategy could still work, I suppose.
Edit: I'm thinking Goblin Dark-Dwellers probably doesn't work, since it can cast Arcbond from the graveyard, but Spell Queller would just exile a spell on the stack, which wouldn't help Arcbond but could help a spell that can be copied (which I suppose would be a spell of mana value less than or equal to 2, assuming we use Sea Gate Stormcaller).
So looking at what we could possibly achieve, it looks like Spellweaver Volute is going to enable recasting of our instants without necessarily sweeping our side of the board, as I don't know of any flashback spells that sweep. Perhaps our enabling sorcery could be something that isn't flashback, but if we are to keep recasting the sweeper sorcery due to some mechanism we have in place, we would probably have a nonsweeper sorcery that we could recast as well. So this probably doesn't work.
Worldfire seems like it could work - the mechanism we had in place in the last deck, where Kaervek's Spite sent our permanents to the graveyard, and Worldfire sent our permanents to exile, and we could only bring cards from exile into the library, probably won't work because of Sanctifier en-Vec. But, we could still have Worldfire be the only/cheapest spell we have that can send our needed resource to the graveyard/exile (a land, for instance). So we could still use Spellweaver Helix for a stage tier.
For our previous gigastage attempts, we had tried to use Goblin Dark-Dwellers or Spell Queller for an extra stage tier. I don't know how feasible these are right now, but they were quite difficult to make work in the gigastage decks. I suppose we should first try to get a hyperstage deck going before we try to add another stage tier.
Edit: Actually, looking at our previous deck, Mox Ruby couldn't be sent into exile by Sanctifier en-Vec, since it doesn't have any color. So the Mox Ruby strategy could still work, I suppose.
Edit: I'm thinking Goblin Dark-Dwellers probably doesn't work, since it can cast Arcbond from the graveyard, but Spell Queller would just exile a spell on the stack, which wouldn't help Arcbond but could help a spell that can be copied (which I suppose would be a spell of mana value less than or equal to 2, assuming we use Sea Gate Stormcaller).
Is casting Arcbond from the graveyard a problem? Two Arcbond casts is fine if Comeuppance isn't in use, and exiling it without Worldfire isn't a problem since we'd have to deal with that either way.
After running some more experiments Im pretty sure flooding waterclocks are not TC,
I think there is be a hybrid computation using both bishop of wings and necromancer/reanimator with the tokens being distinguished by sanctifier, instead of with the extra dralnu's crusade type, but that runs into the issues with sanctifier's protection.
I also looked at a bunch of other TC approaches/tarpits/methods, like a tag system, or two linked PDAs, but they mostly seem either extremely impossible to implement, or impossible to force into a non-breaking configuration.
After running some more experiments Im pretty sure flooding waterclocks are not TC,
I think there is be a hybrid computation using both bishop of wings and necromancer/reanimator with the tokens being distinguished by sanctifier, instead of with the extra dralnu's crusade type, but that runs into the issues with sanctifier's protection.
I also looked at a bunch of other TC approaches/tarpits/methods, like a tag system, or two linked PDAs, but they mostly seem either extremely impossible to implement, or impossible to force into a non-breaking configuration.
We can work around protection by limiting ourselves to exactly two Arcbond casts, or one with Comeuppance, so there's no choices involved. I've been doing some work on that in the other thread, it's tricky but doable. (On the other hand, Last Laugh and Massacre Girl no longer seem practical.)
Do you think there's a possibility of getting TC computations by using Sephara, Sky's Blade to differentiate flying vs non-flying tokens?
Yeah Sephara maybe works but its a pretty different computational system because the flying tokens stick around forever so the clocks get longer and longer, and it seems difficult for such a system to be able to keep a halting clock from tripping for very long.
One thought: swapping coat of arms for sliver legion so we have to have a monotyped creature of every type we care about keeping alive?
I don't think it quite works, because we can just have a sliver legion of type A and break it with B->C A->B C->D D->A crusades like before.
It does allow for different types of flooding clock, as different clocks can have a different number of sliver legions pumping them. Even one without a boost, that always trips every tick. These don't seem super useful but this makes for strictly more versatile flooding clocks which maybe inches our way to being TC.
Yeah Sephara maybe works but its a pretty different computational system because the flying tokens stick around forever so the clocks get longer and longer, and it seems difficult for such a system to be able to keep a halting clock from tripping for very long.
One thought: swapping coat of arms for sliver legion so we have to have a monotyped creature of every type we care about keeping alive?
I don't think it quite works, because we can just have a sliver legion of type A and break it with B->C A->B C->D D->A crusades like before.
It does allow for different types of flooding clock, as different clocks can have a different number of sliver legions pumping them. Even one without a boost, that always trips every tick. These don't seem super useful but this makes for strictly more versatile flooding clocks which maybe inches our way to being TC.
Hmm. Could Life and Limb help, along with a basic land type changer? It would be limited by the five basic land types, and it would result in its own dependencies, but could it limit the possible configurations in any relevant way? It wouldn't allow for the same sorts of diagonals as Dralnu's Crusade.
life and limb letting us get easy green mana and preventing us from letting the opponent get haste probably ruins more than it saves compared to limiting arcbonds, though being able to trigger landfall for like scute swarm or rampaging baloths could be nice.
life and limb letting us get easy green mana and preventing us from letting the opponent get haste probably ruins more than it saves compared to limiting arcbonds, though being able to trigger landfall for like scute swarm or rampaging baloths could be nice.
Alongside a land type changer, it would be any color of mana, so probably not compatible with haste at all. I know the small decks could handle that, though, at least if the computations themselves work out.
Making typed tokens with landfall probably would not get along with this since it'd be easy to make it go infinite.
Hmm, what about Requiem angel?
It kind of looks like it makes a sort of “lazy” waterfall model, where the diagonal must be zero, as an X dying can’t make an X. (and waterclocks that are already at zero don’t trigger again)
Converting a normal waterfall program into requiem angels is a bit tricky, but looks possible.
Each clock needs three types now, A* which supports A’ and A”
The A’ angels makes an A” and the A*s, B*s, and C*s for the other clocks
The A” angels makes an A’ and the A*s, B*s, and C*s for the other clocks
With DCs set up so that the only type that is not an A’ is an A” and vice versa
This clearly behaves just like a normal water clock, just alternating between A’ and A” (edit: this is not actually clear, and is more complicated, but I think can still be made to work)
DCs make all of the * types into all of the ‘ and “ types
Each ‘ and “ type is chain DCed into all of the other ‘ and “ types except for their partner (and not the * types!). This causes loops which resolve via timestamps, thus we need the loops to be pretty carefully constructed so that A’ is not A” and vice versa. (I think we might have to also sacrifice one type per clock to be a DC timestamp gateway.) I think that forces us to make DCs to already be in a bunch of specific broken dependency loops?
Worst case in terms of types would require an intermediate type in each direction of each key type pair (to prevent B’ becoming B” through A’ being a B”)
We have like 280 types (thanks warhammer!) and that worst case still lets us make 8 full clocks (8*3+(8*2)*(8*2-1))=264 with a bunch of room left over.
Halting can be its own clock with a unique type as well, because it tripping ends computation.
Can we make the same B->C A->B C->D D->A broken loop? Yeah I think so because we have krrik as an AH and it can die by making a B.
What about lazy flooding clocks? I don’t think that gives us any more power and instead exasperates the problems with flooding clocks...
Hmm, what about Requiem angel?
It kind of looks like it makes a sort of “lazy” waterfall model, where the diagonal must be zero, as an X dying can’t make an X. (and waterclocks that are already at zero don’t trigger again)
Converting a normal waterfall program into requiem angels is a bit tricky, but looks possible.
Each clock needs three types now, A* which supports A’ and A”
The A’ angels makes an A” and the A*s, B*s, and C*s for the other clocks
The A” angels makes an A’ and the A*s, B*s, and C*s for the other clocks
With DCs set up so that the only type that is not an A’ is an A” and vice versa
This clearly behaves just like a normal water clock, just alternating between A’ and A” (edit: this is not actually clear, and is more complicated, but I think can still be made to work)
DCs make all of the * types into all of the ‘ and “ types
Each ‘ and “ type is chain DCed into all of the other ‘ and “ types except for their partner (and not the * types!). This causes loops which resolve via timestamps, thus we need the loops to be pretty carefully constructed so that A’ is not A” and vice versa. (I think we might have to also sacrifice one type per clock to be a DC timestamp gateway.) I think that forces us to make DCs to already be in a bunch of specific broken dependency loops?
Worst case in terms of types would require an intermediate type in each direction of each key type pair (to prevent B’ becoming B” through A’ being a B”)
We have like 280 types (thanks warhammer!) and that worst case still lets us make 8 full clocks (8*3+(8*2)*(8*2-1))=264 with a bunch of room left over.
Halting can be its own clock with a unique type as well, because it tripping ends computation.
Can we make the same B->C A->B C->D D->A broken loop? Yeah I think so because we have krrik as an AH and it can die by making a B.
What about lazy flooding clocks? I don’t think that gives us any more power and instead exasperates the problems with flooding clocks...
bleh, looks like a dead end.
Hmm, that's unfortunate.
Do the same broken loops apply with Life and Limb? I feel like the fact that it's two-directional might avoid the problem, but I'm not 100% sure.
Hmm yeah, I think the lack of direction for Life and Limb makes it not matter in what order the effects are applied. So that should stop the DC infinite.
Hmm yeah, I think the lack of direction for Life and Limb makes it not matter in what order the effects are applied. So that should stop the DC infinite.
If it made it not matter, that would be a problem, since it wouldn't allow for differentiating some of the creatures involved. My thinking is that it should always matter: like, if you have one Life and Limb with Saproling=Forest and another with Dryad=Forest, and any Saprolings and Dryads out, it would always have to go to timestamp order to determine whether the Saprolings become Dryads or the Dryads become Saprolings, regardless of the order of token creation. Does that make sense?
The other question is if it actually gives us enough, since there are only five basic land types and we want six waterclocks.
I think even though that looks workable, the consequences from losing every color of mana and basic land type for further comboing looks like it loses a lot of additional computation potential vs the alternative of using the sanctifier version with limited arcbond casts.
I think even though that looks workable, the consequences from losing every color of mana and basic land type for further comboing looks like it loses a lot of additional computation potential vs the alternative of using the sanctifier version with limited arcbond casts.
Does that mean it would be fine for the small deck, where that isn't an issue? I want to make sure we have a solid theory behind this before I start redoing the small deck and its writeup to use Life and Limb, especially with the limit of five basic land types.
(Also, we only produce colored mana this way if we actually have a way to get haste on the creatures involved.)
Yeah it looks like we would need to reduce the necessary required clocks to less than 6 for the plan to work. We're only one away, so it could be possible.
Yeah it looks like we would need to reduce the necessary required clocks to less than 6 for the plan to work. We're only one away, so it could be possible.
Is there something we could do to replace the sixth clock with other kinds of clocks? Either flooding ones, or the other kind from Sephara, Sky's Blade?
We would have to prove that the Waterfall Model with those clocks are still Turing-complete. (Probably by creating a universal machine with those clocks) Currently the universal machine requires 6 normal clocks and 1 output clock, and for the output clock we just need 1 creature type, no extra setup needed. So if we could replace one of the normal clocks by a flooding clock or an output clock, we would be in business.
Yeah but we can't emulate a normal clock with flooding clocks, if we could, then we'd just do that for all of the clocks and bam flooding only computation is TC.
The smallest known TC waterfall setup is fully described in the Spiral Rise wiki page https://esolangs.org/wiki/Spiral_Rise I don't see an obvious way of improving that, though I am not a good waterfall programmer.
Really what we need for flooding clocks is some way to shrink them down again, but I don't see any repeatable way to do that.
Another card that is close to working is Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver but it can only make the same type of token that just died, we can distinguish between Wilhelt and Xathrid necromacer tokens, but it doesn't seem useful yet....
ACTUALLY WAIT NEVERMIND I THINK I FIXED IT! Dread Slaver! I think this saves us!
we use our existing dual typed creature's cards as the clock's key creatures, for example:
rotlung (cleric zombie)
chancellor (phyrexian angel)
phabine (cat advisor)
veyran (efreet wizard)
yarok (elemental horror)
master transmuter (human artificer)
That's enough for 6 clocks + halting clock. We lose a cardslot to give dread slaver lifelink (not sure what the best card for this would be), but that's clearly worth it.
EDIT: blehhh this fails if the opponent can start resolving arcbond triggers from other creatures... well this is still fewer cards lost for this deck than the sanctifier fix.
Yeah but we can't emulate a normal clock with flooding clocks, if we could, then we'd just do that for all of the clocks and bam flooding only computation is TC.
The smallest known TC waterfall setup is fully described in the Spiral Rise wiki page https://esolangs.org/wiki/Spiral_Rise I don't see an obvious way of improving that, though I am not a good waterfall programmer.
Really what we need for flooding clocks is some way to shrink them down again, but I don't see any repeatable way to do that.
Another card that is close to working is Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver but it can only make the same type of token that just died, we can distinguish between Wilhelt and Xathrid necromacer tokens, but it doesn't seem useful yet....
ACTUALLY WAIT NEVERMIND I THINK I FIXED IT! Dread Slaver! I think this saves us!
we use our existing dual typed creature's cards as the clock's key creatures, for example:
rotlung (cleric zombie)
chancellor (phyrexian angel)
phabine (cat advisor)
veyran (efreet wizard)
yarok (elemental horror)
master transmuter (human artificer)
That's enough for 6 clocks + halting clock. We lose a cardslot to give dread slaver lifelink (not sure what the best card for this would be), but that's clearly worth it.
EDIT: blehhh this fails if the opponent can start resolving arcbond triggers from other creatures... well this is still fewer cards lost for this deck than the sanctifier fix.
I looked at Dread Slaver last night, as well as a few other options like Luminous Broodmoth for getting back arbitrary creatures, but I think they all run into the problem of letting us break computation by reviving a Bishop onto our own side of the field.
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Last Laugh will have to stop eventually once any Bishops feeding it are dead, so we'd just need to make sure the output creatures can survive the aftermath. We could keep it from ending early with a simple A>A clock.
That includes damaged output creatures from previous computations, that die from getting their Coat of Arms buff removed via Artificial Evolution or bouncing the artifact. That restriction makes it almost impossible to use even for the small deck. Let alone in the context of a full 60 card combo.
Massacre Girl makes that restriction even more difficult to obey, by giving a -1/-1 to all creatures when she enters the battlefield.
Last Laugh comes with the additional restriction, that we must not be able to donate it to the opponent.
In my opinion the restrictions seem too harsh to work with.
These are rough, but I'm not sure Arcbond is any better. Either way, we have to be really careful about what we can recur.
Decks from that page and the page before seem to be using hyperstages alongside the two-Arcbond computations, although I don't know if those strategies still check out.
Worldfire seems like it could work - the mechanism we had in place in the last deck, where Kaervek's Spite sent our permanents to the graveyard, and Worldfire sent our permanents to exile, and we could only bring cards from exile into the library, probably won't work because of Sanctifier en-Vec. But, we could still have Worldfire be the only/cheapest spell we have that can send our needed resource to the graveyard/exile (a land, for instance). So we could still use Spellweaver Helix for a stage tier.
For our previous gigastage attempts, we had tried to use Goblin Dark-Dwellers or Spell Queller for an extra stage tier. I don't know how feasible these are right now, but they were quite difficult to make work in the gigastage decks. I suppose we should first try to get a hyperstage deck going before we try to add another stage tier.
Edit: Actually, looking at our previous deck, Mox Ruby couldn't be sent into exile by Sanctifier en-Vec, since it doesn't have any color. So the Mox Ruby strategy could still work, I suppose.
Edit: I'm thinking Goblin Dark-Dwellers probably doesn't work, since it can cast Arcbond from the graveyard, but Spell Queller would just exile a spell on the stack, which wouldn't help Arcbond but could help a spell that can be copied (which I suppose would be a spell of mana value less than or equal to 2, assuming we use Sea Gate Stormcaller).
I think there is be a hybrid computation using both bishop of wings and necromancer/reanimator with the tokens being distinguished by sanctifier, instead of with the extra dralnu's crusade type, but that runs into the issues with sanctifier's protection.
I also looked at a bunch of other TC approaches/tarpits/methods, like a tag system, or two linked PDAs, but they mostly seem either extremely impossible to implement, or impossible to force into a non-breaking configuration.
Do you think there's a possibility of getting TC computations by using Sephara, Sky's Blade to differentiate flying vs non-flying tokens?
One thought: swapping coat of arms for sliver legion so we have to have a monotyped creature of every type we care about keeping alive?
I don't think it quite works, because we can just have a sliver legion of type A and break it with B->C A->B C->D D->A crusades like before.
It does allow for different types of flooding clock, as different clocks can have a different number of sliver legions pumping them. Even one without a boost, that always trips every tick. These don't seem super useful but this makes for strictly more versatile flooding clocks which maybe inches our way to being TC.
Making typed tokens with landfall probably would not get along with this since it'd be easy to make it go infinite.
It kind of looks like it makes a sort of “lazy” waterfall model, where the diagonal must be zero, as an X dying can’t make an X. (and waterclocks that are already at zero don’t trigger again)
Converting a normal waterfall program into requiem angels is a bit tricky, but looks possible.
Each clock needs three types now, A* which supports A’ and A”
The A’ angels makes an A” and the A*s, B*s, and C*s for the other clocks
The A” angels makes an A’ and the A*s, B*s, and C*s for the other clocks
With DCs set up so that the only type that is not an A’ is an A” and vice versa
This clearly behaves just like a normal water clock, just alternating between A’ and A” (edit: this is not actually clear, and is more complicated, but I think can still be made to work)
DCs make all of the * types into all of the ‘ and “ types
Each ‘ and “ type is chain DCed into all of the other ‘ and “ types except for their partner (and not the * types!). This causes loops which resolve via timestamps, thus we need the loops to be pretty carefully constructed so that A’ is not A” and vice versa. (I think we might have to also sacrifice one type per clock to be a DC timestamp gateway.) I think that forces us to make DCs to already be in a bunch of specific broken dependency loops?
Worst case in terms of types would require an intermediate type in each direction of each key type pair (to prevent B’ becoming B” through A’ being a B”)
We have like 280 types (thanks warhammer!) and that worst case still lets us make 8 full clocks (8*3+(8*2)*(8*2-1))=264 with a bunch of room left over.
Halting can be its own clock with a unique type as well, because it tripping ends computation.
Can we make the same B->C A->B C->D D->A broken loop? Yeah I think so because we have krrik as an AH and it can die by making a B.
What about lazy flooding clocks? I don’t think that gives us any more power and instead exasperates the problems with flooding clocks...
bleh, looks like a dead end.
Do the same broken loops apply with Life and Limb? I feel like the fact that it's two-directional might avoid the problem, but I'm not 100% sure.
The other question is if it actually gives us enough, since there are only five basic land types and we want six waterclocks.
(Also, we only produce colored mana this way if we actually have a way to get haste on the creatures involved.)
The smallest known TC waterfall setup is fully described in the Spiral Rise wiki page https://esolangs.org/wiki/Spiral_Rise I don't see an obvious way of improving that, though I am not a good waterfall programmer.
Really what we need for flooding clocks is some way to shrink them down again, but I don't see any repeatable way to do that.
Another card that is close to working is Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver but it can only make the same type of token that just died, we can distinguish between Wilhelt and Xathrid necromacer tokens, but it doesn't seem useful yet....
ACTUALLY WAIT NEVERMIND I THINK I FIXED IT!
Dread Slaver! I think this saves us!
we use our existing dual typed creature's cards as the clock's key creatures, for example:
rotlung (cleric zombie)
chancellor (phyrexian angel)
phabine (cat advisor)
veyran (efreet wizard)
yarok (elemental horror)
master transmuter (human artificer)
That's enough for 6 clocks + halting clock. We lose a cardslot to give dread slaver lifelink (not sure what the best card for this would be), but that's clearly worth it.
EDIT: blehhh this fails if the opponent can start resolving arcbond triggers from other creatures... well this is still fewer cards lost for this deck than the sanctifier fix.