Remember that statements like this always have to be qualified with 2 additions: "yet," and "that we know of."
Actually, the foiling element is really hard to counterfeit in a way that would pass even casual scrutiny.
If you are buying in person, and take the card out of the sleeve it's in, these fakes are pretty easy to spot. The paper stock and general feel of an unsleeved card is still markedly different. This may change, but it could be a while. As long as there are selfish people who respect intellectual property only in so far as it is convenient for them, then these things will be made.
Can anyone help me to decide if this card is fake? Should i post this somewhere else, i can't find a dedicated thred for counterfeit card discussion.
it looks (to me) to be discolored - somewhat brighter than a normal card, especially visible on the black border. I don't have any original cards from antiquities to compare side by side. It's a NM reserved list card for 300 and i don't want to be suckered with it. Your oppinions will be much appreciated.
I'm not super qualified to tell, but I am pretty sure the older cards will always show a bolder black border due to the different printing process used between the art and the border. There is a forum for this, you should see it at the top of the screen when you are looking at Magic General.
Do you think artists should get paid to make the cards attractive and immersive? Do you want well designed Mechanics and new life breathed into the game from time to time? Do you want a card shop to play at?
My guess is you want these things but want everyone else to pay for it. You want to get what's yours and expect that other people will keep doing the right thing and paying for the real game elements.
That said, I think you are just trying to stir people up. I don't believe that the counterfeits have gotten to the point that you can't tell when they are unsleeved and can be handled.
I have ethics and don't think it is consistent with them to support counterfeiting. The ones I handled were in the possession of a flgs employee a few months ago and he was letting people see for themselves. I have respect for the effort and money it takes to make this game, I think the IP owners deserve to be compensated for their work.
You knew what you bought was counterfeit, and your murky ethics aparently allow you to support an illegal enterprise. By knowingly buying these then boasting about it you are pomoting it. Whether it is illegal in the country in question or not is irrelevant once you are paying for transport to a country where IP is protected.
I guarantee that if you produced some sort of valuable IP and relied on it for your living you would have a different position. You seem to only care about what benefits you.
I don't condone pirating magic cards, but sometimes pirating has silver linings. Music piracy pushed artists away from "add 10 more garbage songs so we can sell it as an album" when their monetization model changed. Video game piracy has pushed game developers towards awesome multiplayer games that people want to talk about, like MOBAs, or games that are artistic and novel enough that you don't want to pirate them out of respect, like Portal.
Maybe magic will change to become more like multiplayer video games, where the vast majority of matches DON'T involve a disdvantage caused by finances, which would be something I'd like to see.
I've just handled a bunch of these cards and I really can't tell the difference. There's are a few that have obvious printing errors on them, but all the others look and feel real to me. I think the biggest hint for me would be that they're super old cards in NM condition but that can easily be taken care of.
I don't condone pirating magic cards, but sometimes pirating has silver linings. Music piracy pushed artists away from "add 10 more garbage songs so we can sell it as an album" when their monetization model changed. Video game piracy has pushed game developers towards awesome multiplayer games that people want to talk about, like MOBAs, or games that are artistic and novel enough that you don't want to pirate them out of respect, like Portal.
Its not like the world doesnt change regardless.
In music we get the same bad quality as ever, now you get them for 99 cents a song and you do not own them at all, they are bound to a platform of a service. Not really the way i want it to be ...
So i absolutely would not say anything got better. It just changed how stuff is sold, simply because the market is much bigger, the platforms are different (smartphones especially) and internet is widely available, cheap and its more than easy to buy anything you want online.
Maybe magic will change to become more like multiplayer video games, where the vast majority of matches DON'T involve a disdvantage caused by finances, which would be something I'd like to see.
Magic is a collectable card game. Its an important aspect of the game that it has "value" to its product and not just cards to play.
I've just handled a bunch of these cards and I really can't tell the difference. There's are a few that have obvious printing errors on them, but all the others look and feel real to me. I think the biggest hint for me would be that they're super old cards in NM condition but that can easily be taken care of.
Okay, so here's a question I don't see getting asked much. I'm noticing the trend (both ebay and a couple of retail sites) that the price difference between NM and "played" condition cards is getting closer. This says to me that players are willing to buy played cards on the hopes that "played" condition means authentic card. But are they? If the lowlifes who are trying to pass counterfeits as real are paying attn, are we going to see a trend towards those people trying to artificially "age" the fakes? Is this even possible? Are the fakes going to age in the same manner, or will they become easier to identify as fake if they've been artificially aged? When do we have to start paying attn to ALL cards, instead of just those NM cards?
You answered your own question: no, its not a sure thing.
Even so, I think the logic behind buying SP cards is that how a card wears is another variable that counterfeiters may or may not have really perfected yet. Different materials might show wear differently. It's also a difficult thing to experiment with, because the buyer of a forged lot is typically going to judge the quality immediately when they arrive, in NM form, so there's a much smaller market and smaller incentive for counterfeiters to ensure their card wears the same as a normal Magic card. That's not an insane thing to think.
The other idea here is that the uptick on SP cards could be completely unrelated to counterfeits as such. It could simply be a symptom of the fact that cards (even Standard cards) are stupid expensive nowadays so the demand for cheaper versions, beat up or not, is rising.
See, I don't have anything against using fake cards. I'm a legacy player, and you know what? It feels HORRIBLE when the guy across the table cant afford underground seas, and loses because he needs to shock himself and then shock again off of a daze. Wasteland is really nasty against shocks.
I think the real shame is that people are PAYING for fakes, instead of wizards allowing "x" number of proxes at certien sanctioned events. Its not like they make money off of reserve list cards, or cards that haven't been printed for years outside of judge promos.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy
Death and Taxes Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
And another Era of these counterfeits invades. I ran into someone at my local playgroup bragging how a "gentleman" ( I use the term very loosely) sold him his set of duals. We proceeded to compare them to one's we already had that were the real deal, ones which my dad had given to me so that I could play legacy and I've been very slowly paying off. Without a loupe I have no idea which are which, and even under a loupe they have eliminated major differences in print patterns but still not perfect.
I hear all the arguments and both sides but let's be honest for a second. It's illegal plain and simple. End of discussion. Having people buy and support this can and will ruin our game.
fyi, the new generation of chinese fakes are out. http://imgur.com/a/yiHpf
be on the lookout for the following cards on the list when trading
I saw some of these in person the other day and they were really exciting: you can't really tell they're fake at all without a loupe, and even then, it's hard to tell unless you have a real equivalent of the card side-by-side. <The Modern staples are all a high-quality product that I would recommend for tournament play> (can't tell you where to find them due to site rules, though). I'm glad these guys are stepping up and doing something to reduce the rising costs of the game.
The old cards, like the Tabernacle and beta duals, are still kind of bad, though. The borders are too thick and too dark and I suspect they've never actually seen a real one.
Public Mod Note
(cryogen):
Infraction for promotion of illegal activity
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
These days, some wizards are finding they have a little too much deck left at the end of their $$$.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
Chronicles may have been a mistake at the time. But magic is too big to fail from a set like that now. Reserve list needs to go, or people are going to spend more time buying proxies. Thus cutting into Hasbro's profits, which will cut wizard's budget, which will kill magic. People want to play with old cards, counterfeiting old magic cards sets the precedent to counterfeit any magic card. As the monetary incentive goes up, so does the incentive to make those counterfeits. Hell, the recent buyouts on everything on the reserve list is accelerating this process. Wizards will either facilitate the people that want to play the older format, or they will fail. It might not happen tomorrow, or next week, or five years from now. But it will happen if wizards decides to keep with this twenty year old promise, the staff has changed, almost no one who was there for that promise still works at wizards, and reprints of cards that lots of people want has not killed the game. I dont want there to be another chronicles. But refusing to reprint any of these cards is a surefire way to kick it off
I'm at the point where I'd rather buy the high dollar cards from quality counterfeiters because the price is insane.
The RL needs to go or the formats we love will be too costly to play and then only the rich or thoes that were alive to buy the original cheap can play.
I hate t2, I love t1/1.5 and so far I'd have to save for a decade just to buy a couple t1 cards.
When the RL goes more people will be less likely to buy high quality fakes.
And because of that i hope they will give a one-year-ban to people caught with fakes, and a lifetime ban for the second offence.
Whether they knew it or not? And if you don't want to ban people who had no intention of playing with fakes that someone passed off as real, how do you prove they did know (barring obvious idiots who brag that they're playing with fakes... anyone who does that deserves their ban.)
You're advocating a 1-year ban for breaking the rules even if someone didn't know they were playing with counterfeits. What if they borrowed the deck from a friend, should they be auto-banned? If they bought cards to finish it that day and they turned out to be good but not perfect fakes, that they just didn't look at closely enough? Is it fair to ban people in either case?
The counterfeiting issue is a direct result of WotC trying to limit supply, either with no reprints, or reprints insufficient to meet demand. WotC is the only entity who can legally correct the market, and they choose not to do so. I don't agree with counterfeiting, but Wotc's counterfeiting woes are entirely of their own making, and eliminating counterfeits is within their power. They WILL not kill counterfeiting, although they can by opening the floodgates on legal reprints. That makes speculators mad, though, so in the end, there are 2 groups of selfish people trying to profit from WotC's IP, and neither deserves any sympathy.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
The counterfeiting issue is a direct result of WotC trying to limit supply, either with no reprints, or reprints insufficient to meet demand.
Oh, this old chestnut. Yea, just like it is my my fault for having nice things if someone breaks in and steals them.
Nope, but in a free market, if you aren't producing enough to meet demand, someone else WILL if they think they can make a profit from it. Counterfeiting is a clash between free-market ideals and IP-based monopoly. The normal saying is "the market always corrects itself," and counterfeiting is the market trying to correct itself because WotC won't. Market forces tend to be relentless. Counterfeiting is an illegal and immoral way for the market to equalize, and definitely less desirable than WotC actually working to equalize supply and demand itself. With no exaggeration, though, the market is out of balance and if WotC refuses to act, others will. It's not right, but market forces don't really care about right and wrong. If WotC wants to protect its IP, they need to defend themselves from counterfeiters, and the best (only?) way to actually do that is to fix the secondary market themselves, rather than letting others do it for them.
Edited in: I notice that you don't actually try to refute that it's true, you just ridicule it without addressing it. And I fell for it. You do know that the only entity that can fix the secondary market legally is WotC, right? And that if they refuse to do so, it creates an incentive for others to fill that demand illegally? WotC is their own worst enemy when it comes to counterfeiting.
Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
And because of that i hope they will give a one-year-ban to people caught with fakes, and a lifetime ban for the second offence.
I borrowed a friends legacy deck for a grand prix and was disqualified for counterfeit/proxy cards in the deck. The cards in question were a playset of show and tell. They told me that because one of the cards was a slight discoloration from the other three that it was not a real card. They gave me an option of replacing the card to stay in the tournament but I would have to rip/or mark the card as a fake, but I refused to do so. I refused because It was my friends card and he had told me that they were all pack pulled cards. He has a vast legacy collection and I have used several of his decks in the past with no issues. Older cards can have discolorations, so I have no idea if the card was actually a fake or not.
Unfortunately after my disqualification from the event and whatever "investigation/review" process I received a lengthy suspension from thr dci. I put those terms in quotes because I was never contacted for any follow up questions and neither was my friend who the deck belonged to. They had taken all of our information for follow up but I never received any notice until my dci number was suspended. Nor have I been allowed a chance to appeal this suspension in any form.
Ive played this game for over a decade with no prior incidents and I was even a certified DCI judge at the time of the incident. I feel like my disqualification and suspension was set as an example or a scare tactic to prevent other players from knowingly using counterfeits.
Edited in: I notice that you don't actually try to refute that it's true...
Why would I refute the fact that WotC have created a collectible card game? Of course prices for cards would go down if they were printed them eternally. That does not mean that WotC caused counterfeiting, greed by people who don't give a ***** about the creative works of othe people did.
The U.S. treasury prints money and we agree on it's value, but they (or we) have done nothing wrong that justifies counterfeiting that currency. Yes, if the dollar had less value it would not be counterfeited as much, but printing more is not the right answer, nor is it right for the consumer to tacitly engage in counterfeiting by way apathy.
There are only two parties that are the problem here, the counterfeiters and the people that knowingly buy and distribute counterfeit cards. Everything else- all this finger pointing at WotC and how they manage the game is just a smokescreen to hide the fact that such acts are wrong.
But, whatever. Thieves are always going to try and justify why they do it and make themselves to be some kind of anti-hero. It's bull*****, but I guess they have to do something to allow themselves to loom in the mirror, right.
Edited in: I notice that you don't actually try to refute that it's true...
Why would I refute the fact that WotC have created a collectible card game? Of course prices for cards would go down if they were printed them eternally. That does not mean that WotC caused counterfeiting, greed by people who don't give a ***** about the creative works of othe people did.
The U.S. treasury prints money and we agree on it's value, but they (or we) have done nothing wrong that justifies counterfeiting that currency. Yes, if the dollar had less value it would not be counterfeited as much, but printing more is not the right answer, nor is it right for the consumer to tacitly engage in counterfeiting by way apathy.
There are only two parties that are the problem here, the counterfeiters and the people that knowingly buy and distribute counterfeit cards. Everything else- all this finger pointing at WotC and how they manage the game is just a smokescreen to hide the fact that such acts are wrong.
But, whatever. Thieves are always going to try and justify why they do it and make themselves to be some kind of anti-hero. It's bull*****, but I guess they have to do something to allow themselves to loom in the mirror, right.
Magic cards have uses other than functioning as currency, so your analogy likening them to money is largely without merit. Counterfeiting is ethically wrong but the demand obviously exists. WotC can either meet this demand and profit enormously off of it or deal with the inevitable *****storm of counterfeiting madness that is to come. Evaluating the subject on purely moral grounds does nothing but make you feel better about yourself for being on the 'right' side.
Although I do think that buying a few pieces of cardboard a couple of decades ago (and/or paying large amounts of money for them afterwards) should entitle me to some protection against financial loss should said pieces of cardboard ever be acknowledged as pieces of cardboard.
Edited in: I notice that you don't actually try to refute that it's true...
Why would I refute the fact that WotC have created a collectible card game? Of course prices for cards would go down if they were printed them eternally. That does not mean that WotC caused counterfeiting, greed by people who don't give a ***** about the creative works of othe people did.
The U.S. treasury prints money and we agree on it's value, but they (or we) have done nothing wrong that justifies counterfeiting that currency. Yes, if the dollar had less value it would not be counterfeited as much, but printing more is not the right answer, nor is it right for the consumer to tacitly engage in counterfeiting by way apathy.
There are only two parties that are the problem here, the counterfeiters and the people that knowingly buy and distribute counterfeit cards. Everything else- all this finger pointing at WotC and how they manage the game is just a smokescreen to hide the fact that such acts are wrong.
But, whatever. Thieves are always going to try and justify why they do it and make themselves to be some kind of anti-hero. It's bull*****, but I guess they have to do something to allow themselves to loom in the mirror, right.
Magic cards have uses other than functioning as currency, so your analogy likening them to money is largely without merit. Counterfeiting is ethically wrong but the demand obviously exists. WotC can either meet this demand and profit enormously off of it or deal with the inevitable *****storm of counterfeiting madness that is to come. Evaluating the subject on purely moral grounds does nothing but make you feel better about yourself for being on the 'right' side.
Although I do think that buying a few pieces of cardboard a couple of decades ago (and/or paying large amounts of money for them afterwards) should entitle me to some protection against financial loss should said pieces of cardboard ever be acknowledged as pieces of cardboard.
But it is a moral question. Is counterfeiting morally wrong?
But it is a moral question. Is counterfeiting morally wrong?
Yes.
Anything else is beside the point.
Thank you. I just couldn't be bothered arguing the same point over and over. I really need to unsubscribe to this nonsense.
Though I did compose a very nice response in my head yesterday that involved liberal use of the word "falderal", but then decided to tickle my son instead of typing it.
Personally, I wouldn't buy counterfeits. My playgroup and LGS are both fairly lenient, and if I can write "CRATERHOOF BEHEMOTH" on a slip of paper and slide it in front of a card in a sleeve, there's no reason for me not to do that, instead.
Granted, I proxy primarily to test out Commander builds before I buy them, and I fully intend to purchase everything that I proxy and decide to keep. I don't see anything wrong with this approach. I've even seen almost fully proxied Commander decks at my LGS - which I totally understand, after having built a few decks and not entirely enjoying how they played out.
For Legacy, I'll be proxying because my LGS allows it (for a price), and they're starting to offer A/B/R duals as prizes for Legacy tournaments. So, it's a small investment for a huge payout - and I also intend to eventually fully own any Legacy decks I may use, as well.
Like I said, I don't see why it would be a problem for me to do this, especially as I fully intend to pick up the actual cards, eventually.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
If you are buying in person, and take the card out of the sleeve it's in, these fakes are pretty easy to spot. The paper stock and general feel of an unsleeved card is still markedly different. This may change, but it could be a while. As long as there are selfish people who respect intellectual property only in so far as it is convenient for them, then these things will be made.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
My guess is you want these things but want everyone else to pay for it. You want to get what's yours and expect that other people will keep doing the right thing and paying for the real game elements.
That said, I think you are just trying to stir people up. I don't believe that the counterfeits have gotten to the point that you can't tell when they are unsleeved and can be handled.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
You knew what you bought was counterfeit, and your murky ethics aparently allow you to support an illegal enterprise. By knowingly buying these then boasting about it you are pomoting it. Whether it is illegal in the country in question or not is irrelevant once you are paying for transport to a country where IP is protected.
I guarantee that if you produced some sort of valuable IP and relied on it for your living you would have a different position. You seem to only care about what benefits you.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Maybe magic will change to become more like multiplayer video games, where the vast majority of matches DON'T involve a disdvantage caused by finances, which would be something I'd like to see.
Its not like the world doesnt change regardless.
In music we get the same bad quality as ever, now you get them for 99 cents a song and you do not own them at all, they are bound to a platform of a service. Not really the way i want it to be ...
So i absolutely would not say anything got better. It just changed how stuff is sold, simply because the market is much bigger, the platforms are different (smartphones especially) and internet is widely available, cheap and its more than easy to buy anything you want online.
Magic is a collectable card game. Its an important aspect of the game that it has "value" to its product and not just cards to play.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Okay, so here's a question I don't see getting asked much. I'm noticing the trend (both ebay and a couple of retail sites) that the price difference between NM and "played" condition cards is getting closer. This says to me that players are willing to buy played cards on the hopes that "played" condition means authentic card. But are they? If the lowlifes who are trying to pass counterfeits as real are paying attn, are we going to see a trend towards those people trying to artificially "age" the fakes? Is this even possible? Are the fakes going to age in the same manner, or will they become easier to identify as fake if they've been artificially aged? When do we have to start paying attn to ALL cards, instead of just those NM cards?
Even so, I think the logic behind buying SP cards is that how a card wears is another variable that counterfeiters may or may not have really perfected yet. Different materials might show wear differently. It's also a difficult thing to experiment with, because the buyer of a forged lot is typically going to judge the quality immediately when they arrive, in NM form, so there's a much smaller market and smaller incentive for counterfeiters to ensure their card wears the same as a normal Magic card. That's not an insane thing to think.
The other idea here is that the uptick on SP cards could be completely unrelated to counterfeits as such. It could simply be a symptom of the fact that cards (even Standard cards) are stupid expensive nowadays so the demand for cheaper versions, beat up or not, is rising.
I think the real shame is that people are PAYING for fakes, instead of wizards allowing "x" number of proxes at certien sanctioned events. Its not like they make money off of reserve list cards, or cards that haven't been printed for years outside of judge promos.
Death and Taxes
Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron
Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
I hear all the arguments and both sides but let's be honest for a second. It's illegal plain and simple. End of discussion. Having people buy and support this can and will ruin our game.
I saw some of these in person the other day and they were really exciting: you can't really tell they're fake at all without a loupe, and even then, it's hard to tell unless you have a real equivalent of the card side-by-side. <The Modern staples are all a high-quality product that I would recommend for tournament play> (can't tell you where to find them due to site rules, though). I'm glad these guys are stepping up and doing something to reduce the rising costs of the game.
The old cards, like the Tabernacle and beta duals, are still kind of bad, though. The borders are too thick and too dark and I suspect they've never actually seen a real one.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
It is only a matter of time friend before they can get the pattern and jewel at the bottom right.
These cards are passing bend tests, light tests, and rip tests.
im not saying the sky is falling but its just a matter of time.
The RL needs to go or the formats we love will be too costly to play and then only the rich or thoes that were alive to buy the original cheap can play.
I hate t2, I love t1/1.5 and so far I'd have to save for a decade just to buy a couple t1 cards.
When the RL goes more people will be less likely to buy high quality fakes.
I hate ygo but they made it possible for people to still get the best powerful stuff.
Sure it killed the game but ygo was not as popular but it still has events and cards printed cheap.
Anymore I'd rather buy the best fakes because I don't want to spend my hard earned money on something that I may never get value back.
That's why I don't own RL cards, their value only goes up and I can't afford it.
But draft and t2 and blah bs, that version of magic sucka
Whether they knew it or not? And if you don't want to ban people who had no intention of playing with fakes that someone passed off as real, how do you prove they did know (barring obvious idiots who brag that they're playing with fakes... anyone who does that deserves their ban.)
You're advocating a 1-year ban for breaking the rules even if someone didn't know they were playing with counterfeits. What if they borrowed the deck from a friend, should they be auto-banned? If they bought cards to finish it that day and they turned out to be good but not perfect fakes, that they just didn't look at closely enough? Is it fair to ban people in either case?
The counterfeiting issue is a direct result of WotC trying to limit supply, either with no reprints, or reprints insufficient to meet demand. WotC is the only entity who can legally correct the market, and they choose not to do so. I don't agree with counterfeiting, but Wotc's counterfeiting woes are entirely of their own making, and eliminating counterfeits is within their power. They WILL not kill counterfeiting, although they can by opening the floodgates on legal reprints. That makes speculators mad, though, so in the end, there are 2 groups of selfish people trying to profit from WotC's IP, and neither deserves any sympathy.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
Oh, this old chestnut. Yea, just like it is my my fault for having nice things if someone breaks in and steals them. 🙄
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Nope, but in a free market, if you aren't producing enough to meet demand, someone else WILL if they think they can make a profit from it. Counterfeiting is a clash between free-market ideals and IP-based monopoly. The normal saying is "the market always corrects itself," and counterfeiting is the market trying to correct itself because WotC won't. Market forces tend to be relentless. Counterfeiting is an illegal and immoral way for the market to equalize, and definitely less desirable than WotC actually working to equalize supply and demand itself. With no exaggeration, though, the market is out of balance and if WotC refuses to act, others will. It's not right, but market forces don't really care about right and wrong. If WotC wants to protect its IP, they need to defend themselves from counterfeiters, and the best (only?) way to actually do that is to fix the secondary market themselves, rather than letting others do it for them.
Edited in: I notice that you don't actually try to refute that it's true, you just ridicule it without addressing it. And I fell for it. You do know that the only entity that can fix the secondary market legally is WotC, right? And that if they refuse to do so, it creates an incentive for others to fill that demand illegally? WotC is their own worst enemy when it comes to counterfeiting.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
I borrowed a friends legacy deck for a grand prix and was disqualified for counterfeit/proxy cards in the deck. The cards in question were a playset of show and tell. They told me that because one of the cards was a slight discoloration from the other three that it was not a real card. They gave me an option of replacing the card to stay in the tournament but I would have to rip/or mark the card as a fake, but I refused to do so. I refused because It was my friends card and he had told me that they were all pack pulled cards. He has a vast legacy collection and I have used several of his decks in the past with no issues. Older cards can have discolorations, so I have no idea if the card was actually a fake or not.
Unfortunately after my disqualification from the event and whatever "investigation/review" process I received a lengthy suspension from thr dci. I put those terms in quotes because I was never contacted for any follow up questions and neither was my friend who the deck belonged to. They had taken all of our information for follow up but I never received any notice until my dci number was suspended. Nor have I been allowed a chance to appeal this suspension in any form.
Ive played this game for over a decade with no prior incidents and I was even a certified DCI judge at the time of the incident. I feel like my disqualification and suspension was set as an example or a scare tactic to prevent other players from knowingly using counterfeits.
Why would I refute the fact that WotC have created a collectible card game? Of course prices for cards would go down if they were printed them eternally. That does not mean that WotC caused counterfeiting, greed by people who don't give a ***** about the creative works of othe people did.
The U.S. treasury prints money and we agree on it's value, but they (or we) have done nothing wrong that justifies counterfeiting that currency. Yes, if the dollar had less value it would not be counterfeited as much, but printing more is not the right answer, nor is it right for the consumer to tacitly engage in counterfeiting by way apathy.
There are only two parties that are the problem here, the counterfeiters and the people that knowingly buy and distribute counterfeit cards. Everything else- all this finger pointing at WotC and how they manage the game is just a smokescreen to hide the fact that such acts are wrong.
But, whatever. Thieves are always going to try and justify why they do it and make themselves to be some kind of anti-hero. It's bull*****, but I guess they have to do something to allow themselves to loom in the mirror, right.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Magic cards have uses other than functioning as currency, so your analogy likening them to money is largely without merit. Counterfeiting is ethically wrong but the demand obviously exists. WotC can either meet this demand and profit enormously off of it or deal with the inevitable *****storm of counterfeiting madness that is to come. Evaluating the subject on purely moral grounds does nothing but make you feel better about yourself for being on the 'right' side.
Although I do think that buying a few pieces of cardboard a couple of decades ago (and/or paying large amounts of money for them afterwards) should entitle me to some protection against financial loss should said pieces of cardboard ever be acknowledged as pieces of cardboard.
But it is a moral question. Is counterfeiting morally wrong?
Yes.
Anything else is beside the point.
Thank you. I just couldn't be bothered arguing the same point over and over. I really need to unsubscribe to this nonsense.
Though I did compose a very nice response in my head yesterday that involved liberal use of the word "falderal", but then decided to tickle my son instead of typing it.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Granted, I proxy primarily to test out Commander builds before I buy them, and I fully intend to purchase everything that I proxy and decide to keep. I don't see anything wrong with this approach. I've even seen almost fully proxied Commander decks at my LGS - which I totally understand, after having built a few decks and not entirely enjoying how they played out.
For Legacy, I'll be proxying because my LGS allows it (for a price), and they're starting to offer A/B/R duals as prizes for Legacy tournaments. So, it's a small investment for a huge payout - and I also intend to eventually fully own any Legacy decks I may use, as well.
Like I said, I don't see why it would be a problem for me to do this, especially as I fully intend to pick up the actual cards, eventually.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player