Thoughtsieze at Common/Uncommon is not correct in any format. The only reason it's being theorized is a desire to drive the price down.
The closest analogue to Thoughtsieze at Common/Uncommon is Distress, and the single black mana difference between these two cards is enough to cover the gap between "One of the best discards spell in constructed" and "Constructed Unplayable". Simply put, 2 life is not enough to compensate for the single black mana difference.
Every other single black mana discard spell does this :
Opponent choses
You choose from a very restrictive subset of card types
You get your choice from a set number of cards in the opponent's hand
Thoughtsieze is the least restrictive 1 mana discard spell in the game for the minor cost of 2 life. No way in any continuity that Thoughtsieze gets printed at anything less than rare.
Thoughtsieze at Common/Uncommon is not correct in any format. The only reason it's being theorized is a desire to drive the price down.
The closest analogue to Thoughtsieze at Common/Uncommon is Distress, and the single black mana difference between these two cards is enough to cover the gap between "One of the best discards spell in constructed" and "Constructed Unplayable". Simply put, 2 life is not enough to compensate for the single black mana difference.
Every other single black mana discard spell does this :
Opponent choses
You choose from a very restrictive subset of card types
You get your choice from a set number of cards in the opponent's hand
Thoughtsieze is the least restrictive 1 mana discard spell in the game for the minor cost of 2 life. No way in any continuity that Thoughtsieze gets printed at anything less than rare.
One can make the same arguement about lightning bolt: the lest restrictive 1 mana burn spell in the game.
If Thoughtseize was an Uncommon card, it would have been printed as such in the first place.
That's why it's called ¢a$h$€iz€, and anyone who thinks what-is-a-Duress-with-downside-against-all-except-one-card-type should eat a rare slot is either a cog in the Wizards machine, a game store proprietor, or a goddamned yes man.
Good luck with WotC printing thoughtseize at anything below rare when it's $50+. They don't want chronicles 2.0/they don't want people raging about investing 200+ per playset of thoughtseize only to have it plummet in value due to it being uncommon.
WotC said somewhere they regretted putting thoughtseize at rare and not uncommon, but it's too late now to fix their mistake.
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That's why it's called ¢a$h$€iz€, and anyone who thinks what-is-a-Duress-with-downside-against-all-except-one-card-type should eat a rare slot is either a cog in the Wizards machine, a game store proprietor, or a goddamned yes man.
Or plays modern and legacy and understands what a powerful card is.
One can make the same arguement about lightning bolt: the lest restrictive 1 mana burn spell in the game.
Lightning Bolt is efficient powerful and awesome, but make a list of the cards that Thoughtseize can beat vs the cards bolt can beat. You're thinking super wishfully if you think it won't be mythic.
I am on board that it's a rare and not a mythic.
If you guys really want to complain about value, notice Ryusei is being put in a mythic slot. That is something worth being annoyed about.
Or plays modern and legacy and understands what a powerful card is.
It's powerful in Constructed, yes, but from a Limited standpoint, it's relatively underwhelming for a rare. The only reason I would be excited to open a Thoughtseize at a MM draft event is because of its value, not because it's a bomb or holds much strategic weight for my deck. From that perspective, it is more in line with an uncommon. An extremely good uncommon, but an uncommon nonetheless.
Thoughtseize below 20$ was fine, but at 50$+ it is an embarassment. It should have been an uncommon all along, but now they're stuck with it. Promoting it to mythic is exacerbating the problem.
Reprint at uncommon, let it tank. It's only one card... You're not destroying the world let alone the game, you barely correct a past mistake.
Or plays modern and legacy and understands what a powerful card is.
Lightning Bolt is efficient powerful and awesome, but make a list of the cards that Thoughtseize can beat vs the cards bolt can beat. You're thinking super wishfully if you think it won't be mythic.
I am on board that it's a rare and not a mythic.
If you guys really want to complain about value, notice Ryusei is being put in a mythic slot. That is something worth being annoyed about.
I'm just saying that a card being very good doesn't automatically require it to be printed at rare.
I wouldn't even be excited to see one in Limited. Only a fool would take it over Doomblade.
It's safe to assume that the original rarity was an oversight. R&D failed to noticed that it was the best discard spell in its class, destined to become a staple. Now they have no choice but to kowtow to the collectors and degenerates who bought pieces of cardboard they can't afford.
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If you don't understand why it's rare you haven't played with it.
I think you'll find that playing with Thoughtseize is a less exclusive club than you believe it to be.
I wouldn't even be excited to see one in Limited. Only a fool would take it over Doomblade.
It's safe to assume that the original rarity was an oversight. R&D failed to noticed that it was the best discard spell in its class, destined to become a staple. Now they have no choice but to kowtow to the collectors and degenerates who bought pieces of cardboard they can't afford.
I think you'll find that playing with Thoughtseize is a less exclusive club than you believe it to be.
So it being the best discard spell ever means it SHOULD NOT be Rare?
I don't think you understand how they determine rarity
Thoughtseize is not a first-pick quality card if your only concern is winning the event. It is good enough to always play if you are in black.
That said I think it's more likely to show up in M14 than in MM anyway (baseless speculation there but it will sell the set and play a role in Standard).
I doubt it would show up in M14 because new players do not like to pay life. That is why the pain lands left. Core sets are not the place to put in that card.
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The problem with defining this format by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
Hymn is also a very old card and not really an appropriate comparison
Discard is a utility mechanic of black. That's why it almost never appears at rare, and why IoK was uncommon. Of the controllable rare discard spells printed, 2 of them were part of a cycle, 3 of them hit multiple cards, one of them was a cranial extraction effect, and one of them was Void,
Oh, and one of them was thoughtseize.
Look, this was decided like 6 years ago when Lorwyn came out. The card shouldn't have been rare. It will almost certainly not be uncommon in Masters or any subsequent reprinting, because wizards knows that people are more likely to quit over lost value than gouging, but the card itself is not defensible at rare.
Rarity is a function of complexity, of impact on limited (both really good and really bad), and 'coolness'/impact. Thoughtseize is just the staple black discard we get in every block, but randomly rare in Lorwyn and now stuck forever at that rarity.
According to the others in my playgroup, "You'll obviously take better picks, but it's more about how many you can get at uncommon. People are missing the point and acting like they're only going to see one copy."
The problem with defining this format by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
According to the others in my playgroup, "You'll obviously take better picks, but it's more about how many you can get at uncommon. People are missing the point and acting like they're only going to see one copy."
Thoughtseize isn't better in multiples. In Limited you'll almost always prefer answers to on-board threats over additional discard after the opening turns. Unless an opponent draws but can't afford to cast something that a removal spell wouldn't satisfactorily answer, like Trostani's Summoner, or you have an opportunity to rip a very slow deck's hand using mass discard, like Mind Sludge, discard is a pitiful topdeck.
For example, your first Thoughtseize nixes your opponent's Sunspire Griffin. By the time you've drawn your second Thoughtseize, they've most likely played out the remains of their hand and you'll be left guessing if they're holding back a land or something worthwhile.
The closest analogue to Thoughtsieze at Common/Uncommon is Distress, and the single black mana difference between these two cards is enough to cover the gap between "One of the best discards spell in constructed" and "Constructed Unplayable". Simply put, 2 life is not enough to compensate for the single black mana difference.
Every other single black mana discard spell does this :
Thoughtsieze is the least restrictive 1 mana discard spell in the game for the minor cost of 2 life. No way in any continuity that Thoughtsieze gets printed at anything less than rare.
One can make the same arguement about lightning bolt: the lest restrictive 1 mana burn spell in the game.
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WotC said somewhere they regretted putting thoughtseize at rare and not uncommon, but it's too late now to fix their mistake.
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I think that is true. Thoughtseize is not the best finger to point.
If you don't understand why it's rare you haven't played with it.
Or plays modern and legacy and understands what a powerful card is.
Lightning Bolt is efficient powerful and awesome, but make a list of the cards that Thoughtseize can beat vs the cards bolt can beat. You're thinking super wishfully if you think it won't be mythic.
I am on board that it's a rare and not a mythic.
If you guys really want to complain about value, notice Ryusei is being put in a mythic slot. That is something worth being annoyed about.
It's powerful in Constructed, yes, but from a Limited standpoint, it's relatively underwhelming for a rare. The only reason I would be excited to open a Thoughtseize at a MM draft event is because of its value, not because it's a bomb or holds much strategic weight for my deck. From that perspective, it is more in line with an uncommon. An extremely good uncommon, but an uncommon nonetheless.
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Reprint at uncommon, let it tank. It's only one card... You're not destroying the world let alone the game, you barely correct a past mistake.
I'm just saying that a card being very good doesn't automatically require it to be printed at rare.
Lightning Bolt was in Alpha
That's considerable precedent as far as changing it's rarity
Thoughtseize was designed in a set at a point in time when limited mattered a whole lot more than it did then
It's safe to assume that the original rarity was an oversight. R&D failed to noticed that it was the best discard spell in its class, destined to become a staple. Now they have no choice but to kowtow to the collectors and degenerates who bought pieces of cardboard they can't afford.
I think you'll find that playing with Thoughtseize is a less exclusive club than you believe it to be.
So it being the best discard spell ever means it SHOULD NOT be Rare?
I don't think you understand how they determine rarity
I doubt it would show up in M14 because new players do not like to pay life. That is why the pain lands left. Core sets are not the place to put in that card.
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Hymn is uncommon bro.
Staple effects are like the anti-definition of rare though.
And would you care to explain these reasons? That's the whole point of the thread, after all.
I forgot about Hymn
Although I'm not sure Hymn is "strictly better"
Hymn gets two cards at random while you chose with Thoughtseize
Hymn is also a very old card and not really an appropriate comparison
Thoughtseize is a simple, efficient utility spell that isn't particularly good in Limited.
Cards like Vindicate and Maelstrom Pulse can only be justified as rare because they're good in Limited.
Common, actually.
Discard is a utility mechanic of black. That's why it almost never appears at rare, and why IoK was uncommon. Of the controllable rare discard spells printed, 2 of them were part of a cycle, 3 of them hit multiple cards, one of them was a cranial extraction effect, and one of them was Void,
Oh, and one of them was thoughtseize.
Look, this was decided like 6 years ago when Lorwyn came out. The card shouldn't have been rare. It will almost certainly not be uncommon in Masters or any subsequent reprinting, because wizards knows that people are more likely to quit over lost value than gouging, but the card itself is not defensible at rare.
"All these other things that are not as good weren't rare so this one shouldn't be" doesn't really work
Hymn is too old to be a fair comparison
it's like distress, but for B and 2 life. so does that mean the mythic one would be B
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Rarity is a function of complexity, of impact on limited (both really good and really bad), and 'coolness'/impact. Thoughtseize is just the staple black discard we get in every block, but randomly rare in Lorwyn and now stuck forever at that rarity.
According to the others in my playgroup, "You'll obviously take better picks, but it's more about how many you can get at uncommon. People are missing the point and acting like they're only going to see one copy."
For example, your first Thoughtseize nixes your opponent's Sunspire Griffin. By the time you've drawn your second Thoughtseize, they've most likely played out the remains of their hand and you'll be left guessing if they're holding back a land or something worthwhile.
Does your playgroup understand that better picks would include just about every good common, such as Bloodhunter Bat, Wojek Halberdiers, Voidwielder?