Do you really think spot counterfeiting could ruin the game? Sure it may ruin Starcity's game having to lower their ridiculous prices, (when people are more willing to risk charges for forgery than pay your prices you should re-evaluate your rampanth greed) but I'm willing to bet WotC makes most of it's money from sealed product bought at big stores and LSG's, not the secondary market. And while some people may feel like quitting because their "investment" turned out to be unsafe, most people will not care about the existance of counterfeits one way or the other. The average FNM player won't deal with translating shady chinese ebay, plus international shipping, plus avoiding beng tagged for counterfeiting & conspiracy, all to save a couple bucks on standard cards.
This.
Even if fakes become more rampant, who exactly does it hurt? Seems like it wouldn't hurt WotC that directly, because it's just the secondary market. And if fakes became rampant enough (doubtful) to significantly suppress older card prices, then simple supply and demand suggests the counterfeiters will go somewhere else.
And if someone is playing with a Goyf that some Chinese counterfeiter made rather than one that WotC made, and they aren't even aware of it, well, who cares? Why fetishize cardboard produced by WotC as opposed to cardboard produced by someone else?
I'm not condoning buying counterfeit goods on purpose to save money, but if these are really that good and they start getting into various distribution channels, it's just inevitable that they will be used by people unknowingly.
Even if fakes become more rampant, who exactly does it hurt? Seems like it wouldn't hurt WotC that directly, because it's just the secondary market. And if fakes became rampant enough (doubtful) to significantly suppress older card prices, then simple supply and demand suggests the counterfeiters will go somewhere else.
And if someone is playing with a Goyf that some Chinese counterfeiter made rather than one that WotC made, and they aren't even aware of it, well, who cares? Why fetishize cardboard produced by WotC as opposed to cardboard produced by someone else?
I'm not condoning buying counterfeit goods on purpose to save money, but if these are really that good and they start getting into various distribution channels, it's just inevitable that they will be used by people unknowingly.
And, again, who cares?
I agree that we as consumers don't have much reason to care, but WOTC clearly does.
Where do you think people get cards to sell on the secondary market.....? From WOTC. To the extent that some of them might get them from China instead, those are cards WOTC is not selling to distributors anymore. It directly affects them.
Player --> another Player, WOTC doesn't care.
Supplier --> Secondary market, WOTC cares intimately.
Basically, the spacing between letters of counterfeits is very slightly off.
In the link provided, the name "Tyler Jacobson" on the fake has wider kerning that that of the original one. It's most seen on the J a c o b part of the name.
They're also using the wrong fonts. That's not Matrix Bold in the artist's name & Plantin in the text box, that's something else.
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Hey all... I'm retired, not dead. Check out what I'm doing these days (and beg me to come back if you want):
A couple of posts back, someone mentioned WotC dumping the reserve list. Likely, they won't. Instead, they'll double down on it, cut off all support to the older formats. ie. Officially, no more legacy or vintage, under the guise of "welp, no one is playing those formats anyway" or "we're focusing on the formats that players really want." Modern will be bumped up to include only sets with holofoil/anti-counterfeit measures.
I'm pretty sure a move like that would expedite the Magic Apocalypse way more than the removal of the reserve list. Consumer confidence on how WoTC manages threats would plummet.
I imagine the holofoil stamp isn't too hard to counterfeit as well for a huge printing company.
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Quote from Book of the Dead »
Does the Walker choose the Path, or the Path the Walker?
EDH/Commander
Olivia Voldaren
Sigarda, Host of Herons
Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer
Jhoira of the Ghitu
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Edric, Spymaster of Trest
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
Rosheen Meanderer
Ghost Council of Orzhova
Vela the Night-Clad
But it will affect Legacy (where cards worth >$100 reside) more than any other formats which means SCG will be affected but Wotc not so.
To affect Wotc's revenues, counterfeits need to hit Standard or the premium product range, eg. MM.
It truly depends on how the average USA FNM player wants to get their singles..
In the long run, Wotc will be affected as their 'partners'(retailers) are.
Uh, did you actually click on the link and look at the cards? Like half of the ones in the picture are in Standard. Looked like all shocklands were being included, for instance. As well as PWers. I spot an elspeth, sun's champion in the pictures.
The holostamp doesn't do much against professional outfits like these guys seem to be (although I'm not terribly impressed that they couldn't get something as simple as font correct, when the name of the font is plastered all over the internet and is off the shelf available...).
But it would stop anybody dead in their tracks who had a mind to try some shenanigans at Kinko's or whatever.
The big companies are easier to pursue in court, and the mom and pop local folks are easier to stop by adding things like holograms.
What will happen to the honest china mtg sellers is also something I wonder.
I'm just sad because I know some newbie magic player is going to go to his first GP to play some matches just to get DQ in round three from playing fake cards that he had no idea where fake.
So, will this have any major consequences? I was under the impression that counterfeits have always existed; this might have some impact in China, but outside from there, it's hard to believe.
The cards are turning up in the US. And allegedly the company/companies which print them take orders in batches of thousands. The minute they get good enough at this, we're all in trouble.
Do you really think spot counterfeiting could ruin the game? Sure it may ruin Starcity's game having to lower their ridiculous prices, (when people are more willing to risk charges for forgery than pay your prices you should re-evaluate your rampanth greed) but I'm willing to bet WotC makes most of it's money from sealed product bought at big stores and LSG's, not the secondary market. And while some people may feel like quitting because their "investment" turned out to be unsafe, most people will not care about the existance of counterfeits one way or the other. The average FNM player won't deal with translating shady chinese ebay, plus international shipping, plus avoiding beng tagged for counterfeiting & conspiracy, all to save a couple bucks on standard cards.
Take off the blinkers for a moment. This isn't about SCG having to lower prices a few bucks. It's about wholeheartedly crashing the secondary market. And, ironically, the largest vendors would probably be best position to survive, since they could build a reputation around guaranteed genuine product, while all the smaller sellers -- you know, the people you deal with on ebay, TCG, MKM, etc., who mostly don't have wide reputations and would suddenly be suspect -- would probably get squeezed out.
The consequences of this are probably not what you want, assuming you enjoy having a community of people to play Magic with.
Can't say I'm surprised, with the way Wotc has handled their product. Reserve list causing legacy prices to blow up, rarity changes making standard prices blow up, and price is just one of many things that is wrong with modern. Wotc has incentivized counterfeiters to invest by making a variety $50 and $100 bills which are probably easier to counterfeit with less repercussion for getting caught. Thinking long term if Wotc want's to keep modern/legacy/vintage legit won't this mean that they will have to print new version of the cards that are much harder to counterfit, or offer up a service now where the barcode/chip your card now to verify it's legitmacy before the counterfeits come in.
A 40 dollar mythic rare would constitute a must have 4 of that goes in many decks.
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled. I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
The cards are turning up in the US. And allegedly the company/companies which print them take orders in batches of thousands. The minute they get good enough at this, we're all in trouble.
Take off the blinkers for a moment. This isn't about SCG having to lower prices a few bucks. It's about wholeheartedly crashing the secondary market. And, ironically, the largest vendors would probably be best position to survive, since they could build a reputation around guaranteed genuine product, while all the smaller sellers -- you know, the people you deal with on ebay, TCG, MKM, etc., who mostly don't have wide reputations and would suddenly be suspect -- would probably get squeezed out.
The consequences of this are probably not what you want, assuming you enjoy having a community of people to play Magic with.
But if I can't tell the difference, and the people at my LGS can't tell the difference, why do I care about the authenticity of my cards?
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#define ALWAYS SOMETIMES
#define NEVER RARELY
#define ALL MANY
-=GIVE US SOMETHING TO BELIEVE IN=-
I'm nerd enough to link my WoW Armory Though I'll put it in a small font.
But if I can't tell the difference, and the people at my LGS can't tell the difference, why do I care about the authenticity of my cards?
Because if you're pawning off a fake 100-dollar card (Let's say Tarmogoyf, shall we?) to a player who doesn't notice the fakeness, then takes it to a tournament and gets DQ'd, you effectively scammed a player out of a 100 bucks. Furthermore, you are paying thieves and scammers for your cards rather then legimate businesses/players, so perhaps it's not your fault, but in that case you're just being a self-entitled idiot who is only out for his own gain and not for the health of the game.
Finally, you're stimulating counterfeiters business which will cause further flooding which will hurt a lot more legimate players/businesses which will lead to a decrease in players which will lead to a decrease in consumer base. Butterfly effect, except on a smaller scale.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Uh, did you actually click on the link and look at the cards? Like half of the ones in the picture are in Standard. Looked like all shocklands were being included, for instance. As well as PWers. I spot an elspeth, sun's champion in the pictures.
It is indeed directly undermining wotc sales.
Isnt that what i wrote? To impact Standard is to impact Wotc.
Correct me if I am wrong. So will an average USA FNM player set a demand for counterfiets? This I dont know.
These things have been around for years. It's funny how the company will create an imperfect Tarmogoyf and move on to stuff like Surgical Extraction before perfecting the $150 card.
I've seen them at tournaments before, but didn't want to DQ the player for an unintentional violation.
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These days, some wizards are finding they have a little too much deck left at the end of their $$$.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
Because if you're pawning off a fake 100-dollar card (Let's say Tarmogoyf, shall we?) to a player who doesn't notice the fakeness, then takes it to a tournament and gets DQ'd, you effectively scammed a player out of a 100 bucks. Furthermore, you are paying thieves and scammers for your cards rather then legimate businesses/players, so perhaps it's not your fault, but in that case you're just being a self-entitled idiot who is only out for his own gain and not for the health of the game.
Finally, you're stimulating counterfeiters business which will cause further flooding which will hurt a lot more legimate players/businesses which will lead to a decrease in players which will lead to a decrease in consumer base. Butterfly effect, except on a smaller scale.
No, you're missing the point. This thread is about "high quality" counterfeits. So high quality, it looks like, that it's impossible to tell from across the table. For a large majority of players, this seems irrelevant. There is no "they get disqualified" or "people end up quitting" scenario because these are apparently so good, or will soon become so good, that they wouldn't be questioned.
I buy exclusively from eBay, frequently finding very good deals. To my knowledge I haven't received counterfeit cards. But if I have, and I haven't noticed, and there is no chance this will affect me at all (again, because these are apparently apocalyptically good), why should I care?
A printer is a printer.
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#define ALWAYS SOMETIMES
#define NEVER RARELY
#define ALL MANY
-=GIVE US SOMETHING TO BELIEVE IN=-
I'm nerd enough to link my WoW Armory Though I'll put it in a small font.
Why should I care about oil reserves, animals extinction, global warming, slave labor, toxic wastes or piracy? As long as I can live easy and in luxury.
Short-sighted and egocentric, but yeah that's just the way we think.
This is a game where we pretend to be wizards with cardboard.
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#define ALWAYS SOMETIMES
#define NEVER RARELY
#define ALL MANY
-=GIVE US SOMETHING TO BELIEVE IN=-
I'm nerd enough to link my WoW Armory Though I'll put it in a small font.
My question is how are the counter fitters getting high resolution artwork to print with?
I know from working in the print industry that print resolution runs between 300-600 dpi. Your computer screen is 100 dpi, so its not like they can just grab images from gatherer and print. They would look terrible. High res scans of cards are a possibility maybe. But usually a copy of a copy yields less than stellar results.
I'm guessing if its simply a scan of a card, that I would be able to spot the differences on close inspection. But am I checking my opponent deck for counterfeits and expecting LGS to do so? No. At some level you have to trust people to do the right thing.
Also, this in no way makes sense to do unless there is a serious market for this stuff. Printing press printing and rounded corner finishing are not cheap unless your doing it in bulk.
Counterfeiting cards for profit is wrong (and I won't publicly announce my stance on proxies for the fear of sanctions). With that out of the way, some food for thought:
1) What is the virtue of a genuine card vs. a counterfeit card?
Assuming you don't know your card is a fake and it is good enough, what is the difference in a casual setting?
How about in a tournament setting? Can you get sanctioned as in, is it every player's responsibility to verify the authenticity of each of their registered card? Do people really do that?
2) MTG cards are WotC's intellectual property and MTG community are their customers. Their customers have spoken out quite loudly and clearly about WotC's policy on reprints and the reserve list etc. and WotC has made it clear that it does not care at all*.
I, personally, wouldn't care if WotC got burned by these. Badly even. They make the game I like and, on some level, I'm grateful for them for that. Sure. But they've made it clear that what players want does not matter one bit and I think that they have thus brought this on themselves.
They've aimed to increase the popularity of the game, while limiting people's access to the most interesting part of the game and instead have been trying to force players to content with their substandard replacements (aka Standard and Modern). They knowingly created the friction so, morally, counterfeits are becoming fair game.
I still don't advocate actually ordering counterfeit cards. I'm just saying that part of the reason counterfeit cards exist is that it is a solution to a problem WotC has very deliberately created for the players.
*yeah, Modern Master does not count one little bit. It was fine for what it was, but it had nothing to do with lowering the price threshold.
I can't believe the lengths twisting ideas to rationalize that wizards deserves this. Everyone should be opposed to counterfeits both legally and logically. Eternal formats WOULD NOT EXIST if Wizards went out of business.
Thinking that because Wizards doesn't reprint dual lands for you that means it is ok for companies to steal their profits is incredibly immoral and entitled. And thinking that Wizards isn't trying to create a great game every release is a bizarre stance to take. You think they're deliberately trying to create a "substandard experience" with each limited set they release? I'm glad we have high and mighty legacy players to tell us how all other formats are terrible.
I'm hopefully glad you are the minority. You come a hair's breath away from condoning counterfeits. Counterfeits are wrong. Morally and for the health of the game.
It is worrisome for someone like me (and others). I have been trying to get into Modern and Legacy, buying cards here and there (mostly eBay) if the price is right. I hate to think the fetches and staples I am buying are fakes. They pass the bend/light test, the dealers reputable, but it looks like that is not good enough anymore (and probably has not been good enough for a long time).
Its not to hard to imagine this getting out of control, I hope it doesn't.
Ut-Oh, time to sell... Man, I hope they don't start printing Betas and Unlimited power soon. They'd have to slowly introduce it and it'd have to be perfect but... Maybe WoTC already knew of this, hence the new "anti piracy" measures?
I buy exclusively from eBay, frequently finding very good deals. To my knowledge I haven't received counterfeit cards. But if I have, and I haven't noticed, and there is no chance this will affect me at all (again, because these are apparently apocalyptically good), why should I care?
A printer is a printer.
Only if you don't look at consequences or chain of events you shouldn't care. (or reduce the issue down to assuage your guilt)
But if you can use logical reasoning you should care.
Every single's price is a function of it's demand and the price of packs. Packs are opened. People pay for them and the singles come out of that. The pack price influences the single price. You can see this in how mythic rares cost more because more packs must be opened to supply them.
Every time you buy a legitimate single you are taking part in the economic chain that drives pack sales. More voracious single buying will drive more pack sales.
If you are buying counterfeit, you are outside that chain. Wizards isn't making any money, some Chinese thieves are. You satisfy your card buying but Wizards see no benefit. It is as if they lost a customer.
If wizards folds then the whole things folds. You may think we could survive trading around the existing remnants of the game, but without new players or sets most of the commercial secondary sellers, LGS, and communities will just give up and leave. Kill Wizards and you kill the game.
I don't see a problem if the fakes are so good its practically impossible to tell the difference. WoTC made their bed now they can lie in it. I only play MTGO though, so the paper world is largely irrelevant. However, making Modern cheaper will increase interest - this is only a good thing.
As for legacy? Not one **** will be given.
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This.
Even if fakes become more rampant, who exactly does it hurt? Seems like it wouldn't hurt WotC that directly, because it's just the secondary market. And if fakes became rampant enough (doubtful) to significantly suppress older card prices, then simple supply and demand suggests the counterfeiters will go somewhere else.
And if someone is playing with a Goyf that some Chinese counterfeiter made rather than one that WotC made, and they aren't even aware of it, well, who cares? Why fetishize cardboard produced by WotC as opposed to cardboard produced by someone else?
I'm not condoning buying counterfeit goods on purpose to save money, but if these are really that good and they start getting into various distribution channels, it's just inevitable that they will be used by people unknowingly.
And, again, who cares?
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/25324_World-War-M.html
I wonder if those Chinese counterfeiters is just the glimpse of the real Magic Apocalypse.
Though I'll put it in a small font.
Please stop hijacking my reply box.
I agree that we as consumers don't have much reason to care, but WOTC clearly does.
Where do you think people get cards to sell on the secondary market.....? From WOTC. To the extent that some of them might get them from China instead, those are cards WOTC is not selling to distributors anymore. It directly affects them.
Player --> another Player, WOTC doesn't care.
Supplier --> Secondary market, WOTC cares intimately.
To affect Wotc's revenues, counterfeits need to hit Standard or the premium product range, eg. MM.
It truly depends on how the average USA FNM player wants to get their singles..
In the long run, Wotc will be affected as their 'partners'(retailers) are.
They're also using the wrong fonts. That's not Matrix Bold in the artist's name & Plantin in the text box, that's something else.
https://twitch.tv/annorax10 (classic retro speedruns & occasional MTGO/MTGA screwaround streams)
https://twitch.tv/SwiftorCasino (yes, my team and I run live dealer games for the baldman using his channel points as chips)
I'm pretty sure a move like that would expedite the Magic Apocalypse way more than the removal of the reserve list. Consumer confidence on how WoTC manages threats would plummet.
I imagine the holofoil stamp isn't too hard to counterfeit as well for a huge printing company.
Standard
Modern
Living End Combo
Legacy
T.E.S.
TezzAffinity
Combo Elves
Belcher
Forgemaster Combo
High Tide
Solidarity
Merfolk
Burn
Goblins
UnLEDed Dredge
EDH/Commander
Olivia Voldaren
Sigarda, Host of Herons
Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer
Jhoira of the Ghitu
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Edric, Spymaster of Trest
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
Rosheen Meanderer
Ghost Council of Orzhova
Vela the Night-Clad
Uh, did you actually click on the link and look at the cards? Like half of the ones in the picture are in Standard. Looked like all shocklands were being included, for instance. As well as PWers. I spot an elspeth, sun's champion in the pictures.
It is indeed directly undermining wotc sales.
But it would stop anybody dead in their tracks who had a mind to try some shenanigans at Kinko's or whatever.
The big companies are easier to pursue in court, and the mom and pop local folks are easier to stop by adding things like holograms.
I'm just sad because I know some newbie magic player is going to go to his first GP to play some matches just to get DQ in round three from playing fake cards that he had no idea where fake.
The cards are turning up in the US. And allegedly the company/companies which print them take orders in batches of thousands. The minute they get good enough at this, we're all in trouble.
Take off the blinkers for a moment. This isn't about SCG having to lower prices a few bucks. It's about wholeheartedly crashing the secondary market. And, ironically, the largest vendors would probably be best position to survive, since they could build a reputation around guaranteed genuine product, while all the smaller sellers -- you know, the people you deal with on ebay, TCG, MKM, etc., who mostly don't have wide reputations and would suddenly be suspect -- would probably get squeezed out.
The consequences of this are probably not what you want, assuming you enjoy having a community of people to play Magic with.
----
Lightning Bolts don't kill creatures. State-based actions kill creatures.
Thinking long term if Wotc want's to keep modern/legacy/vintage legit won't this mean that they will have to print new version of the cards that are much harder to counterfit, or offer up a service now where the barcode/chip your card now to verify it's legitmacy before the counterfeits come in.
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled.
I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
Though I'll put it in a small font.
Please stop hijacking my reply box.
Because if you're pawning off a fake 100-dollar card (Let's say Tarmogoyf, shall we?) to a player who doesn't notice the fakeness, then takes it to a tournament and gets DQ'd, you effectively scammed a player out of a 100 bucks. Furthermore, you are paying thieves and scammers for your cards rather then legimate businesses/players, so perhaps it's not your fault, but in that case you're just being a self-entitled idiot who is only out for his own gain and not for the health of the game.
Finally, you're stimulating counterfeiters business which will cause further flooding which will hurt a lot more legimate players/businesses which will lead to a decrease in players which will lead to a decrease in consumer base. Butterfly effect, except on a smaller scale.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Isnt that what i wrote? To impact Standard is to impact Wotc.
Correct me if I am wrong. So will an average USA FNM player set a demand for counterfiets? This I dont know.
I've seen them at tournaments before, but didn't want to DQ the player for an unintentional violation.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
I buy exclusively from eBay, frequently finding very good deals. To my knowledge I haven't received counterfeit cards. But if I have, and I haven't noticed, and there is no chance this will affect me at all (again, because these are apparently apocalyptically good), why should I care?
A printer is a printer.
Though I'll put it in a small font.
Please stop hijacking my reply box.
Though I'll put it in a small font.
Please stop hijacking my reply box.
I know from working in the print industry that print resolution runs between 300-600 dpi. Your computer screen is 100 dpi, so its not like they can just grab images from gatherer and print. They would look terrible. High res scans of cards are a possibility maybe. But usually a copy of a copy yields less than stellar results.
I'm guessing if its simply a scan of a card, that I would be able to spot the differences on close inspection. But am I checking my opponent deck for counterfeits and expecting LGS to do so? No. At some level you have to trust people to do the right thing.
Also, this in no way makes sense to do unless there is a serious market for this stuff. Printing press printing and rounded corner finishing are not cheap unless your doing it in bulk.
MTGO suddenly becomes a lot more appealing.
G Elves
U Merfolk
I can't believe the lengths twisting ideas to rationalize that wizards deserves this. Everyone should be opposed to counterfeits both legally and logically. Eternal formats WOULD NOT EXIST if Wizards went out of business.
Thinking that because Wizards doesn't reprint dual lands for you that means it is ok for companies to steal their profits is incredibly immoral and entitled. And thinking that Wizards isn't trying to create a great game every release is a bizarre stance to take. You think they're deliberately trying to create a "substandard experience" with each limited set they release? I'm glad we have high and mighty legacy players to tell us how all other formats are terrible.
I'm hopefully glad you are the minority. You come a hair's breath away from condoning counterfeits. Counterfeits are wrong. Morally and for the health of the game.
Its not to hard to imagine this getting out of control, I hope it doesn't.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=517520
Only if you don't look at consequences or chain of events you shouldn't care. (or reduce the issue down to assuage your guilt)
But if you can use logical reasoning you should care.
Every single's price is a function of it's demand and the price of packs. Packs are opened. People pay for them and the singles come out of that. The pack price influences the single price. You can see this in how mythic rares cost more because more packs must be opened to supply them.
Every time you buy a legitimate single you are taking part in the economic chain that drives pack sales. More voracious single buying will drive more pack sales.
If you are buying counterfeit, you are outside that chain. Wizards isn't making any money, some Chinese thieves are. You satisfy your card buying but Wizards see no benefit. It is as if they lost a customer.
If wizards folds then the whole things folds. You may think we could survive trading around the existing remnants of the game, but without new players or sets most of the commercial secondary sellers, LGS, and communities will just give up and leave. Kill Wizards and you kill the game.
Wanna hear what I think about restaurants?
Check out my http://damancy.blogspot.com/
Trust me! IM FAT!!!!
As for legacy? Not one **** will be given.