No, we keep a single Recoup and add two Essence Harvest/Tendrils of Agony. That way triggering the Spellweaver Helix costs extra life and to get that we need to discard the cards that we preserve in hand through the transition. Though those are some nice, useful options
Though thinking about it I don't think adding a second Aegis Automaton works. We would be able to produce too much life in the primary stage by taking advantage of all the bounces of a Pull from Eternity layer: We can use all TYS triggers on PfE to bounce both Automatons. Each time we can discard one Automaton to gain 2 life and then cast the other to get it out of the graveyard and onto the battlefield again.
@hyp_cos: Sorry for not getting back to you for a while.
Yeah, it looks like Allay and Skull of Orm handle recycling our enchantments.
Goblin Dark-Dwellers is Championed by Changeling Hero; we then bounce Changeling Hero, and that puts Goblin Dark-Dwellers into play. Changeling Hero gets repeatedly bounced by Anaba Ancestor, which is our hyperstage creature; we use Engineered Explosives to destroy the nontoken Anaba Ancestor, triggering Mimic Vat and getting a token copy.
Well, I mean, we cannot reuse False Memories to get cards back to graveyard, when we are getting enchantments in the bottom layer.
Edit: How to get more enchantments
1. Clockwork Gnomes triggers many Psychic Battles
2. Due to 1, we can bounce Mana Vault, Mimic Vat, Skull of Orm and Mirror of Fate. Get their reuses via Mirrorworks.
3. Play Allay with buyback, triggering many Psychic Bettles
4. Due to 3, we can destroy enchantments, imprint and then get tokens via Mimic Vat.
5. Use Mirror of Fate to move enchantment from exile to library.
6. Use ??? to move enchantment from library to graveyard.
7. Use Skull of Orm to move enchantment from graveyard to hand.
8. We may replay the enchantment, then things from 4~8 repeat.
9. To stop the use of Allay, redirect its target to Opalescence, resolve Allay and destroy Opalescence, then use Skull of Orm to get card back to hand, then replay Opalescence.
Allay can be reused because it has buyback, but False Memories doesn't work in this way.
@FortyTwo
I don't know how switching to Retract is supposed to help? I think as long as we have a layer of triggers that can each bounce Aegis Automaton we can always use two of them to generate 2 life. Discard one -> play the other to get both on the battlefield -> resolve two triggers to bounce them.
@hyp_cos
a few posts after the decklist you linked, FortyTwo mentioned that "Verdant Succession tricks" remove the need to mill in the higher stages. Reverse engineering the tricks I figure that we can get Bloodbond March back to the battlefield from the library using a Verdant Succession trigger. No need for mill there.
To get non-green cards directly from exile to graveyard we can imprint a green card on the Mimic Vat that was used to exile them. The Vats ability puts them into the graveyard, again without need for mill. We then get the freshly exiled green card back as above.
The thought was that Retract also bounces Vedalken orrery, so we need to resolve down to a Dual nature trigger for that to get flash again. It still seems like not enough and messes with being able to set up computations the way we want to. (animating a new token goblin boom keg looks problematic.)
Curse past me for my vagueness! Such a lazy jerk always leaving work for current me.
I remembered re-imprinting on vat being a key part, but not further than that.
The thought is that instead of losing the aegis automation to the top discard, what if we pitched a black creature to the discard just under worldfire instead, then we can save the aegis automation in hand to use above?
Looking at it I'm kind of doubtful that it works, as our black creatures are pretty well accounted for.
Its also possible we want to recoup it for flashback? that line looks a little more promising.
2. How to get more haste Clockwork Gnomes after Hurkyl's Recall cleaned all of them?
3. I don't see the need of Wheel of Sun and Moon. Mimic Vat can move enchantment/artifact/creature from graveyard to exile, and Mirror of Fate can move it from exile to library. Is there some need for other cards?
And a ruling question: how to calculate the mana value (converted mana cost) from a mana cost with symbol?
Found it.
202.3e When calculating the mana value of an object with an {X} in its mana cost, X is treated as 0 while the object is not on the stack, and X is treated as the number chosen for it while the object is on the stack.
So Engineered Explosives and Chalice of the Void (and Mox Emerald) will die once animated.
1. Muzzio can turn blue into green from mox emerald.
2. Recast it, then wait for a psychic battle trigger from a previous clockwork gnomes activation. (I think?)
3. Basically right, but there's a sunburst corner case that makes things a little more complicated. Sunburst behaves differently based on if march of the machines is in play or not. It changes to give +1/+1 counters on creatures, but if it is animated, then it doesn't have charge counters.
sunburst always gives charge counters for EE, regardless of whether or not it will be animated.
702.44a Sunburst is a static ability that functions as an object is entering the battlefield. “Sunburst” means “If this object is entering the battlefield as a creature, ignoring any type-changing effects that would affect it, it enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it for each color of mana spent to cast it. Otherwise, it enters the battlefield with a charge counter on it for each color of mana spent to cast it.”
2.
Well... I'm not asking the usual stage operations about Clockwork Gnomes, which uses one PB trigger and one BM trigger below, both of Clockwork Gnomes itself, to recreate a token.
In this post, if we only use one Clockwork Gnomes-PB trigger (or one Clockwork Gnomes-BM trigger) in the X part, how to get many haste Clockwork Gnomes while there are Hurkyl's Recall present on stack? (To get many alternative PB and BM triggers of Clockwork Gnomes above Hurkyl's Recall)
If we can't, at least we should be able to gain one haste Clockwork Gnomes on average, then gain many haste Clockwork Gnomes per group of Clockwork Gnomes-PB trigger (or one Clockwork Gnomes-BM trigger) in the X part.
To be honest, I really need to re-familiarize myself with the deck to be confident with any answers.
If I recall correctly, we get Clockwork Gnomes tokens through Goryo's Vengeance and Muzzio, Visionary Architect. Goryo's Vengeance gets us hasted copies of Muzzio, and we can tap them to repeatedly retrieve the nontoken Clockwork Gnomes, which we can target with Clockwork Gnomes to net a profit in Gnomes tokens. (but I don't remember the exact details at the moment)
But how to destroy Clockwork Gnomes the first time (for imprint), after Hurkyl's Recall deleted all the haste tokens? If we must use the Clockwork Gnomes-PB trigger below the Hurkyl's Recall (in the stack), then how to get 2 or more haste Clockwork Gnomes?
So, you need to create one hasted Clockwork Gnomes token, then you can build up your gigastage from that token, always making sure that there are Psychic Battle triggers from Clockwork Gnomes tokens below any sweeper. So, waiting below any stage are Clockwork Gnomes triggers from the stage below it, except for the bottommost stage in a hyperstage; the bottommost stage will have Clockwork Gnomes triggers waiting in the top stage of the next hyperstage below, and so on, until we get to the bottommost stage in the entire gigastage. We make sure we keep one token around in the bottommost stage, and then use the next additional stage to build up the entire gigastage from that one token. The very first Clockwork Gnomes token can be created from a hasted Xathrid Gorgon token, for instance. I'm not quite sure how to create the first hasted creature token period; of course we need to have a way to do that in any token-driven deck.
things in the Anaba Ancestor transition -cluster B
Hurkyl's Recall-TYS triggers
Hurkyl's Recall
things in the Anaba Ancestor transition
...
Downwards to other abilities
We need to get Engineered Explosives back to hand, so we must let a Hurkyl's Recall-TYS trigger resolve. After that, there is no artifact on battlefield, especially haste Clockwork Gnomes.
We may play the Clockwork Gnomes, but to destroy it onto Mimic Vat we must let an ability of group A resolve. Get one haste Clockwork Gnomes. Then we can have the card back to battlefield by Muzzio, Visionary Architect, which costs 3 Anaba Ancestor-PB triggers.
More detailed.
By the time we have made one haste Clockwork Gnomes, the card is in exile; one haste Anaba Ancestor on field with its card in hand; Engineered Explosives is in hand. The stack looks like this:
Top
group A
Downwards to other abilities
We cannot directly activate the haste Anaba Ancestor, otherwise we need to wait until cluster B to get the resource back (or never get it back?).
We need firstly to play Anaba Ancestor card, get BM trigger, then we can safely regenerate this haste Anaba Ancestor.
So the stack could be:
Now we can use the Anaba Ancestor-PB triggers to get Clockwork Gnomes card back to field.
If we let the last one of Anaba Ancestor-PB triggers (0 untapped haste Anaba Ancestor), and the BM trigger below it resolve, we can have the one untapped haste Anaba Ancestor back. However, the card will stay on battlefield instead of hand.
But wait, we still have Engineered Explosives. After getting Clockwork Gnomes card back to field, we use the PB to bounce Anaba Ancestor, then replay. The stack is:
where Anaba Ancestor card is on battlefield. Use to play Engineered Explosives, destroy Anaba Ancestor on Mimic Vat, get a haste token. Now the stack is:
Next the Anaba Ancestor-PB triggers (1 untapped haste Anaba Ancestor) is able to give Anaba Ancestor card on hand, with 1 untapped haste Anaba Ancestor. However, Engineered Explosives is gone; to get it back to hand, we need Hurkyl's Recall, which again erases our progress making haste Clockwork Gnomes.
And about the mana:
The start might be:
Bayou (G , 6 in hand)
Mox Emerald (GG, 5 in hand)
Simian Spirit Guide (GGR, 4 in hand)
Mana Vault (GGCCC, 3 in hand)
Eureka (C, 2 in hand)
But is there possible way to have 3 cards in hand at the play of Eureka?
I think we might use Mana Crypt + Simic Keyrune instead of Mana Vault + Eye of Ramos, while Emerald being the same. The start is:
Bayou (G, 6 in hand)
Mox Emerald (GG, 5 in hand)
Mana Crypt (GGCC, 4 in hand)
Eureka (3 in hand)
Simic Keyrune is the main mana source. Mana Crypt isn't.
Edit: I got why a single Simic Keyrune won't work. We need to animated artifact so that they can be bounced and replay. Simic Keyrune (and Simic Signet) only give 1 mana net gain, unable to animate other artifacts. So we indeed need Mana Vault.
But Simic Keyrune can still replace Eye of Ramos, without Muzzio pulling back an extra artifact (namely, Mox Emerald).
I'm pretty sure it's Muzzio, Visionary Architect generating the new Clockwork Gnomes tokens. I remember all the way back in the stage decks we realized that repeatedly fetching a creature card was enough to generate hasted tokens using a hasted tokens we already had, but I don't quite see how it's done at the moment.
For the setup, we need to have enough triggers to build and start computation from an empty board waiting on the stack, as we need the opponent to gain life to not kill them when we drain them with a syphon mage, which also needs to be on the stack. This caused a problem with Aegis Automaton because all of their Bloodbond March triggers are therefore also under the transition. But I think adding Call to the Netherworld fixes it as we can discard a black creature like K'rrik to the topmost syphon mage.
This is a little tricky: all of our black creatures are key to either the computation or the stage, so we can't have one waiting in hand to be discarded only when we are ready for the next worldfire.
Putting it below worldfire on the helix will fizzle it as pull from eternity would be too late.
But, if we put it on the helix above the worldfire instead and use the wormfang behemoth to carry it through the transition. It will fizzle too as it's target will be a new object due to being used in the above computations. (If we have TYS triggers for it, we also have TYS triggers for worldfire)
Instead, we put Recoup on the helix above worldfire, and that to target the Call to the Netherworld and hold a black creature in hand through the transition that way.
Now one concern is that we can use this to carry too many creatures through and gain too much life below the worldfire. But we need triggers to make a computation from an empty board above the syphon mage drain, and those triggers require k'rrik and the necromancer to not be in our hand. So that only leaves exactly Urborg syphon-mage itself and cuts us off of adding any other black creatures.
(This line is also why we need two recoups instead of two black sorceries, as we can regain flashback on them too cheaply by putting recoup on the helix.)
Hmm, what about Aegis Automaton? That isn't required for the computation, so if we can bring it back to our hand in the higher stage, we can discard it in the lower stage to gain 2 life.
Hmm, for the two black sorcery situation, we can cast Recoup from the graveyard, and that gives a black sorcery flashback. We then imprint Recoup on a Spellweaver Helix, and cast the black sorcery from the graveyard while another copy and Recoup are imprinted on Spellwever Helix. While the Spellweaver Helixes' triggers are on the stack, we put the black sorcery back in the library and mill it. Then we can resolve the triggers, and give the black sorcery flashback again. So we keep spending a black mana, and gain a lot more life/black mana with our beneficial sorcery. So yeah, that looks like a problem.
Well, we can have it on the battlefield, and then bounce it back to our hand. So, when we get back down to the lower stage, if we can do the computation, then we can discard the Automaton to Urborg Syphon-Mage, gaining 2 life, and then resolve a Bloodbond March trigger for the Automaton to bring back it back to the battlefield. There may be something in the transition that prevents this, but I don't see it yet.
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Though thinking about it I don't think adding a second Aegis Automaton works. We would be able to produce too much life in the primary stage by taking advantage of all the bounces of a Pull from Eternity layer: We can use all TYS triggers on PfE to bounce both Automatons. Each time we can discard one Automaton to gain 2 life and then cast the other to get it out of the graveyard and onto the battlefield again.
Switching back to drake familiar and retract, so we can't loop the Aegis Automations as easily?
Yeah, it looks like Allay and Skull of Orm handle recycling our enchantments.
Goblin Dark-Dwellers is Championed by Changeling Hero; we then bounce Changeling Hero, and that puts Goblin Dark-Dwellers into play. Changeling Hero gets repeatedly bounced by Anaba Ancestor, which is our hyperstage creature; we use Engineered Explosives to destroy the nontoken Anaba Ancestor, triggering Mimic Vat and getting a token copy.
Edit: How to get more enchantments
1. Clockwork Gnomes triggers many Psychic Battles
2. Due to 1, we can bounce Mana Vault, Mimic Vat, Skull of Orm and Mirror of Fate. Get their reuses via Mirrorworks.
3. Play Allay with buyback, triggering many Psychic Bettles
4. Due to 3, we can destroy enchantments, imprint and then get tokens via Mimic Vat.
5. Use Mirror of Fate to move enchantment from exile to library.
6. Use ??? to move enchantment from library to graveyard.
7. Use Skull of Orm to move enchantment from graveyard to hand.
8. We may replay the enchantment, then things from 4~8 repeat.
9. To stop the use of Allay, redirect its target to Opalescence, resolve Allay and destroy Opalescence, then use Skull of Orm to get card back to hand, then replay Opalescence.
Allay can be reused because it has buyback, but False Memories doesn't work in this way.
I don't know how switching to Retract is supposed to help? I think as long as we have a layer of triggers that can each bounce Aegis Automaton we can always use two of them to generate 2 life. Discard one -> play the other to get both on the battlefield -> resolve two triggers to bounce them.
@hyp_cos
a few posts after the decklist you linked, FortyTwo mentioned that "Verdant Succession tricks" remove the need to mill in the higher stages. Reverse engineering the tricks I figure that we can get Bloodbond March back to the battlefield from the library using a Verdant Succession trigger. No need for mill there.
To get non-green cards directly from exile to graveyard we can imprint a green card on the Mimic Vat that was used to exile them. The Vats ability puts them into the graveyard, again without need for mill. We then get the freshly exiled green card back as above.
Curse past me for my vagueness! Such a lazy jerk always leaving work for current me.
I remembered re-imprinting on vat being a key part, but not further than that.
Any other ideas for saving double Aegis Automaton, or should we look at gaining life after the transition instead?
Skeleton shard is almost there,
There are suprisingly few cards that single out artifact creatures in the yard.
Maybe adding Call to the Netherworld into the spellweaver helix could work?
The thought is that instead of losing the aegis automation to the top discard, what if we pitched a black creature to the discard just under worldfire instead, then we can save the aegis automation in hand to use above?
Looking at it I'm kind of doubtful that it works, as our black creatures are pretty well accounted for.
Its also possible we want to recoup it for flashback? that line looks a little more promising.
1. It uses Engineered Explosives with 2 charge counters to destroy Anaba Ancestor. Then we need two colors of mana. We have from Eye of Ramos, but what is another color of mana?
2. How to get more haste Clockwork Gnomes after Hurkyl's Recall cleaned all of them?
3. I don't see the need of Wheel of Sun and Moon. Mimic Vat can move enchantment/artifact/creature from graveyard to exile, and Mirror of Fate can move it from exile to library. Is there some need for other cards?
And a ruling question: how to calculate the mana value (converted mana cost) from a mana cost with symbol?
Found it.
So Engineered Explosives and Chalice of the Void (and Mox Emerald) will die once animated.
2. Recast it, then wait for a psychic battle trigger from a previous clockwork gnomes activation. (I think?)
3. Basically right, but there's a sunburst corner case that makes things a little more complicated. Sunburst behaves differently based on if march of the machines is in play or not. It changes to give +1/+1 counters on creatures, but if it is animated, then it doesn't have charge counters.
702.44a Sunburst is a static ability that functions as an object is entering the battlefield. “Sunburst” means “If this object is entering the battlefield as a creature, ignoring any type-changing effects that would affect it, it enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it for each color of mana spent to cast it. Otherwise, it enters the battlefield with a charge counter on it for each color of mana spent to cast it.”
Is it possible to use Simic Keyrune instead of Eye of Ramos and Mox Emerald (and maybe Mana Vault), since is not the key resource of the hyperstage?
2.
Well... I'm not asking the usual stage operations about Clockwork Gnomes, which uses one PB trigger and one BM trigger below, both of Clockwork Gnomes itself, to recreate a token.
In this post, if we only use one Clockwork Gnomes-PB trigger (or one Clockwork Gnomes-BM trigger) in the X part, how to get many haste Clockwork Gnomes while there are Hurkyl's Recall present on stack? (To get many alternative PB and BM triggers of Clockwork Gnomes above Hurkyl's Recall)
If we can't, at least we should be able to gain one haste Clockwork Gnomes on average, then gain many haste Clockwork Gnomes per group of Clockwork Gnomes-PB trigger (or one Clockwork Gnomes-BM trigger) in the X part.
If I recall correctly, we get Clockwork Gnomes tokens through Goryo's Vengeance and Muzzio, Visionary Architect. Goryo's Vengeance gets us hasted copies of Muzzio, and we can tap them to repeatedly retrieve the nontoken Clockwork Gnomes, which we can target with Clockwork Gnomes to net a profit in Gnomes tokens. (but I don't remember the exact details at the moment)
Use 3 Psychic Battle triggers of Anaba Ancestor, they bounce Changeling Hero 3 times, champion Muzzio, Visionary Architect and Goblin Dark-Dwellers (2 times) respectively. First one get Muzzio away, then use ETB of Goblin Dark-Dwellers to cast Brain Freeze and Goryo's Vengeance, getting a haste Muzzio, and use it to pull an artifact (Clockwork Gnomes, Engineered Explosives, Chalice of the Void, etc.) back.
But how to destroy Clockwork Gnomes the first time (for imprint), after Hurkyl's Recall deleted all the haste tokens? If we must use the Clockwork Gnomes-PB trigger below the Hurkyl's Recall (in the stack), then how to get 2 or more haste Clockwork Gnomes?
Most of the time, the stack looks like this: (See this for more abilities)
We need to get Engineered Explosives back to hand, so we must let a Hurkyl's Recall-TYS trigger resolve. After that, there is no artifact on battlefield, especially haste Clockwork Gnomes.
We may play the Clockwork Gnomes, but to destroy it onto Mimic Vat we must let an ability of group A resolve. Get one haste Clockwork Gnomes. Then we can have the card back to battlefield by Muzzio, Visionary Architect, which costs 3 Anaba Ancestor-PB triggers.
More detailed.
By the time we have made one haste Clockwork Gnomes, the card is in exile; one haste Anaba Ancestor on field with its card in hand; Engineered Explosives is in hand. The stack looks like this:
We cannot directly activate the haste Anaba Ancestor, otherwise we need to wait until cluster B to get the resource back (or never get it back?).
We need firstly to play Anaba Ancestor card, get BM trigger, then we can safely regenerate this haste Anaba Ancestor.
So the stack could be:
Now we can use the Anaba Ancestor-PB triggers to get Clockwork Gnomes card back to field.
If we let the last one of Anaba Ancestor-PB triggers (0 untapped haste Anaba Ancestor), and the BM trigger below it resolve, we can have the one untapped haste Anaba Ancestor back. However, the card will stay on battlefield instead of hand.
But wait, we still have Engineered Explosives. After getting Clockwork Gnomes card back to field, we use the PB to bounce Anaba Ancestor, then replay. The stack is:
where Anaba Ancestor card is on battlefield. Use to play Engineered Explosives, destroy Anaba Ancestor on Mimic Vat, get a haste token. Now the stack is:
Next the Anaba Ancestor-PB triggers (1 untapped haste Anaba Ancestor) is able to give Anaba Ancestor card on hand, with 1 untapped haste Anaba Ancestor. However, Engineered Explosives is gone; to get it back to hand, we need Hurkyl's Recall, which again erases our progress making haste Clockwork Gnomes.
And about the mana:
The start might be:
Bayou (G , 6 in hand)
Mox Emerald (GG, 5 in hand)
Simian Spirit Guide (GGR, 4 in hand)
Mana Vault (GGCCC, 3 in hand)
Eureka (C, 2 in hand)
But is there possible way to have 3 cards in hand at the play of Eureka?
I think we might use Mana Crypt + Simic Keyrune instead of Mana Vault + Eye of Ramos, while Emerald being the same. The start is:
Bayou (G, 6 in hand)
Mox Emerald (GG, 5 in hand)
Mana Crypt (GGCC, 4 in hand)
Eureka (3 in hand)
Simic Keyrune is the main mana source. Mana Crypt isn't.
Edit: I got why a single Simic Keyrune won't work. We need to animated artifact so that they can be bounced and replay. Simic Keyrune (and Simic Signet) only give 1 mana net gain, unable to animate other artifacts. So we indeed need Mana Vault.
But Simic Keyrune can still replace Eye of Ramos, without Muzzio pulling back an extra artifact (namely, Mox Emerald).
For the setup, we need to have enough triggers to build and start computation from an empty board waiting on the stack, as we need the opponent to gain life to not kill them when we drain them with a syphon mage, which also needs to be on the stack. This caused a problem with Aegis Automaton because all of their Bloodbond March triggers are therefore also under the transition. But I think adding Call to the Netherworld fixes it as we can discard a black creature like K'rrik to the topmost syphon mage.
This is a little tricky: all of our black creatures are key to either the computation or the stage, so we can't have one waiting in hand to be discarded only when we are ready for the next worldfire.
Putting it below worldfire on the helix will fizzle it as pull from eternity would be too late.
But, if we put it on the helix above the worldfire instead and use the wormfang behemoth to carry it through the transition. It will fizzle too as it's target will be a new object due to being used in the above computations. (If we have TYS triggers for it, we also have TYS triggers for worldfire)
Instead, we put Recoup on the helix above worldfire, and that to target the Call to the Netherworld and hold a black creature in hand through the transition that way.
Now one concern is that we can use this to carry too many creatures through and gain too much life below the worldfire. But we need triggers to make a computation from an empty board above the syphon mage drain, and those triggers require k'rrik and the necromancer to not be in our hand. So that only leaves exactly Urborg syphon-mage itself and cuts us off of adding any other black creatures.
(This line is also why we need two recoups instead of two black sorceries, as we can regain flashback on them too cheaply by putting recoup on the helix.)
Hmm, for the two black sorcery situation, we can cast Recoup from the graveyard, and that gives a black sorcery flashback. We then imprint Recoup on a Spellweaver Helix, and cast the black sorcery from the graveyard while another copy and Recoup are imprinted on Spellwever Helix. While the Spellweaver Helixes' triggers are on the stack, we put the black sorcery back in the library and mill it. Then we can resolve the triggers, and give the black sorcery flashback again. So we keep spending a black mana, and gain a lot more life/black mana with our beneficial sorcery. So yeah, that looks like a problem.
If we can get it back then we don't need this Call to the Netherworld workaround, but I don't see a way to do that.