I knew that before the thread was started (the "investors" being an obvious group who does not agree). The point of petitions is not to show 100% unanimous support. It's to show that one position cares more deeply and possibly in greater numbers than another.
1) As you say this isn't necessarily true just cause a PR guy said it
2) Even if it is, is an almost-identical reprint legally impossible? I know that people complained about reverberate and they said they wouldn't do it again, but is THAT sort of thing 100% legally impossible? or just a promise they can break, unlike the reserve list? If that's on the table, then it's easy to just reprint almost-reserve-cards for every one and call it a day.
3) If not even THAT, then it would still help to reprint other non-reserve list cards much more aggressively, and/or other steps in the right direction.
You can't print functional reprints because then you could run 8 copies LOLLOLOLOLOL
I just thought I'd add something a little more productive for the last of the Reserved List talk.
If you really want to know whether your idea would float with Wizards, got to Maro's Blogatog thing that I'm sure everyone knows about, dress up your profile with magic themes, and ask him if they are possible in the current direction that Magic is going.
He might answer your question or he might not. If he doesn't, the answer is probably no, but don't blame him, he's below like hundreds of people where he works. I'm pretty sure Maro gets harassed all the time with these types of player comments on his Tumblr. You can see it in the comments section whenever the reserved list is a topic.
Eternal formats are a luxury to retain old players. Type 2 was created because they couldn't sell cards is Black Lotus was the standard forever. The life cycle of standard is the primary reason they are in business. Eternal formats are secondary. It's important to have meet demand at a certain level that they do not overlap into mainstream magic too much.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Decks:
Legacy: RWBG Goblins RRR Burn WBU Affinity UBR Sac-Land Tendrils! BBBPox
Next possible deck: D&T, but that just wouldn't be right.
Modern: R Goblins (work in progress)
Standard: I only care about standard when Goblins is a deck.
Limited: I only care about limited when Goblins are in the set.
In that case ali baba and the forty chinese thieves would have my support
Its simple. They have the option to care. If they do not care then start the printing presses.
This, I won't knowingly purchase piracy, it gives me cancer. But I will not refuse to play with someone who has 4x bootleg Tundras, not even at a tournament, because someone has to care for legacy even if WotC does not.
If the Resserved List is unbreakable, the counterfeiters won this battle way before it even started.
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Yes sir, I take fantasy art and character design commissions, PM me for rates.
Not just for nostalgia, though... They are also just inherently more fun to some players like me who were not even around when those were the current sets, because legacy (or any of a million casual formats that use most of the same cards) offers so many more combinations and creativity IMO than Standard or Modern do.
Which presents a legitimate threat: even if WOTC wishes they could ignore legacy and move on, they can't, because if/when legacy cards become cheap (due to, for example, piracy...), a bunch of players who find it interesting might go over to legacy with their plausible deniability in tow and stop buying standard sets...
Making eternal formats not so secondary of a concern anymore if so.
That's the basic gist of the whole "petition"-y situation here. You CAN'T just not talk about legacy or about the reserve list. It's potentially super fun and alluring (there are as many legacy tournaments where I am than casual, DESPITE the cost. Imagine what it would be if legacy staples were $5!), and WOTC may want to reconsider proactive action on that front in light of these developments.
If they still refuse to/absolutely can't do anything anyway, well then that's that. Let the Arabian nights begin, I suppose, and we shall see if anything comes of it or not. But I'm not convinced that they truly can't/won't necessarily do anything.
Its simple. They have the option to care. If they do not care then start the printing presses.
I did not mean to imply that they don't care, just that they can't do it. MaRo and Forsyth have both publicly stated that they wish they could do something about it. I suppose you could argue that someone up the chain of command doesn't care, though I would not make that assumption. Would you be willing to take part in an action that leads to the end of the game just because someone at Hasbro (not even WotC) doesn't care? I wouldn't. There are a lot of ways for me to enjoy this game without ever having to own an ABUR dual land for the next ten years, as evidenced by the past ten years. I firmly believe in a creator's right to control the distribution of their new original work, and my personal ethics do not allow me to ignore that just so I can get cheaper game pieces.
1) As you say this isn't necessarily true just cause a PR guy said it
You are misrepresenting what I said. I said that some people are not going to believe WotC no matter what, but they have said that they cannot legally do anything about the reserved list. All humans have the capability to lie, so it is theoretically possible that it is a lie, but I would not jump to that conclusion. Considering the fact that no other source has ever provided any information on this it is reasonable to believe that there is some legal basis to the issue. I will hold the slightest sliver of a doubt just because we do not have the whole picture, but that will never be public.
Lastly, this is not the reserved list thread. I think if we have come to the end of conversation on that actual counterfeit cards and where they might be ending up via ebay, then perhaps the conversation should move to the appropriate thread(s).
Every argument from the pro counterfeiting camp has just been attempts to justify something that is completely unethical
"Wizards did this and starcity did that so we totally have the right to ruin magic". Wizards not overturning the reserved list does not somehow make subverting international law suddenly alright.
Every argument from the pro counterfeiting camp has just been attempts to justify something that is completely unethical
"Wizards did this and starcity did that so we totally have the right to ruin magic". Wizards not overturning the reserved list does not somehow make subverting international law suddenly alright.
I disagreed with this 'troll' of a statement.
As much as I have read from this thread, my believes are these are players who are serious and passionate about Mtg. Either as investors or players, they have conflicting views regarding certain Wotc policies.
They are not 'terrorist cells' out to use counterfeits to crush Mtg.
Do not call others "trolls". Infraction issued. -Xen
Yes. The more realistic and much less dramatic version of those events would be preferable to me over not being able to afford most of the things I want to play.
However, again, as I am being careful to point out, the best solution of all is for none of those things to happen, and to still be able to afford what I want to play at the same time, which results from WOTC simply reprinting things.
But yes, I would prefer being able to play 10x more deck varieties more so than caring about pro tours and FNMs I don't attend, or about the "evolution" of eternal formats at a rate or 2-3 cards a year at best, etc.
It might not be the best long long term, but by the time it's not better, I'll probably be bored of Magic either way.
And yes this jblaze has been trolling and singling out people (mostly me and crimeo lately) and flaming our posts. Seems like he made a dummy account just to post in this thread without fear of repercussion
Would you be willing to take part in an action that leads to the end of the game just because someone at Hasbro (not even WotC) doesn't care?
I'm pretty sure allowing players to use proxies at a thursday night Legacy tournament is not going to kill Magic.
It's not even going to kill SCG, even though they desserve it because it is their rampanth greed what makes it so that their legacy staples are less liquid than other retailers' and players', because they make much more money on the thousands of effectively liquid standard singles they sell every day than on the $200 Underground Sea they may sell once on a blue moon.
Again, I'm not buying, but I'm not gonna be mad at anyone who buys and plays with them.
And I'm not gonna keep an eye up for them or decry people who have them either, even if they're moving them. Dealers don't give a **** about me and openly tell me to **** off "their game" because I don't have enough money? I don't give a **** about dealers getting sharked, it's just fair for the predator to feel the same grief he causes once in a while. My LGS doesn't need sharks or Starcity to survive, neither does WotC really, I'm pretty sure they get more money from Wal Mart than from either online retailer so I find it really hard to believe hard to import eternal proxies are gonna kill the game.
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Yes sir, I take fantasy art and character design commissions, PM me for rates.
@t3kn33k: Due to my laziness, I will choose to ignore provocative statements. I find it more productive than to waste efforts/emotions fighting.
@skeelo and like-minded players: You are assuming Wotc will not do anything to protect its copyright rights. Example: http://web.archive.org/web/20120801184713/http://ww2.wizards.com/Company/Press/?doc=20090406
Wotc is a company answerable to Hasbro. I am certain they must fulfill profitable requirements. I am almost certain there is nothing the playerbase in MTGS can do to influence Wotc management decisions as well.
Worry more for yourself, your cards and your LGS! The worst case scenario is the end of Mtg? Well, good things never last forever.
@Stroggoii: Reading about your reactions towards SCG, I am almost tempted to setup a poll regarding how well-liked SCG is with the MTGS community. I dislike SCG cos I only experienced bad customer service with them.
Every argument from the pro counterfeiting camp has just been attempts to justify something that is completely unethical
"Wizards did this and starcity did that so we totally have the right to ruin magic". Wizards not overturning the reserved list does not somehow make subverting international law suddenly alright.
I agree with this statement.
Alot of arguments are boil down to: "Do it Wizards or I start buying counterfeits." A threat to the company.
Here's an idea. How about you don't play the format if you can't buy into it. Legacy is very healthy even without an influx of new players.
Alot of arguments are boil down to: "Do it Wizards or I start buying counterfeits." A threat to the company.
Here's an idea. How about you don't play the format if you can't buy into it. Legacy is very healthy even without an influx of new players.
Let's boil down the options that players have: 1 - Pay the money for the cards on the secondary market.
-The number of consumers that can do this and remain fiscally responsible are few. 2 - Print/make proxies
-Can't play in sanctioned events, but if they can't afford the deck in the first place, that's a non-issue. Quality is likely not up to par compared to the real thing. 3 - Buy counterfeits/proxies from others
-Cheaper (if bought as counterfeits/proxies). Quality may vary. As of right now, the supply of these cheaper cards is limited. 4 - Quit playing the game
-A legitimate option, and one that many speculators and portions of the secondary market often offer to the disgruntled fan/customer.
If I were to list those in order of the most appealing to the customer, I would list them as: 1 - Buy counterfeits/proxies for the fraction of the price of the real thing. Get the same enjoyment out of the game, and attendance at sanctioned events is a non-issue. 2 - Print proxies themselves. Also relatively cheap (ink does get expensive, as well as sleeves), but it's still cheaper than the real thing. Requires a little more work, and quality probably isn't the same as buying counterfeits. 3 - Pay the prices of the secondary market. Consumers may not even consider fiscal responsibility and pay the prices, to the detriment of their own future and, consequently, the future of the product they are consumers of. If they do retain fiscal responsibility, then the rate at which the purchases are made will likely slow to a crawl. Or, the consumers may give up on the higher priced cards and accept that they are forced to play in formats they may not care for (like Pauper) or with substandard decks. That will effect the meta that they choose to play in - No point in playing with any of the consumers that chose any of the other options, as they are unlikely to be competitive. This restricts their preferred playgroup. 4 - Quit the game. Buying counterfeits and printing proxies are likely to happen first, as the enjoyment is still there for a fraction of the cost. Essentially, the hobby just got a lot cheaper with those two options, so there is no reason to quit the game until the mechanics of the game itself becomes a persuasive force.
When I condemn the actions that are leading to the bubble, and I warn about possible repercussions, I don't state them as a threat. You're probably right, some of these comments have boiled down to that. But how does that relate to the list of the options above, and the future of the game?
What we have to realize is that this is a real-world issue. This isn't just a black-and-white, pay the prices or quit/play Pauper. These are pieces of manufactured cardboard that we are talking about, and WotC/Hasbro doesn't have a monopoly on it as long as someone has a printer, ink, the pictures of the cards, and time.
Considering Xenphire just asked you all to knock it off and the bickering has continued I am just closing this for now. Relevant posts have been reported and will be handled by the local staff. If they feel it's worth opening back up they will.
You can't print functional reprints because then you could run 8 copies LOLLOLOLOLOL
Mimeoplasm, reanimator
Phelddagrif, superfriend/hugs
Edric, counter-target-player
Child of alara, Gods/Lands-Control
Titania, Timmy-combo
-Tiny Leaders-
Geist <under construction>
-Standard-
Esper Control
Sorry, I forgot (again) the important part there:
1) Make functional almost-exact-copies of everything.
2) Ban all the originals. Reserve list doesn't say anything about not banning them.
"Introducing: Aboveground sea! Swamp Island, with ability T: scry 1. ... In completely unrelated other news, Underground sea is now banned"
This guy clearly did not find my attempt at humor funny Moderator pls
Troll infraction issued. -Xen
If you really want to know whether your idea would float with Wizards, got to Maro's Blogatog thing that I'm sure everyone knows about, dress up your profile with magic themes, and ask him if they are possible in the current direction that Magic is going.
He might answer your question or he might not. If he doesn't, the answer is probably no, but don't blame him, he's below like hundreds of people where he works. I'm pretty sure Maro gets harassed all the time with these types of player comments on his Tumblr. You can see it in the comments section whenever the reserved list is a topic.
Eternal formats are a luxury to retain old players. Type 2 was created because they couldn't sell cards is Black Lotus was the standard forever. The life cycle of standard is the primary reason they are in business. Eternal formats are secondary. It's important to have meet demand at a certain level that they do not overlap into mainstream magic too much.
Legacy:
RWBG Goblins
RRR Burn
WBU Affinity
UBR Sac-Land Tendrils!
BBBPox
Next possible deck: D&T, but that just wouldn't be right.
Modern: R Goblins (work in progress)
Standard: I only care about standard when Goblins is a deck.
Limited: I only care about limited when Goblins are in the set.
Pauper:
RGoblins
URCloudpost
other decks
Goblins.
This, I won't knowingly purchase piracy, it gives me cancer. But I will not refuse to play with someone who has 4x bootleg Tundras, not even at a tournament, because someone has to care for legacy even if WotC does not.
If the Resserved List is unbreakable, the counterfeiters won this battle way before it even started.
After all the Economy 101, Reserved List 101, Business 101, Copyright 101 and Doomday 101, I cant comprehend what is this thread all about now.
Anyway, I hope the counterfeits are perfect copies. I dont wish to spend that much effort to ensure every card i buy is an authentic.
Spam infraction issued. -Xen
Not just for nostalgia, though... They are also just inherently more fun to some players like me who were not even around when those were the current sets, because legacy (or any of a million casual formats that use most of the same cards) offers so many more combinations and creativity IMO than Standard or Modern do.
Which presents a legitimate threat: even if WOTC wishes they could ignore legacy and move on, they can't, because if/when legacy cards become cheap (due to, for example, piracy...), a bunch of players who find it interesting might go over to legacy with their plausible deniability in tow and stop buying standard sets...
Making eternal formats not so secondary of a concern anymore if so.
That's the basic gist of the whole "petition"-y situation here. You CAN'T just not talk about legacy or about the reserve list. It's potentially super fun and alluring (there are as many legacy tournaments where I am than casual, DESPITE the cost. Imagine what it would be if legacy staples were $5!), and WOTC may want to reconsider proactive action on that front in light of these developments.
If they still refuse to/absolutely can't do anything anyway, well then that's that. Let the Arabian nights begin, I suppose, and we shall see if anything comes of it or not. But I'm not convinced that they truly can't/won't necessarily do anything.
You are misrepresenting what I said. I said that some people are not going to believe WotC no matter what, but they have said that they cannot legally do anything about the reserved list. All humans have the capability to lie, so it is theoretically possible that it is a lie, but I would not jump to that conclusion. Considering the fact that no other source has ever provided any information on this it is reasonable to believe that there is some legal basis to the issue. I will hold the slightest sliver of a doubt just because we do not have the whole picture, but that will never be public.
Lastly, this is not the reserved list thread. I think if we have come to the end of conversation on that actual counterfeit cards and where they might be ending up via ebay, then perhaps the conversation should move to the appropriate thread(s).
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
"Wizards did this and starcity did that so we totally have the right to ruin magic". Wizards not overturning the reserved list does not somehow make subverting international law suddenly alright.
I disagreed with this 'troll' of a statement.
As much as I have read from this thread, my believes are these are players who are serious and passionate about Mtg. Either as investors or players, they have conflicting views regarding certain Wotc policies.
They are not 'terrorist cells' out to use counterfeits to crush Mtg.
Do not call others "trolls". Infraction issued. -Xen
yep guy totally care's about Magic
And yes this jblaze has been trolling and singling out people (mostly me and crimeo lately) and flaming our posts. Seems like he made a dummy account just to post in this thread without fear of repercussion
Mimeoplasm, reanimator
Phelddagrif, superfriend/hugs
Edric, counter-target-player
Child of alara, Gods/Lands-Control
Titania, Timmy-combo
-Tiny Leaders-
Geist <under construction>
-Standard-
Esper Control
I'm pretty sure allowing players to use proxies at a thursday night Legacy tournament is not going to kill Magic.
It's not even going to kill SCG, even though they desserve it because it is their rampanth greed what makes it so that their legacy staples are less liquid than other retailers' and players', because they make much more money on the thousands of effectively liquid standard singles they sell every day than on the $200 Underground Sea they may sell once on a blue moon.
Again, I'm not buying, but I'm not gonna be mad at anyone who buys and plays with them.
And I'm not gonna keep an eye up for them or decry people who have them either, even if they're moving them. Dealers don't give a **** about me and openly tell me to **** off "their game" because I don't have enough money? I don't give a **** about dealers getting sharked, it's just fair for the predator to feel the same grief he causes once in a while. My LGS doesn't need sharks or Starcity to survive, neither does WotC really, I'm pretty sure they get more money from Wal Mart than from either online retailer so I find it really hard to believe hard to import eternal proxies are gonna kill the game.
@skeelo and like-minded players: You are assuming Wotc will not do anything to protect its copyright rights. Example: http://web.archive.org/web/20120801184713/http://ww2.wizards.com/Company/Press/?doc=20090406
Wotc is a company answerable to Hasbro. I am certain they must fulfill profitable requirements. I am almost certain there is nothing the playerbase in MTGS can do to influence Wotc management decisions as well.
End of Wotc? No, cos they print currency now: http://www.examiner.com/article/wizards-of-the-coast-announces-official-magic-the-gathering-currency
Causal reading (Wotc annual report 2012): http://issuu.com/joelferguson2/docs/annualreportweb
End of Hasbro? No! Their net revenue 2012 is 4 BILLIONS! If you earn 10 millions (benefit of the doubt here) in your lifetime, you need 400 lifetimes to earn what they earn in 2012.
Causal reading (Hasbro annual report 2012): http://files.shareholder.com/downloads/HAS/2890705595x0x651965/88EAC1D3-30CD-48EB-A0A5-8A6099817717/2012ar.pdf
Worry more for yourself, your cards and your LGS! The worst case scenario is the end of Mtg? Well, good things never last forever.
@Stroggoii: Reading about your reactions towards SCG, I am almost tempted to setup a poll regarding how well-liked SCG is with the MTGS community. I dislike SCG cos I only experienced bad customer service with them.
I agree with this statement.
Alot of arguments are boil down to: "Do it Wizards or I start buying counterfeits." A threat to the company.
Here's an idea. How about you don't play the format if you can't buy into it. Legacy is very healthy even without an influx of new players.
Let's boil down the options that players have:
1 - Pay the money for the cards on the secondary market.
-The number of consumers that can do this and remain fiscally responsible are few.
2 - Print/make proxies
-Can't play in sanctioned events, but if they can't afford the deck in the first place, that's a non-issue. Quality is likely not up to par compared to the real thing.
3 - Buy counterfeits/proxies from others
-Cheaper (if bought as counterfeits/proxies). Quality may vary. As of right now, the supply of these cheaper cards is limited.
4 - Quit playing the game
-A legitimate option, and one that many speculators and portions of the secondary market often offer to the disgruntled fan/customer.
If I were to list those in order of the most appealing to the customer, I would list them as:
1 - Buy counterfeits/proxies for the fraction of the price of the real thing. Get the same enjoyment out of the game, and attendance at sanctioned events is a non-issue.
2 - Print proxies themselves. Also relatively cheap (ink does get expensive, as well as sleeves), but it's still cheaper than the real thing. Requires a little more work, and quality probably isn't the same as buying counterfeits.
3 - Pay the prices of the secondary market. Consumers may not even consider fiscal responsibility and pay the prices, to the detriment of their own future and, consequently, the future of the product they are consumers of. If they do retain fiscal responsibility, then the rate at which the purchases are made will likely slow to a crawl. Or, the consumers may give up on the higher priced cards and accept that they are forced to play in formats they may not care for (like Pauper) or with substandard decks. That will effect the meta that they choose to play in - No point in playing with any of the consumers that chose any of the other options, as they are unlikely to be competitive. This restricts their preferred playgroup.
4 - Quit the game. Buying counterfeits and printing proxies are likely to happen first, as the enjoyment is still there for a fraction of the cost. Essentially, the hobby just got a lot cheaper with those two options, so there is no reason to quit the game until the mechanics of the game itself becomes a persuasive force.
When I condemn the actions that are leading to the bubble, and I warn about possible repercussions, I don't state them as a threat. You're probably right, some of these comments have boiled down to that. But how does that relate to the list of the options above, and the future of the game?
What we have to realize is that this is a real-world issue. This isn't just a black-and-white, pay the prices or quit/play Pauper. These are pieces of manufactured cardboard that we are talking about, and WotC/Hasbro doesn't have a monopoly on it as long as someone has a printer, ink, the pictures of the cards, and time.
Lantern Control
(with videos)
Uc Tron
Netdecking explained
Netdecking explained, Part 2
On speculators and counterfeits
On Interaction
Every single competitive deck in existence is designed to limit the opponent's ability to interact in a meaningful way.
Record number of exclamation points on SCG homepage: 71 (6 January, 2018)
"I don't want to believe, I want to know."
-Carl Sagan
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.