So, while I don't wish to drawl on for too long with the story, it basically goes, went to a friends house last night, his neighbor plays MTG. He is a strictly casual player, and hates Tournaments. All that aside(and his ranting) I had a few cards he wanted, and he had a few cards I wanted. When I trade with other magic players, I normally don't care all that much about value if we're at least close to the same amount, I'll just do the trade. Part of his schtick as a casual was that he hated Planeswalkers, and he sat there with two Liliana of the Veil, now, he knew they were valuable but he didn't know about places like tcgplayer or scg for price checks. I pulled them out, and said that he could have pretty much whatever he wanted from my binder..... he ended up pulling out 4 Utvara Hellkite, 4 Hellkite Tyrant, 4 Scourge of Valkas, 2 Ember Swallower, 4 Hypersonic Dragon, 4 Chromatic Lantern, and 2 Thundermaw Hellkite. Afterwards he said because he had grabbed so many cards, that I could take another card if I wanted to. Now obviously he had no idea how much Liliana was worth, I couldn't just take advantage like that, and I ended up giving up all those cards for one Liliana, I showed him the price of Liliana, and explained to him why I did what I did, and of course he was very grateful(I think he also now wants to sell the other Liliana).
In my shoes, what would you have done? Taken advantage of the casual who doesn't know, or really care about prices? Or what I did?
I always make sure that value is clear. I traded a bunch of Standard stuff for an Elspeth Friday and the guy had no clue about its value. He ended up very happy and I'd rather make someone happy the honest way than by lying. I have run into people who didn't care even after value has been determined of course and its always a pleasure to trade with them.
A lot of people don't like it when you put a dollar value on cards, but it makes trading fair and easy. Whatever price increases the card experiences after that is your gain, but it is wrong to intentionally trade less immediate value for more immediate value, unless the parties involved are aware of the values of the card(s) and accept the difference between sides.
It's important to be careful with casual players...as their attachment to the game is largely emotional, and the feeling of being ripped off could cause a disconnect between them and the game.
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Decks:
Legacy: RWBG Goblins RRR Burn WBU Affinity UBR Sac-Land Tendrils! BBBPox
Next possible deck: D&T, but that just wouldn't be right.
Modern: R Goblins (work in progress)
Standard: I only care about standard when Goblins is a deck.
Limited: I only care about limited when Goblins are in the set.
When trading honesty is key imho. I always make sure each person involved knows what their cards are worth, especially for higher value items, and try my best to make the trades as even and fair as possible. Last thing you want to do is trade with the person, and then have them look up the cards later and realize they got the short end of the stick with a trade and sour them towards trading (or dealing with you at all) in general. Now that you've done that, you'll be more likely to be able to make further deals with him in the future for cards you may want/need for cards you may not care as much about. And if that person talks to his friends, then you may find yourself with an even greater trade network with people who now have heard that you are an honest trader. You did good for sure :).
You did the best of both worlds, you both got cards you wanted and he got value (true value I suppose) out of selling his second liliana. I would have offered to buy it cash for a few bones less just for conveniences sake.
Your a nice guy. I like to think I generally am to, but I'll be honest when trading with casuals, if they dont care about or know the value of their cards, I am not going to try to change that. If they ask if I know the value of the cards, I would never lie or deceive them about the value. But if someone offers me a liliana of the veil for my stupid standard dragon, I will not say no.
I've been in the casual's shoes before. I remember trading the orim's chant I pulled in my first pack (a 15$ card at the time) for a black knight and an endless wurm and was happy about it. I got cards I wanted for a card I wasnt going to use (or sell). It was fine by me at the time. The value was irrelevant.
Your a nice guy. I like to think I generally am to, but I'll be honest when trading with casuals, if they dont care about or know the value of their cards, I am not going to try to change that. If they ask if I know the value of the cards, I would never lie or deceive them about the value. But if someone offers me a liliana of the veil for my stupid standard dragon, I will not say no.
I've been in the casual's shoes before. I remember trading the orim's chant I pulled in my first pack (a 15$ card at the time) for a black knight and an endless wurm and was happy about it. I got cards I wanted for a card I wasnt going to use (or sell). It was fine by me at the time. The value was irrelevant.
I had this thought too, and that's why even though he was still well below the value of the first Liliana he was okay with the trade because he got a ton of cards he wanted. Part of the reason I did that is because much like you, and I'm sure everyone else here, I was ripped off when I was a kid. Also, had it been something closer to the $20 range, where it'd be easy to get to that $20 through bulk rares, I might not have raised the issue.
I had this thought too, and that's why even though he was still well below the value of the first Liliana he was okay with the trade because he got a ton of cards he wanted. Part of the reason I did that is because much like you, and I'm sure everyone else here, I was ripped off when I was a kid. Also, had it been something closer to the $20 range, where it'd be easy to get to that $20 through bulk rares, I might not have raised the issue.
The monetary value of cards does not matter to some players, at all. To them magic is not about collecting the most cards, or getting the best cards (where trading for equal value would matter if spending money was a constraint), but all that matters is having a fun social experience through magic. By trading unequal value with casual players who do not care about value, you are not ripping them off. They are happy with the deals they are getting.
What would be ripping them off, is if the casual player is uninformed of value, but does care about value, and asks you about the price and you lie.
I have no problem with trading, say, a vampire nocturnus for a liliana of the veil. If they don't know the value of their cards, then they deserve to be "taken advantage of".
It's like saying to someone buying a candy bar, "hey, you can get that same candy bar for 50 cents less". The store would be pissed, and rightfully so.
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If that's your "casual," what on earth is required for "formal," a butler in livery shuffling the decks whilst a pianist plays Brahms in front of a tapestry?
I think if you tell someone the prices and they're okay with the imbalance then there's no problem (speaking as someone who traded my shiny Venser for a friend's non-shiny Venser because I hate the way foils bend).
So yeah, taking the second Lili would have been fine if he'd accepted after the price check, but making sure not to shark newbies is a key part of moral trading.
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So, while I don't wish to drawl on for too long with the story, it basically goes, went to a friends house last night, his neighbor plays MTG. He is a strictly casual player, and hates Tournaments. All that aside(and his ranting) I had a few cards he wanted, and he had a few cards I wanted. When I trade with other magic players, I normally don't care all that much about value if we're at least close to the same amount, I'll just do the trade. Part of his schtick as a casual was that he hated Planeswalkers, and he sat there with two Liliana of the Veil, now, he knew they were valuable but he didn't know about places like tcgplayer or scg for price checks. I pulled them out, and said that he could have pretty much whatever he wanted from my binder..... he ended up pulling out 4 Utvara Hellkite, 4 Hellkite Tyrant, 4 Scourge of Valkas, 2 Ember Swallower, 4 Hypersonic Dragon, 4 Chromatic Lantern, and 2 Thundermaw Hellkite. Afterwards he said because he had grabbed so many cards, that I could take another card if I wanted to. Now obviously he had no idea how much Liliana was worth, I couldn't just take advantage like that, and I ended up giving up all those cards for one Liliana, I showed him the price of Liliana, and explained to him why I did what I did, and of course he was very grateful(I think he also now wants to sell the other Liliana).
In my shoes, what would you have done? Taken advantage of the casual who doesn't know, or really care about prices? Or what I did?
I would've done what you did. I would've been sitting there thinking, "Geeeez, I could bend this dude over sooo bad." But I don't think I could ever actually take advantage of someone like that. Besides, the fact that he genuinely appreciated you explaining cards' relative value is far more rewarding than whatever value you could've gotten out of him would've been.
The monetary value of cards does not matter to some players, at all.
But don't assume. Tell them because you are the one with the information and being upfront and transparent is simply the right way to treat people. Once they have the information then you can both move ahead with the deal.
But don't assume. Tell them because you are the one with the information and being upfront and transparent is simply the right way to treat people. Once they have the information then you can both move ahead with the deal.
If someone cares about the monatary value of a card then they would already know it or at least look it up before trading.
There are dozens of variables that go into how much a card is worth and honestly as long as both people are happy about the trade then nobody is getting ripped off.
If someone cares about the monatary value of a card then they would already know it or at least look it up before trading.
There are dozens of variables that go into how much a card is worth and honestly as long as both people are happy about the trade then nobody is getting ripped off.
I can't buy that. What's the motivation for NOT just casually saying, "You know that card's worth $X and these cards you want are only worth like $X-25, right?" Hopes that you will get away with more value than if you told them is the only thing that I can think of, and that just seems... wrong.
I always make sure both sides know what the value of the cards are. If they are still ok with the disparity, then we go ahead.
Not only is it considered good practice, but it helps my reputation as well to be seen as a fair trader. People who know your good reputation may be more willing to be flexible when trading with you later. If you're seen as a shark, other players will give you no quarter when trading.
If someone cares about the monatary value of a card then they would already know it or at least look it up before trading.
There are dozens of variables that go into how much a card is worth and honestly as long as both people are happy about the trade then nobody is getting ripped off.
Can't think of any reason not to tell them though. What harm is there in letting them know what the price of a card is - even if it's not 100% accurate?
But don't assume. Tell them because you are the one with the information and being upfront and transparent is simply the right way to treat people. Once they have the information then you can both move ahead with the deal.
What happens if you see a card at a card shop that you want, and it has a price tag far lower than a recent jump in price? Is this different?
Personally I attempt to keep up with card prices and go by my gut, because I don't have internet on my phone. It's imperfect to say the least, but most people with phones nearby will look it up. If someone rips me off, am I supposed to be angry?
I prefer to trade based on value or at least make sure they're okay with not getting the full value out of a trade.
I've had some people just rather get a card that they wanted off me than trade something for what it's worth though.
I just like to make sure people are okay with that
I have found myself in that situation a couple of times. I always make sure that they know exactly what the cards are worth, because it's my reputation at stake. Some people are fine with being known as the guy that rips off the kids or the guy returning after 10 years, but I'm not so okay with that. Things get complicated when, as mentioned before, the person really doesn't care about value. On two different occasions I had to basically force people to take more to get the deal be not a total ripoff.
I really respect that you made the honorable decision.
Well done. Your neighbor will always appreciate what you did, and it's fair to say you can expect good karma as a result of your action.
Anyhow, the best I can come up with myself is a game in the top 8 of a PTQ back during Urza block in which we were starting game 3 with time already expired, so the tiebreaker rule was that whoever had more life after 3 turns would win. And I lost to... healing salve.
You definitely made the right call. I was on the other end of$0.50 card. When I got home and looked up the values (wasn't able to at the store) I was quite peeved. In the end it really bit him in the ass because now myself and a few others refuse to trade with him as a result of his predatory trading. I've seen him visibly frustrated by this more than once.
I let people (instead of secondary market websites) put the value on their cards. I paid $20 for an 8th Edition foil Serra Angel cause it's my favorite art and that card non-foil was the first single I bought when I started playing at a LGS. I don't care if SCG says it's worth half that.
I traded a playset of Boros Reckoner at it's highest point for about $80 on cards for my EDH decks. I didn't care that according to SCG numbers I gave away a free bull, I got cards I was going to play for cards I wasn't.
I got a Toxic Deluge for an Azusa, Lost but Seeking because the guy wanted her for his girlfriend's EDH, he refused to pick anything else from my binder cause I didn't have any other green EDH goodies.
My LGS has been selling me FNM Tectonic Edge for $4 despite SCG pricing it at $8, because **** it, nobody's buying it at $8 and losing real money because you didn't get the virtual money a store that doesn't give a **** about your sales says you could've got is ridiculous.
Being sincere is a must. But there's no reason to live by the value set by a third party that may actually be completely alien to our gaming experience. I'm looking for 3 Liliana of the Veil for my 8Rack deck and offering up to $65 in cards or cards/cash. When I get them I'll be happy because I got what I wanted, even if I had to "lose" $45 to do so.
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Yes sir, I take fantasy art and character design commissions, PM me for rates.
I think you did it the right way, and that's the way I do it too at this point. As long as you are completely honest about the values involved I am fine with something like that, assuming you are trading with an adult. Trading with younger players, say ~10 or younger, I think people should be super careful to make the trade balanced in terms of $ value.
But I wasn't always that way. I was sharked as a kid. Then in HS/College I was the shark. Now as an adult I try and just make trades as fair as possible.
I try to make trades as even as possible, as long as it isn't nickel and dimeing. I want a good rep so more people will want to trade or do business with me. I also don't want to shark people and cause them to quit playing the game, because having more players is never a bad thing.
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I do it with CashCrate and Swagbucks. Get paid to complete surveys, offers, and other online tasks. Refer friends and family to get even more money. It may not be a lot, but it adds up while messing around on the computer. If you have any questions, feel free to message me and I'll help the best I can.
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In my shoes, what would you have done? Taken advantage of the casual who doesn't know, or really care about prices? Or what I did?
A lot of people don't like it when you put a dollar value on cards, but it makes trading fair and easy. Whatever price increases the card experiences after that is your gain, but it is wrong to intentionally trade less immediate value for more immediate value, unless the parties involved are aware of the values of the card(s) and accept the difference between sides.
It's important to be careful with casual players...as their attachment to the game is largely emotional, and the feeling of being ripped off could cause a disconnect between them and the game.
Legacy:
RWBG Goblins
RRR Burn
WBU Affinity
UBR Sac-Land Tendrils!
BBBPox
Next possible deck: D&T, but that just wouldn't be right.
Modern: R Goblins (work in progress)
Standard: I only care about standard when Goblins is a deck.
Limited: I only care about limited when Goblins are in the set.
Pauper:
RGoblins
URCloudpost
other decks
Goblins.
I've been in the casual's shoes before. I remember trading the orim's chant I pulled in my first pack (a 15$ card at the time) for a black knight and an endless wurm and was happy about it. I got cards I wanted for a card I wasnt going to use (or sell). It was fine by me at the time. The value was irrelevant.
I had this thought too, and that's why even though he was still well below the value of the first Liliana he was okay with the trade because he got a ton of cards he wanted. Part of the reason I did that is because much like you, and I'm sure everyone else here, I was ripped off when I was a kid. Also, had it been something closer to the $20 range, where it'd be easy to get to that $20 through bulk rares, I might not have raised the issue.
The monetary value of cards does not matter to some players, at all. To them magic is not about collecting the most cards, or getting the best cards (where trading for equal value would matter if spending money was a constraint), but all that matters is having a fun social experience through magic. By trading unequal value with casual players who do not care about value, you are not ripping them off. They are happy with the deals they are getting.
What would be ripping them off, is if the casual player is uninformed of value, but does care about value, and asks you about the price and you lie.
It's like saying to someone buying a candy bar, "hey, you can get that same candy bar for 50 cents less". The store would be pissed, and rightfully so.
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Mythic rares are fine.
I think if you tell someone the prices and they're okay with the imbalance then there's no problem (speaking as someone who traded my shiny Venser for a friend's non-shiny Venser because I hate the way foils bend).
So yeah, taking the second Lili would have been fine if he'd accepted after the price check, but making sure not to shark newbies is a key part of moral trading.
Art is life itself.
I would've done what you did. I would've been sitting there thinking, "Geeeez, I could bend this dude over sooo bad." But I don't think I could ever actually take advantage of someone like that. Besides, the fact that he genuinely appreciated you explaining cards' relative value is far more rewarding than whatever value you could've gotten out of him would've been.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
How To Keep Your FOIL Cards From Curling: http://youtu.be/QTmubrS8VnI
The Best Deck Boxes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEwgLph_Pjk
The Best Binders: http://youtu.be/H5IauASYWjk
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
If someone cares about the monatary value of a card then they would already know it or at least look it up before trading.
There are dozens of variables that go into how much a card is worth and honestly as long as both people are happy about the trade then nobody is getting ripped off.
I can't buy that. What's the motivation for NOT just casually saying, "You know that card's worth $X and these cards you want are only worth like $X-25, right?" Hopes that you will get away with more value than if you told them is the only thing that I can think of, and that just seems... wrong.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
Not only is it considered good practice, but it helps my reputation as well to be seen as a fair trader. People who know your good reputation may be more willing to be flexible when trading with you later. If you're seen as a shark, other players will give you no quarter when trading.
Can't think of any reason not to tell them though. What harm is there in letting them know what the price of a card is - even if it's not 100% accurate?
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
What happens if you see a card at a card shop that you want, and it has a price tag far lower than a recent jump in price? Is this different?
Personally I attempt to keep up with card prices and go by my gut, because I don't have internet on my phone. It's imperfect to say the least, but most people with phones nearby will look it up. If someone rips me off, am I supposed to be angry?
I've had some people just rather get a card that they wanted off me than trade something for what it's worth though.
I just like to make sure people are okay with that
Well done. Your neighbor will always appreciate what you did, and it's fair to say you can expect good karma as a result of your action.
I traded a playset of Boros Reckoner at it's highest point for about $80 on cards for my EDH decks. I didn't care that according to SCG numbers I gave away a free bull, I got cards I was going to play for cards I wasn't.
I got a Toxic Deluge for an Azusa, Lost but Seeking because the guy wanted her for his girlfriend's EDH, he refused to pick anything else from my binder cause I didn't have any other green EDH goodies.
My LGS has been selling me FNM Tectonic Edge for $4 despite SCG pricing it at $8, because **** it, nobody's buying it at $8 and losing real money because you didn't get the virtual money a store that doesn't give a **** about your sales says you could've got is ridiculous.
Being sincere is a must. But there's no reason to live by the value set by a third party that may actually be completely alien to our gaming experience. I'm looking for 3 Liliana of the Veil for my 8Rack deck and offering up to $65 in cards or cards/cash. When I get them I'll be happy because I got what I wanted, even if I had to "lose" $45 to do so.
But I wasn't always that way. I was sharked as a kid. Then in HS/College I was the shark. Now as an adult I try and just make trades as fair as possible.