Hmm, are we going to allow Karn Liberated to be used in this challenge? The detailed rules from the various writeups don't say anything about whether restarting the game via Karn Liberated is allowed. By the letter of the law, I guess that would make it legal, since we would still technically be in the first turn of a game. I don't know though, it seems to be against the spirit of the challenge, since you could exile nearly all the cards in the deck, so you would basically be starting the game with nearly everything on the battlefield already. It makes getting started seem less impressive. SadisticMystic and Iijil, what say you?
For the current deck, Karn Liberated doesn't actually seem to help; we still need something like Island / Mana Crypt / Show and Tell to get either Omniscience or Karn Liberated onto the battlefield, which we need to do at some point. And Selvala's Enforcer is a very efficient card for drawing out our entire deck. But maybe it could be used for the deck with sideboard challenge, since we seem to need to switch from Dual Nature / Changeling Berserker to Splinter Twin / Crown of the Ages to avoid mooting a color during the hyperstage.
If Karn restarts the game, the original game comes to an end entirely, and with it the key turn you're trying to measure. You may still end up in a so-called "turn 1" of the restarted game, but it's not actually the same turn, so using Karn would be completely wasteful. (The planeswalker version, anyway; the original creature version does have niches where it fits in.)
That loses a stage, but it should still generate F_{w^2 + w19 + 3}(X) damage, where X is something small like 6 or 7.
As you can see, there's enough room for another two-card stage, but we seem to be out of obvious available stages. Switching to Splinter Twin / Crown of the Ages would free up a color.
When we do it like that we can't get a land back with Life from the Loam, since we only destroy it with the Obliterate right before it. We can't get Psychic Battles in between those two casts as they are put on the stack during the resolution of a single Eye of the Storm trigger.
We could use something like Caravan Vigil instead, but then we also need a way to move the land from graveyard to library.
Hmm, that's problematic. Welp, we do have a slot or two available, so we can use a slot to add something like Reito Lantern or Emrakul the Aeons Torn, going back to the Karlov of the Ghost Council ending. I will keep on the lookout for something better.
EDIT #1: To make Skull of Orm work, I suppose we can use an Enchant Enchantment card like Steal Enchantment. Unfortunately, the casting of Steal Enchantment doesn't destroy or bounce the target, so it doesn't eliminate the second Opalescence, so we don't get any actual savings.
EDIT #3: So, I was considering replacing Mirrorworks with Dual Nature, so that we could flicker Titania, Protector of Argoth. Unfortunately, it seems to go infinite; we can flicker Mana Crypt for mana, destroy a Psychic Battle, imprint it on Mimic Vat and make a copy, put it back in the graveyard with Mirror of Fate and Ambassador Laquatus, and then bring it back to the battlefield with Skull of Orm. Then we can flicker the various artifacts to restore things back to the original position, but with one more Psychic Battle.
Perhaps we can remove Skull of Orm, and keep the Dual Nature / Changeling Berserker combo, but keeping the Changeling Berserker as a stage creature. But we would need some way to make progress with Rust Tick, presumably by targeting enchantments somehow. I'm still not seeing a way to do that.
I just found an infinite in this new type of build: Blinkmoth Infusion untaps Mimic Vat which can have all sorts of things imprinted. For example Viashino Fangtail, a token of which can then easily get back the blue mana that was needed to cast the Infusion and a lot more. So we just skip casting Obliterate and reuse that Mimic Vat as often as we want.
I don't think we can replace Mimic Vat. So to salvage this we would need a narrower untap card, as untapping high level creatures obviously leads to the same problem. So I don't know what we can do here. Optimally we would have an instant that untaps only artifact creatures. Maybe we can set up a trigger chain?
If we have that I think we can actually get two hyperstages going: Use a mox + colored sorcery + Spellweaver Volute + Blinkmoth Infusion + Retract + Rust tick for the first hyperstage. You have to be unable to reuse the mox without bouncing it via Retract. Presumably removing all anthem effects and ways to get it out of the graveyard is a good starting point for that. And we would need to work out the exact setup that allows you to reuse the Volute for one untap and one bounce per sorcery card, but that seems doable. Then we can use land + colored sorcery with duplicate + Spellweaver Helix + Obliterate + Gelectrode for the second hyperstage.
Obviously there is a lot more to work out there, but most of it seems doable if we could untap just artifact creatures.
Hmm, untapping just artifact creatures? That sounds tough. Voltaic Construct untaps artifact creatures, but it seems to at-will. Same for say Arcbound Worker + Sinking Feeling. Triggering Cowardice isn't going to work since we need this to work on token artifact creatures. So I guess what we want is a version of Cowardice that untaps...
A problem I'm seeing with the double hyperstage construction is that Gelectrode untaps from the first sorcery, so if there is a way for Gelectrode to link into the first hyperstage, it goes infinite. But maybe we can go back to Kaho, Minamo Historian, and maybe have the stage transition be triggered off a certain color like in the initial build.
tstorm823: Hmm, I dunno about Lich's Mirror. As you've pointed out, the problem is making progress without going infinite. Using up a start of turn or phase trigger would likely mean that we can only use the Lich's Mirror a few times. In our latest decks, we've needed to be able to bring back exiled cards for the hyperstage (although we do have combos that can enact a stage without bringing back any cards from exile, for example using cards like Skirge Familiar to generate mana), so we can't use exiling as a one-way ticket anymore. If we can, that's still only a small number of repititions of Lich's Mirror. So it would have to have each Lich's Mirror be very powerful to set a record (Each one would need to be worth a new hyperstage, or maybe an activation of a hyperhyperstage for example.).
It could be more than a few. For example, if the full process requires green mana and the sources of green are Elvish Spirit Guide and Sakiko, Mother of Summer, you could get into Knuth necessary numbers precombat and crank out a one time reservoir of green to work with. Though, that all is fairly useless depending on what qualifies as a small number.
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I'm not quite clear on how that works. For example, if you are using Elvish Spirit Guide to get green mana, and have now way to get cards out of exile, then you can get one green mana from a particular Elvish Spirit Guide and that's it. If you do have a way to get Elvish Spirit Guide out of exile without having to spend the green mana, then you can get a green mana and then reset the game. Repeating the process would seem to get you unlimited green mana.
Hmm, untapping just artifact creatures? That sounds tough. Voltaic Construct untaps artifact creatures, but it seems to at-will. Same for say Arcbound Worker + Sinking Feeling. Triggering Cowardice isn't going to work since we need this to work on token artifact creatures. So I guess what we want is a version of Cowardice that untaps...
A problem I'm seeing with the double hyperstage construction is that Gelectrode untaps from the first sorcery, so if there is a way for Gelectrode to link into the first hyperstage, it goes infinite. But maybe we can go back to Kaho, Minamo Historian, and maybe have the stage transition be triggered off a certain color like in the initial build.
To be honest, I didn't think about the Gelectrode part that much yet. We can probably use a sorcery that untaps all creatures with some regular self targeting creature there. The important thing is that we potentially have two different ways to trigger the transition, both putting a copy of some spell on the stack that replenishes a rare resource, but with the weaker one not being able to also cast the more powerful spell. What's still missing is the weaker stage transition also replenishing its own internal Ackermannstage resource.
A possible idea: Magnetic Flux gives artifact creatures flying. Can we do anything with that? Unfortunately, I don't see anything that untaps flying creatures either. We could cast Hurricane to damage flying creatures, but I don't see any way to turn damage or destruction into an untap. Well, except for one: Rite of Passage combined with Sinking Feeling. To make that work, we need all of our stage creatures to have 1 toughness, I think. That should be no problem for the second stage, but for the first one, I didn't see any artifact creature that targeted artifacts and had 1 toughness. Except for Coretapper, but unfortunately it can also sacrifice itself.
I think we can do it: Metallurgeon as creature for the smaller stage, getting untapped by Battle Cry. That untap should easily be narrow enough and doesn't even make any sort of problems with untapping the mox or mimic vat.
Awesome! Okay, now for the details: we need to tap a mox to cast a sorcery, and somehow that has to trigger the casting of two instants. Perhaps two Spellweaver Volutes? Then we need to recycle the Volutes somehow. Can we do the following: When one Volute trigger is resolved, it exiles the instant, and moves the Volute to the other instant. We respond by putting the instant back in the library and then milling it. Then we resolve the second Volute trigger, and we move the second Volute onto the first instant. Then we move the second instant back to the graveyard. That seems to work, no?
EDIT: No, that doesn't work, since the first Volute will fall off the second instant when it changes zones. Not too big a deal, we just need a way to fetch enchantments, like Skull of Orm.
EDIT: Hmm, using Snapcaster Mage or Bosium Strip seems not to work, since we need to have white mana available at the stage level, and then we could use that white mana to cast Battle Cry too easily. So perhaps some way to recycle sorceries but not instants. But, we need to not be able to cast the higher sorceries too easily as well. So, some way to recycle sorceries but not instants, and we still need to pay the mana costs. Doable?
The next question is, how to deal with Mirror of Fate. We can't have Mirrorworks anymore, since that could copy the Mox. We could also go Dual Nature / March of the Machines, but I think March of the Machines would interfere with the Mox.
If we have no anthem and nothing to recover artifacts from the graveyard March of the Machines should be fine. We can't use Mana Crypt but that's easy to replace. The Mox only needs to be on the battlefield right before we bounce it, the rest of the time we can keep it in the hand, so bouncing the March of the Machines at that point shouldn't be a problem.
Ah, nice deck. Thanks for putting a list together.
Of course there are some things to improve:
Rust Tick goes infinite due to cross targeting with Metallurgeon. We can just cut the Rust Tick as far as I can tell.
Gold Myr seems too hard to use to get the white, since it needs haste. Tooth of Ramos seems better. Requires some March of the Machines bouncing to use, but that is a lot cheaper than using Mimic Vat to create Gold Myr tokens.
We can't use Mana Crypt for colorless mana. As if we can reuse that we can also reuse Mox Jet. I don't know if we need an extra source of colorless for the operations at the bottom or if the white source would be enough. After a quick look I don't see any way to get enough mana to keep functioning there so we will probably need to add a card, unless I'm missing something?
Winter Blast was supposed to be aided by something that gave creatures flying, but I forgot.
Hmm, will a targeting sorcery go infinite? We need to cast Obliterate to get our mana back, so that's one of the spells copied using Spellweaver Helix. If we resolve Fireball first, there's no problem. So I guess the issue is if Fireball is resolved after Obliterate. The board is cleared, but we can put down a Viashino Fangtail and a Mimic Vat, and target it with the Fireball. That can get us a hasted Viashino Fangtail. Is that enough to go infinite? I'm not sure.
But anyway, I forgot about getting extra stages using protection. So here is a third attempt:
Insurrection is about as dangerous as a targeting sorcery as it can give the replayed Viashino haste after Obliterate. Also not sure if that's infinite.
Caravan Vigil + the fourth copy of the sorcery won't work to get the land back: From a single cast we can only have one of the Spellweaver Helix copies of a spell on the stack at any time, since we need to resolve the stack down to the trigger to convert that. We can resolve the untap spell and then convert obliterate, but the Caravan Vigil trigger will either have no effect if we moved the card out of exile before we get there, or we can't use the vigil in any lower stage transitions.
Hmm, I'm not quite understanding. Why don't we just immediately resolve the Caravan Vigil trigger right after the Obliterate takes effect? The transition to the lower stages happens by resolving the Insurrection trigger and leaving the Obliterate trigger on the stack, and the Caravan Vigil just stays put.
First we resolve the trigger of the Helix that has Insurrection imprinted. We put a copy of insurrection on the stack. We resolve Insurrection to refresh our Viashino tokens.
Next we resolve the trigger of the Helix that has Obliterate imprinted. We put a copy of Obliterate on the stack. At this point we want to leave it there as a marker and only resolve it after going through a lot of other stage transitions.
We still have the third Spellweaver Helix trigger on the stack. At the moment that Helix has Caravan Vigil imprinted, but we are currently not in the lowest Ackermann stage of this Hyperstage so we want to resolve a few obliterates and put new Caravan Vigil's on the stack when going back and forth between lower Ackermann stages. To do that we eventually need to imprint Caravan Vigil on another Helix, long before we come back to the current stage transition with the Obliterate and the one Helix trigger on the stack. If we moved the Caravan Vigil card out of exile with the trigger on the stack we get no copy.
We can use a single Helix and put the initial set of transitions on the stack all the way down from the highest to lowest stage, as at that point the Helix doesn't get destroyed, and if we don't move the Vigil card otherwise, each of the triggers should give us a copy of the spell. But due to the back and forth nature of our jumping between stages we want to put new stage transitions on the stack before we go up completely.
I see... it's because the Spellweaver Helixes keep getting destroyed, so we have to keep updating the Helixes.
What if we resolve the Caravan Vigil before Obliterate? So the Island stays in the graveyard/library most of the time, and only pops onto the battlefield for a moment, where we tap it for mana, and then it gets destroyed.
Getting back to the ending sequence - I would like to go back to our earlier construction that used Night Dealings, but right now I'm not sure what to fetch with it. We can't use Elvish Guidance anymore because of Skull of Orm. I suppose that we could always fetch something like Reality Spasm, but that moots any lands higher up. Any ideas?
For the current deck, Karn Liberated doesn't actually seem to help; we still need something like Island / Mana Crypt / Show and Tell to get either Omniscience or Karn Liberated onto the battlefield, which we need to do at some point. And Selvala's Enforcer is a very efficient card for drawing out our entire deck. But maybe it could be used for the deck with sideboard challenge, since we seem to need to switch from Dual Nature / Changeling Berserker to Splinter Twin / Crown of the Ages to avoid mooting a color during the hyperstage.
2 Psychic Battle
3 Cowardice
4 Horobi, Death's Wail
5 Bloodbond March
6 Cephalid Shrine
7 Mana Crypt
8 Mimic Vat
9 Omniscience
10 Leyline of Anticipation
11 Mirror of Fate
12 Chrome Mox
13 Dual Nature
14 Changeling Berserker
15 Assembly-Worker
16 March of the Machines
17 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
18 Opalescence
19 Eye of the Storm
20 Blinkmoth Insurrection
21 Obliterate
22 Show and Tell
23 Island
24 Titania, Protector of Argoth
25 Bosium Strip
27 Labyrinth Minotaur
28 Anaba Ancestor
29 Rend Spirit
30 Putrid Raptor
31 Krosan Groundshaker
32 Merfolk of the Depths
33 Merfolk Sovereign
34 Seahunter
35 Mercenary Informer
36 Boreal Griffin
37 Boreal Druid
38 Ohran Yeti
39 Everglove Courier
40 Nectar Faerie
41 Ghosthelm Courier
42 Possessed Aven
43 Grassland Crusader
44 Possessed Nomad
45 Shauku's Minion
46 Centaur Archer
47 Maze Glider
49 Devout Chaplain
50 Royal Assassin
51 Goblin Tunneler
52 Flamestick Courier
53 Dralnu's Crusade
54 Frightshroud Courier
55 Paragon of Open Graves
56 Viashino Fangtail
57 Drowner of Secrets
58 Korozda Gorgon
59 Corpsejack Menace
60 Selvala's Enforcer
2 Psychic Battle
3 Cowardice
4 Horobi, Death's Wail
5 Bloodbond March
6 Cephalid Shrine
7 Mana Crypt
8 Mimic Vat
9 Omniscience
10 Leyline of Anticipation
11 Mirror of Fate
12 Chrome Mox
13 Dual Nature
14 Changeling Berserker
15 Assembly-Worker
16 March of the Machines
17 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
18 Opalescence
19 Eye of the Storm
20 Blinkmoth Insurrection
21 Obliterate
22 Show and Tell
23 Island
24 Titania, Protector of Argoth
25 Bosium Strip
27 Broodstar
28 Krosan Groundshaker
29 Everbark Shaman
30 Black Poplar Shaman
31 Hollowsage
32 Merfolk Sovereign
33 Seahunter
34 Mercenary Informer
35 Boreal Griffin
36 Boreal Druid
37 Ohran Yeti
38 Everglove Courier
39 Nectar Faerie
40 Ghosthelm Courier
41 Possessed Aven
42 Grassland Crusader
43 Possessed Nomad
44 Shauku's Minion
45 Centaur Archer
46 Maze Glider
48 Devout Chaplain
49 Royal Assassin
50 Goblin Tunneler
51 Flamestick Courier
52 Dralnu's Crusade
53 Frightshroud Courier
54 Paragon of Open Graves
55 Viashino Fangtail
56 Drowner of Secrets
57 Korozda Gorgon
58 Archangel of Thune
59 Horizon Chimera
60 Selvala's Enforcer
That loses a stage, but it should still generate F_{w^2 + w19 + 3}(X) damage, where X is something small like 6 or 7.
As you can see, there's enough room for another two-card stage, but we seem to be out of obvious available stages. Switching to Splinter Twin / Crown of the Ages would free up a color.
EDIT: A first attempt with Splinter Twin. Going back to Drownyard Temple for the land, with Deep Water to make it produce blue mana.
2 Psychic Battle
3 Cowardice
4 Horobi, Death's Wail
5 Bloodbond March
6 Cephalid Shrine
7 Mana Crypt
8 Mimic Vat
9 Omniscience
10 Leyline of Anticipation
11 Mirror of Fate
12 Chrome Mox
13 Splinter Twin
14 Crown of the Ages
15 Karn, Silver Golem
16 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
17 Mirrorworks
18 Opalescence
19 Eye of the Storm
20 Blinkmoth Insurrection
21 Obliterate
22 Show and Tell
23 Deep Water
24 Drownyard Temple
25 Bosium Strip
27 Broodstar
28 Krosan Groundshaker
29 Everbark Shaman
30 Black Poplar Shaman
31 Irini Sengir
32 Dwarf Lieutenant
33 Jori En, Ruin Diver
34 Merfolk Sovereign
35 Seahunter
36 Mercenary Informer
37 Boreal Griffin
38 Boreal Druid
39 Ohran Yeti
40 Everglove Courier
41 Nectar Faerie
42 Ghosthelm Courier
43 Possessed Aven
44 Grassland Crusader
46 Shauku's Minion
47 Centaur Archer
48 Maze Glider
49 Paragon of Eternal Wilds
50 Devout Chaplain
51 Royal Assassin
52 Goblin Tunneler
53 Flamestick Courier
54 Dralnu's Crusade
55 Frightshroud Courier
56 Paragon of Open Graves
57 Viashino Fangtail
58 Drowner of Secrets
That gets up to 20 stages, but we have only 2 card slots left; not sure yet what to put in to get started.
EDIT #2: Hmm, we no longer have Amulet of Vigor to untap Drownyard Temple, so replace Drownyard Temple and Deep Water with Life from the Loam and Island. When we cast Show and Tell, we resolve the spells in following order: Blinkmoth Infusion, Obliterate, Life from the Loam, Show and Tell.
EDIT #3: I think we can shave off one card if we start from green mana (casting Life from the Loam), allowing us to stick Ambassador Laquatus in as one of the transition creatures. This allows a three card finish. Karlov of the Ghost Council / Horizon Chimera / Wheel of Fortune seems decent; unfortunately, Karlov of the Ghost Council is legendary, and we don't have Mirror Gallery, so Karlov is not worth a layer.
2 Psychic Battle
3 Cowardice
4 Horobi, Death's Wail
5 Bloodbond March
6 Cephalid Shrine
7 Mana Crypt
8 Mimic Vat
9 Omniscience
10 Leyline of Anticipation
11 Mirror of Fate
12 Chrome Mox
13 Splinter Twin
14 Crown of the Ages
15 Karn, Silver Golem
16 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
17 Mirrorworks
18 Opalescence
19 Eye of the Storm
20 Blinkmoth Insurrection
21 Obliterate
22 Show and Tell
23 Life from the Loam
24 Forest
25 Bosium Strip
27 Everbark Shaman
28 Black Poplar Shaman
29 Irini Sengir
30 Dwarf Lieutenant
31 red morph creature
32 Weaver of Lies
33 Ambassador Laquatus
34 Merfolk Sovereign
35 Seahunter
36 Mercenary Informer
37 Boreal Griffin
38 Boreal Druid
39 Ohran Yeti
40 Everglove Courier
41 Nectar Faerie
42 Ghosthelm Courier
43 Possessed Aven
44 Grassland Crusader
45 Possessed Nomad
47 Centaur Archer
48 Maze Glider
49 Paragon of Eternal Wilds
50 Devout Chaplain
51 Royal Assassin
52 Goblin Tunneler
53 Flamestick Courier
54 Dralnu's Crusade
55 Frightshroud Courier
56 Paragon of Open Graves
57 Viashino Fangtail
58 Karlov of the Ghost Council
59 Horizon Chimera
60 Wheel of Fortune
Should get around F_{w^2 + w20 + 1)(X) where X is like 2.
EDIT #4: Switching the start to red mana save yet another card. So we can get a four card finish, although we must use a red sorcery/instant.
2 Psychic Battle
3 Cowardice
4 Horobi, Death's Wail
5 Bloodbond March
6 Cephalid Shrine
7 Mana Crypt
8 Mimic Vat
9 Omniscience
10 Leyline of Anticipation
11 Mirror of Fate
12 Chrome Mox
13 Splinter Twin
14 Crown of the Ages
15 Karn, Silver Golem
16 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
17 Mirrorworks
18 Opalescence
19 Eye of the Storm
20 Blinkmoth Insurrection
21 Obliterate
22 Show and Tell
23 Life from the Loam
24 Wheel of Fortune
25 Mountain
26 Bosium Strip
28 Changeling Berserker
29 Black Poplar Shaman
30 Putrid Raptor
31 Snarling Undorak
32 Weaver of Lies
33 Ambassador Laquatus
34 Merfolk Sovereign
35 Seahunter
36 Mercenary Informer
37 Boreal Griffin
38 Boreal Druid
39 Ohran Yeti
40 Everglove Courier
41 Nectar Faerie
42 Ghosthelm Courier
43 Possessed Aven
44 Grassland Crusader
45 Possessed Nomad
46 Shauku's Minion
47 Centaur Archer
48 Maze Glider
50 Devout Chaplain
51 Royal Assassin
52 Goblin Tunneler
53 Flamestick Courier
54 Dralnu's Crusade
55 Frightshroud Courier
56 Paragon of Open Graves
57 Viashino Fangtail
58 Korozda Gorgon
59 Archangel of Thune
60 Horizon Chimera
Gets roughly F_{w^2 + w20 + 3}(2).
EDIT #5: It would be nice to use Skull of Orm to replace Splinter Twin, Crown of the Ages, and possibly the second Opalescence. But, if we do make this change we need some way to produce more Psychic Battles at the bottom. I don't see an obvious way that doesn't use up a color; the closest things that I see are Dispeller's Capsule, Elf Replica, Arenson's Aura, and Teferi's Care, but they all require a color to use them. Aura Fracture would allow the sacrifice of a land, which we can't do. Tattoo Ward looked promising, but unfortunately it targets when we cast it.
Anyone have any ideas?
We could use something like Caravan Vigil instead, but then we also need a way to move the land from graveyard to library.
EDIT #1: To make Skull of Orm work, I suppose we can use an Enchant Enchantment card like Steal Enchantment. Unfortunately, the casting of Steal Enchantment doesn't destroy or bounce the target, so it doesn't eliminate the second Opalescence, so we don't get any actual savings.
2 Psychic Battle
3 Cowardice
4 Horobi, Death's Wail
5 Bloodbond March
6 Cephalid Shrine
7 Mana Crypt
8 Mimic Vat
9 Omniscience
10 Leyline of Anticipation
11 Mirror of Fate
12 Chrome Mox
13 Skull of Orm
14 Karn, Silver Golem
15 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
16 Mirrorworks
17 Steal Enchantment
18 Opalescence
19 Eye of the Storm
20 Blinkmoth Insurrection
21 Obliterate
22 Show and Tell
23 Caravan Vigil
24 Wheel of Fortune
25 Mountain
26 Bosium Strip
28 Changeling Berserker
29 Black Poplar Shaman
30 Putrid Defiler
31 Snarling Undorak
32 Weaver of Lies
33 Ambassador Laquatus
34 Merfolk Sovereign
35 Seahunter
36 Mercenary Informer
37 Boreal Griffin
38 Boreal Druid
39 Ohran Yeti
40 Everglove Courier
41 Nectar Faerie
42 Ghosthelm Courier
43 Possessed Aven
44 Grassland Crusader
45 Possessed Nomad
46 Shauku's Minion
47 Centaur Archer
48 Maze Glider
50 Devout Chaplain
51 Royal Assassin
52 Goblin Tunneler
53 Flamestick Courier
54 Dralnu's Crusade
55 Frightshroud Courier
56 Paragon of Open Graves
57 Viashino Fangtail
58 Emrakul the Aeons Torn
59 Karlov of the Ghost Council
60 Horizon Sphinx
EDIT #2: I think Auratog will work to send enchantments to the graveyard, allowing us to go back to the Archangel of Thune ending.
2 Psychic Battle
3 Cowardice
4 Horobi, Death's Wail
5 Bloodbond March
6 Cephalid Shrine
7 Mana Crypt
8 Mimic Vat
9 Omniscience
10 Leyline of Anticipation
11 Mirror of Fate
12 Chrome Mox
13 Skull of Orm
14 Karn, Silver Golem
15 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
16 Mirrorworks
17 Auratog
18 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
19 Eye of the Storm
20 Blinkmoth Insurrection
21 Obliterate
22 Show and Tell
23 Caravan Vigil
24 Wheel of Fortune
25 Mountain
26 Bosium Strip
28 Changeling Berserker
29 Black Poplar Shaman
30 Putrid Defiler
31 Snarling Undorak
32 Weaver of Lies
33 Ambassador Laquatus
34 Merfolk Sovereign
35 Seahunter
36 Mercenary Informer
37 Boreal Griffin
38 Boreal Druid
39 Ohran Yeti
40 Everglove Courier
41 Nectar Faerie
42 Ghosthelm Courier
43 Possessed Aven
44 Grassland Crusader
45 Possessed Nomad
46 Shauku's Minion
47 Centaur Archer
48 Maze Glider
50 Devout Chaplain
51 Royal Assassin
52 Goblin Tunneler
53 Flamestick Courier
54 Dralnu's Crusade
55 Frightshroud Courier
56 Paragon of Open Graves
57 Viashino Fangtail
58 Korozda Gorgon
59 Archangel of Thune
60 Horizon Sphinx
EDIT #3: So, I was considering replacing Mirrorworks with Dual Nature, so that we could flicker Titania, Protector of Argoth. Unfortunately, it seems to go infinite; we can flicker Mana Crypt for mana, destroy a Psychic Battle, imprint it on Mimic Vat and make a copy, put it back in the graveyard with Mirror of Fate and Ambassador Laquatus, and then bring it back to the battlefield with Skull of Orm. Then we can flicker the various artifacts to restore things back to the original position, but with one more Psychic Battle.
Perhaps we can remove Skull of Orm, and keep the Dual Nature / Changeling Berserker combo, but keeping the Changeling Berserker as a stage creature. But we would need some way to make progress with Rust Tick, presumably by targeting enchantments somehow. I'm still not seeing a way to do that.
I don't think we can replace Mimic Vat. So to salvage this we would need a narrower untap card, as untapping high level creatures obviously leads to the same problem. So I don't know what we can do here. Optimally we would have an instant that untaps only artifact creatures. Maybe we can set up a trigger chain?
If we have that I think we can actually get two hyperstages going: Use a mox + colored sorcery + Spellweaver Volute + Blinkmoth Infusion + Retract + Rust tick for the first hyperstage. You have to be unable to reuse the mox without bouncing it via Retract. Presumably removing all anthem effects and ways to get it out of the graveyard is a good starting point for that. And we would need to work out the exact setup that allows you to reuse the Volute for one untap and one bounce per sorcery card, but that seems doable. Then we can use land + colored sorcery with duplicate + Spellweaver Helix + Obliterate + Gelectrode for the second hyperstage.
Obviously there is a lot more to work out there, but most of it seems doable if we could untap just artifact creatures.
A problem I'm seeing with the double hyperstage construction is that Gelectrode untaps from the first sorcery, so if there is a way for Gelectrode to link into the first hyperstage, it goes infinite. But maybe we can go back to Kaho, Minamo Historian, and maybe have the stage transition be triggered off a certain color like in the initial build.
It could be more than a few. For example, if the full process requires green mana and the sources of green are Elvish Spirit Guide and Sakiko, Mother of Summer, you could get into Knuth necessary numbers precombat and crank out a one time reservoir of green to work with. Though, that all is fairly useless depending on what qualifies as a small number.
To be honest, I didn't think about the Gelectrode part that much yet. We can probably use a sorcery that untaps all creatures with some regular self targeting creature there. The important thing is that we potentially have two different ways to trigger the transition, both putting a copy of some spell on the stack that replenishes a rare resource, but with the weaker one not being able to also cast the more powerful spell. What's still missing is the weaker stage transition also replenishing its own internal Ackermannstage resource.
A possible idea: Magnetic Flux gives artifact creatures flying. Can we do anything with that? Unfortunately, I don't see anything that untaps flying creatures either. We could cast Hurricane to damage flying creatures, but I don't see any way to turn damage or destruction into an untap. Well, except for one: Rite of Passage combined with Sinking Feeling. To make that work, we need all of our stage creatures to have 1 toughness, I think. That should be no problem for the second stage, but for the first one, I didn't see any artifact creature that targeted artifacts and had 1 toughness. Except for Coretapper, but unfortunately it can also sacrifice itself.
EDIT: No, that doesn't work, since the first Volute will fall off the second instant when it changes zones. Not too big a deal, we just need a way to fetch enchantments, like Skull of Orm.
EDIT: Hmm, using Snapcaster Mage or Bosium Strip seems not to work, since we need to have white mana available at the stage level, and then we could use that white mana to cast Battle Cry too easily. So perhaps some way to recycle sorceries but not instants. But, we need to not be able to cast the higher sorceries too easily as well. So, some way to recycle sorceries but not instants, and we still need to pay the mana costs. Doable?
2 Psychic Battle
3 Cowardice
4 Horobi, Death's Wail
5 Bloodbond March
6 Cephalid Shrine
7 Mana Crypt
8 Mimic Vat
9 Omniscience
10 Leyline of Anticipation
11 Mirror of Fate
13 March of the Machines
14 Dual Nature
15 Auratog
16 Gold Myr
17 Mox Emerald
18 Metallurgeon
19 Chatter of the Squirrel
20 Battle Cry
21 Retract
22 Spellweaver Volute
23 Spellweaver Volute
25 Volcanic Spray
26 Volcanic Spray
27 Volcanic Spray
28 Spellweaver Helix
29 Obliterate
30 Insurrection
31 Mountain
32 Priest of Titania
33 Titania, Protector of Argoth
34 Paragon of Eternal Wilds
EDIT: Okay, filled out the rest of the deck:
2 Psychic Battle
3 Cowardice
4 Horobi, Death's Wail
5 Bloodbond March
6 Cephalid Shrine
7 Mana Crypt
8 Mimic Vat
9 Omniscience
10 Leyline of Anticipation
11 Mirror of Fate
12 Skull of Orm
13 March of the Machines
14 Dual Nature
15 Auratog
16 Gold Myr
17 Mox Jet
18 Metallurgeon
19 Lingering Souls
20 Battle Cry
21 Retract
22 Spellweaver Volute
23 Spellweaver Volute
25 Increasing Confusion
26 Increasing Confusion
27 Increasing Confusion
28 Spellweaver Helix
29 Obliterate
30 Scrambleverse
31 Island
32 Blood Vassal
33 Titania, Protector of Argoth
34 Viashino Fangtail
35 Distorting Wake
36 Night Dealings
37 Boon Reflection
38 Tamanoa
39 Underworld Dreams
40 Backfire
41 Spiteful Shadows
42 Guilty Conscience
43 Justice
44 Winter Blast
45 Canopy Vista
46 Telekenetic Bonds
47 Pain Magnification
48 Fireball
49 Druid's Repository
50 World at War
52 Vernal Bloom
53 Show and Tell
54 Yawgmoth's Bargain
55 Finest Hour
56 Thought Reflection
Estimated damage of F_{w^2*2 + 23}(3). Still room left, can add some more layers.
EDIT #2: I forgot that Distorting Wake doesn't affect land cards. Another attempt:
2 Psychic Battle
3 Cowardice
4 Horobi, Death's Wail
5 Bloodbond March
6 Cephalid Shrine
7 Mana Crypt
8 Mimic Vat
9 Omniscience
10 Leyline of Anticipation
11 Mirror of Fate
12 Skull of Orm
13 March of the Machines
14 Dual Nature
15 Steal Enchantment
16 Gold Myr
17 Mox Jet
18 Metallurgeon
19 Spider Spawning
20 Battle Cry
21 Retract
22 Spellweaver Volute
23 Spellweaver Volute
25 Chatter of the Squirrel
26 Chatter of the Squirrel
27 Chatter of the Squirrel
28 Spellweaver Helix
29 Obliterate
30 Scrambleverse
31 Okina, Temple of the Grandfathers
32 Riven Turnbull
33 Titania, Protector of Argoth
34 Viashino Fangtail
35 Overgrown Tomb
36 Boon Reflection
37 Tamanoa
38 Backfire
39 Spiteful Shadows
40 Guilty Conscience
41 Justice
42 Winter Blast
43 Dragon Appeasement
44 Spirit Cairn
45 Pain Magnification
46 Fireball
47 Cinder Glade
48 Reality Spasm
49 Druid's Repository
50 World at War
52 Vernal Bloom
53 Gauntlet of Might
54 Devouring Greed
55 Show and Tell
56 Yawgmoth's Bargain
57 Finest Hour
58 Thought Reflection
This should do F_{w^2*2 + 23}(3) damage again.
Of course there are some things to improve:
Rust Tick goes infinite due to cross targeting with Metallurgeon. We can just cut the Rust Tick as far as I can tell.
Gold Myr seems too hard to use to get the white, since it needs haste. Tooth of Ramos seems better. Requires some March of the Machines bouncing to use, but that is a lot cheaper than using Mimic Vat to create Gold Myr tokens.
We can't use Mana Crypt for colorless mana. As if we can reuse that we can also reuse Mox Jet. I don't know if we need an extra source of colorless for the operations at the bottom or if the white source would be enough. After a quick look I don't see any way to get enough mana to keep functioning there so we will probably need to add a card, unless I'm missing something?
The start with Show and Tell seems impossible if the only blue source is Druids' Repository.
How is the Justice - Winter Blast transition supposed to work?
I'm not sure if a Fireball under Spellweaver Helix goes infinite, but it allows an extra targeting effect and that makes me nervous. ^^
EDIT: I think we can use Copy Enchantment and Allay instead of Skull of Orm, Steal Enchantment and the duplicate Spellweaver Volute.
Winter Blast was supposed to be aided by something that gave creatures flying, but I forgot.
Hmm, will a targeting sorcery go infinite? We need to cast Obliterate to get our mana back, so that's one of the spells copied using Spellweaver Helix. If we resolve Fireball first, there's no problem. So I guess the issue is if Fireball is resolved after Obliterate. The board is cleared, but we can put down a Viashino Fangtail and a Mimic Vat, and target it with the Fireball. That can get us a hasted Viashino Fangtail. Is that enough to go infinite? I'm not sure.
But anyway, I forgot about getting extra stages using protection. So here is a third attempt:
2 Psychic Battle
3 Cowardice
4 Dismiss Into Dream
5 Bloodbond March
6 Cephalid Shrine
7 Mana Vault
8 Mimic Vat
9 Omniscience
10 Leyline of Anticipation
11 Mirror of Fate
12 Chrome Mox
13 Skull of Orm
14 March of the Machines
15 Dual Nature
16 Auratog
17 Tooth of Ramos
18 Mox Ruby
19 Metallurgeon
20 Bump in the Night
21 Battle Cry
22 Retract
23 Spellweaver Volute
24 Spellweaver Volute
26 Increasing Confusion
27 Increasing Confusion
28 Increasing Confusion
29 Spellweaver Helix
30 Obliterate
31 Insurrection
32 Caravan Vigil
33 Island
34 Coal Stoker
35 Viashino Fangtail
36 Aven Smokeweaver
37 Phyrexian Crusader
38 Retribution of the Ancients
39 Oversoul of Dusk
40 Downdraft
41 Phyrexian Lens
42 Boon Reflection
43 Molder
44 Farsight Mask
45 Spiritual Focus
46 Pain Magnification
47 Backfire
48 Spiteful Shadows
49 Guilty Conscience
50 Justice
51 Mighty Emergence
52 Five-Alarm Fire
53 World at War
55 Sylvan Offering
56 Cultural Exchange
57 Show and Tell
58 Yawgmoth's Bargain
59 Finest Hour
60 Thought Reflection
Hopefully, this gets around F_{w^2*2 + w*2 + 13}(3).
Caravan Vigil + the fourth copy of the sorcery won't work to get the land back: From a single cast we can only have one of the Spellweaver Helix copies of a spell on the stack at any time, since we need to resolve the stack down to the trigger to convert that. We can resolve the untap spell and then convert obliterate, but the Caravan Vigil trigger will either have no effect if we moved the card out of exile before we get there, or we can't use the vigil in any lower stage transitions.
First we resolve the trigger of the Helix that has Insurrection imprinted. We put a copy of insurrection on the stack. We resolve Insurrection to refresh our Viashino tokens.
Next we resolve the trigger of the Helix that has Obliterate imprinted. We put a copy of Obliterate on the stack. At this point we want to leave it there as a marker and only resolve it after going through a lot of other stage transitions.
We still have the third Spellweaver Helix trigger on the stack. At the moment that Helix has Caravan Vigil imprinted, but we are currently not in the lowest Ackermann stage of this Hyperstage so we want to resolve a few obliterates and put new Caravan Vigil's on the stack when going back and forth between lower Ackermann stages. To do that we eventually need to imprint Caravan Vigil on another Helix, long before we come back to the current stage transition with the Obliterate and the one Helix trigger on the stack. If we moved the Caravan Vigil card out of exile with the trigger on the stack we get no copy.
We can use a single Helix and put the initial set of transitions on the stack all the way down from the highest to lowest stage, as at that point the Helix doesn't get destroyed, and if we don't move the Vigil card otherwise, each of the triggers should give us a copy of the spell. But due to the back and forth nature of our jumping between stages we want to put new stage transitions on the stack before we go up completely.
What if we resolve the Caravan Vigil before Obliterate? So the Island stays in the graveyard/library most of the time, and only pops onto the battlefield for a moment, where we tap it for mana, and then it gets destroyed.
Getting back to the ending sequence - I would like to go back to our earlier construction that used Night Dealings, but right now I'm not sure what to fetch with it. We can't use Elvish Guidance anymore because of Skull of Orm. I suppose that we could always fetch something like Reality Spasm, but that moots any lands higher up. Any ideas?