At the prerelease, there was a game that I should of lost, but ended up winning
This was a smaller prerelease with about 20 people, and there was no official judge, but the TO told everyone that I would be the Rules Adviser, so I was designated as the responsible and knowledgeable one.
Essentially, I was playing against a brand new player who had a better sealed pool than I did, the least experienced in the room, and was attacking him with a cavern lampad, There was one time where he tried to block with a blue creature, and I told him that he couldn't because it had Intimidate
and it came to the last turn, and he had a Opaline Unicorn up to block with, and lethal on the board. I attacked, and he said "I suppose I lose", and I let him concede/die to damage.
Should I feel bad about this. I know that it wasn't cheating, but I won because a new player misunderstood intimidate.
No. If he had asked you, "Can I block with this?" and you said "No" that would be sleazy. He did not ask so that's his fault. It's not your job to go out of your way to make your opponent win, although I end up doing this at noncompetitive REL. It just sticks in your craw to know you would have won if you had just shut up. I hate reminding my opponents of their triggers and when to properly play combat tricks and they end up beating me, but it's OK to swallow your pride every once in a while to teach new players.
Although, you probably could have been more explicit with what "intimidate" meant exactly. The reminder text is not on Cavern Lampad.
he will figure out what happened eventually and when he does his opinion of you will drop...
I did tell him about it eventually, after we were done with the match, guilt got the better of me and I said "I think you could have blocked my intimidate guy with your artifact in game 2", and he responded "Yeah, I suppose I'm dumb".
Depending on how incomplete the original explanation of intimidate was, probably quite bad.
In that instant when you realize "he doesn't know he can block" it's very difficult for your conscious to ramp up and sway your actions in time. The fact that it's beating you up now, to the point you felt the need to come here and confess, is a good thing IMO.
If you don't know the story you should Google "MTG all my legal targets gain fear." I think it's related in a roundabout way.
he will figure out what happened eventually and when he does his opinion of you will drop...
I did tell him about it eventually, after we were done with the match, guilt got the better of me and I said "I think you could have blocked my intimidate guy with your artifact in game 2", and he responded "Yeah, I suppose I'm dumb".
well then it seems you did the right thing after the fact and he learned a lesson
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard: UWG Bant Control
EDH: UArcum Dagsson
Modern: Affinity
Vintage: BUR Grixis Control
Legacy: W Mono-White : U Merfolk : BUG Esper Stoneblade : RBG Punishing Jund : B Reanimator : RU Sneak and Show : GB Infect : RG Red/Green Devotion : RUG RUG Delver
I would say no you shouldn't go out of your way to help your opponent win but... at the same time you were the rules advisor, and when explaining intimidate you told him he couldn't block with blue creatures, instead of "it can only be blocked by artifact creatures and creatures of the same color" you didn't explain the rules very well which likely later lead to a victory over him.
Then again, if a creature with an ability hit the board he did not recognize, he should have found a clear explanation of the cards ability for himself before continuing anyway, making mistakes is all part of the learning process, though your position as a rule advisor does make the situation a bit easier to critic.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"OMG I love this game! CoPs FTW!" ~ Savage Dream Lord
There was one time where he tried to block with a blue creature, and I told him that he couldn't because it had Intimidate
This would be the key bit for me. What exactly did you say about intimidate? If you somehow implied that creatures with intimidate are unblockable even if you did so by not explaining how it works, then a new player, already worried about how slow he plays might simply take your word for it in order not to hold things up.
But if you told him how it works when it first came up, and he then later forgot about it, your conscience should be clear IMO
I think my exact words when it happened were "you can't do that, he has intimidate". I did say "can only be blocked by artifacts or creatures that share it's color", but that was about 5-10ish seconds later after I had the Epiphany of "maybe I should tell him what intimidate is", and I wasn't certain that it sunk in, even at the time
I did tell him about it eventually, after we were done with the match, guilt got the better of me and I said "I think you could have blocked my intimidate guy with your artifact in game 2", and he responded "Yeah, I suppose I'm dumb".
And then when a new player gets whipped on and made to feel like an ass, we act all surprised when they never come out to tournaments again. If the rules advisor around here did that around me, I'd lose respect for them.
If you explicitly explained what intimidate does, you don't need to feel bad, I think. If you are both playing in a competitive tournament for prizes, you did your job as a rules advisor and explained the rules. I was also the designated RA for most of the events I played in last weekend, and played against some sketchy players. If they had questions about the rules, I explained them and then proceeded to take advantage of any play mistakes they made to win my match, same as I would any other. I would NEVER skew information in my favor if they had a question, but if someone wants to attack their 2/2 into my 5/5 when they're tapped out, I'm not going to tell them its a bad idea.
I had one thing happen recently I felt dirty about at GP Sac. I was playing in a side event sealed and we were in game 3. Turn 3 or 4, my opponent casts pharika's cure on my heroic guy and I battlewise valor to save it. We continue playing and I have her at lethal +1 on board about 10 minutes later. She looks at her life pad and says, "did I gain life from my cure?". I looked at mine and notice that she probably didn't, which we both had missed. I tell her so and immediately call a judge, since this is a competitive REL. He says at this point he can't turn back the game and that the life totals have to stay as they are, so she proceeds to lose to my board state. She signed the slip and packed up without saying anything. I felt bad, but I guess a missed trigger is missed, especially at a GP.
Every time I face a new player at FNM or a pre-release, I always try to help him win his game against me by allowing him to take back his move and telling him the correct play to make when they mess up.
Regardless, you did absolutely nothing wrong that should make you feel bad, you're not their to help him win by any means, if he wasn't sure about something he needs to ask. Just make sure you explain after the game exactly what went wrong that he could have improved on.
Let me put it this way, if a rules advisor came up to a game I was playing and said at the point of concede, "you can block with that guy," I would get the Rules Advisor banned. That is not advising him on rules, thats advising him on how to play. You fulfilled your obligation by explaining what intimidate was. It is their responsibility to remember it (especially when it never left the board).
As far as the GP Shadowlink was talking about, it may seem like life is a small factor that can be rewound (since it wouldn't interact with the board state), but in reality choices you make are affected by the opponents life total, and for all the judge knows, you would have put yourself in a more favorable state if you had known that they had more life. IMHO, if you show up at a GP and can't remember your triggers, you should probably go back to your LGS and work on your game.
That is a very good point I hadn't considered. If I knew I wasn't able to lethal her with my board (I was very dead if I didn't kill her that turn) then I may have made very different decisions leading up to that point. I try to keep diligent track of my opponents life total, but I'm not perfect, and consider remembering my own triggers to be much more important. I will admit I've missed a couple hits off soldiers of the pantheon, but I'm usually pretty on top of things.
There's a fine line between being fair and honest during a game, and playing both sides of the board.
I would've gone the other way in your case, just to keep the new guy coming to the shop, to give him a feel of the sportsmanship at the place.
I remember the last time a similar decision was in front of me. I was playing vs a very new player in an 8 man draft, and I had to remind her a few times to hold her cards in a way that I couldn't see them. One result of this was that I knew she had a Grey Merchant in her hand. I didn't like knowing part of her hand, but hey... can't unsee things.
I was at two life and dead if she ever cast it. But, she didn't. She conceded to my board state when she was nearly dead to my fliers. When she offered the concession, I considered just saying, "hey, just play your grey merchant and you win on the spot."
But I didn't, because for me, that would've been too much help. And weird help, since I really shouldn't know it was there.
She revealed her hand on purpose after the game, and I explained it to her, and she wasn't mad at all - in fact, she was kind of like, "oh, what a creative play..." Yep, super creative to play a creature that kills me on ETB.
One thing that I recommend for the future... if you're HJ of a tournament (you don't need to be a Judge to be a HJ), and you're in a game, have somebody _else_ answer judge calls when they regard your game.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'll be sad if people don't start calling The Chain Veil "Fleetwood Mac."
I remember being a new player, it was around a rotation, so I was then told I couldn't play standard, but that they were all legacy legal, so being the ignorant person I was, I took this home brewed deck to a legacy tournament. I got stomped. The relevance here, is that such stomping helped me learn, for instance in one game I was against a storm deck with a wincon of Empty the Warrens he plays that, passes back to me, I play a plains, and then on his turn he swings. I had rain of blades in hand, although due to being new I wasn't really thinking critically enough to notice, thus I lost. That experience however, allowed me to then learn to pay more attention to my hand.
The gist is, when you go to a tournament, and you're new, expect to lose, as well losing as a fault of yourself is what helps you learn.
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
If this were a tournament, I say let people make all the mistakes they can. But this was not such a competitive environment.
Instead, with zero on the line, zero consequences for losing other than your (apparently fragile) pride and ego, you let a newbie make an unforced error just so you could win a completely meaningless game.
Honestly, the fact that afterwards you came on to Salvation and asked us means you probably aren't 100% in the right, but do have the sense to question it
If it were me at a pre-release id have probably explained intimidate totally the first time, apart from that if my opponent misses something on board they missed it, i know i've done that a few times and whilst it annoys me initially i don't miss the same thing again.
That being said its very close, i think the initial explanation was sub par, but then i know when i was learning i tried to know as much as i could before i came to an event and expected to loose and just learn as much as possible, when people come and expect you to hold their hand and help you beat them i get rather confused. ill talk to people about plays and help them as much as i can after a match if they ask, im even pretty liberal with takesys backsies with newer players but if i attack with my intimidate guy for lethal and you choose not to block, then that sir, is a misplay.
Also with you not actually being a judge etc you cant be expected, in the context of a game you are playing to have to explain the rules totally. i recently got made 'unofficial judge' for a small draft we did on the side, but the TO said if i was involved in the match in question then someone else was instead, which is what they should have done here
You explained the rules early in the match. Which was correct. You let him concede which was fine. After the fact you gave him advice and taught him something that will help him in the future. I would say you are clean and just learn from your guilt that you are feeling. Magic is all about having fun. Chances are that your one attack wasn't your only ability to win, if you are more experienced you would have likely won in the end regardless. Naturally it is awesome to win while playing magic, especially competitive when prizes are on the line. But overall it's about having fun. I always help my opponents regardless of whether it will cost me games in the future. Blowing out your opponent because they don't understand certain lines of play, is just no fun and dirty play. Teaching an inexperienced player will help them enjoy the game more and in the end, will allow you to have a better meta to play and test in. I think that's the important part to see here. Next time you will have a harder time beating him with 1 creature that has intimidate in which case you will feel more challenged and hopefully find the game more fulfilling.
No, don't feel bad. It isn't your responsibility to remind him which blockers he can legally declare if he hasn't asked you directly. Maybe I'm a jerk, but I've let people fold in situations before where they thought they were dead on board (never quite something as fundamental as misunderstanding a keyword though) and I don't feel bad about it, because knowing how to play the game in a competitive setting is an important part of the game. Were you a jerk who rubbed it in the player's face? No. Did you remind him afterwards so he would learn from his mistake? Yes. Imagining every new player will run off because they were beaten by their own ignorance is silly. There a plenty of us that have made newbie mistakes and are still around.
I'd probably also offer some tips to that person, but not during a pre-release which I have spent money on to compete in.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
This was a smaller prerelease with about 20 people, and there was no official judge, but the TO told everyone that I would be the Rules Adviser, so I was designated as the responsible and knowledgeable one.
Essentially, I was playing against a brand new player who had a better sealed pool than I did, the least experienced in the room, and was attacking him with a cavern lampad, There was one time where he tried to block with a blue creature, and I told him that he couldn't because it had Intimidate
and it came to the last turn, and he had a Opaline Unicorn up to block with, and lethal on the board. I attacked, and he said "I suppose I lose", and I let him concede/die to damage.
Should I feel bad about this. I know that it wasn't cheating, but I won because a new player misunderstood intimidate.
Although, you probably could have been more explicit with what "intimidate" meant exactly. The reminder text is not on Cavern Lampad.
Standard: UWG Bant Control
EDH: UArcum Dagsson
Modern: Affinity
Vintage: BUR Grixis Control
Legacy: W Mono-White : U Merfolk : BUG Esper Stoneblade : RBG Punishing Jund : B Reanimator : RU Sneak and Show : GB Infect : RG Red/Green Devotion : RUG RUG Delver
I did tell him about it eventually, after we were done with the match, guilt got the better of me and I said "I think you could have blocked my intimidate guy with your artifact in game 2", and he responded "Yeah, I suppose I'm dumb".
Depending on how incomplete the original explanation of intimidate was, probably quite bad.
In that instant when you realize "he doesn't know he can block" it's very difficult for your conscious to ramp up and sway your actions in time. The fact that it's beating you up now, to the point you felt the need to come here and confess, is a good thing IMO.
If you don't know the story you should Google "MTG all my legal targets gain fear." I think it's related in a roundabout way.
well then it seems you did the right thing after the fact and he learned a lesson
Standard: UWG Bant Control
EDH: UArcum Dagsson
Modern: Affinity
Vintage: BUR Grixis Control
Legacy: W Mono-White : U Merfolk : BUG Esper Stoneblade : RBG Punishing Jund : B Reanimator : RU Sneak and Show : GB Infect : RG Red/Green Devotion : RUG RUG Delver
Then again, if a creature with an ability hit the board he did not recognize, he should have found a clear explanation of the cards ability for himself before continuing anyway, making mistakes is all part of the learning process, though your position as a rule advisor does make the situation a bit easier to critic.
Art is life itself.
This would be the key bit for me. What exactly did you say about intimidate? If you somehow implied that creatures with intimidate are unblockable even if you did so by not explaining how it works, then a new player, already worried about how slow he plays might simply take your word for it in order not to hold things up.
But if you told him how it works when it first came up, and he then later forgot about it, your conscience should be clear IMO
And then when a new player gets whipped on and made to feel like an ass, we act all surprised when they never come out to tournaments again. If the rules advisor around here did that around me, I'd lose respect for them.
I had one thing happen recently I felt dirty about at GP Sac. I was playing in a side event sealed and we were in game 3. Turn 3 or 4, my opponent casts pharika's cure on my heroic guy and I battlewise valor to save it. We continue playing and I have her at lethal +1 on board about 10 minutes later. She looks at her life pad and says, "did I gain life from my cure?". I looked at mine and notice that she probably didn't, which we both had missed. I tell her so and immediately call a judge, since this is a competitive REL. He says at this point he can't turn back the game and that the life totals have to stay as they are, so she proceeds to lose to my board state. She signed the slip and packed up without saying anything. I felt bad, but I guess a missed trigger is missed, especially at a GP.
Regardless, you did absolutely nothing wrong that should make you feel bad, you're not their to help him win by any means, if he wasn't sure about something he needs to ask. Just make sure you explain after the game exactly what went wrong that he could have improved on.
As far as the GP Shadowlink was talking about, it may seem like life is a small factor that can be rewound (since it wouldn't interact with the board state), but in reality choices you make are affected by the opponents life total, and for all the judge knows, you would have put yourself in a more favorable state if you had known that they had more life. IMHO, if you show up at a GP and can't remember your triggers, you should probably go back to your LGS and work on your game.
I would've gone the other way in your case, just to keep the new guy coming to the shop, to give him a feel of the sportsmanship at the place.
I remember the last time a similar decision was in front of me. I was playing vs a very new player in an 8 man draft, and I had to remind her a few times to hold her cards in a way that I couldn't see them. One result of this was that I knew she had a Grey Merchant in her hand. I didn't like knowing part of her hand, but hey... can't unsee things.
I was at two life and dead if she ever cast it. But, she didn't. She conceded to my board state when she was nearly dead to my fliers. When she offered the concession, I considered just saying, "hey, just play your grey merchant and you win on the spot."
But I didn't, because for me, that would've been too much help. And weird help, since I really shouldn't know it was there.
She revealed her hand on purpose after the game, and I explained it to her, and she wasn't mad at all - in fact, she was kind of like, "oh, what a creative play..." Yep, super creative to play a creature that kills me on ETB.
One thing that I recommend for the future... if you're HJ of a tournament (you don't need to be a Judge to be a HJ), and you're in a game, have somebody _else_ answer judge calls when they regard your game.
The gist is, when you go to a tournament, and you're new, expect to lose, as well losing as a fault of yourself is what helps you learn.
Instead, with zero on the line, zero consequences for losing other than your (apparently fragile) pride and ego, you let a newbie make an unforced error just so you could win a completely meaningless game.
If it were me at a pre-release id have probably explained intimidate totally the first time, apart from that if my opponent misses something on board they missed it, i know i've done that a few times and whilst it annoys me initially i don't miss the same thing again.
That being said its very close, i think the initial explanation was sub par, but then i know when i was learning i tried to know as much as i could before i came to an event and expected to loose and just learn as much as possible, when people come and expect you to hold their hand and help you beat them i get rather confused. ill talk to people about plays and help them as much as i can after a match if they ask, im even pretty liberal with takesys backsies with newer players but if i attack with my intimidate guy for lethal and you choose not to block, then that sir, is a misplay.
Also with you not actually being a judge etc you cant be expected, in the context of a game you are playing to have to explain the rules totally. i recently got made 'unofficial judge' for a small draft we did on the side, but the TO said if i was involved in the match in question then someone else was instead, which is what they should have done here
I'd probably also offer some tips to that person, but not during a pre-release which I have spent money on to compete in.