OR how about I still play with my nice looking card and you shuffle them without destroying them? Ive played with many of my decks for years and they are as fresh as the day I bought the cards. You do not have to hurt any cards to shuffle them. My scalding tarns that ive used extensively from from packs of zendikar when the set was new look like they just came out of the packs despite years of play.
I mean, really, this mentality of "Oh, you're playing with them, expect them to get worn" is starting to piss me off.
Yes, we expect them to get used. We don't expect them to be subject to shuffling methods that can damage them, or carelessness [or intentional negligence]. This isn't an all or nothing, and a lot of people have stated, you can shuffle without running the risk of hurting somebody's cards, or whatnot.
I mean, really, this mentality of "Oh, you're playing with them, expect them to get worn" is starting to piss me off.
The problem is some people like to use their tough ass or "I'm so cool" attitude and think people don't actually despise them.
I'm pretty positive it's people like this that account for people here and there not even going to tournaments. (Actually, people say all the time they refuse to go to certain game stores because of things like this.)
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If your deck is 60 cards then you're playing with the best possible odds. 61? Probably won't alter your odds too much but we all know that 96% pure meth won't cut it next to Heisenberg's 99%.
I find no reason to shuffle my opponents' decks provided I see they shuffle it properly, which almost everybody does. The only time I shuffle is I suspect somebody is doing something shady. I've done that only a couple of times. I see no reason to shuffle my opponents' decks for something like FNM.
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Definitely tell your opponent to stop if he even begins to look like he's riffle-shuffle. You can also ask the judges to shuffle in lieu of your opponent, just don't do this all the time.
I haven't played in any events where my deck was shuffled as y'all are describing but is it against the rules at REL events to use a proxy deck. You show the judges the actual cards and then you just use land cards to represent what you own but don't want to play with.
No...proxy decks are illegal. Even if you can prove you own the cards. Because Magic is awesomely intelligent that way. You'd think it would be fine if you:
(1) Could prove you owned the appropriate number of the cards needed & had them with you at the tournament.
(2) Had reasonably well made proxies (no writing on Plains with a Sharpie - actual well printed or pasted copies only).
You solve your whole shuffling hurtses my cardz issues people have.
Again...Magic is awesome that way though by not allowing proxies AND having a Reserve List.
I nearly always watch my opponent shuffle his/her cards, and will only do so in methods that they also used themselves. Even then, I'll ask if it's okay to rifle. I don't mind if people do it to my cards(provided they aren't a dolt), but I'll respect your decisions as a card owner to choose how I handle your cards.
I haven't played in any events where my deck was shuffled as y'all are describing but is it against the rules at REL events to use a proxy deck. You show the judges the actual cards and then you just use land cards to represent what you own but don't want to play with.
Actually, if a card is damaged DURING a tournament, the Head Judge is allowed to issue a proxy that is allowed to be used for that tournament only. That is up to the head judge though.
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If your deck is 60 cards then you're playing with the best possible odds. 61? Probably won't alter your odds too much but we all know that 96% pure meth won't cut it next to Heisenberg's 99%.
Just saying around this area you go breaking someones sleeves there will be an altercation between you and your opponent. You would buy me new sleeves and replace any damaged cards. There is absolutely no reason to shuffle hard enough to split sleeves
Altercations over breaking ultra pro sleeves? Really?
I have literally never seen anyone get upset over there crummy ultra pros crumbling to a regular shuffle in 10+ years of competitive magic. (At least since the quality of them went wayyy down anyways)
Buying cheap ultra pro sleeves and expecting them to not get busted in a tournament is like throwing a stack of tarmogoyfs in the air and expecting nobody to take them.
I am pretty sure you can split an ultra pro sleeve by calling it names so to expect opponents to replace ultra pros is completely absurd. You do not have to come anywhere close to damaging a card to split an ultra pro.
You would literally be "that guy" if you demanded this at an REL event.
Anyone I know who buys ultra pros does it for a single tournament and fully expects that set of sleeves to probably not survive the day. If your lucky, you might get 2 big events out of your ultra pro sleeves but this is pretty rare.
I wouldn't allow anyone to touch my deck besides cutting from that point forward. It was a tournament.
And now you're the one that's in the wrong and violating tournament policy. You can ask a judge to come over and witness the cut, you can ever stop a player that you feel is handling your deck wrong and call a judge over to assist. The thing you can't do is refuse to allow people to shuffle your deck as the cut if they want to.
I question the necessity to do anything other than cut. The deck has already been shuffled, you see it done, cutting a deck as a practice exists to make sure someone has not somehow stacked the top of the deck despite the shuffle and is more then enough for me.
Because good cheaters can stack the deck right in front of you and you'll never know it. I *watched* a friend shuffle a deck of playing cards, he TOLD me he was stacking the deck... I never saw it.
To those of you who just don't care about damaging the cards of others and use it to put your opponent "on tilt". Be aware that you are one of the biggest reasons I don't go to events with any kind of prize. Put yourself in the shoes of the other person, or even better into the shoes of a parent who's child is the victim of such behavior. I'm sure a few of you would "beat down" anyone who did that to your kid but see no problem doing it to other players. If you don't see a problem with that then I don't know what else to say.
Waaaay back in the day not only were sleeves not commonplace, DCI rules said you could force your opponent to desleeve their deck. I was at a type 1 tournament (that's vintage to you new players), and a guy told me that his whole strategy was to make his opponents desleeve and then rough shuffle their deck unless they conceeded. When some people threatened him with a severe beating in the parking lot if they caught him doing that, he changed his mind. And that was when an unlimited Lotus was only $150 - $200.
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Really? That's what you consider the solution to be? We live in an age where tier 1 standard decks are worth about the same as my first car and tier 1 legacy decks can be worth more than my first car, its insurance and tax.
Basically this solution boils down to "don't play tournaments if you have a good deck" at which point, you have to ask what the point in having a good deck is?
That's not what I'm saying, but if you want to over-react and claim that, then whatever.
If you're playing with cards in a tournament, you run the risk of them being damaged. If you're *insanely* concerned about that, don't play with them. That's what I'm saying. That's why many vintage tournaments allow proxies. Not just to allow people that don't have those cards to play, but to allow those that do have them to maintain the condition of said cards.
If you use a valuable card in an event, there's a chance that it's going to get damaged. Take every precaution you can within the rules. For example, I always watch how the person across from me shuffles their deck before I present mine for the cut. If I notice that they abuse their cards, I call a judge over to assist. I've counselled younger players on how they abuse cards.
So what I'm saying is that there are steps you can and should take to make sure your cards have better survivability, but you always run the risk of damage.
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Really? That's what you consider the solution to be? We live in an age where tier 1 standard decks are worth about the same as my first car and tier 1 legacy decks can be worth more than my first car, its insurance and tax.
Basically this solution boils down to "don't play tournaments if you have a good deck" at which point, you have to ask what the point in having a good deck is?
Play them with top loaders, quadruple sleeve them
I do that with my EDH deck, so dont complain about the size
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I do that with my EDH deck, so dont complain about the size
You can't possibly be serious - you have a 100-card deck and every card is in a top-loader? The deck must be 4 feet tall. How could even shuffle such a monstrosity?
I always either just cut my opponents deck a couple times or hold it in my hand and do it where you pull some up and reinsert them back into the deck gently. I would hope my opponents would take the same care with my own cards.
You can't possibly be serious - you have a 100-card deck and every card is in a top-loader? The deck must be 4 feet tall. How could even shuffle such a monstrosity?
it would be well under a foot, and with practice. I use to shuffle a top loadered vintage deck because the value was starting to get up there, and could do so fine after a couple weeks. (We were alsoplayimg with 13 proxies and they hid the extra thickness if a proxy slip over a card.
Bridge shuffling is against the rules? Where? I always bridge shuffle my opponent's deck, and I play quite a bit of Legacy.
Magic cards are supposed to be able to pass the bend test. If your cards are being damaged by a bridge shuffle, their authenticity is in doubt.
I'd snap your hands off your wrists if you bridge shuffled my magic cards. That crap is for blackjack dealers and poker players. Riffle shuffle carefully, side shuffle etc is good enough.
I'd snap your hands off your wrists if you bridge shuffled my magic cards. That crap is for blackjack dealers and poker players. Riffle shuffle carefully, side shuffle etc is good enough.
Advocating violence isn't going to be tolerated in this thread. Seriously, stop with the "I'd break his arm" thing, it doesn't fly here.
On Youtube, find one of the poker dealer training videos that shows how they shuffle. The standard corner-riffle technique they teach also works for sleeved cards and with a little practice, can be done with no chance of damage or split sleeves. The technique doesn't involve bridge shuffles (needless damage + reveals faces of cards) & can easily be done in a way that reveals nothing to either player & doesn't bend or damage cards.
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I didn't say I have to ruin your cards in order to sufficiently randomize your cards. Part of the game is the requirement to randomize cards. This involves shuffling to some extent. The most sufficient and best method of randomization involves riffle shuffling.
A good mash shuffle is exactly the same as a riffle shuffle. There is literally no difference. Not that I have a problem with people riffle shuffling my cards either as long as they are doing it well. Sleeves split, it happens...last time I was playing in tournaments I made a habit of bringing extras with me. If I am at a tournament I will always shuffle (mash) my opponent's deck- I find it best practice to treat each opponent with the same standard of caution.
Bridging: This does nothing to randomize cards, so I will ask you not to do it. Riffle and mash all you want.
Pile "shuffling": If you do this to my cards then expect a call of the judge. It does not randomize the cards at all, and it takes far too much time. If you do it to your cards I can't stop you, but if I present my deck to you and you start making piles I will ask the judge to shuffle the deck.
The point of a pile shuffle on your opponent isn't for randomization. As all good tournament players will tell you it's for deck counting your opponent. Free wins for a presentation error of 59 cards is free wins! That's why people pile shuffle your deck.
I personally pile shuffle my deck once for a count and than mash and riffle a few times. Riffling is faster and more efficient than mash shuffling...but I'd agree they both work well for randomization. Bridging is the back side of a good riffle. If you know how to shuffle properly it doesn't hurt the cards.
I play poker at least once a week at my apartment and you'd be amazed how long a crappy $3 Bicycle deck will last with shuffling before any noticeable wear. You pretty much have to riffle and bridge them since you can't mash without sleeves.
Magic cards are much better quality than those. So if you're offended by bridging you should be offended by riffling too...since both of them are part of the same shuffling technique.
Bridging is the back side of a good riffle. If you know how to shuffle properly it doesn't hurt the cards.
All bridging does is stack cards that you just rifled, and you can do that without bridging so why run the risk of damaging cards. I will let my opponent do what needs to be done to randomize my cards, but anything else I will question.
I play poker at least once a week at my apartment and you'd be amazed how long a crappy $3 Bicycle deck will last with shuffling before any noticeable wear. You pretty much have to riffle and bridge them since you can't mash without sleeves.
Magic cards are much better quality than those. So if you're offended by bridging you should be offended by riffling too...since both of them are part of the same shuffling technique.
Playing cards have more plastic in the coating so they can handle a lot more abuse, even if they are thinner.
Magic cards are much better quality than those. So if you're offended by bridging you should be offended by riffling too...since both of them are part of the same shuffling technique.
Better quality yes, but not immune to damage from bending. Both riffling and bridging do damage to the card, and over time it builds up, and can cause serious loss in value on some cards (look at the difference between a NM ans a heavily played dual land to see)
Also bridging is not a necessary part of riffling, it is something that people do because of how it looks, not because they need to, once the cards are interleaved you can easily slide them together with no additional damage. and people do care, but you can riffle with less damage and if you know what you are doing a riffle can be done that only does damage to the sleeve not the card. Also many people do not riffle because it damages their own cards.
I will clarify this, I am not advocating violence here. I am however, pointing out that the world isn't such a nice place, and breaking/damaging other peoples property can be dangerous. If you are going to be mr tough guy, make sure your opponent isnt the kind of person that will rough your face up. Hell 3 of the players in my personal play group learned magic behind bars, and one of those 3 has several amateur MMA wins to his name. I personally had to calm him down when our opponent at a 2hg match was shuffling his deck like an *******. You never know your opponent, treat them how you want them to treat you.
I mean, really, this mentality of "Oh, you're playing with them, expect them to get worn" is starting to piss me off.
Yes, we expect them to get used. We don't expect them to be subject to shuffling methods that can damage them, or carelessness [or intentional negligence]. This isn't an all or nothing, and a lot of people have stated, you can shuffle without running the risk of hurting somebody's cards, or whatnot.
The problem is some people like to use their tough ass or "I'm so cool" attitude and think people don't actually despise them.
I'm pretty positive it's people like this that account for people here and there not even going to tournaments. (Actually, people say all the time they refuse to go to certain game stores because of things like this.)
WUBGR - Enchantment Realms - WUBGR
An all-enchantment EDH deck: 0 creatures, 0 artifacts, 0 instants and sorceries.
GBUWR - The Necrotic Teenager and its 1,000,000 Combos - GBUWR
A deck built around Necrotic Ooze and its many friends.
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(1) Could prove you owned the appropriate number of the cards needed & had them with you at the tournament.
(2) Had reasonably well made proxies (no writing on Plains with a Sharpie - actual well printed or pasted copies only).
You solve your whole shuffling hurtses my cardz issues people have.
Again...Magic is awesome that way though by not allowing proxies AND having a Reserve List.
Actually, if a card is damaged DURING a tournament, the Head Judge is allowed to issue a proxy that is allowed to be used for that tournament only. That is up to the head judge though.
Altercations over breaking ultra pro sleeves? Really?
I have literally never seen anyone get upset over there crummy ultra pros crumbling to a regular shuffle in 10+ years of competitive magic. (At least since the quality of them went wayyy down anyways)
Buying cheap ultra pro sleeves and expecting them to not get busted in a tournament is like throwing a stack of tarmogoyfs in the air and expecting nobody to take them.
I am pretty sure you can split an ultra pro sleeve by calling it names so to expect opponents to replace ultra pros is completely absurd. You do not have to come anywhere close to damaging a card to split an ultra pro.
You would literally be "that guy" if you demanded this at an REL event.
Anyone I know who buys ultra pros does it for a single tournament and fully expects that set of sleeves to probably not survive the day. If your lucky, you might get 2 big events out of your ultra pro sleeves but this is pretty rare.
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And now you're the one that's in the wrong and violating tournament policy. You can ask a judge to come over and witness the cut, you can ever stop a player that you feel is handling your deck wrong and call a judge over to assist. The thing you can't do is refuse to allow people to shuffle your deck as the cut if they want to.
Because good cheaters can stack the deck right in front of you and you'll never know it. I *watched* a friend shuffle a deck of playing cards, he TOLD me he was stacking the deck... I never saw it.
Waaaay back in the day not only were sleeves not commonplace, DCI rules said you could force your opponent to desleeve their deck. I was at a type 1 tournament (that's vintage to you new players), and a guy told me that his whole strategy was to make his opponents desleeve and then rough shuffle their deck unless they conceeded. When some people threatened him with a severe beating in the parking lot if they caught him doing that, he changed his mind. And that was when an unlimited Lotus was only $150 - $200.
That's not what I'm saying, but if you want to over-react and claim that, then whatever.
If you're playing with cards in a tournament, you run the risk of them being damaged. If you're *insanely* concerned about that, don't play with them. That's what I'm saying. That's why many vintage tournaments allow proxies. Not just to allow people that don't have those cards to play, but to allow those that do have them to maintain the condition of said cards.
If you use a valuable card in an event, there's a chance that it's going to get damaged. Take every precaution you can within the rules. For example, I always watch how the person across from me shuffles their deck before I present mine for the cut. If I notice that they abuse their cards, I call a judge over to assist. I've counselled younger players on how they abuse cards.
So what I'm saying is that there are steps you can and should take to make sure your cards have better survivability, but you always run the risk of damage.
Play them with top loaders, quadruple sleeve them
I do that with my EDH deck, so dont complain about the size
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You can't possibly be serious - you have a 100-card deck and every card is in a top-loader? The deck must be 4 feet tall. How could even shuffle such a monstrosity?
Standard
WBGWBGABZAN AGGROWBGWBG
I'd snap your hands off your wrists if you bridge shuffled my magic cards. That crap is for blackjack dealers and poker players. Riffle shuffle carefully, side shuffle etc is good enough.
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Advocating violence isn't going to be tolerated in this thread. Seriously, stop with the "I'd break his arm" thing, it doesn't fly here.
On Youtube, find one of the poker dealer training videos that shows how they shuffle. The standard corner-riffle technique they teach also works for sleeved cards and with a little practice, can be done with no chance of damage or split sleeves. The technique doesn't involve bridge shuffles (needless damage + reveals faces of cards) & can easily be done in a way that reveals nothing to either player & doesn't bend or damage cards.
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Bridging: This does nothing to randomize cards, so I will ask you not to do it. Riffle and mash all you want.
Pile "shuffling": If you do this to my cards then expect a call of the judge. It does not randomize the cards at all, and it takes far too much time. If you do it to your cards I can't stop you, but if I present my deck to you and you start making piles I will ask the judge to shuffle the deck.
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FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
I personally pile shuffle my deck once for a count and than mash and riffle a few times. Riffling is faster and more efficient than mash shuffling...but I'd agree they both work well for randomization. Bridging is the back side of a good riffle. If you know how to shuffle properly it doesn't hurt the cards.
I play poker at least once a week at my apartment and you'd be amazed how long a crappy $3 Bicycle deck will last with shuffling before any noticeable wear. You pretty much have to riffle and bridge them since you can't mash without sleeves.
Magic cards are much better quality than those. So if you're offended by bridging you should be offended by riffling too...since both of them are part of the same shuffling technique.
Playing cards have more plastic in the coating so they can handle a lot more abuse, even if they are thinner.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Better quality yes, but not immune to damage from bending. Both riffling and bridging do damage to the card, and over time it builds up, and can cause serious loss in value on some cards (look at the difference between a NM ans a heavily played dual land to see)
Also bridging is not a necessary part of riffling, it is something that people do because of how it looks, not because they need to, once the cards are interleaved you can easily slide them together with no additional damage. and people do care, but you can riffle with less damage and if you know what you are doing a riffle can be done that only does damage to the sleeve not the card. Also many people do not riffle because it damages their own cards.