I recently encountered a player at a local FNM who had a counterfeit playset of Tarmogoyfs in his deck. He had received these from an online retailer (I don't know which one, nor do I know if it was from ebay). When he received them, he knew they were fakes and was refunded his money for his purchase. He is a long time member of our local community and has played in many events here. On this particular day, he had the fakes in place of his real ones (his real ones were in another deck) and forgot to take them out and replace them with the real cards. He called the judge on himself when he discovered this. Unfortunately, because the FNM had already fired, he was DQ'd from the event, and was reported to the DCI. He was given an opportunity to write a letter to the DCI explaining the situation, but I have not seen him at the shop since.
That is pretty hard to believe. We usually let people just drop out of that FNM if it is a first time offense at my shop. Especially if someone has reported themself, we issue a game loss, let them correct the situation and move on.
It isn't polite to say that I'm making ridiculous statements. Also, it is theft. Message boards can be a place where we talk to each other with respect.
I reserve my respect for the individual, not the idea. I don't know you personally, so I won't say anything to disparage you as a person. But I stand by what I said. Your statement was ridiculous. Like I said before, these words mean things and we can't just make up new meanings whenever we want. To say that copyright infringement is theft would be like saying that jaywalking is littering, murder is kidnapping or instants are sorceries.
I can say "jaywalking is like littering in some ways", or "jaywalking might as well be the same as littering for the purpose of this discussion" or "jaywalking is identical to littering in every way that is relevant to this discussion". But I cannot say that "jaywalking is littering". That would be ridiculous.
I'd buy real cards so long as they were reasonable. I recently bought a Karakas for about $113 and a Bayou for about $130. However, when WotC feels that they can't change their policy on reprinting dual lands and the price of Underground Seas is in the hundreds I would buy fakes.
I believe as consumers we show the retailers what we want by what we do with our dollars. A fairly elementary economic principle. You do it when you buy 'toaster pastries' instead of Pop Tarts. You do it when you buy 'puffed rice' instead of Rice Krispies. Buying counterfeits shows WotC that there are problems that they need fixed otherwise they will lose money.
Also, you're right in that LGSs are losing out on the counterfeiting business when players aren't buying the secondary market stuff since WotC doesn't actually own the product once the hop has bought it. Shops make much more money on Standard sales anyway so we won't have to worry too much about that. The only real problem that I have is with people who pass counterfeits off as real when selling them. This might have happened recently to my LGS and I was there to see it. Some guy from Quebec came in with an Underground Sea and sold it to our store for $150. We're still not sure if it really is a fake(one of the owners says it's a fake but can't say how he knows probably one of those spiritual/gut/instinct feelings I have a very hard time trusting)but if it is real then my little LGS lost what it would consider a LOT of money since it is very new and not as stable as we would wish it to be.
It isn't polite to say that I'm making ridiculous statements. Also, it is theft. Message boards can be a place where we talk to each other with respect.
I reserve my respect for the individual, not the idea. I don't know you personally, so I won't say anything to disparage you as a person. But I stand by what I said. Your statement was ridiculous. Like I said before, these words mean things and we can't just make up new meanings whenever we want. To say that copyright infringement is theft would be like saying that jaywalking is littering, murder is kidnapping or instants are sorceries.
I can say "jaywalking is like littering in some ways", or "jaywalking might as well be the same as littering for the purpose of this discussion" or "jaywalking is identical to littering in every way that is relevant to this discussion". But I cannot say that "jaywalking is littering". That would be ridiculous.
That's not the same analogy, Litter is to say vandalize, toxic dumping and destruction of public property as Counterfeiting and pickpocketing and grand larceny is to theft, And Jaywalking is to Traffic Violation.
Yes there is a legal differentiation and specific laws that cover the differences between theft and copyright infringement, but they still fall in to the same areas of law.
Yes there is a legal differentiation and specific laws that cover the differences between theft and copyright infringement, but they still fall in to the same areas of law.
Actually they don't. Theft is criminal. Copyright infringement, in and of itself, is civil. Criminal copyright infringement exists but it requires a few extra factors be present on top of the copyright infringement by itself.
On top of all of this, various state statutes and cases may define things like civil theft and fraud or similar claims in different ways. But, again, why does it matter? Does someone think that using fake cards becomes ethically fine as long as it's not violating this law or other?
On top of all of this, various state statutes and cases may define things like civil theft and fraud or similar claims in different ways. But, again, why does it matter? Does someone think that using fake cards becomes ethically fine as long as it's not violating this law or other?
Lots of people think it's ethically fine. I think it's ethically fine in theory, but the externalities make it problematic (people getting ripped off by convincing fakes, possible harm to the game if people stop buying packs). You do know that lots of LGS's etc do proxy vintage events, and that people make proxies for casual all the time. Are you really opposed to that?
No, I have no problem at all with proxies. I play Vintage and I'm totally down for playing whatever proxies you might want to bring.
Counterfeits are NOT proxies; proxies are unofficial cards used with full disclosure to everyone. Counterfeits try to pass for the real deal. People in this thread keep on mixing up the concept of proxies and counterfeits, and several of us have explained the difference between the terms multiple times.
A proxy is a counterfeit with added deceit. That's the ethical problem. It has nothing to do with anything intrinsically wrong with using unofficial cards. It becomes a problem when you pretend that your unofficial cards ARE official. As soon as you do that, you're lying. Lying is not a good thing. That's the point.
On top of all of this, various state statutes and cases may define things like civil theft and fraud or similar claims in different ways. But, again, why does it matter?
In the case of this specific instance, it matters quite a bit. Theft is wrong because it is evil, and it would be evil even if it wasn't illegal. Copyright Infringement is wrong solely because the government says it is illegal.
Example:
If the copyright on a book expires tomorrow and I make a copy today, that would be illegal and wrong. If I did the exact same thing tomorrow it would be legal and just fine. This is because the act of copying a book or a card or anything else is not inherently bad. It is only the violation of the monopoly granted by the government to the IP holder that makes copyright infringement wrong.
Does someone think that using fake cards becomes ethically fine as long as it's not violating this law or other?
Ethics never comes into play when intellectual property is concerned. Intellectual Property exists because it is useful, not because it is right. It is meant to "promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries."
There is a concept of moral rights for IP, which the United States does not subscribe to. Neither do I. I am with Thomas Jefferson on this one:
If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it.
The fact is that counterfeits are not changing anything and won't be changing anything any time soon because they're:
a.) not good enough
b.) will never be able to pass off as the real thing
Of course, if they ever did become good enough, we'd never know it.
There is no real way to check. Short of everyone knowing how to check on the fly while looking through a sleeve, fakes are always going to exist in tournaments. This is one of the reasons I only buy from big dealers like SCG, Card Kingdom etc from now on. Places where their reputation is worth more than a few hundo in cardboard.
Even say if the TO does notice when deck checking, what can he really do about it? The person can just feign ignorance and say he got ripped off as well. Are you really going to ban the guy from tournaments forever after he already got ripped off 1k+ for his deck? Aren't you punishing the victim here?
The fact is that counterfeits are not changing anything and won't be changing anything any time soon because they're:
...
b.) will never be able to pass off as the real thing
I wouldn't make such a statement - current ones may not, and for some time, we will (hopefully) luck out, and continue to be able to spot the differences, but that doesn't mean there isn't a possibility that some counterfeiters may get their stuff together, and actually make one that can be passed off as the real thing... neither of us have the foresight where we can accurately say whether or not that day will ever be upon us or not.
Even say if the TO does notice when deck checking, what can he really do about it? The person can just feign ignorance and say he got ripped off as well. Are you really going to ban the guy from tournaments forever after he already got ripped off 1k+ for his deck? Aren't you punishing the victim here?
He gets DQ'd. It doesn't matter whether he knowingly used counterfeits or not. If he spent 1k+ for his fake cards, sucks to be him.
Tournament rules aren't there to protect victims from being scammed. They're there to ensure players use WotC products instead of Chinese knockoffs.
Tournament rules aren't there to protect victims from being scammed. They're there to ensure players use WotC products instead of Chinese knockoffs.
Tournaments exist to promote MtG. It's terrible PR to have stories floating around of players getting ripped off on cards and then getting disqualified from events as an added insult to injury.
For all we know perfect counterfeits are circulating right now. By definition, they would be undetectable.
So I contacted a local store that allows full proxies for their Legacy tournaments to get the scoop. This particular stores requires that proxies be printed and in color- no black and white prints or a plains card with "Jace the Mind Sculptor" written on it won't work. I haven't played at this particular shop yet, but I plan on it soon.
This interaction got me to thinking..... What do shops and players stand to benefit by allowing proxies (fake cards) in tournaments?
From a player perspective, it allows more people to enter the tournament and because more people can enter the prize payout will be larger. Also, from a player perspective there are no limitations to deckbuilding.
From a store's perspective, I would argue that a store will benefit from allowing proxies. To begin, by allowing proxy Legacy tournaments, stores would most likely sell more Legacy staples and Legacy cards. Sure, a player could go out and just proxy an entire deck, but from my experience the use of proxies (fake cards) would be used when price or scarcity are too prohibitive in acquiring the needed/desired cards. So while a player might be prone to proxy a Jace, Liliana, Dual land, or Tarmogoyf in a Legacy deck, the more reasonably priced cards they would likely desire to have the real thing. It is, afterall, called cardboard crack. Also, by hosting proxy Legal tournaments, the general interest and participation in the format will grow. Stronger player bases would likely be created and everyday MTG sales would increase at the store that allows proxies versus the one that doesn't- in my experience the better a store does with it's tournament scene, the better they do with card sales as well. Also, many players (younger players especially) would likely be prone to proxy expensive and hard to find cards when they are outside of their reach, however as they age and their disposable income goes up the likelihood that they will wind up buying those rare and expensive cards increases.
So by allowing fake cards, in my theory, both the players win and the stores win. More players, bigger winner payouts, and unlimited deck building options for players. Increased card sales and a larger and more dedicated group of players for stores.
The only problem with the high quality proxies and fakes being produced in China, people's homes, and elsewhere is the threat that they pose to collections values. As it stands now, even the best "proxies" that I have seen (the ones that will slide by everyone when sleeved) are easy to detect outside of sleeves.
I have dug further and further into the proxy situation and I have come to understand that StarcityGames used to run Vintage tournaments that they allowed proxies in. From what I can gather, that was the event that (to some extent) legitimized proxies in the Vintage community and which is now making it's way to the Legacy community.
My interest is in the game of Magic. I used to be interested in the value of my collection, but that interest has basically become extinct over the last year. I am coming into contact with more and more proxies and "fake cards" from China and elsewhere that are just amazing. Some of these feature digitally altered cards. Some are printouts of the online Magic Power 9 and Dual Lands which are foiled and have alternate art so that no one will think they are real. Some are Chinese proxies that look nearly identical to the real thing (minus the texture of the card or sometimes having colors that are slightly off). In the end, I don't care if someone is playing with real cards, proxies, or fakes. I do not buy or trade with individuals. My interest is solely on the game. If a 15 year old kid can't afford a Legacy or Vintage deck, but can come up with a nice mix of cool looking proxies and real cards mixed together. Cool, let's play Magic. If a 40 year old doesn't want to play with his real dual lands because the price has skyrocketed, but he will play with some Chinese proxies that look legit. Cool, let's play Magic.
In the end, for me, this is about a game. A game I want to play. I don't want to be restricted by a cards rarity, scarcity, or value. I don't want to be restricted by the horrible No Reprint List- a list that did nothing but stifle the game and put a severe handicap on both Vintage and Legacy as formats.
For me, it's just about the game.
I would be the first to stand up and say that attempting to sell fake cards as the real thing is wrong, but if someone wants to play with those cool looking fake cards even in a sanctioned tournament (hey, it might be against WOTC's rules, but they have no idea what is being played at the tournaments! All they get is a computer data entry showing who played and who won and lost. The validity of the cards in the decks is beyond their scope of information.), I'm 100% cool. If someone beats me playing with fake cards, then they were the better player, had better luck, or perhaps just a better matchup that I or my deck had.
It's a matter of preference, I suppose, but ultimately, especially in the coming years, I think that players will want to play with proxies and fakes more and more (especially in lieu of escalating prices and the scarcity of some cards) and I think that the stores that allow proxies in their tournaments will see larger turnouts, larger and more dedicated player bases, and increased sales of real Magic cards.
Here is one example of a really cool Jace, the Mind Sculptor that I have run across. Obviously, no one would think this card was real. But it is still beyond cool. I'd love to drop a high quality proxy of this JTMS down in a tournament.
This interaction got me to thinking..... What do shops and players stand to benefit by allowing proxies (fake cards) in tournaments?
Why do you (and others, not just you) keep using the terms for proxies and fake or counterfeit cards interchangeably? I'm genuinely curious about this. It seems like there's a strong reluctance on the part of many people in this thread to acknowledge the difference between an obvious proxy and a counterfeit that tries to pass for real.
Here is one example of a really cool Jace, the Mind Sculptor that I have run across. Obviously, no one would think this card was real. But it is still beyond cool. I'd love to drop a high quality proxy of this JTMS down in a tournament.
That's what I'm talking about. It's a good-looking card, probably involved some craftsmanship to make it, and it's a great proxy. It also cannot be mistaken for the real deal, so no one will get snookered by it. Great card.
Why do you (and others, not just you) keep using the terms for proxies and fake or counterfeit cards interchangeably? I'm genuinely curious about this. It seems like there's a strong reluctance on the part of many people in this thread to acknowledge the difference between an obvious proxy and a counterfeit that tries to pass for real.
I think this is really a very important distinction we have to make. Proxies are obvious fakes while counterfeits are intended to pass itself off as real. Proxies are like monopoly money. Its only use is in-game and no one will exchange or offer to exchange real currency for it. Fake bills which are intended to be circulated in the general economy are counterfeits.
The mock up card you made at home is a proxy. The high quality Chinese knockoffs you paid money for are counterfeits.
I do believe there are many counterfeits being played at tournaments because once they are sleeved up it's hard to tell. I have never played in a tournament were a judge pulled my deck apart and check my cards with a loop and black light. It would be to time consuming for judges to have to deck check every player in a big tourney. Top 8 may work but what about FNM events? I would have to put my trust in a low level judges hands. Counterfeits are really bad for the game but it's up to Hasbro to put a end to it. I don't buy high end cards anymore because of the fear of getting fakes. I have also sold off my high end stuff because I do believe that counterfeits will hurt the secondary market if not put to a end.
The one thing wizards could do is devalue the cards to a point were counterfeits cards aren't as profitable. Wizards should do a vintage version of Modern Masters with different art work so the originals would hold value. It would be a cash boon for wizards and grow the vintage player base at the same time. At 20 dollars a pack LGS's would make out like a bandit.
[quote from="MaximumC »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/607584-fake-cards-in-tournaments?comment=69"]
Proxies are like monopoly money. Its only use is in-game and no one will exchange or offer to exchange real currency for it. Fake bills which are intended to be circulated in the general economy are counterfeits.
Well, they will pay money for good proxies; there's a level of craftsmanship involved that can be compensated. But you're right in that this transaction is outside of the normal Magic economy because you're not paying for a Magic card so much as for someone to craft the proxy.
I'd buy real cards so long as they were reasonable. I recently bought a Karakas for about $113 and a Bayou for about $130. However, when WotC feels that they can't change their policy on reprinting dual lands and the price of Underground Seas is in the hundreds I would buy fakes.
I believe as consumers we show the retailers what we want by what we do with our dollars. A fairly elementary economic principle. You do it when you buy 'toaster pastries' instead of Pop Tarts. You do it when you buy 'puffed rice' instead of Rice Krispies. Buying counterfeits shows WotC that there are problems that they need fixed otherwise they will lose money.
Also, you're right in that LGSs are losing out on the counterfeiting business when players aren't buying the secondary market stuff since WotC doesn't actually own the product once the hop has bought it. Shops make much more money on Standard sales anyway so we won't have to worry too much about that. The only real problem that I have is with people who pass counterfeits off as real when selling them. This might have happened recently to my LGS and I was there to see it. Some guy from Quebec came in with an Underground Sea and sold it to our store for $150. We're still not sure if it really is a fake(one of the owners says it's a fake but can't say how he knows probably one of those spiritual/gut/instinct feelings I have a very hard time trusting)but if it is real then my little LGS lost what it would consider a LOT of money since it is very new and not as stable as we would wish it to be.
Buying "Toaster pastries" instead of Poptarts is like playing a knock-off of Magic instead of Magic. You're deciding that the difference in quality isn't worth the difference in price.
That's completely different than buying counterfeit cards. Buying counterfeits is saying that you think that Magic is worth the money, but you don't want to have to pay that money. What you pay for a pack of cards isn't the cardboard + ink + packaging. You're paying people for those parts and just taking the parts that make a card valuable for free. Not that it even makes a ton of sense to complain with your dollar against Wizards. They don't make more money when Underground Sea sells for more.
As far as tournaments are concerned, you shouldn't be worried about them. As far as gameplay is concerned, whether your opponent got his cards legally or not shouldn't change how you play them. At GPs and other high level events, almost everyone is going to have the cards they need.
So I contacted a local store that allows full proxies for their Legacy tournaments to get the scoop. This particular stores requires that proxies be printed and in color- no black and white prints or a plains card with "Jace the Mind Sculptor" written on it won't work. I haven't played at this particular shop yet, but I plan on it soon.
This interaction got me to thinking..... What do shops and players stand to benefit by allowing proxies (fake cards) in tournaments?
Note that if this store is running these proxies-allowed tournaments as sanctioned tournaments for the DCI, they can get in trouble. The store also gets some nice perks if they're drawing in players (the only metric by which Wizards can measure this is sanctioned DCI tournaments). Therefore, running tournaments with proxies allowed can open the tournament to players that wouldn't otherwise be able to compete, but also either makes it more difficult for the store to get perks from Wizards or puts them at risk of losing all of their perks. Like being permitted to run FNM and prereleases, and receiving limited print run product like FTV. It could also cut the amount of sealed product the store is able to bring in as supply (for selling boosters, boxes, fat packs, etc. and running Limited tournaments). Also, for the players who care about such things, a non-sanctioned tournament won't be awarding planeswalker points (although I suspect most players who care wouldn't be playing in a proxy tournament anyway).
It's certainly possible for a large enough store to have sufficient foot traffic to run their proxy tournaments and run enough sanctioned tournaments to get everything they want from Wizards, and that's fine. But make sure the store isn't reporting these proxy tournaments as sanctioned DCI events.
My views on proxies are they are good for practicing however I don't make mine look amazing but they look not to bad. Hard to tell at a fast glance. They are allowed in vintage up to 5 proxies in my shop due to extreme cost and lack of availability.
Fakes are scary but detectable. As soon as my eBay shipment comes in I'm taking it to my shop and they will test them thoroughly. But people don't quite yet have it done perfectly. Basically they would need about $3,000 worth of equipment to do it and the FBI will flag anyone buying that due to fake money. So I wouldn't worry to much.
Basically they would need about $3,000 worth of equipment to do it and the FBI will flag anyone buying that due to fake money. So I wouldn't worry to much.
You mean that the equipment needed to print good fake cards could also be used for counterfeit currency, and would draw law enforcement attention for that reason? Seems plausible.
PS
That would be Secret Service instead of FBI - even though they're known for presidential security, they started out investigating fake money and still handle that.
That is pretty hard to believe. We usually let people just drop out of that FNM if it is a first time offense at my shop. Especially if someone has reported themself, we issue a game loss, let them correct the situation and move on.
Modern
I reserve my respect for the individual, not the idea. I don't know you personally, so I won't say anything to disparage you as a person. But I stand by what I said. Your statement was ridiculous. Like I said before, these words mean things and we can't just make up new meanings whenever we want. To say that copyright infringement is theft would be like saying that jaywalking is littering, murder is kidnapping or instants are sorceries.
I can say "jaywalking is like littering in some ways", or "jaywalking might as well be the same as littering for the purpose of this discussion" or "jaywalking is identical to littering in every way that is relevant to this discussion". But I cannot say that "jaywalking is littering". That would be ridiculous.
I believe as consumers we show the retailers what we want by what we do with our dollars. A fairly elementary economic principle. You do it when you buy 'toaster pastries' instead of Pop Tarts. You do it when you buy 'puffed rice' instead of Rice Krispies. Buying counterfeits shows WotC that there are problems that they need fixed otherwise they will lose money.
Also, you're right in that LGSs are losing out on the counterfeiting business when players aren't buying the secondary market stuff since WotC doesn't actually own the product once the hop has bought it. Shops make much more money on Standard sales anyway so we won't have to worry too much about that. The only real problem that I have is with people who pass counterfeits off as real when selling them. This might have happened recently to my LGS and I was there to see it. Some guy from Quebec came in with an Underground Sea and sold it to our store for $150. We're still not sure if it really is a fake(one of the owners says it's a fake but can't say how he knows probably one of those spiritual/gut/instinct feelings I have a very hard time trusting)but if it is real then my little LGS lost what it would consider a LOT of money since it is very new and not as stable as we would wish it to be.
That's not the same analogy, Litter is to say vandalize, toxic dumping and destruction of public property as Counterfeiting and pickpocketing and grand larceny is to theft, And Jaywalking is to Traffic Violation.
Yes there is a legal differentiation and specific laws that cover the differences between theft and copyright infringement, but they still fall in to the same areas of law.
Actually they don't. Theft is criminal. Copyright infringement, in and of itself, is civil. Criminal copyright infringement exists but it requires a few extra factors be present on top of the copyright infringement by itself.
Lots of people think it's ethically fine. I think it's ethically fine in theory, but the externalities make it problematic (people getting ripped off by convincing fakes, possible harm to the game if people stop buying packs). You do know that lots of LGS's etc do proxy vintage events, and that people make proxies for casual all the time. Are you really opposed to that?
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Counterfeits are NOT proxies; proxies are unofficial cards used with full disclosure to everyone. Counterfeits try to pass for the real deal. People in this thread keep on mixing up the concept of proxies and counterfeits, and several of us have explained the difference between the terms multiple times.
A proxy is a counterfeit with added deceit. That's the ethical problem. It has nothing to do with anything intrinsically wrong with using unofficial cards. It becomes a problem when you pretend that your unofficial cards ARE official. As soon as you do that, you're lying. Lying is not a good thing. That's the point.
In the case of this specific instance, it matters quite a bit. Theft is wrong because it is evil, and it would be evil even if it wasn't illegal. Copyright Infringement is wrong solely because the government says it is illegal.
Example:
If the copyright on a book expires tomorrow and I make a copy today, that would be illegal and wrong. If I did the exact same thing tomorrow it would be legal and just fine. This is because the act of copying a book or a card or anything else is not inherently bad. It is only the violation of the monopoly granted by the government to the IP holder that makes copyright infringement wrong.
Ethics never comes into play when intellectual property is concerned. Intellectual Property exists because it is useful, not because it is right. It is meant to "promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries."
There is a concept of moral rights for IP, which the United States does not subscribe to. Neither do I. I am with Thomas Jefferson on this one:
Of course, if they ever did become good enough, we'd never know it.
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Even say if the TO does notice when deck checking, what can he really do about it? The person can just feign ignorance and say he got ripped off as well. Are you really going to ban the guy from tournaments forever after he already got ripped off 1k+ for his deck? Aren't you punishing the victim here?
I wouldn't make such a statement - current ones may not, and for some time, we will (hopefully) luck out, and continue to be able to spot the differences, but that doesn't mean there isn't a possibility that some counterfeiters may get their stuff together, and actually make one that can be passed off as the real thing... neither of us have the foresight where we can accurately say whether or not that day will ever be upon us or not.
He gets DQ'd. It doesn't matter whether he knowingly used counterfeits or not. If he spent 1k+ for his fake cards, sucks to be him.
Tournament rules aren't there to protect victims from being scammed. They're there to ensure players use WotC products instead of Chinese knockoffs.
Tournaments exist to promote MtG. It's terrible PR to have stories floating around of players getting ripped off on cards and then getting disqualified from events as an added insult to injury.
For all we know perfect counterfeits are circulating right now. By definition, they would be undetectable.
This interaction got me to thinking..... What do shops and players stand to benefit by allowing proxies (fake cards) in tournaments?
From a player perspective, it allows more people to enter the tournament and because more people can enter the prize payout will be larger. Also, from a player perspective there are no limitations to deckbuilding.
From a store's perspective, I would argue that a store will benefit from allowing proxies. To begin, by allowing proxy Legacy tournaments, stores would most likely sell more Legacy staples and Legacy cards. Sure, a player could go out and just proxy an entire deck, but from my experience the use of proxies (fake cards) would be used when price or scarcity are too prohibitive in acquiring the needed/desired cards. So while a player might be prone to proxy a Jace, Liliana, Dual land, or Tarmogoyf in a Legacy deck, the more reasonably priced cards they would likely desire to have the real thing. It is, afterall, called cardboard crack. Also, by hosting proxy Legal tournaments, the general interest and participation in the format will grow. Stronger player bases would likely be created and everyday MTG sales would increase at the store that allows proxies versus the one that doesn't- in my experience the better a store does with it's tournament scene, the better they do with card sales as well. Also, many players (younger players especially) would likely be prone to proxy expensive and hard to find cards when they are outside of their reach, however as they age and their disposable income goes up the likelihood that they will wind up buying those rare and expensive cards increases.
So by allowing fake cards, in my theory, both the players win and the stores win. More players, bigger winner payouts, and unlimited deck building options for players. Increased card sales and a larger and more dedicated group of players for stores.
The only problem with the high quality proxies and fakes being produced in China, people's homes, and elsewhere is the threat that they pose to collections values. As it stands now, even the best "proxies" that I have seen (the ones that will slide by everyone when sleeved) are easy to detect outside of sleeves.
I have dug further and further into the proxy situation and I have come to understand that StarcityGames used to run Vintage tournaments that they allowed proxies in. From what I can gather, that was the event that (to some extent) legitimized proxies in the Vintage community and which is now making it's way to the Legacy community.
My interest is in the game of Magic. I used to be interested in the value of my collection, but that interest has basically become extinct over the last year. I am coming into contact with more and more proxies and "fake cards" from China and elsewhere that are just amazing. Some of these feature digitally altered cards. Some are printouts of the online Magic Power 9 and Dual Lands which are foiled and have alternate art so that no one will think they are real. Some are Chinese proxies that look nearly identical to the real thing (minus the texture of the card or sometimes having colors that are slightly off). In the end, I don't care if someone is playing with real cards, proxies, or fakes. I do not buy or trade with individuals. My interest is solely on the game. If a 15 year old kid can't afford a Legacy or Vintage deck, but can come up with a nice mix of cool looking proxies and real cards mixed together. Cool, let's play Magic. If a 40 year old doesn't want to play with his real dual lands because the price has skyrocketed, but he will play with some Chinese proxies that look legit. Cool, let's play Magic.
In the end, for me, this is about a game. A game I want to play. I don't want to be restricted by a cards rarity, scarcity, or value. I don't want to be restricted by the horrible No Reprint List- a list that did nothing but stifle the game and put a severe handicap on both Vintage and Legacy as formats.
For me, it's just about the game.
I would be the first to stand up and say that attempting to sell fake cards as the real thing is wrong, but if someone wants to play with those cool looking fake cards even in a sanctioned tournament (hey, it might be against WOTC's rules, but they have no idea what is being played at the tournaments! All they get is a computer data entry showing who played and who won and lost. The validity of the cards in the decks is beyond their scope of information.), I'm 100% cool. If someone beats me playing with fake cards, then they were the better player, had better luck, or perhaps just a better matchup that I or my deck had.
It's a matter of preference, I suppose, but ultimately, especially in the coming years, I think that players will want to play with proxies and fakes more and more (especially in lieu of escalating prices and the scarcity of some cards) and I think that the stores that allow proxies in their tournaments will see larger turnouts, larger and more dedicated player bases, and increased sales of real Magic cards.
Current decks:
Legacy: Zoo, Aggro Elves, The Gate, White Weenie, Red Deck Wins, and Merfolk. Currently building Solidarity.
Casual: Warp World Revolution and Old School Red-Green.
Standard: Ob-Nixilis Wave and Elves.
Current decks:
Legacy: Zoo, Aggro Elves, The Gate, White Weenie, Red Deck Wins, and Merfolk. Currently building Solidarity.
Casual: Warp World Revolution and Old School Red-Green.
Standard: Ob-Nixilis Wave and Elves.
Why do you (and others, not just you) keep using the terms for proxies and fake or counterfeit cards interchangeably? I'm genuinely curious about this. It seems like there's a strong reluctance on the part of many people in this thread to acknowledge the difference between an obvious proxy and a counterfeit that tries to pass for real.
That's what I'm talking about. It's a good-looking card, probably involved some craftsmanship to make it, and it's a great proxy. It also cannot be mistaken for the real deal, so no one will get snookered by it. Great card.
I think this is really a very important distinction we have to make. Proxies are obvious fakes while counterfeits are intended to pass itself off as real. Proxies are like monopoly money. Its only use is in-game and no one will exchange or offer to exchange real currency for it. Fake bills which are intended to be circulated in the general economy are counterfeits.
The mock up card you made at home is a proxy. The high quality Chinese knockoffs you paid money for are counterfeits.
The one thing wizards could do is devalue the cards to a point were counterfeits cards aren't as profitable. Wizards should do a vintage version of Modern Masters with different art work so the originals would hold value. It would be a cash boon for wizards and grow the vintage player base at the same time. At 20 dollars a pack LGS's would make out like a bandit.
Well, they will pay money for good proxies; there's a level of craftsmanship involved that can be compensated. But you're right in that this transaction is outside of the normal Magic economy because you're not paying for a Magic card so much as for someone to craft the proxy.
Buying "Toaster pastries" instead of Poptarts is like playing a knock-off of Magic instead of Magic. You're deciding that the difference in quality isn't worth the difference in price.
That's completely different than buying counterfeit cards. Buying counterfeits is saying that you think that Magic is worth the money, but you don't want to have to pay that money. What you pay for a pack of cards isn't the cardboard + ink + packaging. You're paying people for those parts and just taking the parts that make a card valuable for free. Not that it even makes a ton of sense to complain with your dollar against Wizards. They don't make more money when Underground Sea sells for more.
As far as tournaments are concerned, you shouldn't be worried about them. As far as gameplay is concerned, whether your opponent got his cards legally or not shouldn't change how you play them. At GPs and other high level events, almost everyone is going to have the cards they need.
It's certainly possible for a large enough store to have sufficient foot traffic to run their proxy tournaments and run enough sanctioned tournaments to get everything they want from Wizards, and that's fine. But make sure the store isn't reporting these proxy tournaments as sanctioned DCI events.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Fakes are scary but detectable. As soon as my eBay shipment comes in I'm taking it to my shop and they will test them thoroughly. But people don't quite yet have it done perfectly. Basically they would need about $3,000 worth of equipment to do it and the FBI will flag anyone buying that due to fake money. So I wouldn't worry to much.
You mean that the equipment needed to print good fake cards could also be used for counterfeit currency, and would draw law enforcement attention for that reason? Seems plausible.
PS
That would be Secret Service instead of FBI - even though they're known for presidential security, they started out investigating fake money and still handle that.
Vintage: Dredge | Legacy: Burn, Goblins, Soldier | Standard: Mono-Red Aggro
Commander: Nicol Bolas, Sliver Overlord, Rafiq
Casual: Selesnya Saproling Smackdown, Izzet Labs, Rebel
Played since June 2004, mostly inactive June 2011 to March 2018
Other usernames include AlanFromRochester, homerthebeerbaron
MTG checklists from Alpha to Ravnica Allegiance - https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/other-magic-products/third-party-products/805324-checklists-for-everything-from-alpha-to-ravnica