If the latter is not used, we still need X=3 to cast-counter Rebuild. Hurkyl's Recall is at X=2, which may be used in the case we need Moggcatcher-BM triggers.
Suppose we have a specific Mimic Vat token (called V). Activate it, so we push it on the stack:
top
activated ability of Mimic Vat V
maybe other abilities
Then we do normal hyperstage thing, and finally destroy Child of Alara. The stack now looks like
top
death trigger of Child of Alara
activated ability of Mimic Vat V
maybe other abilities
Resolve the death trigger, destroy all nonland permanents. This will include Mimic Vat V and many creatures.
Now the question comes: will these deaths trigger the trigger ability of Mimic Vat V? If yes, if we exile some creature (like, C), will V remember the exiled card C? (will a C token be created when the "activated ability of Mimic Vat V" resolves?)
Hmm, interesting idea regarding Chalice of the Void. I'll have to become more adept at the Chalice of the Void combos.
As for the Mimic Vat question, I'm pretty sure that death abilities trigger from simultaneous deaths, so the Mimic Vat triggered ability will indeed get triggered. I'm not totally sure about the second part, but since it's not targeted, it looks like it will create a copy of whatever happens to be exiled at the time, so a copy of C should get created.
EDIT:
More severely, this is a cheap way to get untapped haste tokens of later stages, e.g. Xathrid Gorgon, Old Man of the Sea, etc.
Actually, we use one BM trigger at the topmost layer of that key creature, then we can push one group of PB triggers and one group of BM triggers. So this leads to infinity.
As an opposite, when the activated ability of Mimic Vat resolves, it checks last known information of the Mimic Vat, which had not remembered any creature yet, so no token will be created. Cards exiled after the Mimic Vat leave the battlefield will not affect what is created when the activated ability resolves.
Oh, right. Now I am inclined to think you won't get a token, if Mimic Vat gets destroyed before a creature is exiled. This looks like something worth asking a judge.
If you want to get Bloodbond March triggers for Boggart Mob, you need X=4 for Chalice of the Void, which stops gaining Metallurgeon-BM triggers and you cannot self-mill False Memories.
However, when you flashback Acorn Harvest, you need Chalice on 4 to counter it, in order to stack many megastages.
As usual, use top group of PB and one of BM trigger to get one untapped haste Metallurgeon token (i.e. core stage resource). Do this twice. Activate to push PB triggers, so the tokens become tapped. Bounce and replay Vedalken Orrery.
top
Mirrorworks trigger of Vedalken Orrery
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
group of BM triggers of Metallurgeon
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
maybe other abilities
As usual, use hyperstage resource:
top
group of PB triggers of Skyshroud Archer
Mirrorworks trigger of Vedalken Orrery
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
group of BM triggers of Metallurgeon
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
maybe other abilities
Bounce Boggart Mob, get ETB trigger of Goblin Dark-Dwellers. Cast Battle Cry, then cast-counter False Memories.
top
group of TYS triggers of False Memories
group of PB triggers of Skyshroud Archer
Mirrorworks trigger of Vedalken Orrery
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
group of BM triggers of Metallurgeon
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
maybe other abilities
Mill all three instants. Replay Boggart Mob, champion Goblin Dark-Dwellers.
Use the two new stage resource:
top
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
group of BM triggers of Metallurgeon
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
group of TYS triggers of False Memories
group of PB triggers of Skyshroud Archer
Mirrorworks trigger of Vedalken Orrery
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
group of BM triggers of Metallurgeon
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
maybe other abilities
We still have one hyperstage resource, so we can do the above again
top
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
group of BM triggers of Metallurgeon
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
group of TYS triggers of False Memories
group of PB triggers of Skyshroud Archer
Mirrorworks trigger of Vedalken Orrery
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
group of BM triggers of Metallurgeon
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
group of TYS triggers of False Memories
group of PB triggers of Skyshroud Archer
Mirrorworks trigger of Vedalken Orrery
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
group of BM triggers of Metallurgeon
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
maybe other abilities
Do some usual growth, until
top
PB triggers of Skyshroud Archer
Mirrorworks trigger of Vedalken Orrery
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
group of BM triggers of Metallurgeon
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
group of TYS triggers of False Memories
group of PB triggers of Skyshroud Archer
Mirrorworks trigger of Vedalken Orrery
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
group of BM triggers of Metallurgeon
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
maybe other abilities
Bounce Boggart Mob, get ETB trigger of Goblin Dark-Dwellers. Cast Hurkyl's Recall. Now all artifacts are in hand. Wait for a Vedalken Orrery.
top
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
group of BM triggers of Metallurgeon
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
group of TYS triggers of False Memories
group of PB triggers of Skyshroud Archer
Mirrorworks trigger of Vedalken Orrery
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
group of BM triggers of Metallurgeon
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
maybe other abilities
Even without Chalice of the Void, we can gain the one hyperstage resource back.
And then, resolve down to get one stage resource.
top
group of BM triggers of Metallurgeon
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
group of TYS triggers of False Memories
group of PB triggers of Skyshroud Archer
Mirrorworks trigger of Vedalken Orrery
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
group of BM triggers of Metallurgeon
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
maybe other abilities
Resolve down, mill Hurkyl's Recall.
top
group of TYS triggers of False Memories
group of PB triggers of Skyshroud Archer
Mirrorworks trigger of Vedalken Orrery
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
group of BM triggers of Metallurgeon
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
maybe other abilities
Next, use stage resource, bounce and replay Vedalken Orrery.
top
Mirrorworks trigger of Vedalken Orrery
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
group of TYS triggers of False Memories
group of PB triggers of Skyshroud Archer
Mirrorworks trigger of Vedalken Orrery
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
group of BM triggers of Metallurgeon
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
maybe other abilities
Use hyperstage resource. Bounce Boggart Mob, get ETB trigger of Goblin Dark-Dwellers. Cast Battle Cry. So we still have one stage resource.
top
group of PB triggers of Skyshroud Archer
Mirrorworks trigger of Vedalken Orrery
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
group of TYS triggers of False Memories
group of PB triggers of Skyshroud Archer
Mirrorworks trigger of Vedalken Orrery
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
group of BM triggers of Metallurgeon
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
maybe other abilities
Use the stage resource, bounce and replay Vedalken Orrery.
top
Mirrorworks trigger of Vedalken Orrery
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
group of PB triggers of Skyshroud Archer
Mirrorworks trigger of Vedalken Orrery
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
group of TYS triggers of False Memories
group of PB triggers of Skyshroud Archer
Mirrorworks trigger of Vedalken Orrery
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
group of BM triggers of Metallurgeon
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
maybe other abilities
Now we play Chalice with X=4. Then play Boggart Mob for its BM trigger.
top
group of BM triggers of Boggart Mob
Mirrorworks trigger of Vedalken Orrery
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
group of PB triggers of Skyshroud Archer
Mirrorworks trigger of Vedalken Orrery
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
group of TYS triggers of False Memories
group of PB triggers of Skyshroud Archer
Mirrorworks trigger of Vedalken Orrery
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
group of BM triggers of Metallurgeon
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
maybe other abilities
Flicker Goblin Dark-Dwellers, casting Hurkyl's Recall. Resolve down and pop a Vedalken Orrery.
top
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
group of PB triggers of Skyshroud Archer
Mirrorworks trigger of Vedalken Orrery
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
group of TYS triggers of False Memories
group of PB triggers of Skyshroud Archer
Mirrorworks trigger of Vedalken Orrery
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
group of BM triggers of Metallurgeon
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
maybe other abilities
Now we can get 1 hyperstage resource. Play Chalice with X=2. Continue down to a PB trigger of Skyshroud Archer. Use False Memories to mill all instants. Then cast Hurkyl's Recall. Resolve down and pop a Vedalken Orrery.
top
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
group of TYS triggers of False Memories
group of PB triggers of Skyshroud Archer
Mirrorworks trigger of Vedalken Orrery
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
group of BM triggers of Metallurgeon
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
maybe other abilities
Now we can get 2 hyperstage resources. Continue down to a TYS trigger of False Memories. Mill Hurkyl's Recall.
top
group of PB triggers of Skyshroud Archer
Mirrorworks trigger of Vedalken Orrery
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
group of BM triggers of Metallurgeon
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
maybe other abilities
Use PB trigger of Skyshroud Archer to cast Hurkyl's Recall. Resolve down and pop a Vedalken Orrery.
top
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
group of BM triggers of Metallurgeon
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
maybe other abilities
Now we can get 3 hyperstage resources. We are back, with a little loss of the topmost 2nd group of triggers, but we have 3 hyperstage resources now, instead of 2. So this can go infinity, with more and more hyperstage transitions.
FortyTwo suggested that we could make a gigastage deck in Modern, but that seems like a tall order at this point - maybe megastage is doable in modern though.
That means: each time we want BM triggers of Moggcatcher (in order to get the hyperstage resource - untapped haste Moggcatcher token), we need to set Chalice on 4.
EDIT:
Also, there is Goblin Lookout. I don't know whether it is useful (instead of Clickslither).
Untapped haste Goblin Lookout token can be obtained from its death by Engineered Explosives. Then it can be fetched by Moggcatcher. So, one cycle of Goblin Dark-Dwellers means
get untapped haste Goblin Lookout + get untapped haste Moggcatcher
which means
use Engineered Explosives on 2 + (get untapped haste Moggcatcher)*2
which means (assume one untapped haste Skyshroud Archer can get one untapped haste Moggcatcher, but I don't know the process exactly)
use Engineered Explosives on 2 + (get untapped haste Skyshroud Archer)*2
which means
use Engineered Explosives on 2 + (use Engineered Explosives on 1)*2
which means
(effective Hurkyl's Recall + Vedalken Orrery refill)*3
which means
3 controllable ETB of Goblin Dark-Dwellers
sounds bad.
EDIT 2:
Matsu-Tribe Sniper has mana value 2, the same as Goblin Lookout. One use of Engineered Explosives can destroy and get both haste tokens.
In this deck, we see an untapped haste Moggcatcher as hyperstage resource, but if Goblin Dark-Dwellers card is on battlefield, we add half resource, because we can still get one controllable ETB trigger.
Use 0.5 hyperstage resources to cast Hurkyl's Recall. Get Chalice and Explosives back to hand. Resolve down and pop Vedalken Orrery.
top
group of TYS triggers of False Memories
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
maybe other abilities
Now Hurkyl's Recall is in exile. Resolve a TYS copy of False Memories, so it goes graveyard.
Use the Explosives to get one untapped haste Skyshroud Archer.
Next, replay Vedalken Orrery.
top
Mirrorworks trigger of Vedalken Orrery
group of TYS triggers of False Memories
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
maybe other abilities
Again use 0.5 hyperstage resource to get Explosives back to hand. And resolve to mill Hurkyl's Recall. And then replay Vedalken Orrery.
top
Mirrorworks trigger of Vedalken Orrery
group of TYS triggers of False Memories
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
maybe other abilities
It is notable that we cannot get two untapped haste Skyshroud Archers, which will be gone on Explosives. So the best result we can save is: Moggcatcher card and Explosives in hand, plus one untapped haste Skyshroud Archer on battlefield - this is the scenario we are now.
Also we have 0 hyperstage resources now.
Play Chalice on 4, then play Moggcatcher for BM triggers. Use the untapped haste Skyshroud Archer for PB triggers. Play Moggcatcher for BM triggers.
top
group of BM triggers of Moggcatcher
group of PB triggers of Skyshroud Archer
group of BM triggers of Moggcatcher
Mirrorworks trigger of Vedalken Orrery
group of TYS triggers of False Memories
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
maybe other abilities
Use Explosive to get untapped haste Skyshroud Archer. Use it to get another PB group.
top
group of PB triggers of Skyshroud Archer
group of BM triggers of Moggcatcher
group of PB triggers of Skyshroud Archer
group of BM triggers of Moggcatcher
Mirrorworks trigger of Vedalken Orrery
group of TYS triggers of False Memories
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
maybe other abilities
Each PB-BM double group make one hyperstage resource. So we have 2 hyperstage resources as the topmost 4th group resolves.
top
Mirrorworks trigger of Vedalken Orrery
group of TYS triggers of False Memories
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
maybe other abilities
Use 0.5 hyperstage resource for Hurkyl's Recall. Resolve down: pop Vedalken Orrery and then mill Hurkyl's Recall.
top
group of TYS triggers of False Memories
group of PB triggers of Metallurgeon
maybe other abilities
Play Chalice on 2. Use Explosive for untapped haste Skyshroud Archer, then bounce Moggcatcher card to hand.
Compared with the paused point: now we have 1.5 hyperstage resources, 0.5 more than the paused point; now we have 3 fewer TYS copies of False Memories.
If we loop this until the group of TYS triggers of False Memories exhaust, we will have MANY hyperstage resources.
Use 2 untapped haste Scattershot Archers to get one death of Moggcatcher, which means 2 controllable ETB of Goblin Dark-Dwellers, provided Clickslither to freely kill Goblin Dark-Dwellers, and Strongarm Thug to easily fetch itself and Moggcatcher.
We need one Explosives to get one haste Scattershot Archer, which means 2 haste Moggcatchers, then another Explosives to make a haste Goblin Lookout. Also "2 Scattershot Archer + 1 Moggcatcher" looks similarly.
That is an important usage in startup. But it might lead to infinity in usual play.
Hyperstage, Megastage and Gigastage all assume that "we need haste Metallurgeons to continue processing. If there is no, we can't go further. The only way to get haste Metallurgeon is using some PB/BM triggers in "trigger groups" at below. It forces us to do so, so no infinite". However, due to the startup process, this might be not true.
Take Child of Alara-based megastage as example.
We prepare the come-back of Vedalken Orrery and Omniscience, then flashback Acorn Harvest in cost of 3 life. Cast Smite the Monstrous, get TYS triggers, which get (many, even with only 1 TYS + 1 PB on battlefield) PB triggers, which bounce Goblin Dark-Dwellers so we can reuse Retract/Hurkyl's Recall/Rebuild. After some growth, destroy Child of Alara and gain 3 life from Centaur Safeguard. After Vedalken Orrery and Omniscience pop out, we can again spend 3 life for the same thing.
Hyperstage seems safe: for example, in my deck, in a dual cycle, we need to
Spend 2 for token Mimic Vat, 2 times (we need 4 of them in dual cycle, so 2 tokens)
35 mana in total, against only 14 mana we gain each dual cycle. So we will be short of mana using this.
But for megastage, there are many MANY PB triggers bouncing Goblin Dark-Dwellers, we might have plenty of mana to go infinite.
Note: DO NOT read the following. I forgot that Child of Alara is Legendary.
Maybe not. Child of Alara is not so easy to fetch back.
Generally, the stack looks like this. Here shows a slice of megastage.
...... ......
group of PB - Metallurgeon
group of BM - Metallurgeon
group of TYS - Retract
pop out Vedalken Orrery
group of PB - Metallurgeon
group of BM - Metallurgeon
group of PB - Metallurgeon
...
group of PB - Metallurgeon
group of BM - Metallurgeon
group of PB - Smite the Monstrous <-- A
group of TYS - Smite the Monstrous
some preparation abilities<-- B
group of PB - Metallurgeon
group of BM - Metallurgeon
group of PB - Metallurgeon
...
group of PB - Metallurgeon
group of BM - Metallurgeon
group of TYS - Retract
Verdant Succession - Scattershot Archer <-- C
pop out Vedalken Orrery
group of PB - Metallurgeon
group of BM - Metallurgeon
group of PB - Metallurgeon
...
group of PB - Metallurgeon
group of BM - Metallurgeon
group of TYS - Retract
pop out Vedalken Orrery
group of PB - Metallurgeon
group of BM - Metallurgeon
group of PB - Metallurgeon
...
...
group of PB - Metallurgeon
group of BM - Metallurgeon
group of TYS - Retract
pop out Vedalken Orrery
group of PB - Metallurgeon
group of BM - Metallurgeon
group of PB - Metallurgeon
...
group of PB - Metallurgeon
group of BM - Metallurgeon
group of TYS - Retract
pop out Vedalken Orrery
group of PB - Metallurgeon
group of BM - Metallurgeon
group of PB - Metallurgeon
...
group of PB - Metallurgeon
group of BM - Metallurgeon
group of PB - Smite the Monstrous <-- D
group of TYS - Smite the Monstrous
some preparation abilities<-- E
group of PB - Metallurgeon
group of BM - Metallurgeon
group of PB - Metallurgeon
...
group of BM - Metallurgeon
group of PB - Metallurgeon
group of BM - Metallurgeon
group of TYS - Retract
Verdant Succession - Scattershot Archer
pop out Vedalken Orrery
group of PB - Metallurgeon
group of BM - Metallurgeon
group of PB - Metallurgeon
...... ......
If the abilities between A and B gradually resolve, down to several PB - Smite the Monstrous triggers, we would use them to bounce the creatures we need to keep, and put a Centaur Safeguard into library. Final PB - Smite the Monstrous kill Child of Alara. We gain 3 life, and the Centaur Safeguard in library go back to battlefield without any further responses.
Scattershot Archer is fetch by group C.
To fetch Child of Alara, we might have hold it in hand at some time before, then play for its BM triggers inside the complicated "group B" triggers. But, how do we "hold it in hand"? Certainly it should be some PB - Smite the Monstrous trigger, but there are group A and group D.
If we use group D to bounce Child of Alara, that is very expensive. We lost all the googological content of layer, stage and hyperstage between D and B, making Child of Alara megastage a stage (alternative groups of TYS - Smite the Monstrous, PB - Smite the Monstrous and possibly BM - Child of Alara).
If we use group A to bounce Child of Alara, we should have a token Child of Alara when stack resolve down from A to B. This is quite tricky, separated into two phases.
Short phase. Start with Child of Alara card in hand. Stack is a little below "group B". Play Child of Alara for BM triggers (lower position in group B). We prepare a specific token Mimic Vat, and should keep it on battlefield without Retract. When we prepared enough (higher position in group B), activate the token Mimic Vat, without resolving.
Flashback Acorn Harvest, build group A on stack. In short phase, PB - Smite the Monstrous bounce Goblin Dark-Dwellers, which use Battle Cry (no Retract!), getting TYS - Battle Cry triggers, which can further build one Metallurgeon stage. Since we cannot Retract, this is the furthest we can do.
When group A resolve down to final PB - Smite the Monstrous, we hold Goblin Dark-Dwellers in hand. Final PB - Smite the Monstrous kill Child of Alara, imprinting on that specific token Mimic Vat, but don't let the Child of Alara trigger resolve.
In response, we play Goblin Dark-Dwellers, Retract the token Mimic Vat along with other artifacts.
Notice: for last known information of that token Mimic Vat, it remembered the Child of Alara card.
Stack resolve. Down to the activated ability of that Mimic Vat, token Child of Alara is out.
Get Vedalken Orrery and Omniscience back. Put Child of Alara into graveyard.
Then BM - Child of Alara fetch it.
Now there is Child of Alara card and token on battlefield.
Long phase. Start with Child of Alara card on battlefield, along with its token copy. Normally push abilities on stack. At group A, use one PB - Smite the Monstrous to bounce Child of Alara. Normally play. There can be many stages above this. When stack resolve down to final PB - Smite the Monstrous above B, kill the token Child of Alara.
Actually, we can also prepare token Child of Alara when we successively resolve down many hyperstages. Each time we need Short phase to get such a token.
Back to the startup playing. What if we continuely play short phase without haste Metallurgeon? Well, we can only get one Retract for each short phase play, rewarding 7 mana. But we need more mana than this.
1G flashback mana
3 making token Child of Alara
2 for a Mirror of Fate token
3 to prepare Vedalken Orrery + Omniscience
... (already 10 mana, but I don't know more details of that)
Okay. That looks safe.
Still unsafe. We can alternatively play short phase (which gets very few growth) and long phase (which allows a lot growth), both using the startup playing, without Metallurgeon.
EDIT:
Another problem about megastage. When we end up a long phase, use several PB - Smite the Monstrous triggers, we play Goblin Dark-Dwellers to Retract, then PB trigger bounce Goblin Dark-Dwellers, finally destroy Child of Alara. Down to the preparation abilities, we have both Engineered Explosives and Goblin Dark-Dwellers in hand. There is one stage between group B and group C (fetching Scattershot Archer), but we can build two groups from Engineered Explosives and Goblin Dark-Dwellers. Net gain one stage. So this will go infinite.
It is not a hyperstage specific problem. As long as each stage requires one play of Engineered Explosives or one ETB of Goblin Dark-Dwellers, there is the problem.
I'm sorry, I'm not quite understanding the nature of the problem. Generally, we assume that we have plenty of various resources, like mana of the various colors, and we have to avoid there existing an infinite loop where no resource gets continually depleted. So normally we wouldn't assume we are safe because mana is scarce.
What is the infinite loop that occurs when we have plenty of mana?
Edit: Yeah, that's one of the biggest problems (if not the biggest problem) with the megastage/gigastage constructions; the sweepers for the higher stage levels force us to bring stuff back to our hand, but that allows us to profit a bit in the lower stage/hyperstage/megastage. The usual idea is to either make the payment negate the gain (for example, we would have Chatter of the Squirrel at the lower stage level based on green mana, and Acorn Harvest at the higher stage level based on life, but also requiring a payment of green), or somehow force us to expend the extra resources to restart the transition. For example, I think Stakfish used Goblin Dark-Dwellers to cast Bone Harvest in one or more decks, in order to make the transition work.
Right now, the megastage payment (Acorn Harvest) doesn't seem suited to make us pay a hyperstage resource, so it may be necessary to force us to spend two hyperstage resources to restart the megastage transition. That may be a tall order, but I'm not sure what else we could do.
Well, I guess a third option would be to have Goblin Dark-Dwellers and/or Engineered Explosives not wind up in our hand without losing them for good. But again, I don't have any details on how to do it.
Briefly:
Ideally, to grow a stage/hyperstage/megastage on the stack, the deck forces abilities of a layer/stage/hyperstage below them to reduce. Due to this reduce, there is no infinite loop.
However, there may be some way to play: an intended way using Metallurgeon to reuse artifacts and gain mana, and a special way using Retract. Special way doesn't reduce abilities of a layer/stage/hyperstage below the stage/hyperstage/megastage (on stack). Superfacially there is no change on the stack, but we can still get more combo permanents and TYS counting numbers.
If we gain few mana but spend more, this special play won't last long; to get more combo permanents and TYS counting numbers, we can do better with usual (intended) play. If we gain plenty mana but spend few, this special play will go infinite.
Also for the "EDIT". If you've read my writing about how to fetch Child of Alara by its BM trigger, you can conclude that:
I forgot that Child of Alara is Legendary.
But then, how to get it back to battlefield after its death?
Also, there are some decks with only one Centaur Safeguard. How to get it back to battlefield after its death?
And third question. How to get Centaur Safeguard back after Worldfire clean everything, but not trigger Verdant Succession?
And fourth question. If we hold Goblin Dark-Dwellers in hand, we can get BM triggers for it. If we have cheap way to kill Goblin Dark-Dwellers, those triggers could turn into many hyperstage resources.
Okay. Now I understand something.
1. We don't use BM for Child of Alara. Instead, we use Verdant Succession.
The death of Child of Alara will trigger its LTB and Verdant Succession. Put LTB above Verdant Succession on the stack.
In response we use Perpetual Timepiece (or Mimic Vat + Mirror of Fate) to put Child of Alara in library.
After LTB sweep out everything, Child of Alara go back to battlefield.
Flashback Spider Spawning, countered, get Spellweaver Helix triggered.
We first cast Eureka and Acorn Harvest (not relavent), then Natural Order, which kills Centaur Safeguard (giving us 3 life), and finally Worldfire. All 4 sorceries have their Cephalid Shrine triggers, plus 4 Spellweaver Volute triggers, along with Verdant Succession triggers of Centaur Safeguard. We manage the stack as this:
4 Cephalid Shrine triggers
4 Spellweaver Volute triggers
group of Verdant Succession triggers
Worldfire
Natural Order
Acorn Harvest
Eureka
......
Leave Worldfire and Natural Order uncountered. Play TYS.
Then Spellweaver Volute cast Smite the Monstrous.
So we have
group of PB - Smite the Monstrous
TYS - Smite the Monstrous
3 Spellweaver Volute triggers
group of Verdant Succession triggers
Worldfire
Natural Order
......
Spellweaver Volute triggers and Smite the Monstrous things give us no life since all two Centaur Safeguards are out of battlefield.
Every two Verdant Succession triggers bring out 2 Centaur Safeguard cards, then we flashback the Acorn Harvest (we used up the 3 life from casting Natural Order). When that is done, we gain 6 life, and both Centaur Safeguard cards are out of battlefield.
Repeat this. Every 2 Verdant Succession triggers give us 3 life.
After all the Verdant Succession triggers done, we can continue building stack.
When the stack resolve down, before Worldfire, put a Centaur Safeguard card in library.
After Worldfire sweeper, Natural Order resolve, fetching one Centaur Safeguard. The other card is exiled.
Goblin Lookout has infinite loop. We are supposed to use Engineered Explosives with X=1 and X=2 alternatively. But if the stack looks like this:
group of PB - Metallurgeon
group of BM - Metallurgeon
group of PB - Metallurgeon
with no untapped haste Metallurgeon on battlefield.
Use a PB - Metallurgeon to bounce Metallurgeon card, replay for BM triggers.
group of BM - Metallurgeon
group of PB - Metallurgeon
group of BM - Metallurgeon
group of PB - Metallurgeon
Use Engineered Explosives on X=2. We are supposed to kill and make haste token of Goblin Lookout, but at the same time it also kill and make haste token of Metallurgeon.
Use a BM - Metallurgeon to bring it back.
Then use the new haste Metallurgeon to push PB - Metallurgeon on stack.
group of PB - Metallurgeon
group of BM - Metallurgeon
group of PB - Metallurgeon
group of BM - Metallurgeon
group of PB - Metallurgeon
Next we can do the usually turn-off of Goblin Dark-Dwellers, making new stage at above.
When they resolve down here, Engineered Explosives is also back due to Retract. We are back to the original state, with one more alternative dual layers of PB/BM - Metallurgeon triggers.
Each time we use Engineered Explosives with X=2 in this way, we also make one more alternative dual layers of Metallurgeon triggers.
Yeah, it looks like it's a problem to have the same mana value for Goblin Lookout and Metallurgeon. It would be nice perhaps to replace Metallurgeon by Rust Tick or Clockwork Gnomes, but those don't work with Battle Cry, and we never did figure out a good beneficial spell for artifact creatures. The other option would be to replace Goblin Lookout with something of a different mana value - I don't know if 3 or 4 are still problematic.
So, we still need to do the write-up for this, but I suppose our efforts should be concentrated on the Standard write-up since that is time sensitive. In the meantime, we can perhaps think about some other things, like the gigastage (Hyp Cos has mentioned some difficult problems to deal with however), or the Modern version of the challenge.
We could also continue from the Graham's Number challenge, to other goalposts or deck sizes. 7/8/9 card sizes would be interesting; do we have anything that beats CaptainMarcia's best 7 card deck from their thread? It looks like it was:
Edit: We could possibly do better with Precursor Golem, maybe. Using an instant/sorcery that copies a target creature, along with an instant/sorcery that could target a single Golem and also recycle the previous sorcery, could do it; another copied instant/sorcery beyond that definitely would. However, the best I could do was, assuming an empty library:
Start with Spire and Amber #1, allowing the Spire to tap for R (19 life) and play Zurgo. Amber #1 taps for R, play Amber #2, drop #1 and tap #2 for R. Play #3 (or some other 0-cost card) and counter it with Tibalt's Trickery.
Trickery mills Gridlock and plays Bolas's Citadel. (Now 1 card in hand, 8 in library.) Citadel plays Thousand-Year Storm (13 life) followed by Orvar and Double Major (7 life, storm 2). TYS means we now have three Orvars.
We next cast Elemental Uprising from our library (5 life, storm 3) targeting Spire. We let the Orvar triggers resolve before TYS, so we can animate two of the three tokens in addition to the original tapped Spire. Next, we cast Prepare from our library (3 life, storm 4) targeting the original Spire four times, generating three more tokens and boosting it to 12/12 lifelink. We'll also use the untaps to generate CCC.
We tap the Spire again for R (2 life) and spend all our mana to cast Ardent Elementalist from our hand, which returns Prepare//Fight. We tap the big Spire and one of the other animated ones to re-cast Prepare (1 life, storm 5) with the original targeting Ardent Elementalist, three copies boosting the big Spire to 18/18, and the last one untapping the other Spire. The Orvars make three more Elementalists, which retrieve Tibalt's Trickery, Double Major, and Gridlock.
Next, go to combat. The big Spire swing for 18 lifelink, putting our opponent at 2 and us at 19. We have six untapped Spires.
After combat, we can cast Toralf from our library (15 life), then hold priority and do the next steps with him on the stack.
[Disclaimer: There's definitely better ways to do this part, I realized after typing up most of it that optimizing for TYS copies is better.]
We tap two Spires to cast Gridlock at X=1 (14 life, storm 6). All the Gridlocks will tap an Elementalist, causing three Orvar triggers. The first one resolves, making an Elementalist that retrieves Prepare//Fight. Another two Spires let us cast Prepare again (13 life, storm 7), with the original targeting Orvar and the copies targeting the big Spire, untapping it six times and letting us tap it six more times for CCCCC. This makes two more Orvars, for a total of 5. The second Orvar trigger lets us bring back Prepare and do the same thing (12 life, storm 8). We go up to 9 Orvars and get a bunch more mana. (By this point I don't think there's a point in continuing to track colorless mana or Spires, the important thing is the life to colored mana conversion.)
The third Orvar trigger brings back Prepare again. We'll hold onto it for now and cast Double Major on Toralf (10 life, storm 9). We let the stack resolve and end up with 10 Toralfs. Next, we cast our final card, Slaughter Specialist (8 life) and hold priority again.
Prepare goes back on Elementalist (7 life, storm 10) to get another 9 Orvar-Elementalist triggers. Most of the Prepare copies keep going to the big Spire, but we'll need to toss one to a Toralf. As the Spire keeps untapping, we'll drop to 1 life to make UUUUGG. We recur Gridlock this time, using the first (UUUGG, storm 11) to increase our Orvars to 17 and the second (UUGG, storm 12) to increase them to 33. The third Gridlock (UGG, storm 12) targets Thousand-Year Storm, making 33 copies of it for a total of 34.
The next trigger gives us Double Major back, which goes on Slaughter Specialist (G, storm 13), resulting in a total of 410 Specialists. The remaining triggers pick our instants back up, with Prepare//Fight ending up as the only one left.
We use our last mana to cast Fight, which gets copied a ton of times to let Toralf do his thing. The first one to resolve will want to throw the big Spire at one of the tokens the opponent gets from the Specialists, while the others will use the Specialists themselves since they'll be bigger by then.
As we gain life from the lifelink Toralf, we keep using Gridlock to expand our team. To start a chain, we use Gridlock on an Elementalist to trigger all of our Orvars, then use Tibalt's Trickery to counter Gridlock and put it back in the graveyard where the Elementalist copies can pick it back up as they appear. From there, we can use the Gridlock recursions to spend our life on copying Spires and Specialists if we're running low, and otherwise on piling up Orvars and Toralfs. Repeat for however long it goes.
Doesn't get as many iterations of Graham's function as some of the other strategies, but if all this holds up, it should still solidly clear the target.
Very nice! It looks like this line gets 443 copies of Fight, so it deals around F_{w+1}(443) damage, enough to beat Graham's Number, although as you say there are probably more optimized lines.
Getting started on turn 1 in pioneer is pretty painful huh?
I don't have the pioneer cutoff very set in my head yet and keep thinking of card that aren't in the format at all... so the only possible improvement to the card choices in that strategy is something likeleave // chance over gridlock though I'm not even sure if its worth it as saving colorless mana at that point in the combo is pretty moot and it does result in slightly fewer copies. (Its a shame leyline of abundance is banned or we could cut a mox or two while also improving our ability to combo.) Edit: I misread Orvar again.
Optimizing for early TYS copies does seem better but its difficult so see what the actually optimal line is. As I suspect it involves some more subtle choices.
I think there might be a better toralf stage, or maybe even a spell stage without toralf?
Getting started on turn 1 in pioneer is pretty painful huh?
I don't have the pioneer cutoff very set in my head yet and keep thinking of card that aren't in the format at all... so the only possible improvement to the card choices in that strategy is something likeleave // chance over gridlock though I'm not even sure if its worth it as saving colorless mana at that point in the combo is pretty moot and it does result in slightly fewer copies. (Its a shame leyline of abundance is banned or we could cut a mox or two while also improving our ability to combo.) Edit: I misread Orvar again.
Optimizing for early TYS copies does seem better but its difficult so see what the actually optimal line is. As I suspect it involves some more subtle choices.
I think there might be a better toralf stage, or maybe even a spell stage without toralf?
Yeah, I considered Leave but each Orvar still only makes one token. Although now that you mention it, the fact that multiple Orvars can pick different targets to trigger on could be beneficial if you want to use one spell to copy multiple different cards. But Gridlock can do that with trivial colorless mana payment so it'd just be a change to the execution.
It certainly would be interesting if a traditional stage could beat out using a Toralf stage! For an old-fashioned double spell stage, we need at least one copy each of the alternating spells (preferably instants, so we don't need a flash enabler), along with a way to counter them so that they can be reused, and a way to bring them back to our hand to reuse them. A spell that brings a spell back to our hand could handle both of those tasks. Divide By Zero looks especially nice, since a copy could bring a permanent back to our hand as well. But, I didn't see something good to pair with Divide by Zero. I didn't check spells that cost a single mana of other colors, so perhaps with an instant like that we could have cheap colorless mana and have the stage resource be a colored mana from a permanent that can produce multiple colors.
Hmm, but using the permanent bouncing of Divide by Zero to bounce our mana resource doesn't go well with Orvar, since Orvar would produce multiple copies of our mana resource from multiple copies of the spell. So we would have to go without Orvar, which could slow things down.
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If the latter is not used, we still need X=3 to cast-counter Rebuild. Hurkyl's Recall is at X=2, which may be used in the case we need Moggcatcher-BM triggers.
An explicit example is when Child of Alara destroy creatures and along with Mimic Vat.
Suppose we have a specific Mimic Vat token (called V). Activate it, so we push it on the stack:
Now the question comes: will these deaths trigger the trigger ability of Mimic Vat V? If yes, if we exile some creature (like, C), will V remember the exiled card C? (will a C token be created when the "activated ability of Mimic Vat V" resolves?)
As for the Mimic Vat question, I'm pretty sure that death abilities trigger from simultaneous deaths, so the Mimic Vat triggered ability will indeed get triggered. I'm not totally sure about the second part, but since it's not targeted, it looks like it will create a copy of whatever happens to be exiled at the time, so a copy of C should get created.
3 life from the Centaur Safeguard card, 3 life from a Centaur Safeguard token.
EDIT:
More severely, this is a cheap way to get untapped haste tokens of later stages, e.g. Xathrid Gorgon, Old Man of the Sea, etc.
Actually, we use one BM trigger at the topmost layer of that key creature, then we can push one group of PB triggers and one group of BM triggers. So this leads to infinity.
1 Vedalken Orrery
2 Omniscience
3 Opalescence
4 Karn, Silver Golem
5 Cowardice
6 Horobi, Death's Wail
Mana Sources
7 Mana Vault
8 Mox Pearl
9 Mox Emerald
Consumable Artifacts
10 Mirror of Fate
11 Mimic Vat
12 Skull of Orm
Combo Permanents
13 Mirrorworks
14 Psychic Battle
15 Bloodbond March
16 Thousand-Year Storm
Core Stage
17 Chalice of the Void
18 Verdant Succession
19 Phantatog
20 Salvaging Station
21 Metallurgeon
22 Battle Cry
23 Hurkyl's Recall
24 False Memories
25 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
26 Boggart Mob
27 Bramblewood Paragon
28 Abzan Falconer
29 Skyshroud Archer
30 Engineered Explosives
Megastage
31 Smite the Monstrous
32 Spellweaver Volute
33 Acorn Harvest
34 Child of Alara
35 Centaur Healer
36 Woodland Bellower
37 Twinning Glass
Gigastage
38 Divine Congregation
39 Spellweaver Helix
40 Spider Spawning
41 Spider Spawning
42 Spider Spawning
43 Worldfire
44 Llanowar Wastes
45 Titania, Protector of Argoth
46 Wormfang Behemoth
47 Polluted Dead
48 Frightshroud Courier
49 Simian Spirit Guide
50 Goblin Kites
51 Wilderness Hypnotist
52 Streambed Aquitects
53 Old Man of the Sea
54 Xathrid Gorgon
Final Layers
55 Tribal Unity
56 Sylvan Echoes
57 Sentry Oak
58 World at War
Startup
59 Eureka
60 Words of Wisdom
Usually Chalice of the Void is locked at X=2.
If you want to get Bloodbond March triggers for Boggart Mob, you need X=4 for Chalice of the Void, which stops gaining Metallurgeon-BM triggers and you cannot self-mill False Memories.
However, when you flashback Acorn Harvest, you need Chalice on 4 to counter it, in order to stack many megastages.
I don't know whether and how to make this work.
Start with 2 untapped haste Skyshroud Archer tokens (i.e. hyperstage resource). Engineered Explosives is used (no charge counter), and Chalice of the Void is on X=2. Boggart Mob champions Goblin Dark-Dwellers. Out of battlefield, False Memories and Battle Cry are in graveyard, but Hurkyl's Recall is in exile (this is also a usual case after a Hurkyl's Recall resolve). Stack looks like
Use the two new stage resource:
And then, resolve down to get one stage resource.
FortyTwo suggested that we could make a gigastage deck in Modern, but that seems like a tall order at this point - maybe megastage is doable in modern though.
Clickslither
Moggcatcher
Dearly Departed
Abzan Falconer
Skyshroud Archer
?
That means: each time we want BM triggers of Moggcatcher (in order to get the hyperstage resource - untapped haste Moggcatcher token), we need to set Chalice on 4.
EDIT:
Also, there is Goblin Lookout. I don't know whether it is useful (instead of Clickslither).
Untapped haste Goblin Lookout token can be obtained from its death by Engineered Explosives. Then it can be fetched by Moggcatcher. So, one cycle of Goblin Dark-Dwellers means
get untapped haste Goblin Lookout + get untapped haste Moggcatcher
which means
use Engineered Explosives on 2 + (get untapped haste Moggcatcher)*2
which means (assume one untapped haste Skyshroud Archer can get one untapped haste Moggcatcher, but I don't know the process exactly)
use Engineered Explosives on 2 + (get untapped haste Skyshroud Archer)*2
which means
use Engineered Explosives on 2 + (use Engineered Explosives on 1)*2
which means
(effective Hurkyl's Recall + Vedalken Orrery refill)*3
which means
3 controllable ETB of Goblin Dark-Dwellers
sounds bad.
EDIT 2:
Matsu-Tribe Sniper has mana value 2, the same as Goblin Lookout. One use of Engineered Explosives can destroy and get both haste tokens.
Now there is the question: Does every untapped haste Matsu-Tribe Sniper (or Skyshroud Archer) token exactly make one untapped haste Moggcatcher token?
In this deck, we see an untapped haste Moggcatcher as hyperstage resource, but if Goblin Dark-Dwellers card is on battlefield, we add half resource, because we can still get one controllable ETB trigger.
Start with 1.5 hyperstage resources. Moggcatcher card is in hand. On field, there is Vedalken Orrery with its token, Skyshroud Archer with no untapped haste token, Clickslither, Chalice of the Void at 2 and Engineered Explosives at 0 (used up). Stack is:
Use 0.5 hyperstage resource to get Goblin Dark-Dwellers ETB. Cast-counter False Memories. Use one to mill all instants.
Next, play Vedalken Orrery.
Use the Explosives to get one untapped haste Skyshroud Archer.
Next, replay Vedalken Orrery.
Also we have 0 hyperstage resources now.
Play Chalice on 4, then play Moggcatcher for BM triggers. Use the untapped haste Skyshroud Archer for PB triggers. Play Moggcatcher for BM triggers.
Compared with the paused point: now we have 1.5 hyperstage resources, 0.5 more than the paused point; now we have 3 fewer TYS copies of False Memories.
If we loop this until the group of TYS triggers of False Memories exhaust, we will have MANY hyperstage resources.
Use 2 untapped haste Scattershot Archers to get one death of Moggcatcher, which means 2 controllable ETB of Goblin Dark-Dwellers, provided Clickslither to freely kill Goblin Dark-Dwellers, and Strongarm Thug to easily fetch itself and Moggcatcher.
Looks similar to this deck, but without Gratuitous Violence.
EDIT:
Oh no! We need 3 untapped haste Scattershot Archers to get one death of Moggcatcher, rewarding only 2 usages of Engineered Explosives.
EDIT2:
How about this?
1 Vedalken Orrery
2 Omniscience
3 Opalescence
4 Karn, Silver Golem
5 Cowardice
6 Horobi, Death's Wail
7 Cephalid Shrine
Mana Sources
8 Mana Vault
9 Mox Pearl
10 Mox Emerald
Consumable Artifacts
11 Mirror of Fate
12 Mimic Vat
13 Skull of Orm
14 Perpetual Timepiece
Combo Permanents
15 Mirrorworks
16 Panharmonicon
17 Psychic Battle
18 Bloodbond March
19 Thousand-Year Storm
Core Stage
20 Verdant Succession
21 Phantatog
22 Salvaging Station
23 Metallurgeon
24 Battle Cry
25 Retract
26 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
27 Goblin Lookout
28 Moggcatcher
29 Courageous Outrider
30 Dearly Departed
31 Abzan Falconer
32 Scattershot Archer
33 Gratuitous Violence
34 Engineered Explosives
35 Wrap in Vigor
Megastage
36 Smite the Monstrous
37 Spellweaver Volute
38 Acorn Harvest
39 Child of Alara
40 Centaur Safeguard
41 Woodland Bellower
42 Twinning Glass
Gigastage
43 Divine Congregation
44 Spellweaver Helix
45 Spider Spawning
46 Spider Spawning
47 Worldfire
48 Bayou
49 Titania, Protector of Argoth
50 Wormfang Behemoth
51 Polluted Dead
52 Frightshroud Courier
53 Simian Spirit Guide
54 Goblin Kites
55 Old Man of the Sea
56 Xathrid Gorgon
Final Layers
57 Tribal Unity
58 Consecrated Sphinx
59 Sphinx of Enlightenment
Startup
60 Eureka
No. Still 3 Explosives uses against 2 regain uses.
And this one doesn't work, unless one untapped haste Matsu-Tribe Sniper can make one untapped haste Moggcatcher.
1 Vedalken Orrery
2 Omniscience
3 Opalescence
4 Karn, Silver Golem
5 Cowardice
6 Horobi, Death's Wail
7 Cephalid Shrine
Mana Sources
8 Mana Vault
9 Mox Pearl
10 Mox Emerald
Consumable Artifacts
11 Mirror of Fate
12 Mimic Vat
13 Skull of Orm
14 Perpetual Timepiece
Combo Permanents
15 Mirrorworks
16 Panharmonicon
17 Psychic Battle
18 Bloodbond March
19 Thousand-Year Storm
Core Stage
20 Verdant Succession
21 Phantatog
22 Salvaging Station
23 Metallurgeon
24 Battle Cry
25 Retract
26 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
27 Goblin Lookout
28 Moggcatcher
29 Dearly Departed
30 Abzan Falconer
31 Matsu-Tribe Sniper
32 Engineered Explosives
Megastage
33 Smite the Monstrous
34 Spellweaver Volute
35 Acorn Harvest
36 Child of Alara
37 Centaur Safeguard
38 Woodland Bellower
39 Twinning Glass
Gigastage
40 Divine Congregation
41 Spellweaver Helix
42 Spider Spawning
43 Spider Spawning
44 Worldfire
45 Bayou
46 Titania, Protector of Argoth
47 Wormfang Behemoth
48 Polluted Dead
49 Frightshroud Courier
50 Simian Spirit Guide
51 Goblin Kites
52 Wilderness Hypnotist
53 Streambed Aquitects
54 Old Man of the Sea
55 Xathrid Gorgon
Final Layers
56 Tribal Unity
57 Glorious Sunrise
58 Finest Hour
Startup
59 Sphinx of Enlightenment
60 Eureka
And how about this?
1 Vedalken Orrery
2 Omniscience
3 Opalescence
4 Karn, Silver Golem
5 Cowardice
6 Horobi, Death's Wail
7 Cephalid Shrine
Mana Sources
8 Mana Vault
9 Mox Pearl
10 Mox Emerald
Consumable Artifacts
11 Mirror of Fate
12 Mimic Vat
13 Skull of Orm
14 Perpetual Timepiece
Combo Permanents
15 Mirrorworks
16 Panharmonicon
17 Psychic Battle
18 Bloodbond March
19 Thousand-Year Storm
Core Stage
20 Verdant Succession
21 Phantatog
22 Salvaging Station
23 Metallurgeon
24 Battle Cry
25 Retract
26 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
27 Goblin Lookout
28 Moggcatcher
29 Moggcatcher
30 Courageous Outrider
31 Dearly Departed
32 Abzan Falconer
33 Scattershot Archer
34 Gratuitous Violence
35 Engineered Explosives
36 Wrap in Vigor
Megastage
37 Smite the Monstrous
38 Spellweaver Volute
39 Acorn Harvest
40 Child of Alara
41 Centaur Safeguard
42 Centaur Safeguard
43 Twinning Glass
44 Divine Congregation
45 Spellweaver Helix
46 Spider Spawning
47 Spider Spawning
48 Worldfire
49 Bayou
50 Titania, Protector of Argoth
51 Wormfang Behemoth
Final Stages
52 Polluted Dead
53 Frightshroud Courier
54 Simian Spirit Guide
55 Goblin Kites
56 Old Man of the Sea
57 Xathrid Gorgon
Final Layers
58 Tribal Unity
59 Sphinx of Enlightenment
Startup
60 Eureka
We need one Explosives to get one haste Scattershot Archer, which means 2 haste Moggcatchers, then another Explosives to make a haste Goblin Lookout. Also "2 Scattershot Archer + 1 Moggcatcher" looks similarly.
In this deck, startup is quite hard (against Dual Nature-based quick start, e.g. this classic deck). We are very short of mana.
In the startup, Retract/Hurkyl's Recall/Rebuild is not a destructive card, but able to gain mana and comsumable artifacts. Prepare a Mirrorworks trigger of Vedalken Orrery (or Twinning Glass ability in my proposal deck), then return artifacts. After Vedalken Orrery pop out, play Mirrorworks, Panharmonicon, Mana Vault (get 2 tokens), Mox Pearl and Mox Emerald. We gain 5WG, subtracted by 2 for Mirrorworks-Vedalken Orrery (or 1 in my deck), and by 2 for token Mirror of Fate to reuse Retract/Hurkyl's Recall/Rebuild, so there is 3 mana (4 mana in my deck) of net gain. This instant is cast via Goblin Dark-Dwellers, which is reused by Smite the Monstrous, which is reused by paying life via Acorn Harvest. 20 life (6 flashbacks) is enough to build some enchantments and TYS counting number.
That is an important usage in startup. But it might lead to infinity in usual play.
Hyperstage, Megastage and Gigastage all assume that "we need haste Metallurgeons to continue processing. If there is no, we can't go further. The only way to get haste Metallurgeon is using some PB/BM triggers in "trigger groups" at below. It forces us to do so, so no infinite". However, due to the startup process, this might be not true.
Take Child of Alara-based megastage as example.
We prepare the come-back of Vedalken Orrery and Omniscience, then flashback Acorn Harvest in cost of 3 life. Cast Smite the Monstrous, get TYS triggers, which get (many, even with only 1 TYS + 1 PB on battlefield) PB triggers, which bounce Goblin Dark-Dwellers so we can reuse Retract/Hurkyl's Recall/Rebuild. After some growth, destroy Child of Alara and gain 3 life from Centaur Safeguard. After Vedalken Orrery and Omniscience pop out, we can again spend 3 life for the same thing.
Hyperstage seems safe: for example, in my deck, in a dual cycle, we need to
But for megastage, there are many MANY PB triggers bouncing Goblin Dark-Dwellers, we might have plenty of mana to go infinite.
Note: DO NOT read the following. I forgot that Child of Alara is Legendary.
Maybe not. Child of Alara is not so easy to fetch back.
Generally, the stack looks like this. Here shows a slice of megastage.
Scattershot Archer is fetch by group C.
To fetch Child of Alara, we might have hold it in hand at some time before, then play for its BM triggers inside the complicated "group B" triggers. But, how do we "hold it in hand"? Certainly it should be some PB - Smite the Monstrous trigger, but there are group A and group D.
If we use group D to bounce Child of Alara, that is very expensive. We lost all the googological content of layer, stage and hyperstage between D and B, making Child of Alara megastage a stage (alternative groups of TYS - Smite the Monstrous, PB - Smite the Monstrous and possibly BM - Child of Alara).
If we use group A to bounce Child of Alara, we should have a token Child of Alara when stack resolve down from A to B. This is quite tricky, separated into two phases.
Short phase. Start with Child of Alara card in hand. Stack is a little below "group B". Play Child of Alara for BM triggers (lower position in group B). We prepare a specific token Mimic Vat, and should keep it on battlefield without Retract. When we prepared enough (higher position in group B), activate the token Mimic Vat, without resolving.
Flashback Acorn Harvest, build group A on stack. In short phase, PB - Smite the Monstrous bounce Goblin Dark-Dwellers, which use Battle Cry (no Retract!), getting TYS - Battle Cry triggers, which can further build one Metallurgeon stage. Since we cannot Retract, this is the furthest we can do.
When group A resolve down to final PB - Smite the Monstrous, we hold Goblin Dark-Dwellers in hand. Final PB - Smite the Monstrous kill Child of Alara, imprinting on that specific token Mimic Vat, but don't let the Child of Alara trigger resolve.
In response, we play Goblin Dark-Dwellers, Retract the token Mimic Vat along with other artifacts.
Notice: for last known information of that token Mimic Vat, it remembered the Child of Alara card.
Stack resolve. Down to the activated ability of that Mimic Vat, token Child of Alara is out.
Get Vedalken Orrery and Omniscience back. Put Child of Alara into graveyard.
Then BM - Child of Alara fetch it.
Now there is Child of Alara card and token on battlefield.
Long phase. Start with Child of Alara card on battlefield, along with its token copy. Normally push abilities on stack. At group A, use one PB - Smite the Monstrous to bounce Child of Alara. Normally play. There can be many stages above this. When stack resolve down to final PB - Smite the Monstrous above B, kill the token Child of Alara.
Actually, we can also prepare token Child of Alara when we successively resolve down many hyperstages. Each time we need Short phase to get such a token.
Back to the startup playing. What if we continuely play short phase without haste Metallurgeon? Well, we can only get one Retract for each short phase play, rewarding 7 mana. But we need more mana than this.
Okay. That looks safe.Still unsafe. We can alternatively play short phase (which gets very few growth) and long phase (which allows a lot growth), both using the startup playing, without Metallurgeon.
EDIT:
Another problem about megastage. When we end up a long phase, use several PB - Smite the Monstrous triggers, we play Goblin Dark-Dwellers to Retract, then PB trigger bounce Goblin Dark-Dwellers, finally destroy Child of Alara. Down to the preparation abilities, we have both Engineered Explosives and Goblin Dark-Dwellers in hand. There is one stage between group B and group C (fetching Scattershot Archer), but we can build two groups from Engineered Explosives and Goblin Dark-Dwellers. Net gain one stage. So this will go infinite.
It is not a hyperstage specific problem. As long as each stage requires one play of Engineered Explosives or one ETB of Goblin Dark-Dwellers, there is the problem.
What is the infinite loop that occurs when we have plenty of mana?
Edit: Yeah, that's one of the biggest problems (if not the biggest problem) with the megastage/gigastage constructions; the sweepers for the higher stage levels force us to bring stuff back to our hand, but that allows us to profit a bit in the lower stage/hyperstage/megastage. The usual idea is to either make the payment negate the gain (for example, we would have Chatter of the Squirrel at the lower stage level based on green mana, and Acorn Harvest at the higher stage level based on life, but also requiring a payment of green), or somehow force us to expend the extra resources to restart the transition. For example, I think Stakfish used Goblin Dark-Dwellers to cast Bone Harvest in one or more decks, in order to make the transition work.
Right now, the megastage payment (Acorn Harvest) doesn't seem suited to make us pay a hyperstage resource, so it may be necessary to force us to spend two hyperstage resources to restart the megastage transition. That may be a tall order, but I'm not sure what else we could do.
Well, I guess a third option would be to have Goblin Dark-Dwellers and/or Engineered Explosives not wind up in our hand without losing them for good. But again, I don't have any details on how to do it.
Ideally, to grow a stage/hyperstage/megastage on the stack, the deck forces abilities of a layer/stage/hyperstage below them to reduce. Due to this reduce, there is no infinite loop.
However, there may be some way to play: an intended way using Metallurgeon to reuse artifacts and gain mana, and a special way using Retract. Special way doesn't reduce abilities of a layer/stage/hyperstage below the stage/hyperstage/megastage (on stack). Superfacially there is no change on the stack, but we can still get more combo permanents and TYS counting numbers.
If we gain few mana but spend more, this special play won't last long; to get more combo permanents and TYS counting numbers, we can do better with usual (intended) play. If we gain plenty mana but spend few, this special play will go infinite.
Also for the "EDIT". If you've read my writing about how to fetch Child of Alara by its BM trigger, you can conclude that:
But then, how to get it back to battlefield after its death?
Also, there are some decks with only one Centaur Safeguard. How to get it back to battlefield after its death?
And third question. How to get Centaur Safeguard back after Worldfire clean everything, but not trigger Verdant Succession?
And fourth question. If we hold Goblin Dark-Dwellers in hand, we can get BM triggers for it. If we have cheap way to kill Goblin Dark-Dwellers, those triggers could turn into many hyperstage resources.
Okay. Now I understand something.
1. We don't use BM for Child of Alara. Instead, we use Verdant Succession.
The death of Child of Alara will trigger its LTB and Verdant Succession. Put LTB above Verdant Succession on the stack.
In response we use Perpetual Timepiece (or Mimic Vat + Mirror of Fate) to put Child of Alara in library.
After LTB sweep out everything, Child of Alara go back to battlefield.
In this method, we always keep both Goblin Dark-Dwellers and Engineered Explosives in hand on sweeper.
BM - Child of Alara may be used when Worldfire clean out everything.
3. Use Natural Order as life gain sorcery.
Flashback Spider Spawning, countered, get Spellweaver Helix triggered.
We first cast Eureka and Acorn Harvest (not relavent), then Natural Order, which kills Centaur Safeguard (giving us 3 life), and finally Worldfire. All 4 sorceries have their Cephalid Shrine triggers, plus 4 Spellweaver Volute triggers, along with Verdant Succession triggers of Centaur Safeguard. We manage the stack as this:
Then Spellweaver Volute cast Smite the Monstrous.
So we have
Every two Verdant Succession triggers bring out 2 Centaur Safeguard cards, then we flashback the Acorn Harvest (we used up the 3 life from casting Natural Order). When that is done, we gain 6 life, and both Centaur Safeguard cards are out of battlefield.
Repeat this. Every 2 Verdant Succession triggers give us 3 life.
After all the Verdant Succession triggers done, we can continue building stack.
When the stack resolve down, before Worldfire, put a Centaur Safeguard card in library.
After Worldfire sweeper, Natural Order resolve, fetching one Centaur Safeguard. The other card is exiled.
Use a PB - Metallurgeon to bounce Metallurgeon card, replay for BM triggers.
Use a BM - Metallurgeon to bring it back.
Then use the new haste Metallurgeon to push PB - Metallurgeon on stack.
When they resolve down here, Engineered Explosives is also back due to Retract. We are back to the original state, with one more alternative dual layers of PB/BM - Metallurgeon triggers.
Each time we use Engineered Explosives with X=2 in this way, we also make one more alternative dual layers of Metallurgeon triggers.
We could also continue from the Graham's Number challenge, to other goalposts or deck sizes. 7/8/9 card sizes would be interesting; do we have anything that beats CaptainMarcia's best 7 card deck from their thread? It looks like it was:
Black Lotus
Channel
Chromatic Orrery
Devilish Valet
ELemental Mastery
Aura of Dominion
Conclave Phalanx
achieving 2^^2^^8.
Edit: We could possibly do better with Precursor Golem, maybe. Using an instant/sorcery that copies a target creature, along with an instant/sorcery that could target a single Golem and also recycle the previous sorcery, could do it; another copied instant/sorcery beyond that definitely would. However, the best I could do was, assuming an empty library:
Black Lotus
Show and Tell
Omniscience
Precursor Golem
Twinflame
Wheel of Sun and Moon
Sudden Strength
This gets more than 2^^2^^6 Precursor Golems; we have more hasted Golems than that, but I believe less than 2^^2^^7.
Trickery mills Gridlock and plays Bolas's Citadel. (Now 1 card in hand, 8 in library.) Citadel plays Thousand-Year Storm (13 life) followed by Orvar and Double Major (7 life, storm 2). TYS means we now have three Orvars.
We next cast Elemental Uprising from our library (5 life, storm 3) targeting Spire. We let the Orvar triggers resolve before TYS, so we can animate two of the three tokens in addition to the original tapped Spire. Next, we cast Prepare from our library (3 life, storm 4) targeting the original Spire four times, generating three more tokens and boosting it to 12/12 lifelink. We'll also use the untaps to generate CCC.
We tap the Spire again for R (2 life) and spend all our mana to cast Ardent Elementalist from our hand, which returns Prepare//Fight. We tap the big Spire and one of the other animated ones to re-cast Prepare (1 life, storm 5) with the original targeting Ardent Elementalist, three copies boosting the big Spire to 18/18, and the last one untapping the other Spire. The Orvars make three more Elementalists, which retrieve Tibalt's Trickery, Double Major, and Gridlock.
Next, go to combat. The big Spire swing for 18 lifelink, putting our opponent at 2 and us at 19. We have six untapped Spires.
After combat, we can cast Toralf from our library (15 life), then hold priority and do the next steps with him on the stack.
[Disclaimer: There's definitely better ways to do this part, I realized after typing up most of it that optimizing for TYS copies is better.]
We tap two Spires to cast Gridlock at X=1 (14 life, storm 6). All the Gridlocks will tap an Elementalist, causing three Orvar triggers. The first one resolves, making an Elementalist that retrieves Prepare//Fight. Another two Spires let us cast Prepare again (13 life, storm 7), with the original targeting Orvar and the copies targeting the big Spire, untapping it six times and letting us tap it six more times for CCCCC. This makes two more Orvars, for a total of 5. The second Orvar trigger lets us bring back Prepare and do the same thing (12 life, storm 8). We go up to 9 Orvars and get a bunch more mana. (By this point I don't think there's a point in continuing to track colorless mana or Spires, the important thing is the life to colored mana conversion.)
The third Orvar trigger brings back Prepare again. We'll hold onto it for now and cast Double Major on Toralf (10 life, storm 9). We let the stack resolve and end up with 10 Toralfs. Next, we cast our final card, Slaughter Specialist (8 life) and hold priority again.
Prepare goes back on Elementalist (7 life, storm 10) to get another 9 Orvar-Elementalist triggers. Most of the Prepare copies keep going to the big Spire, but we'll need to toss one to a Toralf. As the Spire keeps untapping, we'll drop to 1 life to make UUUUGG. We recur Gridlock this time, using the first (UUUGG, storm 11) to increase our Orvars to 17 and the second (UUGG, storm 12) to increase them to 33. The third Gridlock (UGG, storm 12) targets Thousand-Year Storm, making 33 copies of it for a total of 34.
The next trigger gives us Double Major back, which goes on Slaughter Specialist (G, storm 13), resulting in a total of 410 Specialists. The remaining triggers pick our instants back up, with Prepare//Fight ending up as the only one left.
We use our last mana to cast Fight, which gets copied a ton of times to let Toralf do his thing. The first one to resolve will want to throw the big Spire at one of the tokens the opponent gets from the Specialists, while the others will use the Specialists themselves since they'll be bigger by then.
As we gain life from the lifelink Toralf, we keep using Gridlock to expand our team. To start a chain, we use Gridlock on an Elementalist to trigger all of our Orvars, then use Tibalt's Trickery to counter Gridlock and put it back in the graveyard where the Elementalist copies can pick it back up as they appear. From there, we can use the Gridlock recursions to spend our life on copying Spires and Specialists if we're running low, and otherwise on piling up Orvars and Toralfs. Repeat for however long it goes.
I don't have the pioneer cutoff very set in my head yet and keep thinking of card that aren't in the format at all... so the only possible improvement to the card choices in that strategy is something like
leave // chance over gridlock though I'm not even sure if its worth it as saving colorless mana at that point in the combo is pretty moot and it does result in slightly fewer copies.(Its a shame leyline of abundance is banned or we could cut a mox or two while also improving our ability to combo.) Edit: I misread Orvar again.Optimizing for early TYS copies does seem better but its difficult so see what the actually optimal line is. As I suspect it involves some more subtle choices.
I think there might be a better toralf stage, or maybe even a spell stage without toralf?
Yeah, I considered Leave but each Orvar still only makes one token. Although now that you mention it, the fact that multiple Orvars can pick different targets to trigger on could be beneficial if you want to use one spell to copy multiple different cards. But Gridlock can do that with trivial colorless mana payment so it'd just be a change to the execution.
Hmm, but using the permanent bouncing of Divide by Zero to bounce our mana resource doesn't go well with Orvar, since Orvar would produce multiple copies of our mana resource from multiple copies of the spell. So we would have to go without Orvar, which could slow things down.