So we need "the combo number" many tapped Metallurgeons, then one effective resolve of Battle Cry untaps them.
Let me think about how many things we need to get start.
The stack should looks like this at least:
Top
group of Metallurgeon-PB triggers
group of Metallurgeon-BM triggers
group of Metallurgeon-PB triggers
group of Metallurgeon-BM triggers
...
group of Metallurgeon-PB triggers
group of Metallurgeon-BM triggers
group of Battle Cry-TYS triggers (this is the top hyperstage transition, so we have this group of triggers)
group of Goblin Dark-Dwellers ETB triggers (still can cast Rebuild)
group of Mirrorworks triggers for Vedalken Orrery
Metallurgeon-PB trigger
group of Metallurgeon-BM triggers
group of Metallurgeon-PB triggers
group of Metallurgeon-BM triggers
...
group of Metallurgeon-PB triggers
group of Metallurgeon-BM triggers
group of Metallurgeon-PB triggers
group of Rebuild-TYS triggers (not the top hyperstage transition, so we have this group of triggers)
group of Goblin Dark-Dwellers ETB triggers (fizzle due to lack of target)
group of Mirrorworks triggers for Vedalken Orrery
Metallurgeon-PB trigger - #1
Metallurgeon-BM trigger - #2
group of Metallurgeon-PB triggers - #3
group of Metallurgeon-BM triggers
...
group of Metallurgeon-PB triggers
group of Metallurgeon-BM triggers
group of Metallurgeon-PB triggers
group of Rebuild-TYS triggers
group of Goblin Dark-Dwellers ETB triggers (fizzle)
group of Mirrorworks triggers for Vedalken Orrery
Metallurgeon-PB trigger
Metallurgeon-BM trigger
group of Metallurgeon-PB triggers
Maybe other abilities
When we build the stack above the #1, the combo number is X.
After things resolve down, the combo number goes to approximately f_{w*2}(X).
Top
group of Mirrorworks triggers for Vedalken Orrery
Metallurgeon-PB trigger - #1
Metallurgeon-BM trigger - #2
group of Metallurgeon-PB triggers - #3
group of Metallurgeon-BM triggers
...
group of Metallurgeon-PB triggers
group of Metallurgeon-BM triggers
group of Metallurgeon-PB triggers
group of Rebuild-TYS triggers
group of Goblin Dark-Dwellers ETB triggers (fizzle)
group of Mirrorworks triggers for Vedalken Orrery
Metallurgeon-PB trigger
Metallurgeon-BM trigger
group of Metallurgeon-PB triggers
Maybe other abilities
Get the token Vedalken Orrery. Now there is no haste Metallurgeon yet. The group of #3 is small, much smaller than f_{w*2}(X), and may be even smaller than X.
Get a haste Metallurgeon from #1. #2 fetch the card.
Resolve one trigger of #3, bounce Metallurgeon. Replay and counter, get approximately f_{w*2}(X) many triggers of #2.
Activate the haste Metallurgeon, get many triggers of #1, and destroy the card.
The exact number of triggers in #1 is not important. #2 is, because every trigger in #2 can lead to one tapped haste Metallurgeon, on average.
When there is one trigger of #1 and one trigger of #2, we stop at approximately f_{w*2}(X) many tapped haste Metallurgeons, although we only have 0 untapped haste Metallurgeon.
1. Underground Sea is probably a holdover from an older version of the deck that used it to cast Show and Tell to start. It's not necessary in this deck, but probably wasn't changed because it didn't cause a problem.
2. I know we can use Smite the Monstrous to destroy Goblin Dark-Dwellers, but I'm not quite sure how we recycle it after the Smite the Monstrous spell copies have been used up.
3. This might be another case where we had March of the Machines instead of Karn, Silver Golem for no particular reason. I know there have been decks where Karn was too convenient, allowing us to single out artifacts that allowed for some kind of infinite. But I don't see any such problem here at first glance.
If there is Underground Sea for U, a quick start might be Flashing the Academy Rector instead of playing and then killing it. Remove Mox Pearl from the deck. Is Flash okay (not going infinite in combo with other cards)?
It seems that Goblin Welder is a fetching thing. Does it involve the Muzzio problem (grow the group of stage creature-PB triggers, then do the hyperstage transition to fetch stage creature and regenerate the hyperstage key resource)?
Using Flash to kill Centaur Safeguard - that require Centaur Safeguard in our hand. To bounce it we need to target it, which is very expensive (just as expensive as killing it via Horobi), such as spending R on Goblin Kites.
Reforge the Soul has the easiest start, but it can only apply 7 times (against with 53 times for the other two), leading to the smallest final number. So this is only for the case where the other two are unable to start.
Some of the starts got really narrow and we didnt verify every deck's start to be possible, though generally there are a few easy but suboptimal lines possible. I remember getting into the weeds on optimizing one of the starts where initial mana was really tight.
In general it takes about 3 draws to get started with Words of Wisdom/Sphinx of Enlightenment (one to enable looping, one to make consecrated sphinxes, and one to draw the rest of the deck) so we'd get about 50 uses of it as a bottom action.
The current busy beaver deck uses Floating-Dream Zubera, which we can hack for each creature type (not used in computation) but need to avoid decking ourselves.
With Flash, is it possible to remove Horobi, Death's Wail from the deck? Though we won't have the stage below the bottom hyperstage transition. (The bottom layer would be a hyperstage transition)
Edit:
Also I'm not sure that my new organization of the deck is optimal. Any suggestions to make it more clear?
Edit2:
hmm I think there's a problem with the W stage now that we don't have Harmonic prodigy anymore.
We spend W to activate Aegis automation, and get a Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient trigger above that, but we can't have both of these bounce Gaurdian of the Guildpact without fizzling. I think we used Bolt Bend to solve this before, but it seems like there should be a better solution.
Also, looking at the end, we are only using Marchesa's Smuggler to get triggers for search the premises that then needs steal artifact, three card slots for one layer is pretty inefficient. (I guess it is also serving as a 2 mana blue creature)
The Search the Premises part gives us two layers, one for getting lots of triggers and one for getting a lot of Clue tokens each trigger, but yeah, there's probably better layer sequences out there.
Yeah I was thinking we couldn't steal all of the clues back because of march of the machines killing them but we can via Copy Enchantment, and then just hold priority and sac them all.
Edit: we'd need to equip the bracers at instant speed somehow, so that needs another card. I thought there was a card that was a mix of steal artifact/Sigarda's Aid. Thieving Skydiver is close but only equips to itself.
@hyp_cos: Usually the way we get creatures back on the battlefield is via Bloodbond March, but of course you need some way to bounce them in the hyperstage. I'll try to look at the decks when I have time.
I'm really busy this week, I think next week I'll drop a line to Stakfish and Iijil, and see if we can get these things hammered out...
With World at War being pushed out as the 61st card.
Edit: just to confirm Sigarda's aid would allow us to mess up computation as we could death pit offering without opalescence in play, and then steal artifact the opponent's vedalken orrery before coat of arms dies. So Magnetic theft is the right choice.
I think that R Transition is missing a discard/life cost. We'd bounce Aegis Automaton in the higher Life Stage, keep it through the transition via Wormfang Behemoth and the discard it in the lower Life Stage to gain 2 extra life - going infinite. Unless I'm missing something?
Using Gravitic Punch as the doubled sorcery again would use up that discard. Which I imagine is the reason it was used in the first place. But then we are back to the problem with losing access to Aegis Automaton.
Adding a sorcery like Breath of Life to the transition would solve that access issue and shouldn't cause problems with the hyperstage. But I can't find a variant that wouldn't go infinite with the U and W Stages.
Hmm, you may have a point, I think there was something like using recoup to flashback essence harvest for life, but that didn't work properly with spellweaver helix, so I swapped which spell was doubled but that opened up your line...
If we double a black sorcery, we can put recoup on the helix and loop without using red.
If we double recoup, we can smuggle aegis automation/2 life though the transition.
If we double gravitic punch, we lose access to our artifact creature.
Maybe double Flash of Defiance? Well that (and i guess gravitic punch) can be flashed back via recoup instead...
Flashing back via Recoup doesn't seem to be bad, as that would cost an extra red. The problem with double Flash of Defiance is that it costs 3 life, and we only gain back 2 from bouncing Aegis Automaton. Perhaps this is fixable though. If we can bring 2 cards back to our hand through the transition, we can gain 4 life, and then having to spend 3 life puts us at 1 extra life, which we can't do anything with.
Edit: I'm thinking this can work with Urborg Syphon-Mage and Radiant Fountain; Radiant Fountain gets us 2 life, then we can use Urborg Syphon-Mage to pump that up to 4 life, allowing us to flashback Flash of Defiance.
Well the trick is we can put recoup on the spellweaver helix, so we flashback for the mana cost of the card, without actually playing for recoup again.
not fizzling it on a black spell is easy as we can leave worldfire out and just gain life forever. but maybe managing worldfire/tys makes it difficult on a red spell...
Adding an extra land lets us make too much red via blood moon so that would push out the crucible of the spirit dragon and we'd need new ending layers.
Maybe we can avoid the problem by not using Wormfang Behemoth? For the hyperstage part of the deck I think we only need it to keep our artifacts and enchantments safe. So maybe we can include Open the Vaults to cast during the transition instead. The only card I see that would be problematic with it is Black Lotus. So going for another start could be enough.
But I the timing of the cast would be very tough to get right. We need to resolve it after Worldfire to get artifacts/enchantments back. But if we put it on the stack from the same Spellweaver trigger those are all exiled. To get Pull from Eternity in between we'd need to use a Worldfire from a TYS trigger. I guess we can do that because we wouldn't lose access to Blood Moon in this configuration. But that also means we would need to switch to another method of making sure that we can not generate too much red from the transition.
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Let me think about how many things we need to get start.
The stack should looks like this at least:
After things resolve down, the combo number goes to approximately f_{w*2}(X).
Get a haste Metallurgeon from #1. #2 fetch the card.
Resolve one trigger of #3, bounce Metallurgeon. Replay and counter, get approximately f_{w*2}(X) many triggers of #2.
Activate the haste Metallurgeon, get many triggers of #1, and destroy the card.
The exact number of triggers in #1 is not important. #2 is, because every trigger in #2 can lead to one tapped haste Metallurgeon, on average.
When there is one trigger of #1 and one trigger of #2, we stop at approximately f_{w*2}(X) many tapped haste Metallurgeons, although we only have 0 untapped haste Metallurgeon.
Now we can use a Moggcatcher, get Goblin Dark-Dwellers ETB triggers. Cast Battle Cry to get approximately f_{w*2}(X) many untapped haste Metallurgeons, then cast-counter Rebuild, get its TYS trigger.
Okay it works. Now it is time to dive into some details of a Moggcatcher deck. Which one would you suggest?
And what is the specific deck for the "pinned (see page 1)" post?
From its words, I concluded that
Anyway, I'm still not aware of the setup after a Child of Alara sweeper or a Worldfire sweeper.
And, in hyperstage transition, Strongarm Thug reuses itself and Moggcatcher within exactly one activation of Scattershot Archer, but how to get Goblin Dark-Dwellers off?
It's been a while since I looked at this old version of the hyperstage, I'll study it further.
1. What is the point to use Underground Sea for U?
2. I don't see how to get Goblin Dark-Dwellers from battlefield to library... We need this once per Moggcatcher activation.
3. Is March of the Machines necessary over Karn, Silver Golem?
1. Underground Sea is probably a holdover from an older version of the deck that used it to cast Show and Tell to start. It's not necessary in this deck, but probably wasn't changed because it didn't cause a problem.
2. I know we can use Smite the Monstrous to destroy Goblin Dark-Dwellers, but I'm not quite sure how we recycle it after the Smite the Monstrous spell copies have been used up.
3. This might be another case where we had March of the Machines instead of Karn, Silver Golem for no particular reason. I know there have been decks where Karn was too convenient, allowing us to single out artifacts that allowed for some kind of infinite. But I don't see any such problem here at first glance.
It seems that Goblin Welder is a fetching thing. Does it involve the Muzzio problem (grow the group of stage creature-PB triggers, then do the hyperstage transition to fetch stage creature and regenerate the hyperstage key resource)?
Goblin Welder isn't a main part of the combo like Muzzio I don't think, I believe it's there to recover after a Worldfire.
And about the other deck: there is only one Centaur Safeguard, so how to take it on after getting its dying trigger from Child of Alara?
Stakfish had a trick for using only one Centaur Safeguard, but I don't remember what it is. We probably need to talk to him again.
Reforge the Soul has the easiest start, but it can only apply 7 times (against with 53 times for the other two), leading to the smallest final number. So this is only for the case where the other two are unable to start.
Words of Wisdom can be boosted by Thousand-Year Storm, and reused by Goblin Dark-Dwellers, a "lower layered" card. However, one disadvantage is that it requires Mirror of Fate and Perpetual Timepiece for each reuse.
Sphinx of Enlightenment can be boosted by Panharmonicon, and reused by Smite the Monstrous, a "higher layered" card.
To get full usage of Words of Wisdom or Sphinx of Enlightenment, we need to setup all cards (deck without Consecrated Sphinx), or at least get massive amount of Consecrated Sphinxs (deck with it). Details are quite complicated...
In general it takes about 3 draws to get started with Words of Wisdom/Sphinx of Enlightenment (one to enable looping, one to make consecrated sphinxes, and one to draw the rest of the deck) so we'd get about 50 uses of it as a bottom action.
The current busy beaver deck uses Floating-Dream Zubera, which we can hack for each creature type (not used in computation) but need to avoid decking ourselves.
To imprint a creature into Mimic Vat, we
We cannot get 2 or more untapped haste Metallurgeons? If so, failed.
Okay, we don't have Mimic Vat AND the haste Metallurgeon due to Rebuild, whatever order of it and Flash.
Very bad idea.
1 Coat of Arms
2 Xathrid Necromancer
3 Artificial Evolution
4 Arcbond
5 Comeuppance
6 Dralnu's Crusade
Starting a Computation
7 Opalescence
8 Wrong Turn
9 Death Pit Offering
10 Goblin Boom Keg
11 March of the Machines
Utility: Enchantments/Artifacts
12 Vedalken Orrery
13 Dual Nature
14 Copy Enchantment
15 Stern Proctor
Utility: Spells
16 Thousand-Year Storm
17 Spellweaver Volute
18 Pull from Eternity
Utility: Creatures
19 Bloodbond March
20 Cephalid Shrine
21 Soul Separator
22 Mana Echoes
23 Draconian Cylix
24 Vampire Envoy
25 Alhammarret's Archive
26 Bala Ged Scorpion
27 K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth
28 Lingering Souls
R Transition
29 Spellweaver Helix
30 Worldfire
31 Essence Harvest
32 Recoup
33 Recoup
34 Restore
35 Blood Moon
36 Panharmonicon
37 Wormfang Behemoth
U stage
38 Stolen By the Fae
39 Chrome Mox
W stage
40 Aegis Automaton
41 Guardian of the Guildpact
42 Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient
43 Black Lotus
44 Show and Tell
45 Omniscience
46 Floating-Dream Zubera
47 Marchesa's Smuggler
Layers
48 Crucible of the Spirit Dragon
49 Amulet of Vigor
50 Animist's Awakening
51 Arbiter of the Ideal
52 Tolarian Kraken
53 Blue Sun's Zenith
54 Search the Premises
55 Moraug, Fury of Akoum
56 World at War
Misc utility
57 Doubling Season
58 Drafna's Restoration
59 Uproot
60 Steal Artifact
Edit:
Also I'm not sure that my new organization of the deck is optimal. Any suggestions to make it more clear?
Edit2:
hmm I think there's a problem with the W stage now that we don't have Harmonic prodigy anymore.
We spend W to activate Aegis automation, and get a Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient trigger above that, but we can't have both of these bounce Gaurdian of the Guildpact without fizzling. I think we used Bolt Bend to solve this before, but it seems like there should be a better solution.
Also, looking at the end, we are only using Marchesa's Smuggler to get triggers for search the premises that then needs steal artifact, three card slots for one layer is pretty inefficient. (I guess it is also serving as a 2 mana blue creature)
The Search the Premises part gives us two layers, one for getting lots of triggers and one for getting a lot of Clue tokens each trigger, but yeah, there's probably better layer sequences out there.
Yeah I was thinking we couldn't steal all of the clues back because of march of the machines killing them but we can via Copy Enchantment, and then just hold priority and sac them all.
Edit: we'd need to equip the bracers at instant speed somehow, so that needs another card. I thought there was a card that was a mix of steal artifact/Sigarda's Aid.
Thieving Skydiver is close but only equips to itself.
@Bezjosh99 Welcome. Could you be a bit more specific about that? What deck/cards are you referring to?
I'm really busy this week, I think next week I'll drop a line to Stakfish and Iijil, and see if we can get these things hammered out...
1 Coat of Arms
2 Xathrid Necromancer
3 Artificial Evolution
4 Arcbond
5 Comeuppance
6 Dralnu's Crusade
Starting a Computation
7 Opalescence
8 Wrong Turn
9 Death Pit Offering
10 Goblin Boom Keg
11 March of the Machines
Utility: Enchantments/Artifacts
12 Vedalken Orrery
13 Dual Nature
14 Copy Enchantment
15 Stern Proctor
Utility: Spells
16 Thousand-Year Storm
17 Spellweaver Volute
18 Pull from Eternity
Utility: Creatures
19 Bloodbond March
20 Cephalid Shrine
21 Soul Separator
22 Mana Echoes
23 Draconian Cylix
24 Vampire Envoy
25 Alhammarret's Archive
26 Bala Ged Scorpion
27 K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth
28 Lingering Souls
R Transition
29 Spellweaver Helix
30 Worldfire
31 Essence Harvest
32 Recoup
33 Recoup
34 Restore
35 Blood Moon
36 Panharmonicon
37 Wormfang Behemoth
U stage
38 Stolen By the Fae
39 Chrome Mox
W stage
40 Guardian of the Guildpact
41 Aegis Automaton
42 Illusionist's bracers
43 Magnetic Theft
44 Black Lotus
45 Show and Tell
46 Omniscience
47 Floating-Dream Zubera
48 Marchesa's Smuggler
Layers
49 Crucible of the Spirit Dragon
50 Amulet of Vigor
51 Animist's Awakening
52 Arbiter of the Ideal
53 Tolarian Kraken
54 Blue Sun's Zenith
55 Search the Premises
56 Moraug, Fury of Akoum
61 World at War
Misc utility
57 Doubling Season
58 Drafna's Restoration
59 Uproot
60 Steal Artifact
With World at War being pushed out as the 61st card.
Edit: just to confirm Sigarda's aid would allow us to mess up computation as we could death pit offering without opalescence in play, and then steal artifact the opponent's vedalken orrery before coat of arms dies. So Magnetic theft is the right choice.
Using Gravitic Punch as the doubled sorcery again would use up that discard. Which I imagine is the reason it was used in the first place. But then we are back to the problem with losing access to Aegis Automaton.
Adding a sorcery like Breath of Life to the transition would solve that access issue and shouldn't cause problems with the hyperstage. But I can't find a variant that wouldn't go infinite with the U and W Stages.
If we double a black sorcery, we can put recoup on the helix and loop without using red.
If we double recoup, we can smuggle aegis automation/2 life though the transition.
If we double gravitic punch, we lose access to our artifact creature.
Maybe double Flash of Defiance? Well that (and i guess gravitic punch) can be flashed back via recoup instead...
Edit: I'm thinking this can work with Urborg Syphon-Mage and Radiant Fountain; Radiant Fountain gets us 2 life, then we can use Urborg Syphon-Mage to pump that up to 4 life, allowing us to flashback Flash of Defiance.
not fizzling it on a black spell is easy as we can leave worldfire out and just gain life forever. but maybe managing worldfire/tys makes it difficult on a red spell...
Adding an extra land lets us make too much red via blood moon so that would push out the crucible of the spirit dragon and we'd need new ending layers.
Maybe we can avoid the problem by not using Wormfang Behemoth? For the hyperstage part of the deck I think we only need it to keep our artifacts and enchantments safe. So maybe we can include Open the Vaults to cast during the transition instead. The only card I see that would be problematic with it is Black Lotus. So going for another start could be enough.
But I the timing of the cast would be very tough to get right. We need to resolve it after Worldfire to get artifacts/enchantments back. But if we put it on the stack from the same Spellweaver trigger those are all exiled. To get Pull from Eternity in between we'd need to use a Worldfire from a TYS trigger. I guess we can do that because we wouldn't lose access to Blood Moon in this configuration. But that also means we would need to switch to another method of making sure that we can not generate too much red from the transition.