Subject says it all. Played against someone who must have watched pro tour videos and thought it was cool to shuffle your opponents deck so he proceeded to rip 4 of my card protectors and bend a desecration demon in the process. If you don't know how to hand shuffle, then just cut.
Subject says it all. Played against someone who must have watched pro tour videos and thought it was cool to shuffle your opponents deck so he proceeded to rip 4 of my card protectors and bend a desecration demon in the process. If you don't know how to hand shuffle, then just cut.
I'm so afraid to shuffle somebody else cards. I usually just cut the deck into 2-4 parts, then put it back in a different order. If it's somebody I really trust, I do the ole tap the top of the deck thing.
There isn't an explicit sanction for this in the MTR, but in Section 3.9: Shuffling, it notes:
Quote from Magic Tournament Rules »
Once the deck is randomized, it must be presented to an opponent. By this action, players state that their decks are legal and randomized. The opponent may then shuffle it additionally. Cards and sleeves must not be in danger of being damaged during this process.
It's up to the judge's discretion as to whether it was an accident or intentional and what, if anything, to do at this point. If the card is damaged to the point that it would be considered marked, the Head Judge would be able to create a proxy for that player to use for the remainder of the tournament if he or she didn't have an extra copy with them that could be swapped in.
Didn't get a dime for it. Player claimed sleeves were old so it wasn't his fault and TO wasn't there to witness it and couldn't make a ruling. I showed him that my sleeves were in fact brand new and he still didn't want to make a decision. There is now a crease in the top left corner of the demon and I had to take 4 sleeves from my sideboard to complete the tournament. I wouldn't allow anyone to touch my deck besides cutting from that point forward. It was a tournament.
Playing at competitive/professional REL the majority of the time I'm in the habit of always shuffling my opponent's decks.
I occasionally split my opponent's sleeves, usually because people complain about riffling, so the only real way to do it is mash-shuffling, which tends to break edges with cheaper sleeves like ultra pros or pretty much any sleeve with a picture-back.
I VERY rarely split my own sleeves, so obviously my technique works, but I've split several sleeves with a single mash before just because they were poorly produced. Sometimes you even get bad batches of dragon shields that are very prone to splitting.
Unless you're well used to it, shuffling is actually pretty difficult to do. Unsleeved, it damages the cards, sleeved, the cards end up pointing in opposite directions so that you get 4 or 5 that are right side up and a half a dozen that are upside down.
Unsleeved, it damages the cards, sleeved, the cards end up pointing in opposite directions so that you get 4 or 5 that are right side up and a half a dozen that are upside down.
Uh what? Don't spin one of the sides around before shuffling, dude...
Cut, slide one of the halves over without rotating it at all, and then bridge the two halves together just like that, and they will all be pointing the same way when you're done. You should be riffling the tops of one half next to the bottoms of the other.
If you have bad sleeves that are too difficult to shuffle with your thumbs on the tops of them, then get better sleeves. OR shuffle the bottoms together, but then spin one half around before pushing them all together as one stack, so that everything is pointed the same way again (this is really inelegant and dumb looking though, so the best solution would be get better sleeves or learn to flutter them with your thumb on the top anyway)
Ending up with cards pointing in two different directions is not only annoying, but is also not a fair shuffle, since you are effectively "marking" your cards. If you for instance knew that one card was in one half of the deck, you now know whether the top of your library is that card or not based on whether it is upside down. BAD / Should get you in trouble in any sort of tournament.
I personally just can't stand when an opponent shuffles my deck, especially in a small-time tourney. Cutting seems like a gentlemanly formality to me, but shuffling seems to just blatantly say "I don't trust you". Sure, strangers aren't expected to trust other strangers, but you don't see them coming out and saying it. I don't count my bank withdrawal in front of the teller who just counted it out in front of me. If someone is clearly having trouble shuffling I'll sometimes shuffle and let them know why, but you still want to shuffle my deck after you just saw me pile shuffle twice with several riffles and hand-over-hands in between? C'mon.
And I actually had an opponent take my NO RUG Legacy deck and almost bridge shuffle it. I had to physically intervene and stop him. Seriously? Bridge shuffling in Legacy? My loud exclamation of "UMM.. what the $%^& are you doing??" caused the judge to come over. I explained the situation, and the judge told the guy sternly to not shuffle peoples' cards like that. Unbelievable.
Bridge shuffling is against the rules? Where? I always bridge shuffle my opponent's deck, and I play quite a bit of Legacy.
Magic cards are supposed to be able to pass the bend test. If your cards are being damaged by a bridge shuffle, their authenticity is in doubt.
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I always just cut. Even in tournaments. Sometimes the judges sees it and shuffles the opponents deck for me.
Also I am very bad at shuffling. Maybe because I'm scared to damage the cards? I don't know. I've always been bad at it, doesn't matter which card game.
I question the necessity to do anything other than cut. The deck has already been shuffled, you see it done, cutting a deck as a practice exists to make sure someone has not somehow stacked the top of the deck despite the shuffle and is more then enough for me.
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I don't think some people here know what a riffle or bridge is. Looking at how people shuffle normal cards, when they split the deck in half and slap 'em down so the cards are interleaved, that's the riffle. When they take the interleaved pile that's only overlapping half of each side, and bend them the other direction so they fly into a coherent pile, that's a bridge.
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Standard: BG The Rock GB UW Control WU
EDH: RBU Nekusar UBR
Modern: UNBDU
Didn't get a dime for it. Player claimed sleeves were old so it wasn't his fault and TO wasn't there to witness it and couldn't make a ruling. I showed him that my sleeves were in fact brand new and he still didn't want to make a decision. There is now a crease in the top left corner of the demon and I had to take 4 sleeves from my sideboard to complete the tournament. I wouldn't allow anyone to touch my deck besides cutting from that point forward. It was a tournament.
I hope you were playing thoughtseize or some other card that let you directly handle his cards for some petty revenge.
I don't think some people here know what a riffle or bridge is. Looking at how people shuffle normal cards, when they split the deck in half and slap 'em down so the cards are interleaved, that's the riffle. When they take the interleaved pile that's only overlapping half of each side, and bend them the other direction so they fly into a coherent pile, that's a bridge.
Dunno about other people, but I meant to say bridge, as I was referring to shuffling one's own deck, and that's what I would do, because I play with like $1 or less cards usually, not $10 cards.
If I were shuffling an opponent's deck, I would probably just riffle though and then awkwardly push them together, unless I knew they werent' worth much (like pauper format)
Didn't get a dime for it. Player claimed sleeves were old so it wasn't his fault and TO wasn't there to witness it and couldn't make a ruling. I showed him that my sleeves were in fact brand new and he still didn't want to make a decision. There is now a crease in the top left corner of the demon and I had to take 4 sleeves from my sideboard to complete the tournament. I wouldn't allow anyone to touch my deck besides cutting from that point forward. It was a tournament.
If it was a tournament there was a judge, if the judge was present why didn't you call a judge and ask him to shuffle it?
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From Supernatural:
Sam: a demon summoning spell ? why?
Lucifer: to summon a demon (auto censorship here)
====
The Wizard of Oz: A juvenile delinquent runs away from home, kills the first person she meets in a foreign land, robs her corpse, then promptly forms a gang with three complete strangers in order to kill again.
====
Bridge shuffling is against the rules? Where? I always bridge shuffle my opponent's deck, and I play quite a bit of Legacy.
Magic cards are supposed to be able to pass the bend test. If your cards are being damaged by a bridge shuffle, their authenticity is in doubt.
The bend test still does some damage to the card, they are just tough enough that a bend test every now and then does not do any noticable dammage. Constantly bridgeing a deck WILL deal noticable damage the cards over time. And not every older card is in the best condition to begin with due to things like 20 yeard of wear and tear... To the point that real cards will can fail the bend test if they have been tested or bridged too many times.
A deck of new cards can be bridged with little dammage, a deck filled with duals, FoW's and other over-priced cardboard can be noticably damages by bridging, and the rules clearly state that you are NOT to interntionally damage your opponents cards, and bridging your opponents deck DOES cause dammage.
I almost always shuffle my opponents decks, especially if they are a newer player because:
1) They almost never properly randomize there deck (regular shuffle twice, mana weave etc.)
2) Some people get tilted when people shuffle there deck even though its a basic rule of competitive magical cardboard.
I just do the regular sleeve shuffle. Anyone who's played the game for a decent amount of time knows ultra pro's will split like crazy so you should not feel bad if you bust your opponents ultra pro sleeves.
But please, don't riffle your opponents deck. Even if your an expert shuffler never damage cards blah blah etc. people just feel more comfortable if you are gentle to their decks. Riffling your opponents deck is probably one of the fastest ways to make enemies in MTG.
First of all, if you don't want sleeves tearing don't purchase cheap sleeves. Remember you get what you paid for. I prefer Dragon Shields and they are amazing. I have had my pink DS for 2+ years on my EDH decks and some are starting to rip and split. I shuffle my decks the same way I shuffle my opponents, HARD. I have split their sleeves while shuffling. It is not my problem it is theirs.
Secondly, Desecration demon should not be a $10 rare. It was a trash rare a couple months prior to rotation then found a deck. After rotation the card will be worth 10 cents again so don't be angry that a card which is not an investment got "played." They are meant to be shuffled and played in a game.
First of all, if you don't want sleeves tearing don't purchase cheap sleeves. Remember you get what you paid for. I prefer Dragon Shields and they are amazing. I have had my pink DS for 2+ years on my EDH decks and some are starting to rip and split. I shuffle my decks the same way I shuffle my opponents, HARD. I have split their sleeves while shuffling. It is not my problem it is theirs.
Secondly, Desecration demon should not be a $10 rare. It was a trash rare a couple months prior to rotation then found a deck. After rotation the card will be worth 10 cents again so don't be angry that a card which is not an investment got "played." They are meant to be shuffled and played in a game.
It was only a trash-rare because of cards like Midnight Haunting and Lingering Souls that would keep it tapped for most of the game. Once those rotated, it became worth playing. And it found several decks, not just 1.
Anyways, I riffle shuffle my opponents' decks all the time. If they complain about it or call a judge over, I ask for proof that I am in fact damaging their cards, and when they mention that I am bending them, I always bring up the bend test, and state that I am not even close to bending them in half, and that the sleeves are in fact undamaged. Remember, the burden of proof is on them.
And CorruptDictator, just because you see them shuffle does not mean their deck has been randomized. If they pile shuffle and then do a few mash shuffles or overhand shuffles, it is in no way randomized. Look for the shuffling primer in one of the other sections for more information.
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First of all, if you don't want sleeves tearing don't purchase cheap sleeves. Remember you get what you paid for. I prefer Dragon Shields and they are amazing. I have had my pink DS for 2+ years on my EDH decks and some are starting to rip and split. I shuffle my decks the same way I shuffle my opponents, HARD. I have split their sleeves while shuffling. It is not my problem it is theirs.
Secondly, Desecration demon should not be a $10 rare. It was a trash rare a couple months prior to rotation then found a deck. After rotation the card will be worth 10 cents again so don't be angry that a card which is not an investment got "played." They are meant to be shuffled and played in a game.
These were brand new silver dragon shields that were ripped. Again, this thread is addressing people who don't know how to shuffle. If you are a master shuffler and do no damage, I never had an issue with that. If you are purposely shuffling their deck hard to rip sleeves, that is against the rules as stated earlier in this thread. Also, it's a lame move on your end for trying to damage other people's items.
As far as value, it IS worth $10. I have no interest in the future value or investment of a card in a tcg. I do have interest in current trade value if I get tired of playing a deck. Players worth their salt will know what a crease does to the value of a card.
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Did you make him pay for the damage?
Though seriously it does not take much to shuffle properly, just do not do any fancy tricks as those take skill to do without damaging the cards.
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It's up to the judge's discretion as to whether it was an accident or intentional and what, if anything, to do at this point. If the card is damaged to the point that it would be considered marked, the Head Judge would be able to create a proxy for that player to use for the remainder of the tournament if he or she didn't have an extra copy with them that could be swapped in.
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I occasionally split my opponent's sleeves, usually because people complain about riffling, so the only real way to do it is mash-shuffling, which tends to break edges with cheaper sleeves like ultra pros or pretty much any sleeve with a picture-back.
I VERY rarely split my own sleeves, so obviously my technique works, but I've split several sleeves with a single mash before just because they were poorly produced. Sometimes you even get bad batches of dragon shields that are very prone to splitting.
Sounds like an isolated incident to me.
At Competitive or Professional REL, you're actually required to shuffle your opponent's deck.
You are allowed to request that a judge shuffles your deck instead of your opponent, although a judge is not required to honor this request.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Uh what? Don't spin one of the sides around before shuffling, dude...
Cut, slide one of the halves over without rotating it at all, and then bridge the two halves together just like that, and they will all be pointing the same way when you're done. You should be riffling the tops of one half next to the bottoms of the other.
If you have bad sleeves that are too difficult to shuffle with your thumbs on the tops of them, then get better sleeves. OR shuffle the bottoms together, but then spin one half around before pushing them all together as one stack, so that everything is pointed the same way again (this is really inelegant and dumb looking though, so the best solution would be get better sleeves or learn to flutter them with your thumb on the top anyway)
Ending up with cards pointing in two different directions is not only annoying, but is also not a fair shuffle, since you are effectively "marking" your cards. If you for instance knew that one card was in one half of the deck, you now know whether the top of your library is that card or not based on whether it is upside down. BAD / Should get you in trouble in any sort of tournament.
Magic cards are supposed to be able to pass the bend test. If your cards are being damaged by a bridge shuffle, their authenticity is in doubt.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
Also I am very bad at shuffling. Maybe because I'm scared to damage the cards? I don't know. I've always been bad at it, doesn't matter which card game.
Standard
UR Control
Modern
Merfolk
Burn
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I will always firmly stand by the belief that Magic is a game first and a collectable second.
BG The Rock GB
UW Control WU
EDH:
RBU Nekusar UBR
Modern:
UNBDU
I hope you were playing thoughtseize or some other card that let you directly handle his cards for some petty revenge.
Dunno about other people, but I meant to say bridge, as I was referring to shuffling one's own deck, and that's what I would do, because I play with like $1 or less cards usually, not $10 cards.
If I were shuffling an opponent's deck, I would probably just riffle though and then awkwardly push them together, unless I knew they werent' worth much (like pauper format)
If it was a tournament there was a judge, if the judge was present why didn't you call a judge and ask him to shuffle it?
Sam: a demon summoning spell ? why?
Lucifer: to summon a demon (auto censorship here)
====
The Wizard of Oz: A juvenile delinquent runs away from home, kills the first person she meets in a foreign land, robs her corpse, then promptly forms a gang with three complete strangers in order to kill again.
====
with R i'll burn you and with B youll'be maimed
The bend test still does some damage to the card, they are just tough enough that a bend test every now and then does not do any noticable dammage. Constantly bridgeing a deck WILL deal noticable damage the cards over time. And not every older card is in the best condition to begin with due to things like 20 yeard of wear and tear... To the point that real cards will can fail the bend test if they have been tested or bridged too many times.
A deck of new cards can be bridged with little dammage, a deck filled with duals, FoW's and other over-priced cardboard can be noticably damages by bridging, and the rules clearly state that you are NOT to interntionally damage your opponents cards, and bridging your opponents deck DOES cause dammage.
1) They almost never properly randomize there deck (regular shuffle twice, mana weave etc.)
2) Some people get tilted when people shuffle there deck even though its a basic rule of competitive magical cardboard.
I just do the regular sleeve shuffle. Anyone who's played the game for a decent amount of time knows ultra pro's will split like crazy so you should not feel bad if you bust your opponents ultra pro sleeves.
But please, don't riffle your opponents deck. Even if your an expert shuffler never damage cards blah blah etc. people just feel more comfortable if you are gentle to their decks. Riffling your opponents deck is probably one of the fastest ways to make enemies in MTG.
Standard - N/A
Modern - Infect, Scapeshift
Legacy - TES, High Tide
Secondly, Desecration demon should not be a $10 rare. It was a trash rare a couple months prior to rotation then found a deck. After rotation the card will be worth 10 cents again so don't be angry that a card which is not an investment got "played." They are meant to be shuffled and played in a game.
EDH
It was only a trash-rare because of cards like Midnight Haunting and Lingering Souls that would keep it tapped for most of the game. Once those rotated, it became worth playing. And it found several decks, not just 1.
Anyways, I riffle shuffle my opponents' decks all the time. If they complain about it or call a judge over, I ask for proof that I am in fact damaging their cards, and when they mention that I am bending them, I always bring up the bend test, and state that I am not even close to bending them in half, and that the sleeves are in fact undamaged. Remember, the burden of proof is on them.
And CorruptDictator, just because you see them shuffle does not mean their deck has been randomized. If they pile shuffle and then do a few mash shuffles or overhand shuffles, it is in no way randomized. Look for the shuffling primer in one of the other sections for more information.
Currently Running:
Nothing, I have just gotten back after a long hiatus, and am just now starting to rebuild my collection.
These were brand new silver dragon shields that were ripped. Again, this thread is addressing people who don't know how to shuffle. If you are a master shuffler and do no damage, I never had an issue with that. If you are purposely shuffling their deck hard to rip sleeves, that is against the rules as stated earlier in this thread. Also, it's a lame move on your end for trying to damage other people's items.
As far as value, it IS worth $10. I have no interest in the future value or investment of a card in a tcg. I do have interest in current trade value if I get tired of playing a deck. Players worth their salt will know what a crease does to the value of a card.