I don't mind ripping off casual players If I feel they have the ''my cards are pure gold and yours are just ****, you're lucky I consider trading with you'' attitude.
Pisses me off more than anything, I will gladly take your thoughtseize and shock lands for my 50 cents junk. Hate those kids. Acting like they know everything about magic with their trashy casual decks 3 colors decks filled with basic lands and 4-5 drops.
Otherwise, I'm the first to check out values and make even trades if I trade with nice people.
OP, you're a good guy.
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Playing modern: all BGx, storm, burn, green eldrazi, dredge.
I, being a casual player, think that the OP has done the right thing.
Though, sometimes those of us who are "casual" know a bit about trading cards.
I went to a convention and I had a couple Bonfire of the Damned with me along with some other trade bait.
It seemed like everyone was afraid that they were taking advantage of me. What I finally convinced them of is that so long as both sides of the trade are happy with the outcome, then the trade is fair.
I traded a single Bonfire to another player for the Player Reward foil Lightning Bolt and he insisted that I take more cards because the Bonfire was worth more. I finally allowed him to force a few other cards on me.
Current value:
Bonfire: I can pick one up for less than $5
Player Reward Lightning Bolt: Good luck finding one for less than $15 in NM.
I'd do the same thing OP. Let the other side know that certain cards have value and you are welcome to pull out more cards. In the end though, it boils down to 'if both sides are happy with the trade, then alright.'
In my shoes, what would you have done? Taken advantage of the casual who doesn't know, or really care about prices? Or what I did?
Yours is the best approach to dealing with casual traders unaware of card values. Casual players can turn their chase rare pulls into a ton of fun stuff and that will keep them playing, improve their decks, stimulate creativity, and increase the fun factor. The last time I was playing with a noob who really enjoys the game I pulled all of his cards valued at 5 dollars or more (most of which were not in decks) and he was sitting on 50-100 bucks worth of cards that I wanted (mostly shocks) so I offered to trade him the cards he needed to really kick his decks up a notch. Everybody wins. Nickel and dimeing while trading is bad enough, ripping the uninformed is for douche bags.
I am always of the mindset that you treat other how you want to be treated. If I was in the other guys shoes, I would appreciate not being taken advantage of. I'm glad you did the right thing and I hope the karma comes back to you double with your pulls and draws in tournaments.
It's also good to earn respect of players where they are more likely to trade with you and take your opinion. You are also more likely to be invited to play again and you didn't put your friend in a bad spot. It could get frustrating for him having a neighbor that is upset because his friend ripped him in a trade.
I always disclose full values of everything during any trade, just to make sure we're on the same page. While I play in a highly competitive circle, there are always plenty of casual FNM'ers around as well, and I would not burn my reputation as an honest player to score a few extra bucks in a trade.
Now, if after disclosing value, the other party still wants to go through with the trade, that's their decision, but I want them to make that with full knowledge of what they're doing. This is even more important when trading with younger players.
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Currently playing:
Standard: I, for one, welcome our new rhinoceros overlords
Modern: Pod's dead, Bob's back.
Legacy: Lands, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, Elves, MUD
Retired Legacy: Merfolk, Goblins, Jund, Delver, Reanimator
I've had a few casual or new players suggest trades massively in my favor because they don't know the prices. I refuse and try to make the trade as even as possible.
I always make sure the trade value is around the same, even if they don't know. It's gained me friends and has given me the first chance to trade for certain cards that they obtain (this is how I was able to finally get my Sylvan Library).
No one wants to be known as "that *******". I had a friend cheat a returning player out of his Jitte by trading him 7 dollars worth of cards for it. Even though he got the better end of the deal, it reflects very badly on him.
I have no problem with trading, say, a vampire nocturnus for a liliana of the veil. If they don't know the value of their cards, then they deserve to be "taken advantage of".
It's like saying to someone buying a candy bar, "hey, you can get that same candy bar for 50 cents less". The store would be pissed, and rightfully so.
And you would be ousted from my local LGS and probably be known as that guy who sucks at life.
Edit: your tactics are like that of a rapist. Sooner or later, karma will smite upon your doorstep and leave you broken, disassembled, and alone. (If you already aren't).
There is never an appropriate time to compare game habits to rape. Infraction issued for inappropriate language. -Xen
You did the right thing. As long both parties know the real value of the cards without hiding information and at the end of the trade their are happy, it's all good.
One time a guy was playing the Game Day and wanted some Fabled Heroes for his deck. He pulled his shoe box of cards full of heavily played old cards. I was hopeful to find some old cards like Ashnod's Altar for EDH and started looking through his stuff. I was joking that he may have some really valuable cards as he said he was pretty outdated about valued.
I ended up fishing a NM Force of Will and Wasteland from his pile of junk cards (I found the Ashnod's Altars I wanted as well). He said he'd never played those cards as he thought they were bad cards. I said the value of the cards and he got shocked. I recommended him to sell them for cash.
I have spent the last 18 years learning the prices. I will not let that go to waste when trading. I always trade for more value or break even. I try to capitalize off of my learned knowledge like any legitimate tradesman would. Do you think a plumber or electrician would cut you break because of your lack of knowledge?
I don't think taxes count in this situation. It's only taxable if he ever turns his cardboard into actual money. Not that I condone it, but it's cardboard for cardboard with some numbers attached that can fluctuate.
I have spent the last 18 years learning the prices. I will not let that go to waste when trading. I always trade for more value or break even. I try to capitalize off of my learned knowledge like any legitimate tradesman would. Do you think a plumber or electrician would cut you break because of your lack of knowledge?
If I found out a plumber or electrician ripped me off because I didn't know how much the job should cost, I would never hire them again, so...
If I found out a plumber or electrician ripped me off because I didn't know how much the job should cost, I would never hire them again, so...
No hes basically saying that if a plumber fixed a simple problem that only took a few seconds, but it costs 50$ in parts, would you find any plumber in the world who would just charge you 50$ for that?
Don't get tricked by assuming someone is above casual because you met them at a tournament. On Wednesday I was at school when I saw someone I knew from FNM and she wanted to trade. So we did and she surprised me by not really looking at what I wanted and okaying a trade I thought would go to negotiations. I made about $30 in value and lost maybe $5 overall. *shrug* I'm not a completely terrible person though and plan to give her things for the EDH deck she's building.
No hes basically saying that if a plumber fixed a simple problem that only took a few seconds, but it costs 50$ in parts, would you find any plumber in the world who would just charge you 50$ for that?
A plumber is explicitly charging you for their knowledge. If you want to charge people for your card knowledge -- tell them beforehand! Many people are willing to pay a "convenience fee" on a trade to have their stuff appraised by a trustworthy individual, or to trade with somebody who's easy to trade with because they're looking for anything they can re-trade. Lying to people is unprofessional and unnecessary to make money in Magic.
I've yet to do any trading nor do I plan to soon but here's my 2 cents.
I've been a regular at flea markets and garage sales for years, I'm a bargain hunter. I collect a few different things. I go out to these things and I often buy things for far less than they are worth. I've bought things I knew were worth $300.00 for $20.00, sometimes with the plan of selling it for near its true value (though usually on the low end to give a fellow collector a solid deal). I didn't feel even slightly bad about doing so. You are responsible for knowing the value of your items.
If I know the value of what you're selling (or trading) and you don't, that's certainly not my fault. It isn't my job to protect you from yourself. I won't lie to you, that's a hard rule of mine. I won't say something is worth less than I know it to be, though I may evade the question if you ask what something is worth because again, it isn't my job to price your items. If you care about getting what something is worth, then take the 30 seconds to look it up. It is extremely easy in today's day and age.
In a trade I would look at things slightly differently, in that I wouldn't want to completely take you as that might make you more apprehensive about trading with me in the future, but I'm also certainly not going to worry about making the deal perfectly even.
Ultimately in matters like this I have two rules. Don't blatantly lie, and don't deal with kids. At garage sales I often have parents send their kids over to try and sell something, I make sure to go to the parents and work the deal out with them and have them set the price. If I was at a game store and a kid really wanted to trade, I would likely make sure to give very close to exact value.
Just to be clear, I'm also not advocating lowballing people intentionally. When I go to a garage sale if they insist on me making an offer, I make a reasonable offer which is still a good deal for me. I prefer to have them set the price though and pay them what they feel it is worth. If I'm proposing a trade, I'd offer what I feel is a fair value, though it likely will work out more in my favor at least to some degree. If they offer me a trade though, If I'm dealing with an adult and they propose it I feel no guilt in accepting.
I do essentially what you did, for many reasons. In no particular order:
1. It's a small community. Making an $80 lopsided trade now could mean no one trading with you at all when it turns out the person you ripped off knows how to use Facebook/Twitter/etc.
2. It's a fiend of a friend, sure they may never find out, but you could also be making yourself and your friend look bad.
3. It's bad for the game. The more people who play, the more events, the more support, and more acceptance, and the more opportunities there are. Turning one casual player off from the game could prevent dozens of people from picking it up in the future.
4. If someone didn't do it to you as a new player, respect that and pass it on. If someone did it as a new player, think about how it feels now, and don't be that guy.
5. Networking matters, if even for selfish reasons. The guy you rip off today may be the one not offering you a job and a 20% raise in the future. They may may steer their friend with the foil Russian misprint one of a kind commander general you need away from you. They may sway their buddy from offering you a draw instead forcing you to play a bad matchup and miss top 8.
6. This is a game. That we play for fun and socialization. No one gets rich playing it. Only a handful of people make even a middle class living playing it. The fact that you are reading this and not testing with some of the top players right now suggests that you're probably not one of those people, so why treat this like Donald Trump treats business, when it's just not that serious.
When it comes to purchasing collections or cards for cash, that's another story. If someone asks me what something is worth, I'm going to be honest, it's the right thing to do. Even if I tell them that, retail, their collection it probably worth 2 grand, probably 1500 and 20 hours of labor to sell on-line, or 900 to a store, that doesn't mean they wouldn't still prefer $300 in cash right now with 0 more work involved. If someone says "hey I've got a bunch of cards I'll sell you for a hundred bucks for this game I don't play anymore", I think it's fine to make that exchange, barring it being a $10,000 collection or something outrageous. If it's someone I know, I'll still offer to make the deal, but let them know what their collection is worth. A few hundred bucks is just not worth your integrity.
Just to be clear, I'm also not advocating lowballing people intentionally.
Yes, you are. You said so right here.
I've bought things I knew were worth $300.00 for $20.00, sometimes with the plan of selling it for near its true value (though usually on the low end to give a fellow collector a solid deal). I didn't feel even slightly bad about doing so.
No he didn't. Unless he proposed the $20 price, which from his post it sounds like he avoids doing at all costs, he paid the offered price. To low ball you must initiate the negotiation at a very low place.
No he didn't. Unless he proposed the $20 price, which from his post it sounds like he avoids doing at all costs, he paid the offered price. To low ball you must initiate the negotiation at a very low place.
If he went through with the transaction, he lowballed the value.
But if you insist on your very strangely strict definition of lowballing.
If he went through with the transaction, he lowballed the value.
But if you insist on your very strangely strict definition of lowballing.He also flat out said he regularly offers less than the value of it. That's lowballing it.
I believe you are taking a connotative view of low balling. If I am selling something and I am asking $20 for it and someone gives me $20 for it, it really does not matter what the true value is. No one was low balled. If I have something for sale but have not put a price to it and it is worth $20 and someone offers me $1, then I have been low balled. It is pretty straight forward.
To further defend the guy you seem to want to call out for low balling, he claims that he gets his deals at flea markets and garage sales. These are places where you don't expect to get market value as a seller, frankly there is rarely anything of real value there - besides beauty being in the eye of the beholder. So at that point people are clearly trying to rid themselves of an item in a manner that suggests that they are willing to take a discount, often a steep discount, and no one is forcing them to sell. While that may be a 'low ball' offer, it fits within the parameters of the venue and is to be expected by the sellers and buyers both.
1) If you're going to rip off people, at least own up to it. I know in some circles a lopsided trade is something to be celebrated, but if others think less of you because you ripped off a kid...own it, instead of trying to make it into something noble. It isn't. Excuses also seem really hollow.
2) Sharking people can indeed scar them for life. I was talking to a kid who opened a thoughtseize at Theros draft and said it was garbage. I said it was not and asked him if he wanted anything for it. I told him it was worth about $15 (which it was, at the time). He stated, "No, you're going to rip me off." After I told him the value and a couple of his friends vouched for the price I quoted, he still would not trade. So some people are beyond helping either way.
3) You want more people at your LGS, not less. If the store does better, it can run better events and maybe giveaway more prizes, etc. Sharking people is not a good way to attract new players. People get bit and don't come back, not just to the store but Magic in general. Not good for the community any way you slice it.
I dont trade since I always want the card I just traded away, so instead I just keep buying (I starve regularly...). But from observing my LSG, people seem to be super honest. There was one time I scooped up some kids Mana Reflector, at the time worth 10 dollars. I left it at the store and informed them of whose it was. I have never seen that kid again so I don't know if he got it. That was over a year ago.
-.- Still feel bad. He was like 15, so 10 bucks was probably a lot.
Every now and then I run into one of those people that doesn't care about prices, and if they want to trade I'll trade them.
Example is after Innistrad came out a guy had 4 Liliana's I wanted them and he didn't care how much they were worth, I got a full playset from him for ~20 dollars of value and he was as happy as a clam. How can I deny him that, I vehemently told him that hes getting ripped off BADLY and he didn't care.
Now on the flip side of this I would never misrepresent anything and try to scam people off cards they didn't know about because that's just scummy and I hate players that do garbage like that.
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Pisses me off more than anything, I will gladly take your thoughtseize and shock lands for my 50 cents junk. Hate those kids. Acting like they know everything about magic with their trashy casual decks 3 colors decks filled with basic lands and 4-5 drops.
Otherwise, I'm the first to check out values and make even trades if I trade with nice people.
OP, you're a good guy.
yup
Spam warning.
-Memnarch
Though, sometimes those of us who are "casual" know a bit about trading cards.
I went to a convention and I had a couple Bonfire of the Damned with me along with some other trade bait.
It seemed like everyone was afraid that they were taking advantage of me. What I finally convinced them of is that so long as both sides of the trade are happy with the outcome, then the trade is fair.
I traded a single Bonfire to another player for the Player Reward foil Lightning Bolt and he insisted that I take more cards because the Bonfire was worth more. I finally allowed him to force a few other cards on me.
Current value:
Bonfire: I can pick one up for less than $5
Player Reward Lightning Bolt: Good luck finding one for less than $15 in NM.
So, Casual players sometimes play a longer game.
Executive Infiltrator of [House Dimir].
My Trade Thread
Current EDH Decks
Braids
Wrexial
Bruna
Marath
Vorel
Tariel WIP
Yours is the best approach to dealing with casual traders unaware of card values. Casual players can turn their chase rare pulls into a ton of fun stuff and that will keep them playing, improve their decks, stimulate creativity, and increase the fun factor. The last time I was playing with a noob who really enjoys the game I pulled all of his cards valued at 5 dollars or more (most of which were not in decks) and he was sitting on 50-100 bucks worth of cards that I wanted (mostly shocks) so I offered to trade him the cards he needed to really kick his decks up a notch. Everybody wins. Nickel and dimeing while trading is bad enough, ripping the uninformed is for douche bags.
It's also good to earn respect of players where they are more likely to trade with you and take your opinion. You are also more likely to be invited to play again and you didn't put your friend in a bad spot. It could get frustrating for him having a neighbor that is upset because his friend ripped him in a trade.
</witty phrase>
Now, if after disclosing value, the other party still wants to go through with the trade, that's their decision, but I want them to make that with full knowledge of what they're doing. This is even more important when trading with younger players.
Standard: I, for one, welcome our new rhinoceros overlords
Modern: Pod's dead, Bob's back.
Legacy: Lands, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, Elves, MUD
Retired Legacy: Merfolk, Goblins, Jund, Delver, Reanimator
I always make sure the trade value is around the same, even if they don't know. It's gained me friends and has given me the first chance to trade for certain cards that they obtain (this is how I was able to finally get my Sylvan Library).
No one wants to be known as "that *******". I had a friend cheat a returning player out of his Jitte by trading him 7 dollars worth of cards for it. Even though he got the better end of the deal, it reflects very badly on him.
Jund
Legacy:
4c Loam
Noble BUG
And you would be ousted from my local LGS and probably be known as that guy who sucks at life.
Edit: your tactics are like that of a rapist. Sooner or later, karma will smite upon your doorstep and leave you broken, disassembled, and alone. (If you already aren't).
There is never an appropriate time to compare game habits to rape. Infraction issued for inappropriate language. -Xen
One time a guy was playing the Game Day and wanted some Fabled Heroes for his deck. He pulled his shoe box of cards full of heavily played old cards. I was hopeful to find some old cards like Ashnod's Altar for EDH and started looking through his stuff. I was joking that he may have some really valuable cards as he said he was pretty outdated about valued.
I ended up fishing a NM Force of Will and Wasteland from his pile of junk cards (I found the Ashnod's Altars I wanted as well). He said he'd never played those cards as he thought they were bad cards. I said the value of the cards and he got shocked. I recommended him to sell them for cash.
CardboardCreationism
ETSY COUNTERS
If I found out a plumber or electrician ripped me off because I didn't know how much the job should cost, I would never hire them again, so...
No hes basically saying that if a plumber fixed a simple problem that only took a few seconds, but it costs 50$ in parts, would you find any plumber in the world who would just charge you 50$ for that?
A plumber is explicitly charging you for their knowledge. If you want to charge people for your card knowledge -- tell them beforehand! Many people are willing to pay a "convenience fee" on a trade to have their stuff appraised by a trustworthy individual, or to trade with somebody who's easy to trade with because they're looking for anything they can re-trade. Lying to people is unprofessional and unnecessary to make money in Magic.
I've been a regular at flea markets and garage sales for years, I'm a bargain hunter. I collect a few different things. I go out to these things and I often buy things for far less than they are worth. I've bought things I knew were worth $300.00 for $20.00, sometimes with the plan of selling it for near its true value (though usually on the low end to give a fellow collector a solid deal). I didn't feel even slightly bad about doing so. You are responsible for knowing the value of your items.
If I know the value of what you're selling (or trading) and you don't, that's certainly not my fault. It isn't my job to protect you from yourself. I won't lie to you, that's a hard rule of mine. I won't say something is worth less than I know it to be, though I may evade the question if you ask what something is worth because again, it isn't my job to price your items. If you care about getting what something is worth, then take the 30 seconds to look it up. It is extremely easy in today's day and age.
In a trade I would look at things slightly differently, in that I wouldn't want to completely take you as that might make you more apprehensive about trading with me in the future, but I'm also certainly not going to worry about making the deal perfectly even.
Ultimately in matters like this I have two rules. Don't blatantly lie, and don't deal with kids. At garage sales I often have parents send their kids over to try and sell something, I make sure to go to the parents and work the deal out with them and have them set the price. If I was at a game store and a kid really wanted to trade, I would likely make sure to give very close to exact value.
Just to be clear, I'm also not advocating lowballing people intentionally. When I go to a garage sale if they insist on me making an offer, I make a reasonable offer which is still a good deal for me. I prefer to have them set the price though and pay them what they feel it is worth. If I'm proposing a trade, I'd offer what I feel is a fair value, though it likely will work out more in my favor at least to some degree. If they offer me a trade though, If I'm dealing with an adult and they propose it I feel no guilt in accepting.
1. It's a small community. Making an $80 lopsided trade now could mean no one trading with you at all when it turns out the person you ripped off knows how to use Facebook/Twitter/etc.
2. It's a fiend of a friend, sure they may never find out, but you could also be making yourself and your friend look bad.
3. It's bad for the game. The more people who play, the more events, the more support, and more acceptance, and the more opportunities there are. Turning one casual player off from the game could prevent dozens of people from picking it up in the future.
4. If someone didn't do it to you as a new player, respect that and pass it on. If someone did it as a new player, think about how it feels now, and don't be that guy.
5. Networking matters, if even for selfish reasons. The guy you rip off today may be the one not offering you a job and a 20% raise in the future. They may may steer their friend with the foil Russian misprint one of a kind commander general you need away from you. They may sway their buddy from offering you a draw instead forcing you to play a bad matchup and miss top 8.
6. This is a game. That we play for fun and socialization. No one gets rich playing it. Only a handful of people make even a middle class living playing it. The fact that you are reading this and not testing with some of the top players right now suggests that you're probably not one of those people, so why treat this like Donald Trump treats business, when it's just not that serious.
When it comes to purchasing collections or cards for cash, that's another story. If someone asks me what something is worth, I'm going to be honest, it's the right thing to do. Even if I tell them that, retail, their collection it probably worth 2 grand, probably 1500 and 20 hours of labor to sell on-line, or 900 to a store, that doesn't mean they wouldn't still prefer $300 in cash right now with 0 more work involved. If someone says "hey I've got a bunch of cards I'll sell you for a hundred bucks for this game I don't play anymore", I think it's fine to make that exchange, barring it being a $10,000 collection or something outrageous. If it's someone I know, I'll still offer to make the deal, but let them know what their collection is worth. A few hundred bucks is just not worth your integrity.
No he didn't. Unless he proposed the $20 price, which from his post it sounds like he avoids doing at all costs, he paid the offered price. To low ball you must initiate the negotiation at a very low place.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10498534#post10498534
But if you insist on your very strangely strict definition of lowballing. He also flat out said he regularly offers less than the value of it. That's lowballing it.
I believe you are taking a connotative view of low balling. If I am selling something and I am asking $20 for it and someone gives me $20 for it, it really does not matter what the true value is. No one was low balled. If I have something for sale but have not put a price to it and it is worth $20 and someone offers me $1, then I have been low balled. It is pretty straight forward.
To further defend the guy you seem to want to call out for low balling, he claims that he gets his deals at flea markets and garage sales. These are places where you don't expect to get market value as a seller, frankly there is rarely anything of real value there - besides beauty being in the eye of the beholder. So at that point people are clearly trying to rid themselves of an item in a manner that suggests that they are willing to take a discount, often a steep discount, and no one is forcing them to sell. While that may be a 'low ball' offer, it fits within the parameters of the venue and is to be expected by the sellers and buyers both.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10498534#post10498534
2) Sharking people can indeed scar them for life. I was talking to a kid who opened a thoughtseize at Theros draft and said it was garbage. I said it was not and asked him if he wanted anything for it. I told him it was worth about $15 (which it was, at the time). He stated, "No, you're going to rip me off." After I told him the value and a couple of his friends vouched for the price I quoted, he still would not trade. So some people are beyond helping either way.
3) You want more people at your LGS, not less. If the store does better, it can run better events and maybe giveaway more prizes, etc. Sharking people is not a good way to attract new players. People get bit and don't come back, not just to the store but Magic in general. Not good for the community any way you slice it.
-.- Still feel bad. He was like 15, so 10 bucks was probably a lot.
Example is after Innistrad came out a guy had 4 Liliana's I wanted them and he didn't care how much they were worth, I got a full playset from him for ~20 dollars of value and he was as happy as a clam. How can I deny him that, I vehemently told him that hes getting ripped off BADLY and he didn't care.
Now on the flip side of this I would never misrepresent anything and try to scam people off cards they didn't know about because that's just scummy and I hate players that do garbage like that.