Well it costs a lot of deck slots but we could technically make do with just 7x Dralnu's crusade via 4x copy enchantment (Ais proved conversion to spiral rise with 8 clocks but the 8th halting clock does not need a crusade.)
As for this deck I think I'm missing something? Also, I just noticed that the timing for Fuel for the cause is really awkward.
Oh and we still need to be able to generate all the Necromancers after a Worldfire, and need probably Doubling season for that.
How does the blue mana stage work?
From what I can tell, you spend 3 blue on Distorting Wake to bounce 3 blue creatures [the above list has 4 btw], pitch them to Chrome Mox, but then to get them back onto the battlefield you need to resolve a Bloodbond March trigger for each one, which destroys each batch of triggers for those other than the one that was cast first.
Hmmm... so, I think we can have 5 different blue creatures. We have one creature that is the "main" stage creature, and we will have it's Bloodbond Marches on the stack. So say we have the five blue creatures in our hand. We play the main stage creature first, and get its Bloodbond March triggers. We then play the other four, and get four different groups of Bloodbond March triggers. We then cast Distorting Wake, costing us three blue mana. This will bring our five blue creatures to our hand. We can exile them one at a time to different Chrome Moxes, and get five blue mana. We then resolve the first four groups of Bloodbond March triggers, and one from the fifth group, to bring them back to the battlefield. (After putting them back in the graveyard with Pull from Eternity, of course) We then cast Distorting Wake again, costing us three mana again. This brings the five blue creatures back to our hand again. Now, we will exile the main stage creature for one blue mana, and cast the other four to get Bloodbond March triggers for them again. So for every two Bloodbond March triggers of the main stage creature, we will pay 3+3 = 6 blue mana for Distorting Wake, and gain 5+1 mana from exiling our blue creatures.
So yeah, we need 5 different blue creatures for this setup. (Or, we could go for three of the same blue creature, or two of the same creature plus two others)
Edit: So, here's a better ending sequence:
Layer 0: Tapping a Treasure token generates a lot of white mana
Layer 1: Resolving a Smothering Tithe trigger creates a lot of Treasure tokens
Layer 2: Making the opponent draw a card triggers many Smothering Tithes
Layer 3: Making the opponent shuffle their deck triggers many Widespread Panics
Layer 4: Activating a Jester's Mask generates many copies
Layer 5: An Awakening can untap many copies of Jester's Mask
Layer 6: An upkeep will trigger many copies of Awakening
Layer 7: Each postcombat main phase will be followed by many upkeeps thanks to Sphinx of the Second Sun
Layer 8: We will get many postcombat main phases thanks to World at War
If I recall correctly, the conversion to spiral rise was already known, but proving spiral rise turing complete has still still not been formally done (but seems very likely)
Edit: Smothering tithe is not safe:
we can give the opponent Smothering tithe, and Aegis Automaton and then draw a card, then they can inturrupt the computation.
Chrome mox is ok to make white because we can't Wrong Turn it to the opponent.
Smothering Tithe: Drat, I hate the whole opponent cooperating to go infinite thing!
Edit: Okay, I have a possible deck using Faith of the Devoted, which frees up card draw. Problem: what do we do with card draw?
An idea I had was to use Tolarian Kraken, to untap something like Marble Diamond. But, we can donate Marble Diamond to the opponent, for the same cooperative infinite that FortyTwo was talking about. Since Tolarian Kraken can only untap creatures, it seems hard to be able to untap a mana producer without being able to donate it.
Another idea was to have something like Lion's Eye Diamond, letting it die with March of the Machines on the battlefield, and reshuffling it into the deck using Mortuary. We take advantage with the Mirrorworks copies. But, unlike with Dual Nature, here we can get the copies without March of the Machines, so we can copy it and then bounce it back to our hand.
We couldn't do that with a legendary artifact that we had to sacrifice, but there doesn't appear to be a card like that.
So, we may be able to make this deck work - but I haven't found an ending sequence that makes it better.
Hmmm, how frequently do we need to give out Necromancers? Do we just have to build it up to 10^^^10 or whatever once each Worldfire?
Going from green to white would be awesome, not just for making things work in terms of donation, but also for gaining layers. I'm still not quite sure how to do it though.
For using the loyalty abilities of Planeswalkers, there is Teferi, Temporal Archmage. But I guess we can't use that with Garruk Wildspeaker, due to him being able to create a Beast creature. More generally, The Chain Veil can be used and bounced cheaply in this deck, so it can't be used for ending layers at least.
If we are limited to 6 clocks we need to update the number of necromancers in between every computation and need something like X^^^X to get BB(X)
With 130-150 ish clocks we have access to via copies of Dranlu's Crusade, there is probably a UTM that only needs to change the numbers of zombies, though I don't think there has been any explicit construction.
For some reason I thought the chain veil entered the battlefield tapped, oops, yeah that not gonna work.
With 6 clocks we still only need to update the number of vanilla creatures (of varying types) and can keep a fixed number of necromancers:
Given a particular fixed UTM (in which the input tape can vary), it translates to a tag system with fixed production rules (where the initial string can vary), which translates to a spiral rise program with d and m fixed (where a and n vary; a only varying by a multiple of m) which translates to a 6-clock TWM program with fixed zeroing triggers (where initial waterclock values can vary).
Yeah but what spell are we actually using that storm for? The only card that actually benefits is Starlight? but that doesn't help us in between computations, just in between worldfires?
@jfb: Hmm, but we can only play a land when the stack is empty, so we can't have trigger layers (e.g. Jester's Mask) afterwards.
@FortyTwo: The idea is to get many copies of Pull from Eternity, which will allow us to return Soul Proctor to the graveyard, so that we can use Soul Separator on it and bounce artifacts and enchantments to our hand.
Oh, we can counter Blue Sun's Zenith, and then repeatedly cast and counter it from the graveyard, allowing us to gain progress with the TYS copies. We could try to avoid BSZ with the counterspells - Essence Scatter will take care of the creature spells, and Spell Snare will take care of Recoup. But, I believe we need to counter Army of the Damned as well, and I don't have a way to do that in a restricted manner.
But spellweaver volute only makes copies, so I'm not sure what makes BSZ x=0 different from say Artificial Evolution? (and flashback exiles BSZ rather than shuffling it too) Edit: its not even a sorcery to get flashback from Recoup
Also with copying enchantments being impossible now, we only get 3xBloodbond March, which strongly limits the stage/hyperstage structure, but I think it's still strong enough?
Is there a way to only copy gold and/or green enchantments?
How does countering creatures work though? Essence Scatter would be in the graveyard after its first use, and could only be cast be casting a sorcery, which is expensive before the first stage.
Casting Army of the Damned to trigger a counterspell for Sanctum Plowbeast should be okay, so long as we are also able to return Stern Proctor in order to bounce Sanctum Plowbeast to our hand. Then Army of the Damned will have served its normal purpose, and we won't have to pay extra life for it. As far as I can see, this should be okay - we cast Sanctum Plowbeast, then we cast Army of the Damned with three Spellweaver Volutes in play, one on each of Essence Scatter, Repeated Reverberation, and Pull from Eternity. We resolve the Essence Scatter to counter the Plowbeast, then we resolve Repeated Reverberation and Pull from Eternity. (Not sure that Repeated Reverberation is necessary here, but whatever) Pull from Eternity returns our exiled cards, including Stern Proctor, and we can exile it to Soul Separator. We can then use Soul Separator to create Stern Proctors after Sanctum Plowbeast returns to the battlefield.
So I think it should work?
@FortyTwo: The worry with Blue Sun's Zenith was casting it with Recoup, where we can pay for X.
I believe we are fine so long as we have at least two Bloodbond Marches, and can get arbitrarily many of the other spell/ability (in this case copies of Pull from Eternity). But copying green enchantments would be nice, we could also copy things like Doubling Season and Mana Reflection.
Edit: Oh right, Blue Sun's Zenith isn't a sorcery. So I guess it is safe then!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
As for this deck I think I'm missing something? Also, I just noticed that the timing for Fuel for the cause is really awkward.
Oh and we still need to be able to generate all the Necromancers after a Worldfire, and need probably Doubling season for that.
From what I can tell, you spend 3 blue on Distorting Wake to bounce 3 blue creatures [the above list has 4 btw], pitch them to Chrome Mox, but then to get them back onto the battlefield you need to resolve a Bloodbond March trigger for each one, which destroys each batch of triggers for those other than the one that was cast first.
I think Copy Enchantment is no good for that deck though, since it can copy Faith of the Devoted.
Right, I forgot Doubling Season again! We do have Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient, but it's too expensive at that point.
Hmmm... so, I think we can have 5 different blue creatures. We have one creature that is the "main" stage creature, and we will have it's Bloodbond Marches on the stack. So say we have the five blue creatures in our hand. We play the main stage creature first, and get its Bloodbond March triggers. We then play the other four, and get four different groups of Bloodbond March triggers. We then cast Distorting Wake, costing us three blue mana. This will bring our five blue creatures to our hand. We can exile them one at a time to different Chrome Moxes, and get five blue mana. We then resolve the first four groups of Bloodbond March triggers, and one from the fifth group, to bring them back to the battlefield. (After putting them back in the graveyard with Pull from Eternity, of course) We then cast Distorting Wake again, costing us three mana again. This brings the five blue creatures back to our hand again. Now, we will exile the main stage creature for one blue mana, and cast the other four to get Bloodbond March triggers for them again. So for every two Bloodbond March triggers of the main stage creature, we will pay 3+3 = 6 blue mana for Distorting Wake, and gain 5+1 mana from exiling our blue creatures.
So yeah, we need 5 different blue creatures for this setup. (Or, we could go for three of the same blue creature, or two of the same creature plus two others)
Edit: So, here's a better ending sequence:
Layer 0: Tapping a Treasure token generates a lot of white mana
Layer 1: Resolving a Smothering Tithe trigger creates a lot of Treasure tokens
Layer 2: Making the opponent draw a card triggers many Smothering Tithes
Layer 3: Making the opponent shuffle their deck triggers many Widespread Panics
Layer 4: Activating a Jester's Mask generates many copies
Layer 5: An Awakening can untap many copies of Jester's Mask
Layer 6: An upkeep will trigger many copies of Awakening
Layer 7: Each postcombat main phase will be followed by many upkeeps thanks to Sphinx of the Second Sun
Layer 8: We will get many postcombat main phases thanks to World at War
2 Xathrid Necromancer
3 Arcbond
4 Artificial Evolution
5 Wrong Turn
6 Dralnu's Crusade
7 Starfield of Nyx
8 Death Pit Offering
9 Goblin Boom Keg
10 March of the Machines
11 Tidal Barracuda
12 Spellweaver Volute
13 Pull from Eternity
14 Dual Nature
15 Bloodbond March
16 Cephalid Shrine
17 Thousand-Year Storm
18 Invulnerability
19 Mana Echoes
21 Stern Proctor
22 Soul Separator
23 Nihilistic Glee
24 Skull of Ramos
25 Beacon of Tomorrows
26 Doubling Season
27 Spellweaver Helix
28 Worldfire
29 Starlight
30 Restore
31 Recoup
32 Recoup
33 Panharmonicon
34 Molten Slagheap
35 Wormfang Behemoth
36 Distorting Wake
37 Aegis Automaton
38 Guardian of the Guildpact
39 Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient
40 Mirror Gallery
42 Show and Tell
43 Omniscience
44 Chameleon Blur
45 Leyline of Punishment
46 Words of Wisdom
47 your favorite blue creature
48 your favorite red creature
49 your favorite artifact creature
50 Smothering Tithe
51 Mana Reflection
52 Widespread Panic
53 Jester's Mask
54 Awakening
55 Sphinx of the Second Sun
56 World at War
Those deck slots filled up fast!
https://esolangs.org/wiki/Spiral_Rise
Even looks like it only needs 6 non flooding clocks actually.
So with 4 Dralnu's Crusade and 2 Copy enchantment we'd be limited to 3 copies of Faith of the devoted, which seems possibly manageable?
Edit:
Smothering tithe is not safe:
we can give the opponent Smothering tithe, and Aegis Automaton and then draw a card, then they can inturrupt the computation.
Chrome mox is ok to make white because we can't Wrong Turn it to the opponent.
Three copies of Faith of the Devoted allows us to get 6 life per discard, can we make the life payment that big? I guess there is Army of the Damned, coupled with K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth. Oh, but how are we going to get enough Xathrid Necromancers? We can only get one copy of Doubling Season / Primal Vigor / Parallel Lives et al.
Oh, with this version we could have Rings of Brighthearth. Hmm, maybe.
Smothering Tithe: Drat, I hate the whole opponent cooperating to go infinite thing!
Edit: Okay, I have a possible deck using Faith of the Devoted, which frees up card draw. Problem: what do we do with card draw?
An idea I had was to use Tolarian Kraken, to untap something like Marble Diamond. But, we can donate Marble Diamond to the opponent, for the same cooperative infinite that FortyTwo was talking about. Since Tolarian Kraken can only untap creatures, it seems hard to be able to untap a mana producer without being able to donate it.
Another idea was to have something like Lion's Eye Diamond, letting it die with March of the Machines on the battlefield, and reshuffling it into the deck using Mortuary. We take advantage with the Mirrorworks copies. But, unlike with Dual Nature, here we can get the copies without March of the Machines, so we can copy it and then bounce it back to our hand.
We couldn't do that with a legendary artifact that we had to sacrifice, but there doesn't appear to be a card like that.
So, we may be able to make this deck work - but I haven't found an ending sequence that makes it better.
So now we can be completely certain that 6 Dralnu's Crusades is enough.
the opponent cooperating is annoying but I don't see a way around it.
we can at least give them any other color?
So having Tolarian Kraken untap something that makes green (or red?), then use green to make white in a way we can't donate?
Maybe using the Chain Veil + Garruk Wildspeaker? Though That does limit us to sorcery speed again, which probably is too slow.
Edit:
Oh and good work on the proof, It looks good to me, though that's just a first pass.
Hmmm, how frequently do we need to give out Necromancers? Do we just have to build it up to 10^^^10 or whatever once each Worldfire?
Going from green to white would be awesome, not just for making things work in terms of donation, but also for gaining layers. I'm still not quite sure how to do it though.
For using the loyalty abilities of Planeswalkers, there is Teferi, Temporal Archmage. But I guess we can't use that with Garruk Wildspeaker, due to him being able to create a Beast creature. More generally, The Chain Veil can be used and bounced cheaply in this deck, so it can't be used for ending layers at least.
With 130-150 ish clocks we have access to via copies of Dranlu's Crusade, there is probably a UTM that only needs to change the numbers of zombies, though I don't think there has been any explicit construction.
For some reason I thought the chain veil entered the battlefield tapped, oops, yeah that not gonna work.
Given a particular fixed UTM (in which the input tape can vary), it translates to a tag system with fixed production rules (where the initial string can vary), which translates to a spiral rise program with d and m fixed (where a and n vary; a only varying by a multiple of m) which translates to a 6-clock TWM program with fixed zeroing triggers (where initial waterclock values can vary).
So I cooked up a deck using Faith of the Devoted:
2 Xathrid Necromancer
3 Arcbond
4 Artificial Evolution
5 Wrong Turn
6 Dralnu's Crusade
7 Dralnu's Crusade
8 Dralnu's Crusade
9 Dralnu's Crusade
10 Mirrormade
11 Mirrormade
12 Desolation Giant
13 Goblin Boom Keg
14 March of the Machines
15 Tidal Barracuda
16 Spellweaver Volute
17 Pull from Eternity
18 Bloodbond March
19 Cephalid Shrine
20 Thousand-Year Storm
21 Invulnerability
22 Mana Echoes
24 Stern Proctor
25 Soul Separator
26 Sanctum Plowbeast
27 Faith of the Devoted
28 Army of the Damned
29 K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth
30 Rings of Brighthearth
31 Dual Nature
32 Spellweaver Helix
33 Worldfire
34 Starlight
35 Restore
36 Recoup
37 Recoup
38 Panharmonicon
39 Molten Slagheap
40 Wormfang Behemoth
41 Distorting Wake
43 Guardian of the Guildpact
44 Black Lotus
45 Show and Tell
46 Omniscience
47 Chameleon Blur
48 Leyline of Punishment
49 Words of Wisdom
50 your favorite red creature
51 Lion's Eye Diamond
52 Blue Sun's Zenith
53 Consecrated Sphinx
54 Widespread Panic
55 Jester's Mask
56 Sphinx of the Second Sun
57 World at War
58 Mortuary
Down to 6 layers at the end, due to not having many copies of enchantments.
It does need a good amount of setup, but any constant will quickly become negligible.
hmm, with that deck, we no longer get lots of Bloodbond March/TYS which kind of ruins the connection between the TM and this stage.
@FortyTwo: The idea is to get many copies of Pull from Eternity, which will allow us to return Soul Proctor to the graveyard, so that we can use Soul Separator on it and bounce artifacts and enchantments to our hand.
Though the timing is a bit odd with Spellweaver Volute but we can have one on Repeated Reverberation and another on Pull from Eternity.
Any "storage" or "memory" gets bigger with time.
About all I can say is that a program like
1: 2 3 2
2: 3 2 2
X: 0 0 0
eventually halts for any value of X.
We can just drop BSZ, freeing up a card slot.
But spellweaver volute only makes copies, so I'm not sure what makes BSZ x=0 different from say Artificial Evolution?
(and flashback exiles BSZ rather than shuffling it too)Edit: its not even a sorcery to get flashback from RecoupAlso with copying enchantments being impossible now, we only get 3xBloodbond March, which strongly limits the stage/hyperstage structure, but I think it's still strong enough?
Is there a way to only copy gold and/or green enchantments?
How does countering creatures work though? Essence Scatter would be in the graveyard after its first use, and could only be cast be casting a sorcery, which is expensive before the first stage.
Casting Army of the Damned to trigger a counterspell for Sanctum Plowbeast should be okay, so long as we are also able to return Stern Proctor in order to bounce Sanctum Plowbeast to our hand. Then Army of the Damned will have served its normal purpose, and we won't have to pay extra life for it. As far as I can see, this should be okay - we cast Sanctum Plowbeast, then we cast Army of the Damned with three Spellweaver Volutes in play, one on each of Essence Scatter, Repeated Reverberation, and Pull from Eternity. We resolve the Essence Scatter to counter the Plowbeast, then we resolve Repeated Reverberation and Pull from Eternity. (Not sure that Repeated Reverberation is necessary here, but whatever) Pull from Eternity returns our exiled cards, including Stern Proctor, and we can exile it to Soul Separator. We can then use Soul Separator to create Stern Proctors after Sanctum Plowbeast returns to the battlefield.
So I think it should work?
@FortyTwo: The worry with Blue Sun's Zenith was casting it with Recoup, where we can pay for X.
I believe we are fine so long as we have at least two Bloodbond Marches, and can get arbitrarily many of the other spell/ability (in this case copies of Pull from Eternity). But copying green enchantments would be nice, we could also copy things like Doubling Season and Mana Reflection.
Edit: Oh right, Blue Sun's Zenith isn't a sorcery. So I guess it is safe then!