It also helps people who want to trust a company and not lose their business and jobs for it. But hey, let's let people lose their jobs so you can sit around the kitchen table with duals instead of proxies.
this might be the most loaded statement i have ever seen.
this might be the most loaded statement i have ever seen.
Do peoples jobs depend on the cards holding value? Yes. If your company inested in, let's say, steel, at price A. Let's say $65 per unit (underground sea a dealer buys). They intend to sell those units of steel for $80 per unit, which covers various other bills (wages, utilities, and some profit for the company). Your company has invested in thousands of units of steel. We'll say 10000 units (also allowing for an average of other high end cards, from the low duals to the power). Units of steel are now suddenly $5 each. Your company has now lost $600,000 in product costs alone, before adding in overhead. Most companies such as those that sell magic cards can suddenly take a loss like that. Are you telling me people would not lose their jobs due to lay offs? With standard, the name of the game is to move it quickly, so that is much more liquid. They make their profits there off mass volume sold. With eternal cards, they are not nearly as liquid, so it takes a while to move them. Often a company will buy eternal cards and may sit on them for weeks or months. You call it a loaded statement, but if eternal staples were to suddenly plummet in price, people would lose their jobs. Let's say each major retailer only has to fire 5 people to make up that loss and try to recover (and those would be some pretty heavily paid employees for a card shop, but whatever), how many major retailers are there? How many people no longer have jobs so that those who either can't afford to put aside $20 a week to buy what they want or refuse to budget for them can have the cards they want? Also, if you can't put aside $20 a week, perhaps competitive magic is not for you. Even if you travel to and lodge at a grand prix for free, the entry is $40. And if you're not playing competitive magic, proxies work just as well.
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Odds of pulling a JtMS from a WWK pack: 1:80
Odds of pulling any specific rare in 5th Edition: 1:133
So, on average, 1 JtMS every 2.222 boxes or 1 Bird of Paradise every 3.694 boxes. Yeah, I'll take my odds with Mythics, they are easier to get than old rares.
Want to support a LGS that finally branched into the selling online world? Send me a pm with your email for a $5 off coupon (usable on purchases of $10 or more) for a LGS that just recently got onto TCG player.
it's loaded because you're suggesting that anybody who wants lower prices is also supporting massive layoffs.
who is going to lose their jobs? individuals? you're going to go bankrupt because your old cards are worth less? if a 40 dollar "investment" goes down to 15 dollars and you're in need of economic aid, something was wrong beforehand.
really, tell me who is going to go bankrupt from this. who is going to lose their jobs? nobody, it's completely ridiculous for you to suggest this.
on a different note, somebody's job is almost always in jeopardy. one of the reasons food costs are higher in the U.S. than they should be is because there is a quota on imported sugar. the U.S. government is protecting american sugar growers, several of whom cannot compete with foreign sugar growers. everybody suffers for the inefficiencies of a small group. while it is regrettable, you can't allow the protection of jobs to allow all purchasers of that product to suffer.
jokul, I think you missed the point, and I think a lot of people truly miss the reprint policy point:
If Wizards decided to reprint P9, duals, or other old high-priced cards, they would be jeopardizing the game as it is today. Already, there are very few Brick and Mortar stores outside of large cities (The nearest place where I can buy and play in the same location is nearly an hour away. I live in East Central Indiana), which used to be be the bulk of their sales. Now, a huge majority of their sales come from online retailers. That's right - Starcitygames.com is probably one of Wizards of the Coast's largest buyers of product.
Now, as someone else posted - if the duals were reprinted, their prices would drop drastically, all but overnight. Starcitygames, and many other online stores, would take a HUGE hit. And, some of them would likely go under, because most of them wouldn't be able to take a hit that large. If SCG, Trollandtoad, and the rest go under, a lot of people would be cut off from their source of Magic. If that is the case, they will lose interest in the game...not to mention, the people who work for the second-hand distributors would lose their jobs. I'd imagine that's a thousand or so people suddenly out of work.
Reprinting duals = loss of jobs and loss of revenue = loss of Magic.
(And, I am one of those people that still gets super excited about pulling mythics, even if they are junk, let alone getting a Dual.)
Jedrax, that would make sense IF SCG didn't support abolishing this policy.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
Jedrax, that would make sense IF SCG didn't support abolishing this policy.
Sure. SCG does. But, not all of the secondary market does. SCG could probably afford to take a hit on its duals. But, say they print FTV: P9. Do you think they'd be ok losing a few hundred bucks on each lotus and mox in their inventory?
it's loaded because you're suggesting that anybody who wants lower prices is also supporting massive layoffs.
who is going to lose their jobs? individuals? you're going to go bankrupt because your old cards are worth less? if a 40 dollar "investment" goes down to 15 dollars and you're in need of economic aid, something was wrong beforehand.
really, tell me who is going to go bankrupt from this. who is going to lose their jobs? nobody, it's completely ridiculous for you to suggest this.
on a different note, somebody's job is almost always in jeopardy. one of the reasons food costs are higher in the U.S. than they should be is because there is a quota on imported sugar. the U.S. government is protecting american sugar growers, several of whom cannot compete with foreign sugar growers. everybody suffers for the inefficiencies of a small group. while it is regrettable, you can't allow the protection of jobs to allow all purchasers of that product to suffer.
Me? No, I won't be in economic trouble. I'm sure you're aware that a company such as troll and toad or star city games does not put up their entire stock of an eternal staple. Nobody will lose their jobs? I'm sure if suddenly eternal staples were worthless, people at Troll and Toad, Star City Games, Channel Fireball, etc, would lose their jobs. You're talking about a company that makes investments. Usually eternal staples are more of an investment than standard cards. They are often willing to offer a much higher percentage of the value of the card on eternal staples than standard ones. Those prices usually only go up and not down, therefore, it is a safer investment. In your example, a 40 dollar card goes to 15. Now look at all the eternal staples. If suddenly eternal staples "only" lost 62.5% of their value, that would cause economic hardships on these companies. If you don't believe losing that much money is a big deal, would you mind sending me 62.5% of your net worth? Would that cause an economic hardship on you? Now imagine you have to pay wages out of what is left. Could you afford multiple full time employees if you suddenly lost that much money?
We can argue the ethics of using a card game as your sole source of income and investing in older cards, but many people do it. It's no different than most other business models, you supply something that people have a demand for. If suddenly the supply increases, the value per unit will decrease. If you had to buy those units at a higher price and now you are losing money on a massive amount of product, you most likely will not be in a great financial state. Like many businesses, when you hit economic hardship, one of the first things to be let go of is employees.
So yes, in short, people would lose their jobs if the eternal market was suddenly a worthless market. Would I or you? I know I don't use selling cards as my primary source of income, and based on your replies, I doubt you sell cards for income. Other people do. If whatever business you are in suddenly took a massive financial hit, your job could very well be in danger too. Saying all jobs are always in danger is not a reason to intentionally try to cause that.
Jedrax, that would make sense IF SCG didn't support abolishing this policy.
I honestly get the feeling that their stance on the reprint policy is much like a politician's stance on abortion. It's just PR, they usually don't actually care about it (abortion) or don't expect anything to change with it (reprint policy). Just good PR to take a stance for your constituents or customers that looks favorable to them without expecting anything to be done.
Odds of pulling a JtMS from a WWK pack: 1:80
Odds of pulling any specific rare in 5th Edition: 1:133
So, on average, 1 JtMS every 2.222 boxes or 1 Bird of Paradise every 3.694 boxes. Yeah, I'll take my odds with Mythics, they are easier to get than old rares.
Want to support a LGS that finally branched into the selling online world? Send me a pm with your email for a $5 off coupon (usable on purchases of $10 or more) for a LGS that just recently got onto TCG player.
I wasn't expecting it to change my mind...I just thought it was a littler deeper than being upset over depreciation.
The case for why Wizards wants to stick to their word here is set on, but also deeper than depreciation. If you ever check out articles on their homepage you'll see the importance they place of community development and managing players' experiences to be exciting.
Wizards making the reserved list is a method of telling people their cards are limited, collectable. This is a promise to prevent depreciation by glutting the market, coming from the sole legal producer. So on the surface, yes worries of depreciation run the debate, but below that is an issue of maintaining trust and respect within the client base. Companies that openly lie to clients lose business and/or credibility.
They also consider the importance of exploring the game for new players. Players usually start with a small card pool of recently printed editions, and see more of the game as the play and expand their presence in the community. This is an experience Wizards considers important. As people play they are exposed to more and more of the game's past, and it is marked in personal milestones. The first time you get trounced by a 1 mana 12/12, the first time someone explains that a land can be both a forest and a swamp, the first time you hear rumors about the power 9. Then the first time you see one of these legendary relics. Having every option available in a print to order list takes away these experiences common to all veteran players, and ruins this aspect of community building.
It makes sense for a grocer to have every product possible available and easy to find. Grocers run a business which provides needs. But this is a hobby business based around collectables. Part of the experience is the learning what collectibles are desirable, hunting them, and then feeling satisfaction when you join the part of the community which has completed that goal.
jokul, I think you missed the point, and I think a lot of people truly miss the reprint policy point:
If Wizards decided to reprint P9, duals, or other old high-priced cards, they would be jeopardizing the game as it is today. Already, there are very few Brick and Mortar stores outside of large cities (The nearest place where I can buy and play in the same location is nearly an hour away. I live in East Central Indiana), which used to be be the bulk of their sales. Now, a huge majority of their sales come from online retailers. That's right - Starcitygames.com is probably one of Wizards of the Coast's largest buyers of product.
Now, as someone else posted - if the duals were reprinted, their prices would drop drastically, all but overnight. Starcitygames, and many other online stores, would take a HUGE hit. And, some of them would likely go under, because most of them wouldn't be able to take a hit that large. If SCG, Trollandtoad, and the rest go under, a lot of people would be cut off from their source of Magic. If that is the case, they will lose interest in the game...not to mention, the people who work for the second-hand distributors would lose their jobs. I'd imagine that's a thousand or so people suddenly out of work.
Reprinting duals = loss of jobs and loss of revenue = loss of Magic.
(And, I am one of those people that still gets super excited about pulling mythics, even if they are junk, let alone getting a Dual.)
Actually, truth is, quite the opposite would happen.
As Zendikar showed us, even a 1:216 chance of pulling just one old card was sufficient to sell every box of Zen WOTC printed weeks before it was released. So imagine what would happen to sales if you printed them more commonly. WOTC would need to contract new suppliers to print sufficient quantity to meet demand.
Old cards wouldn't suddenly lose all their value either, they'd lose perhaps a portion of their value related to scarcity in utility cards. But as Beta prices compared to Revised shows us, the collectors items would still retain very significant value.
What would lose value is sealed product from sets like Tempest, Urza's, Revised, who have super-inflated values. For instance, Revised: $25 a pack, with almost all of the value concentrated in duals. To get a dual, you'd have to buy roughly 12 packs at $300, or you can buy one online for $30. The price of the sealed product in those few sets is seriously overinflated, and most assuredly would drop.
But, the store would still come out way ahead, because they couldn't keep the set with the reprints on the shelf for more than minutes.
SCG knows this, that's why they support reprints. Problem is I'm guessing there's some other stores who don't do as well with math and economics concepts.
jokul, I think you missed the point, and I think a lot of people truly miss the reprint policy point:
If Wizards decided to reprint P9, duals, or other old high-priced cards, they would be jeopardizing the game as it is today. Already, there are very few Brick and Mortar stores outside of large cities (The nearest place where I can buy and play in the same location is nearly an hour away. I live in East Central Indiana), which used to be be the bulk of their sales. Now, a huge majority of their sales come from online retailers. That's right - Starcitygames.com is probably one of Wizards of the Coast's largest buyers of product.
Now, as someone else posted - if the duals were reprinted, their prices would drop drastically, all but overnight. Starcitygames, and many other online stores, would take a HUGE hit. And, some of them would likely go under, because most of them wouldn't be able to take a hit that large. If SCG, Trollandtoad, and the rest go under, a lot of people would be cut off from their source of Magic. If that is the case, they will lose interest in the game...not to mention, the people who work for the second-hand distributors would lose their jobs. I'd imagine that's a thousand or so people suddenly out of work.
Reprinting duals = loss of jobs and loss of revenue = loss of Magic.
(And, I am one of those people that still gets super excited about pulling mythics, even if they are junk, let alone getting a Dual.)
if they were reprinted, who do you think would be selling the reprints?
SCG doesn't even have that many reserved-list cards anyways, you're better off searching ebay for those.
I'm not even certain reprinting the Legacy staples would hurt their originals value long term. If you increase the player base enough, the demand for the classic ones could feasibly stay the same.
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That was pretty interesting. But dropping a warship on me is cheating. Take it back!
You can also play legacy decks that don't require duals. And in the case of cars, there are cheaper and more modern cards. It's called standard. Complaining that you can't afford duals is like complaining that you don't have a sports cars. If you budget your money, it will happen.
There are multiple legacy decks that you can buy for sub $100. Raffinity was $60 until the recent mox opal bump in price, the deck is probably pushing $80-$100 now. Let's assume you have a job. 40 hours/week times $5 an hour after taxes on minimum wage. $200 a week. If you put aside $20 a week, you could afford a handful of legacy deck in 5 weeks. More in 10 weeks. Many more in 20 weeks. Most decks in the format in 30 weeks. Yes, that does take away the instant gratification of buying 6 packs with that $20 a week, but in the long run, your cards will hold value.
It also helps people who want to trust a company and not lose their business and jobs for it. But hey, let's let people lose their jobs so you can sit around the kitchen table with duals instead of proxies.
Ravaffinity is pushing $200 right now, with the average being around $700 or so for a solid Legacy deck. Last year that was a third of my wages... so I guess I can budget for 4 months and buy 60 pieces of cardboard? That's doubtful.
The reason I want to play Legacy is because I hate Standard. What's the deal with people saying that invest in Legacy and your cards won't drop etc. Who's making the assumption that I have 4x Jaces? I have no Jaces, no Primevals, or other money mythics. Yes, I am trying to budget my way into Legacy. Two months and I'm almost able to buy one dual but I stop whenever I'm about to pull the trigger. What it comes down to is that it is just a piece of cardboard for $100.
I'm not even certain reprinting the Legacy staples would hurt their originals value long term. If you increase the player base enough, the demand for the classic ones could feasibly stay the same.
That's an interesting notion and could be a possible solution. It would require a large amount of work on Wizard's part but could help with the longterm health of Legacy. Perhaps they could "cap" the value of cards currently and issue small reprint runs whenever the price goes +~15 over the "cap." I'm talking about reprints on the scale of FtV sets.
Two months and I'm almost able to buy one dual but I stop whenever I'm about to pull the trigger. What it comes down to is that it is just a piece of cardboard for $100.
A piece of cardboard with unique art by Rob Alexander. A piece of cardboard that there are fewer than two hundred thousand of IN THE WHOLE FREAKING WORLD.
Is a Babe Ruth rookie card "just a piece of cardboard?"
Do you not have a soul?
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Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not watching.
if they were reprinted, who do you think would be selling the reprints?
SCG doesn't even have that many reserved-list cards anyways, you're better off searching ebay for those.
Honestly, this is what shots a hole in the "it'll hurt the secondary market" argument. How many places out there are selling a steady stream of P9 and duals?
Look at SCG. They have a handful of copies of SOME of the Revised duals, selling around $30-$50 if they do have them. If those got reprinted and the prices all went to $10, SCG loses a 20-40 a card. Maybe a few hundred bucks max. They're not going under for that.
Not to mention, I doubt those full price duals are flying out the door. SCG probably makes more $$ selling Lightning Bolts and Go For The Throat's than dual lands.
The reprint policy has nothing to do with the secondary market. No one in the secondary market is building a thriving business selling dual lands and P9. They make $$ the same way any other store does: selling packs and boxes.
Just let MTG sales to keep declining, and you'll see the reserve list dropped like a bad habit in a few years
Do peoples jobs depend on the cards holding value?
No, people's jobs do not depend on cards from 15 years ago holding value. Looking over your lengthy "argument" riddled with assumptions about how Magic retailers operate, the volume of their eternal collection, the impact of reprints, the change in value compared to the retailer's net revenue-
your grasp of economics appears to be miserable.
Now, as someone else posted - if the duals were reprinted, their prices would drop drastically, all but overnight.
lol. The chicken littles here have absolutely no idea how economics work. Some of you really need the most obvious things pointed out to you- look at Berserk, look at Mox Diamond, look at Aether Vial (the last of which is not on the reserved list). All were reprinted in promo sets. What happened to the price? Maybe you can stop making stuff up now.
Myth:
-reprinted duals, even if carefully managed, must cause the prices to crash
-demand is constant, and the market cannot enlarge and therefore balance out additional supply
-prices will crash and this will jeopardize Magic itself
Hilarious. And considering that prices have more than doubled for many of the Legacy staples in just two years, even if prices crashed from present day levels they would STILL be higher than the "investors" bought their cards for.
If Wizards printed duals or other high value old cards in small, limited quantities (30-40K every few years), not only would prices not crash, they would most likely stay stable as additional people enter the market looking to play Legacy, knowing that more cards are available. Furthermore, this would give Wizards MORE money, not less. The real reason Wizards does not want to do this is not because it would be unprofitable (in the short term). The real reason is that Wizards wants people playing formats where you bust packs. That means Standard and Limited. Wizards wants to keep its premiere cash cows alive and not have a rival format threaten them. This is perfectly understandable on their part, even if I don't give a flying donkey's behind about Standard myself, but it has NOTHING to do with the nonsensical "sky-would-fall" routines going on here.
It's not a coincidence that as Wizard's announced the new reserved list policy, they also announced that Legacy was coming to MTGO where people would have to bust packs of Master's Edition to remake their collections from scratch.
They changed the text on mox opal on ftv. How does that work the new version is nurfed?
Personally I don't think wotc are that concerned with type one cards from the 90s. They are working on new sets not worrying about the secondary card market.
This hobby is where collectors and players meet. Collectors want minty cards in plastic cases with grades while players want decent card values that makes them be unaffraid of playing with cards that only increase in value. Collectors want cards to be rare. Players want playable cards in supply. Why would wotc want to worry about cards that were removed cause of their power. Thy are concerned with new sets marketing and a balanced type 2 and limited formats.
Sorry I'm Typing and deck building at the same time staring at mox opal. So how does oracle text work cause I'm a little confused by the different text. Mox diamond was always the cheapest cause it wasnt a power mox. Pearl was one I bought than jet back in the day. So I don't see the eBay prices of the diamond and pearl emerald being the cheapest for the original five.
I have made this point in other threads about this subject,and will stick to my stance. Any reprint of the Reserved List would only serve to increase interest in an underplayed format, and in all likely-hood increase the value of the reprinted cards over time. The idea that MTG collecting is different from any other collecting is absurd. In other forms of collecting a readily distinguishable copy of a valuable piece almost always increases the value of the original. The next time you see a Franklin Mint commercial for a new minting of a classic coin, go and check the values of that coin in the coming weeks and months. Go to Google and research Mickey Mantle's rookie card, one of the most highly prized cards in baseball card history. Find out how many times it was reprinted, and what happened to the value of the original after being reprinted. Seriously, it's not theory-crafting, it's hard facts here.
The people who fear the reprint of the reserved list are retailers who bought large stockpiles of sealed product in a gambit to increase both the prices of said sealed product, and the singles on the secondary market. There indeed would be a short term drop on the prices of that sealed product, and a retailer who banked on the short supply and fairly even demand for these sealed products stand to lose. Other retailers, with a bigger interest in moving all MTG products stand to rake in huge windfalls from a Premium reprint of Reserved List cards, (ala FTV).
Collectors would likely see a very small decrease for a short period of time, followed by an increase in the value of their investment. Possibly not even that. It's entirely possible that demand could increase for the original cards immediately, and since the supply can only diminish, profits would ensue. I'm not an economist, or a lawyer, or a genius. But I do have some collection experience, and the Internet. With a little motivation, that's all one needs to get the proper information to reach these same conclusions.
Just my two cents though (which I hope retain their value).
Part of the point of two hobbys over the same supply. If you reprint duals or power9 does it effect the rarity of a beta black lotus. No. Does it directly affect the price of a set of revised duals?
Only when you remove players need for the same supply and interject newer playable versions it will effect the supply of the rare versions of the card. Now when players flood the market with their older cards in exchange for the newer cheaper less worry about if I loose or have stolen option you'll see collectors cringe. Will it destroy the market or drag the "value" all the way down. No. But when you release players from having to compete with collectors over the same supply prices will drop. When players flood eBay with their supply to try to recoupe their investments deals will be had. Every item is only as valuable as someone who will pay for it.
I'm a player and not a collector. I owned every power cars but a lotus. I played when type 1 was a viable tournament. I played against others who had power cards and it was FUN. Don't get me wrong if I coul play yellow boardered reprints of beta and unlimited cards and be allowed to use them in tournaments for type 1 only I would buy those packs in a second.
But my other point is why would wotc really care about type 1 and dealing with even the slightest chance of legal activity. I own my business and the last thing you want is to deal with lawyers. Cause even if your right and you win most of the time your paying legal bills any way. So it is still a loose loose problem that a corporationwho cares about the bottom line doesn't want to deal with.
And if sales were so bad why is a type 2 legal set with huge chase cards out of print. Wotc could bring in plenty of money by printing more sealed WW.
In other forms of collecting a readily distinguishable copy of a valuable piece almost always increases the value of the original.
I would only like to point out that the assertion here that the price of the originals would increase or stay constant seems to depend on the degree of substitutability between the originals and the reprints.
I would think that to some degree the original cards should retain their value as far as a collector is concerned, since their rarity remains constant, and they are distinct in that sense from any reprints. Probably similar to the way people collect misprinted cards, or miscut ones, which can fetch a high price - from a collector's point of view I would think a Revised Volcanic Island is a distinct entity from a reprinted Volcanic Island, just like for many collectible items a copy, as mentioned above, is not really a substitute for the original.
I would also think however, that for many people an Ajani vs. Bolas (or whatever ;)) Volcanic Island is just as good as a Revised one, especially if they mean to use it to play (say in a tournament).
I also don't discount the effect that reprinting might have in increasing demand, perhaps due to some marketing effect. I would think the final price of the original duals, however, would depend on the quantity of the increased supply, how much demand might be increased from that marketing effect, as well as the aforementioned degree of substitutability between the reprints and the originals.
In short, who knows ;). You'd probably need some data and to compute some elasticities.
But my other point is why would wotc really care about type 1 and dealing with even the slightest chance of legal activity. I own my business and the last thing you want is to deal with lawyers. Cause even if your right and you win most of the time your paying legal bills any way. So it is still a loose loose problem that a corporationwho cares about the bottom line doesn't want to deal with.
And if sales were so bad why is a type 2 legal set with huge chase cards out of print. Wotc could bring in plenty of money by printing more sealed WW.
I really doubt it'd get to a lawsuit standpoint. WOTC could probably have the whole thing thrown out on the basis that they'd changed the reserved list multiple times in the past, and it established precedent for the future, which the shops accepted. WOTC can get around the whole thing in other ways too, the definition of "Reprint" never actually exists, nor does the definition of "Functionally identical", and WOTC can easily argue that X is only functionally identical when it looks exactly like the original, and that X is only reprinted when it looks exactly like the original. They've left themselves enourmous loopholes for when the day comes that they reprint.
No, it's not at all about lawsuits. What it's about, is the possibility that they'll lose vendors and play areas. A bunch of shops with their panties in a bunch suddenly discontinuing Magic is something that would worry them. They really don't have a surfeit of either anymore.
As far as WW goes, I strongly suspect that WOTC cut the size of print runs, and more tightly scheduled them. There's plenty of evidence that Hasbro came down on WOTC a few years ago. Mtg's sudden changes in set size, Mythics, M10, rules changes all indicate a sudden need to increase product sales. As does the massive change in D&D, and the discontinuation of novel lines and termination of employees related to it, all of which occured within months of each other. So it's reasonable to assume, given the shortages in supply, that they cut print run sizes.
M10's the perfect example. There's nothing about it particularly exciting, not sufficiently to bring players back. No one quit the game for some reason related to 10th edition. Yet M10 was oddly in short supply. The best explanation for this is only a cut in print run size.
Zendikar IMO and the succeeding sets is due to a sudden spike in interest, because they created some new and compelling mechanics rather than rehash old cards as mechanics. Landfall and Leveling were different than the years of rehashing old stuff ad nauseum.
So to answer the question, I think WOTC's cut print run sizes and there's no room in the schedule to print more even if they wanted. I don't think they have the contracts to do it, and I think that there's insufficient time to get new ones before it rotates out.
I would only like to point out that the assertion here that the price of the originals would increase or stay constant seems to depend on the degree of substitutability between the originals and the reprints.
I would think that to some degree the original cards should retain their value as far as a collector is concerned, since their rarity remains constant, and they are distinct in that sense from any reprints. Probably similar to the way people collect misprinted cards, or miscut ones, which can fetch a high price - from a collector's point of view I would think a Revised Volcanic Island is a distinct entity from a reprinted Volcanic Island, just like for many collectible items a copy, as mentioned above, is not really a substitute for the original.
I would also think however, that for many people an Ajani vs. Bolas (or whatever ;)) Volcanic Island is just as good as a Revised one, especially if they mean to use it to play (say in a tournament).
I also don't discount the effect that reprinting might have in increasing demand, perhaps due to some marketing effect. I would think the final price of the original duals, however, would depend on the quantity of the increased supply, how much demand might be increased from that marketing effect, as well as the aforementioned degree of substitutability between the reprints and the originals.
In short, who knows ;). You'd probably need some data and to compute some elasticities.
You have some good points, but I do think that both players and collectors would value the "real" versions of any reprinted cards over the reprints themselves. People spend lots of money to "pimp out" their decks. Regular basic lands are no different than full art lands in game-play. Same with foils, and text-less promos. All of those have much higher collectors value to people who are going to actually play them. The "pimp factor" alone could generate a rise in the demand for original copies of reprinted cards.
this might be the most loaded statement i have ever seen.
Do peoples jobs depend on the cards holding value? Yes. If your company inested in, let's say, steel, at price A. Let's say $65 per unit (underground sea a dealer buys). They intend to sell those units of steel for $80 per unit, which covers various other bills (wages, utilities, and some profit for the company). Your company has invested in thousands of units of steel. We'll say 10000 units (also allowing for an average of other high end cards, from the low duals to the power). Units of steel are now suddenly $5 each. Your company has now lost $600,000 in product costs alone, before adding in overhead. Most companies such as those that sell magic cards can suddenly take a loss like that. Are you telling me people would not lose their jobs due to lay offs? With standard, the name of the game is to move it quickly, so that is much more liquid. They make their profits there off mass volume sold. With eternal cards, they are not nearly as liquid, so it takes a while to move them. Often a company will buy eternal cards and may sit on them for weeks or months. You call it a loaded statement, but if eternal staples were to suddenly plummet in price, people would lose their jobs. Let's say each major retailer only has to fire 5 people to make up that loss and try to recover (and those would be some pretty heavily paid employees for a card shop, but whatever), how many major retailers are there? How many people no longer have jobs so that those who either can't afford to put aside $20 a week to buy what they want or refuse to budget for them can have the cards they want? Also, if you can't put aside $20 a week, perhaps competitive magic is not for you. Even if you travel to and lodge at a grand prix for free, the entry is $40. And if you're not playing competitive magic, proxies work just as well.
Odds of pulling any specific rare in 5th Edition: 1:133
So, on average, 1 JtMS every 2.222 boxes or 1 Bird of Paradise every 3.694 boxes. Yeah, I'll take my odds with Mythics, they are easier to get than old rares.
Want to support a LGS that finally branched into the selling online world? Send me a pm with your email for a $5 off coupon (usable on purchases of $10 or more) for a LGS that just recently got onto TCG player.
who is going to lose their jobs? individuals? you're going to go bankrupt because your old cards are worth less? if a 40 dollar "investment" goes down to 15 dollars and you're in need of economic aid, something was wrong beforehand.
really, tell me who is going to go bankrupt from this. who is going to lose their jobs? nobody, it's completely ridiculous for you to suggest this.
on a different note, somebody's job is almost always in jeopardy. one of the reasons food costs are higher in the U.S. than they should be is because there is a quota on imported sugar. the U.S. government is protecting american sugar growers, several of whom cannot compete with foreign sugar growers. everybody suffers for the inefficiencies of a small group. while it is regrettable, you can't allow the protection of jobs to allow all purchasers of that product to suffer.
If Wizards decided to reprint P9, duals, or other old high-priced cards, they would be jeopardizing the game as it is today. Already, there are very few Brick and Mortar stores outside of large cities (The nearest place where I can buy and play in the same location is nearly an hour away. I live in East Central Indiana), which used to be be the bulk of their sales. Now, a huge majority of their sales come from online retailers. That's right - Starcitygames.com is probably one of Wizards of the Coast's largest buyers of product.
Now, as someone else posted - if the duals were reprinted, their prices would drop drastically, all but overnight. Starcitygames, and many other online stores, would take a HUGE hit. And, some of them would likely go under, because most of them wouldn't be able to take a hit that large. If SCG, Trollandtoad, and the rest go under, a lot of people would be cut off from their source of Magic. If that is the case, they will lose interest in the game...not to mention, the people who work for the second-hand distributors would lose their jobs. I'd imagine that's a thousand or so people suddenly out of work.
Reprinting duals = loss of jobs and loss of revenue = loss of Magic.
(And, I am one of those people that still gets super excited about pulling mythics, even if they are junk, let alone getting a Dual.)
Sure. SCG does. But, not all of the secondary market does. SCG could probably afford to take a hit on its duals. But, say they print FTV: P9. Do you think they'd be ok losing a few hundred bucks on each lotus and mox in their inventory?
Me? No, I won't be in economic trouble. I'm sure you're aware that a company such as troll and toad or star city games does not put up their entire stock of an eternal staple. Nobody will lose their jobs? I'm sure if suddenly eternal staples were worthless, people at Troll and Toad, Star City Games, Channel Fireball, etc, would lose their jobs. You're talking about a company that makes investments. Usually eternal staples are more of an investment than standard cards. They are often willing to offer a much higher percentage of the value of the card on eternal staples than standard ones. Those prices usually only go up and not down, therefore, it is a safer investment. In your example, a 40 dollar card goes to 15. Now look at all the eternal staples. If suddenly eternal staples "only" lost 62.5% of their value, that would cause economic hardships on these companies. If you don't believe losing that much money is a big deal, would you mind sending me 62.5% of your net worth? Would that cause an economic hardship on you? Now imagine you have to pay wages out of what is left. Could you afford multiple full time employees if you suddenly lost that much money?
We can argue the ethics of using a card game as your sole source of income and investing in older cards, but many people do it. It's no different than most other business models, you supply something that people have a demand for. If suddenly the supply increases, the value per unit will decrease. If you had to buy those units at a higher price and now you are losing money on a massive amount of product, you most likely will not be in a great financial state. Like many businesses, when you hit economic hardship, one of the first things to be let go of is employees.
So yes, in short, people would lose their jobs if the eternal market was suddenly a worthless market. Would I or you? I know I don't use selling cards as my primary source of income, and based on your replies, I doubt you sell cards for income. Other people do. If whatever business you are in suddenly took a massive financial hit, your job could very well be in danger too. Saying all jobs are always in danger is not a reason to intentionally try to cause that.
Edit:
I honestly get the feeling that their stance on the reprint policy is much like a politician's stance on abortion. It's just PR, they usually don't actually care about it (abortion) or don't expect anything to change with it (reprint policy). Just good PR to take a stance for your constituents or customers that looks favorable to them without expecting anything to be done.
Odds of pulling any specific rare in 5th Edition: 1:133
So, on average, 1 JtMS every 2.222 boxes or 1 Bird of Paradise every 3.694 boxes. Yeah, I'll take my odds with Mythics, they are easier to get than old rares.
Want to support a LGS that finally branched into the selling online world? Send me a pm with your email for a $5 off coupon (usable on purchases of $10 or more) for a LGS that just recently got onto TCG player.
The case for why Wizards wants to stick to their word here is set on, but also deeper than depreciation. If you ever check out articles on their homepage you'll see the importance they place of community development and managing players' experiences to be exciting.
Wizards making the reserved list is a method of telling people their cards are limited, collectable. This is a promise to prevent depreciation by glutting the market, coming from the sole legal producer. So on the surface, yes worries of depreciation run the debate, but below that is an issue of maintaining trust and respect within the client base. Companies that openly lie to clients lose business and/or credibility.
They also consider the importance of exploring the game for new players. Players usually start with a small card pool of recently printed editions, and see more of the game as the play and expand their presence in the community. This is an experience Wizards considers important. As people play they are exposed to more and more of the game's past, and it is marked in personal milestones. The first time you get trounced by a 1 mana 12/12, the first time someone explains that a land can be both a forest and a swamp, the first time you hear rumors about the power 9. Then the first time you see one of these legendary relics. Having every option available in a print to order list takes away these experiences common to all veteran players, and ruins this aspect of community building.
It makes sense for a grocer to have every product possible available and easy to find. Grocers run a business which provides needs. But this is a hobby business based around collectables. Part of the experience is the learning what collectibles are desirable, hunting them, and then feeling satisfaction when you join the part of the community which has completed that goal.
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Sales Thread
Actually, truth is, quite the opposite would happen.
As Zendikar showed us, even a 1:216 chance of pulling just one old card was sufficient to sell every box of Zen WOTC printed weeks before it was released. So imagine what would happen to sales if you printed them more commonly. WOTC would need to contract new suppliers to print sufficient quantity to meet demand.
Old cards wouldn't suddenly lose all their value either, they'd lose perhaps a portion of their value related to scarcity in utility cards. But as Beta prices compared to Revised shows us, the collectors items would still retain very significant value.
What would lose value is sealed product from sets like Tempest, Urza's, Revised, who have super-inflated values. For instance, Revised: $25 a pack, with almost all of the value concentrated in duals. To get a dual, you'd have to buy roughly 12 packs at $300, or you can buy one online for $30. The price of the sealed product in those few sets is seriously overinflated, and most assuredly would drop.
But, the store would still come out way ahead, because they couldn't keep the set with the reprints on the shelf for more than minutes.
SCG knows this, that's why they support reprints. Problem is I'm guessing there's some other stores who don't do as well with math and economics concepts.
if they were reprinted, who do you think would be selling the reprints?
SCG doesn't even have that many reserved-list cards anyways, you're better off searching ebay for those.
Ravaffinity is pushing $200 right now, with the average being around $700 or so for a solid Legacy deck. Last year that was a third of my wages... so I guess I can budget for 4 months and buy 60 pieces of cardboard? That's doubtful.
The reason I want to play Legacy is because I hate Standard. What's the deal with people saying that invest in Legacy and your cards won't drop etc. Who's making the assumption that I have 4x Jaces? I have no Jaces, no Primevals, or other money mythics. Yes, I am trying to budget my way into Legacy. Two months and I'm almost able to buy one dual but I stop whenever I'm about to pull the trigger. What it comes down to is that it is just a piece of cardboard for $100.
That's an interesting notion and could be a possible solution. It would require a large amount of work on Wizard's part but could help with the longterm health of Legacy. Perhaps they could "cap" the value of cards currently and issue small reprint runs whenever the price goes +~15 over the "cap." I'm talking about reprints on the scale of FtV sets.
:EDH:
WR Gisela, Blade of Goldnight (HOLD/100) WR
WB Teysa, Orzhov Scion (HOLD/100) WB
A piece of cardboard with unique art by Rob Alexander. A piece of cardboard that there are fewer than two hundred thousand of IN THE WHOLE FREAKING WORLD.
Is a Babe Ruth rookie card "just a piece of cardboard?"
Do you not have a soul?
Honestly, this is what shots a hole in the "it'll hurt the secondary market" argument. How many places out there are selling a steady stream of P9 and duals?
Look at SCG. They have a handful of copies of SOME of the Revised duals, selling around $30-$50 if they do have them. If those got reprinted and the prices all went to $10, SCG loses a 20-40 a card. Maybe a few hundred bucks max. They're not going under for that.
Not to mention, I doubt those full price duals are flying out the door. SCG probably makes more $$ selling Lightning Bolts and Go For The Throat's than dual lands.
The reprint policy has nothing to do with the secondary market. No one in the secondary market is building a thriving business selling dual lands and P9. They make $$ the same way any other store does: selling packs and boxes.
Just let MTG sales to keep declining, and you'll see the reserve list dropped like a bad habit in a few years
No, people's jobs do not depend on cards from 15 years ago holding value. Looking over your lengthy "argument" riddled with assumptions about how Magic retailers operate, the volume of their eternal collection, the impact of reprints, the change in value compared to the retailer's net revenue-
your grasp of economics appears to be miserable.
lol. The chicken littles here have absolutely no idea how economics work. Some of you really need the most obvious things pointed out to you- look at Berserk, look at Mox Diamond, look at Aether Vial (the last of which is not on the reserved list). All were reprinted in promo sets. What happened to the price? Maybe you can stop making stuff up now.
Myth:
-reprinted duals, even if carefully managed, must cause the prices to crash
-demand is constant, and the market cannot enlarge and therefore balance out additional supply
-prices will crash and this will jeopardize Magic itself
Hilarious. And considering that prices have more than doubled for many of the Legacy staples in just two years, even if prices crashed from present day levels they would STILL be higher than the "investors" bought their cards for.
If Wizards printed duals or other high value old cards in small, limited quantities (30-40K every few years), not only would prices not crash, they would most likely stay stable as additional people enter the market looking to play Legacy, knowing that more cards are available. Furthermore, this would give Wizards MORE money, not less. The real reason Wizards does not want to do this is not because it would be unprofitable (in the short term). The real reason is that Wizards wants people playing formats where you bust packs. That means Standard and Limited. Wizards wants to keep its premiere cash cows alive and not have a rival format threaten them. This is perfectly understandable on their part, even if I don't give a flying donkey's behind about Standard myself, but it has NOTHING to do with the nonsensical "sky-would-fall" routines going on here.
It's not a coincidence that as Wizard's announced the new reserved list policy, they also announced that Legacy was coming to MTGO where people would have to bust packs of Master's Edition to remake their collections from scratch.
0 Karn
W Darien
U Arcanis
B Geth
R Norin
G Yeva
UW Hanna
RB Olivia
WB Obzedat
UR Melek
BG Glissa
WR Aurelia
GU Kraj
BRU Nicol Bolas
RGB Prossh
BGW Ghave
GUB Mimeoplasm
WUBRG Sliver Overlord
GWU Treva, the Renewer
EDH Spike:
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls
Trades
Personally I don't think wotc are that concerned with type one cards from the 90s. They are working on new sets not worrying about the secondary card market.
This hobby is where collectors and players meet. Collectors want minty cards in plastic cases with grades while players want decent card values that makes them be unaffraid of playing with cards that only increase in value. Collectors want cards to be rare. Players want playable cards in supply. Why would wotc want to worry about cards that were removed cause of their power. Thy are concerned with new sets marketing and a balanced type 2 and limited formats.
Cards have an Oracle text, dude. And it's Mox Diamond not Opal.
0 Karn
W Darien
U Arcanis
B Geth
R Norin
G Yeva
UW Hanna
RB Olivia
WB Obzedat
UR Melek
BG Glissa
WR Aurelia
GU Kraj
BRU Nicol Bolas
RGB Prossh
BGW Ghave
GUB Mimeoplasm
WUBRG Sliver Overlord
GWU Treva, the Renewer
EDH Spike:
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls
Trades
The people who fear the reprint of the reserved list are retailers who bought large stockpiles of sealed product in a gambit to increase both the prices of said sealed product, and the singles on the secondary market. There indeed would be a short term drop on the prices of that sealed product, and a retailer who banked on the short supply and fairly even demand for these sealed products stand to lose. Other retailers, with a bigger interest in moving all MTG products stand to rake in huge windfalls from a Premium reprint of Reserved List cards, (ala FTV).
Collectors would likely see a very small decrease for a short period of time, followed by an increase in the value of their investment. Possibly not even that. It's entirely possible that demand could increase for the original cards immediately, and since the supply can only diminish, profits would ensue. I'm not an economist, or a lawyer, or a genius. But I do have some collection experience, and the Internet. With a little motivation, that's all one needs to get the proper information to reach these same conclusions.
Just my two cents though (which I hope retain their value).
Only when you remove players need for the same supply and interject newer playable versions it will effect the supply of the rare versions of the card. Now when players flood the market with their older cards in exchange for the newer cheaper less worry about if I loose or have stolen option you'll see collectors cringe. Will it destroy the market or drag the "value" all the way down. No. But when you release players from having to compete with collectors over the same supply prices will drop. When players flood eBay with their supply to try to recoupe their investments deals will be had. Every item is only as valuable as someone who will pay for it.
I'm a player and not a collector. I owned every power cars but a lotus. I played when type 1 was a viable tournament. I played against others who had power cards and it was FUN. Don't get me wrong if I coul play yellow boardered reprints of beta and unlimited cards and be allowed to use them in tournaments for type 1 only I would buy those packs in a second.
But my other point is why would wotc really care about type 1 and dealing with even the slightest chance of legal activity. I own my business and the last thing you want is to deal with lawyers. Cause even if your right and you win most of the time your paying legal bills any way. So it is still a loose loose problem that a corporationwho cares about the bottom line doesn't want to deal with.
And if sales were so bad why is a type 2 legal set with huge chase cards out of print. Wotc could bring in plenty of money by printing more sealed WW.
I would only like to point out that the assertion here that the price of the originals would increase or stay constant seems to depend on the degree of substitutability between the originals and the reprints.
I would think that to some degree the original cards should retain their value as far as a collector is concerned, since their rarity remains constant, and they are distinct in that sense from any reprints. Probably similar to the way people collect misprinted cards, or miscut ones, which can fetch a high price - from a collector's point of view I would think a Revised Volcanic Island is a distinct entity from a reprinted Volcanic Island, just like for many collectible items a copy, as mentioned above, is not really a substitute for the original.
I would also think however, that for many people an Ajani vs. Bolas (or whatever ;)) Volcanic Island is just as good as a Revised one, especially if they mean to use it to play (say in a tournament).
I also don't discount the effect that reprinting might have in increasing demand, perhaps due to some marketing effect. I would think the final price of the original duals, however, would depend on the quantity of the increased supply, how much demand might be increased from that marketing effect, as well as the aforementioned degree of substitutability between the reprints and the originals.
In short, who knows ;). You'd probably need some data and to compute some elasticities.
My Cube
I really doubt it'd get to a lawsuit standpoint. WOTC could probably have the whole thing thrown out on the basis that they'd changed the reserved list multiple times in the past, and it established precedent for the future, which the shops accepted. WOTC can get around the whole thing in other ways too, the definition of "Reprint" never actually exists, nor does the definition of "Functionally identical", and WOTC can easily argue that X is only functionally identical when it looks exactly like the original, and that X is only reprinted when it looks exactly like the original. They've left themselves enourmous loopholes for when the day comes that they reprint.
No, it's not at all about lawsuits. What it's about, is the possibility that they'll lose vendors and play areas. A bunch of shops with their panties in a bunch suddenly discontinuing Magic is something that would worry them. They really don't have a surfeit of either anymore.
As far as WW goes, I strongly suspect that WOTC cut the size of print runs, and more tightly scheduled them. There's plenty of evidence that Hasbro came down on WOTC a few years ago. Mtg's sudden changes in set size, Mythics, M10, rules changes all indicate a sudden need to increase product sales. As does the massive change in D&D, and the discontinuation of novel lines and termination of employees related to it, all of which occured within months of each other. So it's reasonable to assume, given the shortages in supply, that they cut print run sizes.
M10's the perfect example. There's nothing about it particularly exciting, not sufficiently to bring players back. No one quit the game for some reason related to 10th edition. Yet M10 was oddly in short supply. The best explanation for this is only a cut in print run size.
Zendikar IMO and the succeeding sets is due to a sudden spike in interest, because they created some new and compelling mechanics rather than rehash old cards as mechanics. Landfall and Leveling were different than the years of rehashing old stuff ad nauseum.
So to answer the question, I think WOTC's cut print run sizes and there's no room in the schedule to print more even if they wanted. I don't think they have the contracts to do it, and I think that there's insufficient time to get new ones before it rotates out.
You have some good points, but I do think that both players and collectors would value the "real" versions of any reprinted cards over the reprints themselves. People spend lots of money to "pimp out" their decks. Regular basic lands are no different than full art lands in game-play. Same with foils, and text-less promos. All of those have much higher collectors value to people who are going to actually play them. The "pimp factor" alone could generate a rise in the demand for original copies of reprinted cards.