Don't play with cards that you don't want to risk having damaged. Simple as that.
And now you're the one that's in the wrong and violating tournament policy. You can ask a judge to come over and witness the cut, you can ever stop a player that you feel is handling your deck wrong and call a judge over to assist. The thing you can't do is refuse to allow people to shuffle your deck as the cut if they want .
Actually, you can call a judge over and have them shuffle which is what I was doing and it's part of the rules. And your first point is wrong. It's against the rules for any opponent to put your cards in danger of being damaged. That's part of the shuffle rule as well. Of course there will be wear and tear but if some guy puts his thumbs on the top corner and presses all the way down and creases it because he has no idea how to riffle, that's where it goes too far and that's what happened in my case.
I've been trained as a blackjack dealer and know how to shuffle cards without damaging them. That said, I still wont riffle shuffle an opponents deck because I know it pisses me off when people try to do that with my cards. Fact of the matter is, its unnecessary, there are ways to shuffle cards that will not take chances at causing damage. The 'bend test' is fine for people who know what they're doing and on cards that weren't manufactured 20 years ago. Not as an excuse in a vintage event where people don't know how to shuffle properly and are trying to tilt their opponents by a rough shuffle on expensive cards.
The people out there who are saying they don't care, shuffling is part of the rules, they can do it anyway they want, etc., I sincerely hope that you all play against each other in tournaments so you can bend each other's cards and wreck sleeves all day long. Your callous attitude for other people's property is a major part of why people stop playing paper magic, and should not be tolerated in civilized events.
Good grief - all this vitriol reminds me why I have no desire to get involved at the pro level [not that I ever had a chance in hell of playing at that level] or go to a pro event. If the cutthroat mentality is so destructive at the opening moves of the dance, I can't imagine what the 2nd and 3rd shuffles are going to be like.
Personally, I find that riffling over and over tends to bend cards in one direction, so when I do riffle, I periodically bridge shuffle to offset that. I don't have any scientific basis for this, but I know that cards that are consistently riffled "curve" over time. Bending them in the other direction occasionally seems to help prevent that.
Personally I would never riffle my cards, and I would never let an opponent riffle my cards either. I would drop out of a tournament before I let that happen (though the more realistic thing is I would call a judge and ask him to shuffle in a non-bendy way). Cards are too expensive nowadays. I don't tolerate "minimal" bending. Only "zero" bending is acceptable.
I have been playing MtG for more than ten years, in all manner of REL but I have very, very rarely had problems with an opponent shuffling my deck. The people at higher REL are usually good at shuffling without risk of damage, and the people at lower REL are generally quick to oblige when I ask them to handle my cards with care.
This seems pretty unsportsmanlike. They are well within their rights to tell you to stop and have a judge come over. You are holding their property.
The way people are going on about these cards you'd think people were using the Dead Sea Scrolls as paper napkins for a barbecue.
If it upsets you THAT MUCH to even CONSIDER someone other than yourself touching your cards, why bother? I'm dead serious, why even bother playing with them? Don't play with the cards - just lock them in a vault somewhere, because clearly part of the whole "These are just bits of paper and ink" just went clear over your head.
The way people are going on about these cards you'd think people were using the Dead Sea Scrolls as paper napkins for a barbecue.
If it upsets you THAT MUCH to even CONSIDER someone other than yourself touching your cards, why bother? I'm dead serious, why even bother playing with them? Don't play with the cards - just lock them in a vault somewhere, because clearly part of the whole "These are just bits of paper and ink" just went clear over your head.
Ive got no issues with letting others shuffle, as long as they do it in a way that is respectful to the cards and not trying to ruin them. There are plenty of ways to shuffle without hurting the cards at all. Just dont ruin something that you can't replace
Nice straw man argument there. No one has said they don't want people touching their cards. They just want them to handle their property with care.
Unfortunately, even if you give people the benefit of the doubt in assuming they'll take care of your cards, it seems that even what care they take won't be good enough, and never will be. Something will always be wrong, they won't do it properly, they won't do it the way you expect. And you'll get just as upset by some poor slob trying to do what you ask as someone who won't.
The whole situation would be quite comical if I didn't know you were deadly serious about this topic.
Also, just as a little note - the Dead Sea Scrolls might just be ink and paper but they've got thousands of years of history and importance on Magic. I should think if you turned up at a museum with a Black Lotus and handed it to the curator, he'd look at it and then give it back to you.
I only shuffle when I don't know the person sitting across from me and it's a tourney. Not FNM. On occasion, I've accidentally damaged a sleeve I've bought new sleeves for that person and recommended they resleeve then or after the match.
I haven't had much trouble with this, probably twice now, and I just ask people not to shuffle in a way that bends the cards down the middle or is particularly violent if it looks like they're starting to. Even people who shuffle their own cards particularly roughly seem to be careful with mine. I think some of this has to do with the fact that I am very careful and deliberate with other peoples cards, and of course with my own, while making sure to randomize sufficiently. I think most people notice and appreciate it. If not, a judge can deal with it.
I always give my opponents' decks one to three mash shuffles for "good luck." If it's unsleeved, I'll lightly riffle shuffle it. More shuffles will be required if it appears my opponent did not shuffle enough.
I can only think of one guy who regularly riffle shuffles opponents' decks at my LGS, but he does it lightly so it doesn't bother me. He did damage a Snapcaster Mage of mine at the Innistrad prerelease, but I shouldn't have been playing it unsleeved. I have since learned my lesson and now sleeve all my decks.
I think what you are doing is against the rules... (assuming of course you are playing in a tournament - if you are talking about casual then that's fine)
~ Tim
"more" shuffling is certainly not against the rules at all. by rule at competitive and professional REL, the opponent is required to shuffle the the deck again once presented.
certainly at FNMS and other Regular REL event, the opponent may just cut regularly, but shuffling the deck even further is by no means against the rules.
i believe the bare minimum requirement for riffles when presented to cut/shuffle an opponents deck is 7 riffles for sufficient randomization.
There's no hard and fast number for how much shuffling is needed. It just needs to be to a point where you, your opponent and if relevant, a judge agree its sufficiently randomized.
Actually, research has been done on shuffling. For a 52 card deck, 7 riffle shuffles is needed for a sufficiently randomized deck.
I find it quite funny that people have been complaining about the shuffler for decades before MTGO was ever invented.
When computers were introduced into tournament bridge about 18 years ago, some players were puzzled and others outraged by the random hands the computer dealt and complained that the computers were not working right.
I question the necessity to do anything other than cut. The deck has already been shuffled, you see it done, cutting a deck as a practice exists to make sure someone has not somehow stacked the top of the deck despite the shuffle and is more then enough for me.
That's actually NOT why we shuffle. The deck could be mana-weaved quite easily. People also put good card near the bottom so a simple cut wont do it. It's not a big deal to spend 20 seconds shuffling his deck. I actually LIKE people shuffling my deck as long as they aren't too rough.
Just saying around this area you go breaking someones sleeves there will be an altercation between you and your opponent. You would buy me new sleeves and replace any damaged cards. There is absolutely no reason to shuffle hard enough to split sleeves
False, you should have 5-10 spare for this situation. it's nt my job to keep you in good quality sleeves.
I think what you are doing is against the rules... (assuming of course you are playing in a tournament - if you are talking about casual then that's fine)
~ Tim
Why would this be illegal? Yes, you can call a judge, but you should first make note to your opponent that it's possible his deck isn't sufficiently randomized. If at a lower REL and you don't want to be bothered, than yes shuffle away for as long as needed, until you feel your opponent's deck is sufficiently randomized.
I was under the impression that if you see your opponent break the rules (e.g. present a deck that has not been sufficiently randomised) and you do not report it, then you are breaking the rules too.
EDIT: Looks like I was right:
"3.9 Card Shuffling
Decks must be randomized at the start of every game and whenever an instruction requires it. Randomization is defined as bringing the deck to a state where no player can have any information regarding the order or position of cards in any portion of the deck. Pile shuffling alone is not sufficiently random.
Once the deck is randomized, it must be presented to an opponent. By this action, players state that their decks are legal and randomized. The opponent may then shuffle it additionally. Cards and sleeves must not be in danger of being damaged during this process. If the opponent does not believe the player made a reasonable effort to randomize his or her deck, the opponent must notify a judge. Players may request to have a judge shuffle their cards rather than the opponent; this request will be honored only at a judge’s discretion." http://www.wizards.com/ContentResources/Wizards/WPN/Main/Documents/Magic_The_Gathering_Tournament_Rules_PDF1.pdf
~ Tim
If it's blatant yes. What are we talking about? Pile shuffling with a stack of land and a stack of spells, splits the cards, than presents? Usually it's more like you don't "feel like" they shuffled enough or you aren't completely sure it's random. In that case we shuffle their decks till we feel good about it. Calling a judge would be silly.
I keep 3 or 4 spare sleeves in my deck box, just in case someone damages the sleeves of my deck. Fortunately, I have not yet met someone who shuffles hard... people at our FNM don't want to damage each other's cards. The worst guy I met is someone with greasy hands, my sleeves got clouded a bit from the grease.
Actually, you can call a judge over and have them shuffle which is what I was doing and it's part of the rules. And your first point is wrong. It's against the rules for any opponent to put your cards in danger of being damaged. That's part of the shuffle rule as well. Of course there will be wear and tear but if some guy puts his thumbs on the top corner and presses all the way down and creases it because he has no idea how to riffle, that's where it goes too far and that's what happened in my case.
The people out there who are saying they don't care, shuffling is part of the rules, they can do it anyway they want, etc., I sincerely hope that you all play against each other in tournaments so you can bend each other's cards and wreck sleeves all day long. Your callous attitude for other people's property is a major part of why people stop playing paper magic, and should not be tolerated in civilized events.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1988614295/worlds-finest-mtg-pewter-life-spinner-is-about-to?ref=category
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=16581
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH_UXXKRzlM
I would ask you not to bridge shuffle my legacy decks.
EVOLVE ALL THE THINGS!!!
You aren't allowed to do that.
I've straight up laughed in someone's face when they told me I couldn't shuffle their deck. I did it anyway.
This seems pretty unsportsmanlike. They are well within their rights to tell you to stop and have a judge come over. You are holding their property.
I have been playing MtG for more than ten years, in all manner of REL but I have very, very rarely had problems with an opponent shuffling my deck. The people at higher REL are usually good at shuffling without risk of damage, and the people at lower REL are generally quick to oblige when I ask them to handle my cards with care.
The way people are going on about these cards you'd think people were using the Dead Sea Scrolls as paper napkins for a barbecue.
If it upsets you THAT MUCH to even CONSIDER someone other than yourself touching your cards, why bother? I'm dead serious, why even bother playing with them? Don't play with the cards - just lock them in a vault somewhere, because clearly part of the whole "These are just bits of paper and ink" just went clear over your head.
Ive got no issues with letting others shuffle, as long as they do it in a way that is respectful to the cards and not trying to ruin them. There are plenty of ways to shuffle without hurting the cards at all. Just dont ruin something that you can't replace
Unfortunately, even if you give people the benefit of the doubt in assuming they'll take care of your cards, it seems that even what care they take won't be good enough, and never will be. Something will always be wrong, they won't do it properly, they won't do it the way you expect. And you'll get just as upset by some poor slob trying to do what you ask as someone who won't.
The whole situation would be quite comical if I didn't know you were deadly serious about this topic.
Also, just as a little note - the Dead Sea Scrolls might just be ink and paper but they've got thousands of years of history and importance on Magic. I should think if you turned up at a museum with a Black Lotus and handed it to the curator, he'd look at it and then give it back to you.
I can only think of one guy who regularly riffle shuffles opponents' decks at my LGS, but he does it lightly so it doesn't bother me. He did damage a Snapcaster Mage of mine at the Innistrad prerelease, but I shouldn't have been playing it unsleeved. I have since learned my lesson and now sleeve all my decks.
Sorta like a "my **** don't stink" attitude, even though they shuffle themselves.
"more" shuffling is certainly not against the rules at all. by rule at competitive and professional REL, the opponent is required to shuffle the the deck again once presented.
certainly at FNMS and other Regular REL event, the opponent may just cut regularly, but shuffling the deck even further is by no means against the rules.
i believe the bare minimum requirement for riffles when presented to cut/shuffle an opponents deck is 7 riffles for sufficient randomization.
Actually, research has been done on shuffling. For a 52 card deck, 7 riffle shuffles is needed for a sufficiently randomized deck.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuffling_cards#Randomization
For the actual article linked by Wikipedia: http://www.nytimes.com/1990/01/09/science/in-shuffling-cards-7-is-winning-number.html
I find it quite funny that people have been complaining about the shuffler for decades before MTGO was ever invented.
That's actually NOT why we shuffle. The deck could be mana-weaved quite easily. People also put good card near the bottom so a simple cut wont do it. It's not a big deal to spend 20 seconds shuffling his deck. I actually LIKE people shuffling my deck as long as they aren't too rough.
False, you should have 5-10 spare for this situation. it's nt my job to keep you in good quality sleeves.
Why would this be illegal? Yes, you can call a judge, but you should first make note to your opponent that it's possible his deck isn't sufficiently randomized. If at a lower REL and you don't want to be bothered, than yes shuffle away for as long as needed, until you feel your opponent's deck is sufficiently randomized.
If it's blatant yes. What are we talking about? Pile shuffling with a stack of land and a stack of spells, splits the cards, than presents? Usually it's more like you don't "feel like" they shuffled enough or you aren't completely sure it's random. In that case we shuffle their decks till we feel good about it. Calling a judge would be silly.
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