1 thing I don't get.
You are not playing tournaments and you are okay with fakes. What's stopping you then from making your own proxies and never ever having to complain about card prices again? I don't see the problem you are having.
Peer presure and law, I would assume.
Fist, you cannot play obvious proxies at a store, much less a store where dealers dwell, or you'll be stoned to death. Which means you can never expand your playgroup or simply go play with random strangers unless you spend $40k on your deck like their overlord SCG demands.
Second, it's ilegal to make proxies, but not to buy them.
My group's only been playing since AVR came out, and we have spent considerably less than what our collection is worth, and just about the only thing's we've bought are boxes and cheap foils..
If you can't trade standard for legacy, you're doing it wrong, you're at the wrong place, you know the wrong people, or all of the above.
Or you actually value your time/have a job. Monetize all the time you spent hunting for those trades to a non-min wage job's hourly fee and I'm pretty sure you'll come out at a loss.
If it was that easy everyone would be playing legacy, but first, it's not that easy, specially for single individuals compared to teams/playgroups. And second, there just aren't enough dual lands in the world for everyone who wants to play them.
Is "Sorry, you're late, you will never be able to play at top level" the right mindset for this game's future development?
How pervasive is this attitude among players who go to tournaments and consider themselves "competitive?" I am really, genuinely curious. The idea that, as a player, you think you are somehow more valid than another player because you go to tournaments. Does that raise you above someone that does not go to a tournament? Is it based on the notion that you are some kind of high-minded strategist, testing your mettle against other genius, cardboard slingers? You get a warm, fuzzy feeling being crammed into the convention center at the nearest Hilton, filling out decklists, talking about the current meta, how your darkhorse-homebrew is going to smash the tier 1 netdecks. Have you ascended to a level where your understanding of the game's intricacies cannot be matched by anyone that doesn't have a DCI number? You are entitled to cards before someone else because they don't trek to every PTQ in the area? Is that what some of these so-called "competitive" players see when they look into a mirror?
What I've heard is mostly "I need them to make money, casuals don't".
Again, it's pure, filthy greed.
Second, it's ilegal to make proxies, but not to buy them
No, in the US, both are illegal (the type shown in the OP, I mean, absolutely is illegal to buy or make. I'm not commenting either way on sharpie on an index card, etc.). People are successfully sued all the time for downloading pirated music, not just sharing it. Etc.
Companies are much more likely to go after you if you distribute, because it is more efficient, but both are still illegal.
No, in the US, both are illegal (the type shown in the OP, I mean, absolutely is illegal to buy or make. I'm not commenting either way on sharpie on an index card, etc.). People are successfully sued all the time for downloading pirated music, not just sharing it. Etc.
Companies are much more likely to go after you if you distribute, because it is more efficient, but both are still illegal.
I don't know whether this is the case or not, but can you explain why it would be illegal to buy a product if you don't know that it's a knock-off? Perhaps the law would require proof that the consumer knowingly bought unofficial product? It just seems impossible to enforce, even on an individual basis.
As someone on a Canadian mtg podcast recently pointed out, a lot of kids simply see that they can buy a piece of software for the price of buying a single piece in this game and move on from ever spending any money on it.
It's just painful to watch a business in the country that I live and love flounder so astonishingly at what is basically printing their own currency. They are being outmaneuvered by a group of goddamn unscrupulous Chinese! (No offense meant for the scrupulous Chinese out there).
I don't know whether this is the case or not, but can you explain why it would be illegal to buy a product if you don't know that it's a knock-off? Perhaps the law would require proof that the consumer knowingly bought unofficial product? It just seems impossible to enforce, even on an individual basis.
Sorry, wasn't being clear. If you have NO IDEA, then no, there's almost no chance you'd be convicted/probably isn't technically illegal. Most crimes require both some sort of injury, as well as guilty intent. Or at the very least, it would be taken strongly into consideration that you didn't know.
If you do know that it is counterfeit, though, then it is definitely straight up illegal. And since the guy in the thread was originally asking "Why don't you just use proxies?" he was implying intentionality. So that's what I was talking about.
Anyway. Huge difference between "This outcome, which is out of my control (WOTC going out of business or not), would be good/bad for me" versus "I am going to actively start faking things and being sketchy." Just commenting on how I would react passively, only.
I have $2,000 into a legacy deck--actually more than that. It's Esper Deathblade. The only cards I'm missing is one JTMS (which is moot, you can play it with two), and 8 fetchlands. The other cards that I'm missing are in the $4-5 range. All of the former standard legal stuff (geists, snapcasters, deathrite shamans, abrupt decays) are foiled out.
When I started trading for that deck, the best non standard legal card my play group had was a mother of runes.
Recently my friend traded mutavault's and hero's downfalls for a JTMS, which we actually came up value wise on the trade, twice, because both of those cards we got for a lot cheaper when we got them.
Every card we traded for, we traded standard for. I traded a foil huntmaster and a bunch of mizzium mortars, m13 lands, and other soon-to-be rotating stuff and got a player rewards wasteland, all for stuff that was going to be rotating in 2 months. I then broke that down, gave something else, and got my playset of wastelands.
I got two underground seas and a playset of stifles for a playset of foil snapcasters and a foil Thalia. The other two underground seas we got for a LOT of $14 stomping grounds, which the guy was taking in at $17, and about 5 $20 huntmaster of the fells.
I've turned a lot of cards into deathrite shaman and deathrite shaman into other cards.
My group's only been playing since AVR came out, and we have spent considerably less than what our collection is worth, and just about the only thing's we've bought are boxes and cheap foils. I bought a foil Path the other week. One of the most expensive card's I've purchased.
BTW, the last time I played magic was in zen/scars block, and I quit around when Jace got banned, and well, I did the same thing then, too. The best trade we did then was trading a foil Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas for a FoW and a Trop Island. At the time, it was fair, completely equal on TCGplayer.
If you can't trade standard for legacy, you're doing it wrong, you're at the wrong place, you know the wrong people, or all of the above.
It sounds like you are doing very succerssfully with your trades...from one standpoint. In my eyes you are either cheating people or starting with a lot of capital from the start.
Either you are funneling your junk into standard staples and then trading those bundles into eternals or and this is true for both scenarios, you simply had a TON of the money cards from standard anyway, ergo you can afford legacy anyways.
Well, I say, good for you. Cool story, bro. I, and many others cannot afford these eternal staples but I want to play deathblade just as much as you do.
My only option to afford these cards is the chinese.
Don't come with some holier than thou attitude and flame myself or my view on this.
Simply realize that this is happening.
Idk and idc if you went to college, but its basic economics.
Our player base is expanding rapidly and the number of staples is drying up. People seem to think I can just run watery grave as a direct substitute for underground sea when playing legacy. Maybe you will tell me next that evolving wilds is pretty much the same thing as polluted delta. Chance not.
I would like to know who feels the same way about these proxies as I do, send me a PM.
And props to the guy who said that maybe a kick in the jewels was what wotc needed to wake up and reprint.
Sorry, wasn't being clear. If you have NO IDEA, then no, there's almost no chance you'd be convicted/probably isn't technically illegal. Most crimes require both some sort of injury, as well as guilty intent. Or at the very least, it would be taken strongly into consideration that you didn't know.
If you do know that it is counterfeit, though, then it is definitely straight up illegal. And since the guy in the thread was originally asking "Why don't you just use proxies?" he was implying intentionality. So that's what I was talking about.
Anyway. Huge difference between "This outcome, which is out of my control (WOTC going out of business or not), would be good/bad for me" versus "I am going to actively start faking things and being sketchy." Just commenting on how I would react passively, only.
Actually. Its not illlegal to buy them for yourself but illegal to sell them.
Example: I own a business and a customer pays me with an obviously fake $100bill. If I accept it as payment I am not a criminal but they are.
To be a crime there needs to be proof of intent to resell the cards.
Tbh I would like to have a $0.25 jtms so I can paint it with acryllics and have a reallly cool version for my edh.
I would never risk painting a card worth $100 or more
WOTC already does this though, they are at peak milking capacity. Maybe they'll try to charge more for m15 because of holograms or something but they are pretty much at the most expensive possible prices. Hell, they are even selling extremely marked up silver "coins" with jace on them, not quite sure how much worse it could get. Knockoffs are very common in almost every area of manufacture, it's for some reason just hitting MTG. Again, I think this result is just logical when $0.02 cards are selling for $100, that profit margin is on par with any other widely done illegal activity.
I mean just look at digital card prices on MTGO... The milking is in full force. A MMO that costs $200,000,000 to make charges $10-15 a month or more normally f2p now, compare this with the price of regularly playing MTGO drafts and look at the quality of the client. I don't understand why PLAYERS would have brand loyalty to be upset over a possible price decrease or reserved cards being made. $1 or $100...
Counterfeiters, Hearthstone, Hex, .. it's just clear MTG is facing a lot of trouble in 2014 and it's trouble they created by having horribly overpriced and produced digital play and ridiculous paper prices.
The price of cards are decided by the player's willing to purchase them.
Now, most legacy players who wouldn't be upset about cards dropping paid far far less for them many years ago. The people who want them but aren't willing to buy them want them to drop in price to be more affordable to them.
I've said it time and time again, if cards are too expensive for you, play casual only, or go play ascension.
I'm fine playing a janky deck because I can't get the cards, or going to a SCO and drafting all day because I can't enter. I'm fine not playing at all, walking around looking for trades so that maybe I can play next week, and between that I'm talking to friends I only see at those events.
If you think that counterfeit cards will somehow be good for the game, you're damn wrong. Wizards will have to make up the profit margin. If high quality counterfeit's become so regular that people are buying them over real cards, Wizards will raise the price of packs, then discontinue paper magic entirely.
Imagine $7 booster packs that aren't modern masters. That's what will happen, and people will buy them.
I would like to know who feels the same way about these proxies as I do, send me a PM.
I do, and so do an insane ammount of peope in reddit, facebook, twitter. Why WotC would choose to remain blind to all these ****ing millions of dollars basically screaming "I could be yours if you made $5 shocklands, but I'd rather go to china if you keep allowing market cornering", I just cannot fathom. It's as if SCG's and other mass retailers' interests were more important to WotC than their own and LGS's.
The price of cards are decided by the player's willing to purchase them.
Now, most legacy players who wouldn't be upset about cards dropping paid far far less for them many years ago. The people who want them but aren't willing to buy them want them to drop in price to be more affordable to them.
I've said it time and time again, if cards are too expensive for you, play casual only, or go play ascension.
I'm fine playing a janky deck because I can't get the cards, or going to a SCO and drafting all day because I can't enter. I'm fine not playing at all, walking around looking for trades so that maybe I can play next week, and between that I'm talking to friends I only see at those events.
If you think that counterfeit cards will somehow be good for the game, you're damn wrong. Wizards will have to make up the profit margin. If high quality counterfeit's become so regular that people are buying them over real cards, Wizards will raise the price of packs, then discontinue paper magic entirely.
Imagine $7 booster packs that aren't modern masters. That's what will happen, and people will buy them.
This ammount of stupidity is a spat on the face of everyone who wanted to play Jund thanks to Modern Masters and instead got **** because SCG with it's massive pockets decided Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant should be MORE expensive because THEY could play for the cards.
If all the people you keep telling to **** off because they aren't ok with not playing at all like high and mighty you, did so, you'd be left with no game faster than if we all just started buying forgeries.
At least the people buying fakes to finally play the ****ing game would still contribute entry fees for tournaments.
These Chinese counterfeits are in no way a solution to this problem. Their makers are a bunch of scumbags trying to cash in on the business missteps of WOTC.
I'd be interested in seeing the speculative stats on just how much money WOTC is losing for themselves by allowing the secondary market to take so much of their profits. Counterfeiters are merely the illegitimate side of the secondary market.
I think it's wrong, however, to say that SCG and similar retailers are the ones making money to Wizard's detriment. They're on record repeatedly saying that they wish that there was more product to sell (SCG understands the revolutionary business model of 'make things, sell them') through the removal of the reserve list, reprints, and more support for Legacy.
I do, and so do an insane ammount of peope in reddit, facebook, twitter. Why WotC would choose to remain blind to all these ****ing millions of dollars basically screaming "I could be yours if you made $5 shocklands, but I'd rather go to china if you keep allowing market cornering", I just cannot fathom. It's as if SCG's and other mass retailers' interests were more important to WotC than their own and LGS's.
You can argue the secondary market has gotten out of hand with the SCGs of the world, but Magic: the Gathering is not a cheap hobby, nor has it ever been.
Many of you have written here that some salesman from the chinese company wrote you the police closed their factory. Bad news, it's not true. They just have so many orders that one employee told this lie. I asked the man who is sending me the free sample of cards about this, he confirmed. See the screenshots.
Please excuse my grammar in this post and in the chat as I'm pissed drunk.
Yeah lets pay a million bucks for three cards every three months, and of course everyone wants those cards, in multiples, and of course there aren't enough copies for everyone who wants to play. I sure cannot see the problem with that system.
Hero's Downfall should have been uncommon, if you're designing a multi-format 4-of staple at least make sure you print enough of the damn thing for players to get them, otherwise I'll keep accusing WotC of being in agreement with secondary market cornerers to create artificial scarcity and make them rich while the game suffers from extreme inaccesibility.
That's some massive persecution complex there. People here, other than a few very pissed people, haven't said a thing about WotC to die. We want them to print the cards we need to keep playing the damn game and we want them to be accessible not only to rich people with no other life expenses. Is that so ****ing hard to fathom?
If they don't deliver the game will die either way, because the ammount of people able to play will keep becoming less and less until the profit margin delivers an unacceptable gain and Hasbro shuts them down. And it will not be Timmy and Vorthos' fault. Not even Spike's or Chinesebootlegman's fault. It'll be speculators, market cornering second hand retailers, and people like you demonizing everyone who dares ask for the game to be accesible, who will be to blame.
Talking about yourself here? It's obvious you're content with the status quo and would rather keep paying SCG $1000+ for a goyf than even entertaining the thought that it is wrong and it's damaging the game in the long run.
All it takes is one big speculator to have an accident, illness or any other need that forces to sell for cheap and the speculator bubble goes crazy. That is not a stable status to want to adhere to and we want out of the secondary market, not WotC, we don't want WotC to die, we don't want Hasbro to die. We want the mother****ing vultures that binge bought every Fist of Suns to get the **** out of the game and let us play. If china can do that (not even moving the prices, just helping destroy internet buying confidence) I welcome them with open arms.
In fact, I agree with everything that you said here. However, Crimeo said that he would be fine if Hasbro went out of business if it meant that he would get cheap cards. That's what I was disagreeing with. I do not want the status quo. I stayed out of Standard because it would cost too much money to maintain, I can't get into Legacy because it costs too much, and I am quitting paper Magic altogether because I can't afford it. I want Modern cards to be cheaper. I want reprints. I wish that speculators didn't exist. But making WotC go out business is not how to achieve that. That is what I was arguing about, not the goal, but the process.
NOR more selfish than competitive players. Why are speculators and casuals "wrongs" while supporting competitive play at the expense of casuals is a "right?"
What will probably happen in the end is just whatever is in the interest of the largest number of people (or perhaps the largest sum of invested money amongst a group of people). I don't know which group that is.
But regardless, selfishness amongst some group of people will carry the day one way or the other. I don't see much reason to ascribe a moral judgment to that fact, and being sad about it won't change much.
You still don't get it. You want all tournaments to end, no new cards to be printed, and everyone at WotC to lose their jobs just so casual players can afford Goyfs. That is the most selfish thing that I've ever heard on these forums, and I have heard people say that Wizards should never reprints cards from before Modern in Standard because it changes Modern. If casual players can't afford the best cards, well that is too bad for them. But the average casual player wouldn't want thousands of people to lose their jobs just so they can afford that Jace, the Mind Sculptor.
Nope, it looks like they just couldn't keep up with the orders:
LOL wow. This is just absolutely ridiculous. Think of how much money Wizards would make if they were to directly sell Tarmogoyfs for $20. They would gain a lot more revenue and cut out all the bull**** that is the secondary market and fake cards.
I'm half a click away from being completely unable to believe that guys you found big enough idiots to make those trades. Why would people willingly, and assumedly knowingly, do what equates to throwing dollar bills in the fireplace?
Just because it's a "completely equal" trade on TCGplayer or whatever site you use to price doesn't mean its a good trade for both parties involved imho. If someone traded a Snapcaster Mage for a Sphinx's Revelation today, I would argue they made a pretty horrible trade unless they have a way to flip that Rev into something else ASAP.
I would do Snapcaster for sphinx, or sphinx for Snapcaster. I would do that trade both ways. Sphinx is more liquid than Snapcaster--it's standard legal. Snapcaster has a higher price Threshhold, but sphinx is at a higher price now. It's not hard to trade a staple like sphinx revelation. And Snapcaster's an amazing card, the reason my group once had two playsets of foils and 7 non foils at the same time. (Currently we have a set of foils and 3 non foils--We'll have to complete the non foil set soon if it ever comes up--but it's not a priority.)
The reason I explain this is because the guy I traded the Tezzeret to owned a store. You know what sells well? Hot new foil planeswalkers. You know what doesn't sell well? Legacy staples.
I know a lot of people who play, collect, and trade magic. EDH players, PTQ grinders, floor traders, and store owners. It all comes down to 'get this person what they want to get what another person wants, to get what I want.' At the end of the day, there are few people that I've ever ripped off. You can ask the kid I forced to take a shockland because he pulled out 10 $1 or less rares and said it was worth his thoughtseize.
It sounds like you are doing very succerssfully with your trades...from one standpoint. In my eyes you are either cheating people or starting with a lot of capital from the start.
Either you are funneling your junk into standard staples and then trading those bundles into eternals or and this is true for both scenarios, you simply had a TON of the money cards from standard anyway, ergo you can afford legacy anyways.
Well, I say, good for you. Cool story, bro. I, and many others cannot afford these eternal staples but I want to play deathblade just as much as you do.
My only option to afford these cards is the chinese.
Don't come with some holier than thou attitude and flame myself or my view on this.
Simply realize that this is happening.
Idk and idc if you went to college, but its basic economics.
Our player base is expanding rapidly and the number of staples is drying up. People seem to think I can just run watery grave as a direct substitute for underground sea when playing legacy. Maybe you will tell me next that evolving wilds is pretty much the same thing as polluted delta. Chance not.
I would like to know who feels the same way about these proxies as I do, send me a PM.
And props to the guy who said that maybe a kick in the jewels was what wotc needed to wake up and reprint.
Goyf's high price tag is so high because people are buying it at that price , if they weren't, then it would drop in price, which is basic economics.
You're right, there are a lot of people playing this game, which is why it's so expensive to play it, because people are paying money to buy the cards.
Am I good at trading? Sure. I'm not the best. Sometimes I lose money, sometimes those cards I've lost money on spike the next week and I made a lot of profit off of a trade. But the fact is, is that I actually go out and look for trades.
My group started with boxes, opening random packs and making a trade binder. You're probably assuming something along the lines of multiple cases, which just isn't true. Maybe $3-400 worth of boxes started the collection. The last collection we had was started with a very lucky double JTMS box of worldwake. I can guarantee that my group has likely spent less money on cards for this game than 90% of the members of this forum, and that I'm part of a collection that's far more impressive than theirs as well. It's not impossible to trade, but you have to know what you're doing and the people you're trading with. I do. I know people who play this game, I have friends who only want 'foil Korean blah blah blah' or who only want 'non foil EDH staples', and the key to this is moving these cards around so that everyone is happy.
I'm sorry you can't afford to play this game. I make minimum wage, carefully watch what I spend my money on, and spend as close to nothing on this game as I possibly can. And I'm pretty close to being able to play legacy. I have duals, mindsculptors, FoWs, expensive ass foils, and I spent nothing on them other than having to, oh my god, meet new people, hang out with friends, and spend a couple hours driving to different stores/ tournaments.
I do, and so do an insane ammount of peope in reddit, facebook, twitter. Why WotC would choose to remain blind to all these ****ing millions of dollars basically screaming "I could be yours if you made $5 shocklands, but I'd rather go to china if you keep allowing market cornering", I just cannot fathom. It's as if SCG's and other mass retailers' interests were more important to WotC than their own and LGS's.
This ammount of stupidity is a spat on the face of everyone who wanted to play Jund thanks to Modern Masters and instead got **** because SCG with it's massive pockets decided Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant should be MORE expensive because THEY could play for the cards.
If all the people you keep telling to **** off because they aren't ok with not playing at all like high and mighty you, did so, you'd be left with no game faster than if we all just started buying forgeries.
At least the people buying fakes to finally play the ****ing game would still contribute entry fees for tournaments.
You're upset with me because I'm saying counterfeit cards are bad for magic? I honestly think you are not only condoning, but stating that you plan to purchase and use counterfeit magic cards 'because **** WoTC', and sir, if that is the case, you are far worse for the game of Magic than your mental fiction of the evils of collectors ever could be.
You can argue the secondary market has gotten out of hand with the SCGs of the world, but Magic: the Gathering is not a cheap hobby, nor has it ever been.
I started playing at age 8 in 1994. I managed it as a hobby on my meager allowance. Revised and The Dark were the first sets I played with.
I am 28 now. I have a substantial collection but own no jtms no goyf no onslought fetches. Oh yeah, and no dual lands (revised). They used to be $5 dollars at channel fireball, which acually used to be called superstars of sports and be literally across the street from my house I grew up in in cupertino, ca. My friend and I would walk past it every day coming home from school. Or maybe we would stop in and comment how we couldn't believe a land card was $5. Black lotus was by far the most expensive card at $300.
I even recall the we cracked our first pack of exodus and pulled a recurring nightmare ($1) I told him it wasn't a very good card and we moved on with our lives.
The reason I share this is because we all know that at its heart this is a game. Could you imagine having to shell out over $1000 for chess pieces to go to a tournament in order to have any chance of placing before even considering entry fees.
Mark my words, a storm is coming.
:wizard:wizards:wizard: should look at this as an opportunity. There are no grounds under which they could be sued by announcing the removal of the reserve list
I'm half a click away from being completely unable to believe that guys you found big enough idiots to make those trades. Why would people willingly, and assumedly knowingly, do what equates to throwing dollar bills in the fireplace?
Just because it's a "completely equal" trade on TCGplayer or whatever site you use to price doesn't mean its a good trade for both parties involved imho. If someone traded a Snapcaster Mage for a Sphinx's Revelation today, I would argue they made a pretty horrible trade unless they have a way to flip that Rev into something else ASAP.
Value isn't everything. Trades only happen because both parties are getting what they want. It's also what buylists are for. I traded my standard and modern staples into Channel Fireball and built RUG delver for legacy. I'm happy because I'm getting cards I want, and CFB is happy because they are making money. They can turn around and sell those cards I sent them for full value, because they are a store. But it's very hard for me to trade standard and modern cards at full value to get legacy cards.
And even if it wasn't for legacy, I have given up a few dollars in value to get cards I wanted. Because it's not worth my time to go hunting down a card in person just so I can get equal value for my cards.
People trading standard staples for legacy staples happens quite often. I don't play black in legacy so I traded a foil Hymn to Tourach for some standard stuff. And I got that foil Hymn for a foil CFB token, that I got for free.
You still don't get it. You want all tournaments to end, no new cards to be printed, and everyone at WotC to lose their jobs just so casual players can afford Goyfs. That is the most selfish thing that I've ever heard on these forums, and I have heard people say that Wizards should never reprints cards from before Modern in Standard because it changes Modern. If casual players can't afford the best cards, well that is too bad for them. But the average casual player wouldn't want thousands of people to lose their jobs just so they can afford that Jace, the Mind Sculptor.
I'm not selling counterfeit cards, dude. I am WATCHING as WOTC acts in a way that might cause its employees to maybe lose their jobs if they keep it up. It's neither my doing nor would I prefer that to happen.
As I repeatedly said, the best outcome of all would be for WOTC to act intelligently and make reprints. Then we would have cheap cards and tournaments and nobody would lose their job and the criminals would stop.
If they refuse to do so, then any jobs that may be lost are on their heads. I am simply saying that the result wouldn't be so bad for me if it came to that. But an even better outcome for me would be them reprinting these things themselves.
I recommend people to stop eating, cancel rent payments, and then you can afford a lot of duals without having to worry about the price tag. Sometimes you just have to buckle up and buy that expensive cardboard from the price gauging secondary market.
All right people, how the hell did those fakes from China get all the way here to North America? They don't just show up by magic (get the pun?) But anyways, at some point, it has to exchange hands to reach either a card shop or an online store or a person who plays Magic.
In fact, I agree with everything that you said here. However, Crimeo said that he would be fine if Hasbro went out of business if it meant that he would get cheap cards. That's what I was disagreeing with. I do not want the status quo. I stayed out of Standard because it would cost too much money to maintain, I can't get into Legacy because it costs too much, and I am quitting paper Magic altogether because I can't afford it. I want Modern cards to be cheaper. I want reprints. I wish that speculators didn't exist. But making WotC go out business is not how to achieve that. That is what I was arguing about, not the goal, but the process.
You still don't get it. You want all tournaments to end, no new cards to be printed, and everyone at WotC to lose their jobs just so casual players can afford Goyfs. That is the most selfish thing that I've ever heard on these forums, and I have heard people say that Wizards should never reprints cards from before Modern in Standard because it changes Modern. If casual players can't afford the best cards, well that is too bad for them. But the average casual player wouldn't want thousands of people to lose their jobs just so they can afford that Jace, the Mind Sculptor.
Seriously, why are you worrying over Hasbro/Wotc?
1) Hasbro/Wotc have professionals, being paid thousands monthly to do what you are doing now. Profit watching and answering to shareholders..
2) Do you even know how big and powerful Hasbro/Wotc (maybe not Wotc) is? Even if all the card shops closed down, SCGs and such closed down and Wotc closed down, Hasbro will only lose a percentage of their annual 'pie'.
Want to talk about copyrights wars? Look at the case study of Samsung vs Apple? Want to see how big corporations are resilient to losses? See Sony vs Public.
I'm not selling counterfeit cards, dude. I am WATCHING as WOTC acts in a way that might cause its employees to maybe lose their jobs if they keep it up. It's neither my doing nor would I prefer that to happen.
As I repeatedly said, the best outcome of all would be for WOTC to act intelligently and make reprints. Then we would have cheap cards and tournaments and nobody would lose their job and the criminals would stop.
If they refuse to do so, then any jobs that may be lost are on their heads. I am simply saying that the result wouldn't be so bad for me if it came to that. But an even better outcome for me would be them reprinting these things themselves.
I agree with you on what the best outcome would be. I just think that the worst outcome would not be people still needing to pay a lot of money for cards. The worst outcome would be the end of WotC, MTGO, sanctioned tournaments, new cards, and the entire plot.
1) Hasbro/Wotc have professionals, being paid thousands monthly to do what you are doing now. Profit watching..
2) Do you even know how big and powerful Hasbro/Wotc (maybe not Wotc) is? Even if all the card shops closed down, SCGs and such closed down and Wotc closed down, Hasbro will only lose a percentage of their annual 'pie'.
Want to talk about copyrights wars? Look at the case study of Samsung vs Apple? Want to see how big corporations are resilient to losses? See Sony vs Public.
1) Good point. It was just brought up before that if the market on singles crashed, people wouldn't buy packs, Magic would become unprofitable, and the game would die. Crimeo said that that would be better than having to pay ridiculous amounts of money for cards. So we are arguing about what the worst-case scenario is.
2) If WotC closed down, Magic would die, even if Hasbro was still around. That is what I am worried about as the worst-case scenario.
Peer presure and law, I would assume.
Fist, you cannot play obvious proxies at a store, much less a store where dealers dwell, or you'll be stoned to death. Which means you can never expand your playgroup or simply go play with random strangers unless you spend $40k on your deck like their overlord SCG demands.
Second, it's ilegal to make proxies, but not to buy them.
Or you actually value your time/have a job. Monetize all the time you spent hunting for those trades to a non-min wage job's hourly fee and I'm pretty sure you'll come out at a loss.
If it was that easy everyone would be playing legacy, but first, it's not that easy, specially for single individuals compared to teams/playgroups. And second, there just aren't enough dual lands in the world for everyone who wants to play them.
Is "Sorry, you're late, you will never be able to play at top level" the right mindset for this game's future development?
What I've heard is mostly "I need them to make money, casuals don't".
Again, it's pure, filthy greed.
Yeah, that's really weird how it's legal to buy these, but illegal to make crappy self proxies using MTG art.
No, in the US, both are illegal (the type shown in the OP, I mean, absolutely is illegal to buy or make. I'm not commenting either way on sharpie on an index card, etc.). People are successfully sued all the time for downloading pirated music, not just sharing it. Etc.
Companies are much more likely to go after you if you distribute, because it is more efficient, but both are still illegal.
I don't know whether this is the case or not, but can you explain why it would be illegal to buy a product if you don't know that it's a knock-off? Perhaps the law would require proof that the consumer knowingly bought unofficial product? It just seems impossible to enforce, even on an individual basis.
It's just painful to watch a business in the country that I live and love flounder so astonishingly at what is basically printing their own currency. They are being outmaneuvered by a group of goddamn unscrupulous Chinese! (No offense meant for the scrupulous Chinese out there).
Sorry, wasn't being clear. If you have NO IDEA, then no, there's almost no chance you'd be convicted/probably isn't technically illegal. Most crimes require both some sort of injury, as well as guilty intent. Or at the very least, it would be taken strongly into consideration that you didn't know.
If you do know that it is counterfeit, though, then it is definitely straight up illegal. And since the guy in the thread was originally asking "Why don't you just use proxies?" he was implying intentionality. So that's what I was talking about.
Anyway. Huge difference between "This outcome, which is out of my control (WOTC going out of business or not), would be good/bad for me" versus "I am going to actively start faking things and being sketchy." Just commenting on how I would react passively, only.
It sounds like you are doing very succerssfully with your trades...from one standpoint. In my eyes you are either cheating people or starting with a lot of capital from the start.
Either you are funneling your junk into standard staples and then trading those bundles into eternals or and this is true for both scenarios, you simply had a TON of the money cards from standard anyway, ergo you can afford legacy anyways.
Well, I say, good for you. Cool story, bro. I, and many others cannot afford these eternal staples but I want to play deathblade just as much as you do.
My only option to afford these cards is the chinese.
Don't come with some holier than thou attitude and flame myself or my view on this.
Simply realize that this is happening.
Idk and idc if you went to college, but its basic economics.
Our player base is expanding rapidly and the number of staples is drying up. People seem to think I can just run watery grave as a direct substitute for underground sea when playing legacy. Maybe you will tell me next that evolving wilds is pretty much the same thing as polluted delta. Chance not.
I would like to know who feels the same way about these proxies as I do, send me a PM.
And props to the guy who said that maybe a kick in the jewels was what wotc needed to wake up and reprint.
Mimeoplasm, reanimator
Phelddagrif, superfriend/hugs
Edric, counter-target-player
Child of alara, Gods/Lands-Control
Titania, Timmy-combo
-Tiny Leaders-
Geist <under construction>
-Standard-
Esper Control
Actually. Its not illlegal to buy them for yourself but illegal to sell them.
Example: I own a business and a customer pays me with an obviously fake $100bill. If I accept it as payment I am not a criminal but they are.
To be a crime there needs to be proof of intent to resell the cards.
Tbh I would like to have a $0.25 jtms so I can paint it with acryllics and have a reallly cool version for my edh.
I would never risk painting a card worth $100 or more
Mimeoplasm, reanimator
Phelddagrif, superfriend/hugs
Edric, counter-target-player
Child of alara, Gods/Lands-Control
Titania, Timmy-combo
-Tiny Leaders-
Geist <under construction>
-Standard-
Esper Control
The price of cards are decided by the player's willing to purchase them.
Now, most legacy players who wouldn't be upset about cards dropping paid far far less for them many years ago. The people who want them but aren't willing to buy them want them to drop in price to be more affordable to them.
I've said it time and time again, if cards are too expensive for you, play casual only, or go play ascension.
I'm fine playing a janky deck because I can't get the cards, or going to a SCO and drafting all day because I can't enter. I'm fine not playing at all, walking around looking for trades so that maybe I can play next week, and between that I'm talking to friends I only see at those events.
If you think that counterfeit cards will somehow be good for the game, you're damn wrong. Wizards will have to make up the profit margin. If high quality counterfeit's become so regular that people are buying them over real cards, Wizards will raise the price of packs, then discontinue paper magic entirely.
Imagine $7 booster packs that aren't modern masters. That's what will happen, and people will buy them.
I do, and so do an insane ammount of peope in reddit, facebook, twitter. Why WotC would choose to remain blind to all these ****ing millions of dollars basically screaming "I could be yours if you made $5 shocklands, but I'd rather go to china if you keep allowing market cornering", I just cannot fathom. It's as if SCG's and other mass retailers' interests were more important to WotC than their own and LGS's.
This ammount of stupidity is a spat on the face of everyone who wanted to play Jund thanks to Modern Masters and instead got **** because SCG with it's massive pockets decided Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant should be MORE expensive because THEY could play for the cards.
If all the people you keep telling to **** off because they aren't ok with not playing at all like high and mighty you, did so, you'd be left with no game faster than if we all just started buying forgeries.
At least the people buying fakes to finally play the ****ing game would still contribute entry fees for tournaments.
I'd be interested in seeing the speculative stats on just how much money WOTC is losing for themselves by allowing the secondary market to take so much of their profits. Counterfeiters are merely the illegitimate side of the secondary market.
I think it's wrong, however, to say that SCG and similar retailers are the ones making money to Wizard's detriment. They're on record repeatedly saying that they wish that there was more product to sell (SCG understands the revolutionary business model of 'make things, sell them') through the removal of the reserve list, reprints, and more support for Legacy.
You can argue the secondary market has gotten out of hand with the SCGs of the world, but Magic: the Gathering is not a cheap hobby, nor has it ever been.
k that might be a problem now lol
EDH: Xenagos, God of Revels.
Nope, it looks like they just couldn't keep up with the orders:
In fact, I agree with everything that you said here. However, Crimeo said that he would be fine if Hasbro went out of business if it meant that he would get cheap cards. That's what I was disagreeing with. I do not want the status quo. I stayed out of Standard because it would cost too much money to maintain, I can't get into Legacy because it costs too much, and I am quitting paper Magic altogether because I can't afford it. I want Modern cards to be cheaper. I want reprints. I wish that speculators didn't exist. But making WotC go out business is not how to achieve that. That is what I was arguing about, not the goal, but the process.
You still don't get it. You want all tournaments to end, no new cards to be printed, and everyone at WotC to lose their jobs just so casual players can afford Goyfs. That is the most selfish thing that I've ever heard on these forums, and I have heard people say that Wizards should never reprints cards from before Modern in Standard because it changes Modern. If casual players can't afford the best cards, well that is too bad for them. But the average casual player wouldn't want thousands of people to lose their jobs just so they can afford that Jace, the Mind Sculptor.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
LOL wow. This is just absolutely ridiculous. Think of how much money Wizards would make if they were to directly sell Tarmogoyfs for $20. They would gain a lot more revenue and cut out all the bull**** that is the secondary market and fake cards.
I would do Snapcaster for sphinx, or sphinx for Snapcaster. I would do that trade both ways. Sphinx is more liquid than Snapcaster--it's standard legal. Snapcaster has a higher price Threshhold, but sphinx is at a higher price now. It's not hard to trade a staple like sphinx revelation. And Snapcaster's an amazing card, the reason my group once had two playsets of foils and 7 non foils at the same time. (Currently we have a set of foils and 3 non foils--We'll have to complete the non foil set soon if it ever comes up--but it's not a priority.)
The reason I explain this is because the guy I traded the Tezzeret to owned a store. You know what sells well? Hot new foil planeswalkers. You know what doesn't sell well? Legacy staples.
I know a lot of people who play, collect, and trade magic. EDH players, PTQ grinders, floor traders, and store owners. It all comes down to 'get this person what they want to get what another person wants, to get what I want.' At the end of the day, there are few people that I've ever ripped off. You can ask the kid I forced to take a shockland because he pulled out 10 $1 or less rares and said it was worth his thoughtseize.
Goyf's high price tag is so high because people are buying it at that price , if they weren't, then it would drop in price, which is basic economics.
You're right, there are a lot of people playing this game, which is why it's so expensive to play it, because people are paying money to buy the cards.
Am I good at trading? Sure. I'm not the best. Sometimes I lose money, sometimes those cards I've lost money on spike the next week and I made a lot of profit off of a trade. But the fact is, is that I actually go out and look for trades.
My group started with boxes, opening random packs and making a trade binder. You're probably assuming something along the lines of multiple cases, which just isn't true. Maybe $3-400 worth of boxes started the collection. The last collection we had was started with a very lucky double JTMS box of worldwake. I can guarantee that my group has likely spent less money on cards for this game than 90% of the members of this forum, and that I'm part of a collection that's far more impressive than theirs as well. It's not impossible to trade, but you have to know what you're doing and the people you're trading with. I do. I know people who play this game, I have friends who only want 'foil Korean blah blah blah' or who only want 'non foil EDH staples', and the key to this is moving these cards around so that everyone is happy.
I'm sorry you can't afford to play this game. I make minimum wage, carefully watch what I spend my money on, and spend as close to nothing on this game as I possibly can. And I'm pretty close to being able to play legacy. I have duals, mindsculptors, FoWs, expensive ass foils, and I spent nothing on them other than having to, oh my god, meet new people, hang out with friends, and spend a couple hours driving to different stores/ tournaments.
You're upset with me because I'm saying counterfeit cards are bad for magic? I honestly think you are not only condoning, but stating that you plan to purchase and use counterfeit magic cards 'because **** WoTC', and sir, if that is the case, you are far worse for the game of Magic than your mental fiction of the evils of collectors ever could be.
I started playing at age 8 in 1994. I managed it as a hobby on my meager allowance. Revised and The Dark were the first sets I played with.
I am 28 now. I have a substantial collection but own no jtms no goyf no onslought fetches. Oh yeah, and no dual lands (revised). They used to be $5 dollars at channel fireball, which acually used to be called superstars of sports and be literally across the street from my house I grew up in in cupertino, ca. My friend and I would walk past it every day coming home from school. Or maybe we would stop in and comment how we couldn't believe a land card was $5. Black lotus was by far the most expensive card at $300.
I even recall the we cracked our first pack of exodus and pulled a recurring nightmare ($1) I told him it wasn't a very good card and we moved on with our lives.
The reason I share this is because we all know that at its heart this is a game. Could you imagine having to shell out over $1000 for chess pieces to go to a tournament in order to have any chance of placing before even considering entry fees.
Mark my words, a storm is coming.
:wizard:wizards:wizard: should look at this as an opportunity. There are no grounds under which they could be sued by announcing the removal of the reserve list
Mimeoplasm, reanimator
Phelddagrif, superfriend/hugs
Edric, counter-target-player
Child of alara, Gods/Lands-Control
Titania, Timmy-combo
-Tiny Leaders-
Geist <under construction>
-Standard-
Esper Control
Value isn't everything. Trades only happen because both parties are getting what they want. It's also what buylists are for. I traded my standard and modern staples into Channel Fireball and built RUG delver for legacy. I'm happy because I'm getting cards I want, and CFB is happy because they are making money. They can turn around and sell those cards I sent them for full value, because they are a store. But it's very hard for me to trade standard and modern cards at full value to get legacy cards.
And even if it wasn't for legacy, I have given up a few dollars in value to get cards I wanted. Because it's not worth my time to go hunting down a card in person just so I can get equal value for my cards.
People trading standard staples for legacy staples happens quite often. I don't play black in legacy so I traded a foil Hymn to Tourach for some standard stuff. And I got that foil Hymn for a foil CFB token, that I got for free.
I'm not selling counterfeit cards, dude. I am WATCHING as WOTC acts in a way that might cause its employees to maybe lose their jobs if they keep it up. It's neither my doing nor would I prefer that to happen.
As I repeatedly said, the best outcome of all would be for WOTC to act intelligently and make reprints. Then we would have cheap cards and tournaments and nobody would lose their job and the criminals would stop.
If they refuse to do so, then any jobs that may be lost are on their heads. I am simply saying that the result wouldn't be so bad for me if it came to that. But an even better outcome for me would be them reprinting these things themselves.
Seriously, why are you worrying over Hasbro/Wotc?
1) Hasbro/Wotc have professionals, being paid thousands monthly to do what you are doing now. Profit watching and answering to shareholders..
2) Do you even know how big and powerful Hasbro/Wotc (maybe not Wotc) is? Even if all the card shops closed down, SCGs and such closed down and Wotc closed down, Hasbro will only lose a percentage of their annual 'pie'.
Want to talk about copyrights wars? Look at the case study of Samsung vs Apple? Want to see how big corporations are resilient to losses? See Sony vs Public.
I agree with you on what the best outcome would be. I just think that the worst outcome would not be people still needing to pay a lot of money for cards. The worst outcome would be the end of WotC, MTGO, sanctioned tournaments, new cards, and the entire plot.
1) Good point. It was just brought up before that if the market on singles crashed, people wouldn't buy packs, Magic would become unprofitable, and the game would die. Crimeo said that that would be better than having to pay ridiculous amounts of money for cards. So we are arguing about what the worst-case scenario is.
2) If WotC closed down, Magic would die, even if Hasbro was still around. That is what I am worried about as the worst-case scenario.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.