Regarding about the issue around the reserved list and the future of the eternal formats facing a lack of duals, here are my 2 cents:
Shrubland
Land - Forest Plains R (: Add or to your mana pool.)
Whenever Shrubland becomes tapped, it deals 1 damage to you unless you pay :1mana:.
Some points about this design:
* It is strictly worst than the original duals.
* It isn't strictly better than the shocklands.
* It isn't striclty better than the painlands.
* It has both basic types in order to still being fetchable.
* They are enough balanced to see standard play without breaking the ground.
* They still being worth enough to be an economic option for those who want to join eternal formats. In late game, I don't see the difference with the oldies, but they still probing to don't be the same in the early game.
* They aren't the same as, lets say, City of Brass, when facing an estrategy like Rishadan Port, Oposition, etc. You can add mana with it to pay for preventing its own punishing side-effect if it's going to be tapped by an effect other than adding mana.
What do you think about the aforementioned problem? What do you think about the possibility of printing a cycle like this I'm showing you?
I'm sure this will be an interesting debate.
This is now the Official Reserved List Discussion Thread. All discussion regarding the reserved list should take place here.
it won't change anything, if these get used they'll get used in conjunction with the originals and you'll still be running a sub-par deck if you don't have the real duals.
it won't change anything, if these get used they'll get used in conjunction with the originals and you'll still be running a sub-par deck if you don't have the real duals.
QFT. The reasoning behind reprinting something like what you suggested isn't really viable. We have the rav shocklands. There is quite a bit of them. Take your shock and be happy.
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"Failing to Find" Since March 2010.
Current Capt. of Team "Ju"
I play this:
Standard:
Rotation is coming...
Modern: GGGSTOMPY
ZOO (Goyf-less)
Legacy:
Brewing
EDH:
Too many to name.
Before this thread gets locked, can we have an official "Reserved List Debate" thread? Like the "Complain about Standard Prices" thread in the Type 2 forums. It's an interesting thing to discuss properly.
Before this thread gets locked, can we have an official "Reserved List Debate" thread? Like the "Complain about Standard Prices" thread in the Type 2 forums. It's an interesting thing to discuss properly.
Often the discussion comes down to two sides. Those that want to see reprints to ease prices/make it easier to enter the format, and those that treat their cards like gold investments and throw a fit anytime someone mentions 'reprints'.
Often the discussion comes down to two sides. Those that want to see reprints to ease prices/make it easier to enter the format, and those that treat their cards like gold investments and throw a fit anytime someone mentions 'reprints'.
I don't disagree, but I honestly think that we could have one that can rebound from that, and that productive discussion on this is productive. Maybe having a header outlining what not to do:
1. Replacement duals
2. Banning all duals
3. Flaming
4. Playsets of duals appearing in future Duel Decks.
I don't disagree, but I honestly think that we could have one that can rebound from that, and that productive discussion on this is productive. Maybe having a header outlining what not to do:
1. Replacement duals
2. Banning all duals
3. Flaming
4. Playsets of duals appearing in future Duel Decks.
If you did that you're left with Reprints vs. No Reprints...which is the root issue of the discussion?
Not really related to the debate, but the land in OP seems worse than brushland to me.
Being able to tap for a colorless seems better than being able to pay 1 to prevent the damage.
They've printed how many cycles like this? and they will continue to print cycles like it.
If they do print dual land alternatives they would have to be as close as possible to the real deal. Perhaps:
BW Dual Land
Land - Swamp Plains
t Add B or W to your mana pool. Exile target card from your graveyard. If there are no cards in your graveyard ignore this ability.
I don't know if I worded it right, but you can still tap for mana if there are no cards in your graveyard.
I'd like to modify that, which, as a legacy player, I'd actually like to see.
BW Dual Land
Land - Swamp Plains
tExile a card from your graveyard: Add B or W to your mana pool.
It would make the exile a cost, which could be played in decks that do not care about their graveyard, and in fact, be anti-goyf for those decks, etc. It would be worse in most cases (if you don't have a card to exile), but could have applications. I'd have no problem with a card like that being printed. Reprinting cards on the reserve list does more harm than good. People no longer trust the company. Most legacy decks aren't overtly expensive, you can build something raffinity cheaply and move up. If you want to play a top tier deck, it's about as expensive as top tier standard decks, but your cards will hold their value.
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Odds of pulling a JtMS from a WWK pack: 1:80
Odds of pulling any specific rare in 5th Edition: 1:133
So, on average, 1 JtMS every 2.222 boxes or 1 Bird of Paradise every 3.694 boxes. Yeah, I'll take my odds with Mythics, they are easier to get than old rares.
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I've always kicked this kind of thing around in my head for a "fixed" dual:
Scrubbing-Land
Legendary Land - Swamp Plains
It being legendary limits how easy it is to use alongside the original duals, while the lack of tacked-on abilities keeps it from feeling clunky.
Often the discussion comes down to two sides. Those that want to see reprints to ease prices/make it easier to enter the format, and those that treat their cards like gold investments and throw a fit anytime someone mentions 'reprints'.
Eh. Personally, my dual count is 16/40 (and I've strongly considered adding some Bayous to the mix), and I wouldn't mind if something like I posted was printed, even if it lowered the cost of my duals and made me (in effect) lose money. I just want to see the format be easier to enter for everyone because around here I've noticed that almost any new entry into the local metagame will be a dual-less tier 2 deck. I'd like to see more people enter the Legacy metagame with decks other than Affinity, Elves, Dredge, and other cheap options. Basically what I'm saying is the self-interest in my case is one layer removed since it's not "I want an easier time entering the format" so much as it is "I want more variety in my opponents."
Eh. Personally, my dual count is 16/40 (and I've strongly considered adding some Bayous to the mix), and I wouldn't mind if something like I posted was printed, even if it lowered the cost of my duals and made me (in effect) lose money. I just want to see the format be easier to enter for everyone because around here I've noticed that almost any new entry into the local metagame will be a dual-less tier 2 deck. I'd like to see more people enter the Legacy metagame with decks other than Affinity, Elves, Dredge, and other cheap options. Basically what I'm saying is the self-interest in my case is one layer removed since it's not "I want an easier time entering the format" so much as it is "I want more variety in my opponents."
I didn't mean to frame it as 'haves' and 'have nots'. I know there are plenty of people who own large number of duals and wanted to see reprints (Menendian and Bleiweiss did go to WotC to talk to them about it).
It's just how the 'debate' breaks down; people who want reprints and people who want to play Magic: The Investment.
I didn't mean to frame it as 'haves' and 'have nots'.
Yes, but at some point it will come down to exactly that and Wizards is going to have to make a decision about if they care about the health of the eternal formats or not.
I know there are plenty of people who own large number of duals and wanted to see reprints (Menendian and Bleiweiss did go to WotC to talk to them about it).
It's just how the 'debate' breaks down; people who want reprints and people who want to play Magic: The Investment.
I myself made the investment to have at least a playset of each dual land and I still really, really want to see them reprinted. If you think about the overall health of the game it just really makes sense.
Does anyone else think that seeing as the fetchlands are about the cycle out (which would probably be the main problem with having basic subtyped duals in standard) and that the hot rumour is a legendary themed set that the time could be ripe for a legendary - dual basic subtype cycle? Sure they might not be that playable in some legacy decks, but quite a few could make do with these lands, I'm particularly thinking zoo could make good use of these with their crazy multicolour fetchable manabases.
Yes, but at some point it will come down to exactly that and Wizards is going to have to make a decision about if they care about the health of the eternal formats or not.
You say that as if they haven't already made that decision.
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You say that as if they haven't already made that decision.
The thing is:
Limited - Wizards makes money from people buying boosters
Standard - Wizards makes money from people buying boosters
Eternal - Wizards makes no money... every penny invested in eternal goes to the secondary market. - yes maybe those cards come from wizards in the past, but they have already made their buck-fifty per dual land rest is just speculators and decay over time.
So there is little incentive for Wotc to focus heavily on Eternal...
Shrubland
Land - Forest Plains R (: Add or to your mana pool.)
Whenever Shrubland becomes tapped, it deals 1 damage to you unless you pay :1mana:.
How about:
Land - Forest Plains R (: Add or to your mana pool.)
Whenever Shrubland becomes tapped for mana, it deals 1 damage to you unless you pay or exile a card from your Graveyard.
Bah, drawbacks. Who needs 'em? If you actually want Legacy to change, you've gotta print some better dual lands!
Shrubland
Land - Forest Plains R (: Add or to your mana pool.)
When Shrubland enters the battlefield you gain 1 life.
Honestly, this is the only way to really make Legacy more accessible than it already is. If you're building on a budget the Ravnica lands already work as cheap replacements. Any other dual with a drawback is going to be the same story.
Limited - Wizards makes money from people buying boosters
Standard - Wizards makes money from people buying boosters
Eternal - Wizards makes no money... every penny invested in eternal goes to the secondary market. - yes maybe those cards come from wizards in the past, but they have already made their buck-fifty per dual land rest is just speculators and decay over time.
So there is little incentive for Wotc to focus heavily on Eternal...
You are overlooking the fact that there is a chance to make a buttload of money by reprinting some of these cards.
@Binary - Having a healthy and playable format across all types is actually really beneficial to them because it means people are still interested and playing their game. Sure they do not make money like the secondary market does but they make money in other ways. And really, people usually do not just play one format and IMO if they abandon one format it shows me that Wizards kind of doesn't care about their product.
What I meant before about "new" duals still stands. It's been long decided that that option was never going to come to light.
I asked to keep this open in order to foster some truly new and innovative ways in which WOTC could please all potential players and perspectives in Legacy. I think we needs to focus on that.
All these lands would do unless they enjoyed multiple print runs was create another set of $30+ lands and people would be left with the same problem - they cannot afford a lot of expensive cards, and could likely also not afford the Force of Wills, Wastelands, and Tarmogoyfs that are also necessary legacy buy ins.
Eternal formats are not beneficial to WotC. Their tournaments and what not are there to hype standard and limited. It's why block constructed is a format, even though it's so incredibly bad. That product has already been sold, and it's time for WotC, a company with a bottom line, to move forward. That's how their game and their company exists - it moves forwards.
The only reason I want to get into Legacy (I play standard, and will continue to do so) is because of the fact that the cards are worth money and continue to go up.
Let's say they reprint the ten duals. This drastically decreases their price immediately.
In another ten years, they'll be expensive again, and people will ***** again.
People will always *****, no matter what they do, so if it's easier than doing nothing, then they'll do nothing.
Besides, the FTV series is a good way to get cards you wouldn't get otherwise. Be happy that there are reprinted cards at all.
Shrubland
Land - Forest Plains R
(: Add or to your mana pool.)
Whenever Shrubland becomes tapped, it deals 1 damage to you unless you pay :1mana:.
Some points about this design:
* It is strictly worst than the original duals.
* It isn't strictly better than the shocklands.
* It isn't striclty better than the painlands.
* It has both basic types in order to still being fetchable.
* They are enough balanced to see standard play without breaking the ground.
* They still being worth enough to be an economic option for those who want to join eternal formats. In late game, I don't see the difference with the oldies, but they still probing to don't be the same in the early game.
* They aren't the same as, lets say, City of Brass, when facing an estrategy like Rishadan Port, Oposition, etc. You can add mana with it to pay for preventing its own punishing side-effect if it's going to be tapped by an effect other than adding mana.
What do you think about the aforementioned problem? What do you think about the possibility of printing a cycle like this I'm showing you?
I'm sure this will be an interesting debate.
This is now the Official Reserved List Discussion Thread. All discussion regarding the reserved list should take place here.
QFT. The reasoning behind reprinting something like what you suggested isn't really viable. We have the rav shocklands. There is quite a bit of them. Take your shock and be happy.
Current Capt. of Team "Ju"
I play this:
Rotation is coming...
Modern: GGGSTOMPY
ZOO (Goyf-less)
Legacy:
Brewing
EDH:
Too many to name.
BW Dual Land
Land - Swamp Plains
t Add B or W to your mana pool. Exile target card from your graveyard. If there are no cards in your graveyard ignore this ability.
I don't know if I worded it right, but you can still tap for mana if there are no cards in your graveyard.
:EDH:
WR Gisela, Blade of Goldnight (HOLD/100) WR
WB Teysa, Orzhov Scion (HOLD/100) WB
When <this> enters the battlefield, opponent gains <1 or 2> life.
Or
When <this> enters the battlefield, opponent gains <1 or 2> life or <this> comes into play tapped.
Shocklands aren't used because in an aggro heavy, and combo to a lesser extent, meta, life is rather important.
Often the discussion comes down to two sides. Those that want to see reprints to ease prices/make it easier to enter the format, and those that treat their cards like gold investments and throw a fit anytime someone mentions 'reprints'.
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
I don't disagree, but I honestly think that we could have one that can rebound from that, and that productive discussion on this is productive. Maybe having a header outlining what not to do:
1. Replacement duals
2. Banning all duals
3. Flaming
4. Playsets of duals appearing in future Duel Decks.
If you did that you're left with Reprints vs. No Reprints...which is the root issue of the discussion?
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
Being able to tap for a colorless seems better than being able to pay 1 to prevent the damage.
They've printed how many cycles like this? and they will continue to print cycles like it.
None of them will replace the duals.
I'd like to modify that, which, as a legacy player, I'd actually like to see.
BW Dual Land
Land - Swamp Plains
tExile a card from your graveyard: Add B or W to your mana pool.
It would make the exile a cost, which could be played in decks that do not care about their graveyard, and in fact, be anti-goyf for those decks, etc. It would be worse in most cases (if you don't have a card to exile), but could have applications. I'd have no problem with a card like that being printed. Reprinting cards on the reserve list does more harm than good. People no longer trust the company. Most legacy decks aren't overtly expensive, you can build something raffinity cheaply and move up. If you want to play a top tier deck, it's about as expensive as top tier standard decks, but your cards will hold their value.
Odds of pulling any specific rare in 5th Edition: 1:133
So, on average, 1 JtMS every 2.222 boxes or 1 Bird of Paradise every 3.694 boxes. Yeah, I'll take my odds with Mythics, they are easier to get than old rares.
Want to support a LGS that finally branched into the selling online world? Send me a pm with your email for a $5 off coupon (usable on purchases of $10 or more) for a LGS that just recently got onto TCG player.
If these aren't strictly better than the shocklands, why not just use the shocklands?
That is to say, what is the point of these lands when viable alternatives do already exist?
Actually, because it has the swamp and plains subtype, it can be tapped for white or black regardless of the contents of the graveyard.
This is scrubland, with an addition line of text that does absolutely nothing.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
Scrubbing-Land
Legendary Land - Swamp Plains
It being legendary limits how easy it is to use alongside the original duals, while the lack of tacked-on abilities keeps it from feeling clunky.
Eh. Personally, my dual count is 16/40 (and I've strongly considered adding some Bayous to the mix), and I wouldn't mind if something like I posted was printed, even if it lowered the cost of my duals and made me (in effect) lose money. I just want to see the format be easier to enter for everyone because around here I've noticed that almost any new entry into the local metagame will be a dual-less tier 2 deck. I'd like to see more people enter the Legacy metagame with decks other than Affinity, Elves, Dredge, and other cheap options. Basically what I'm saying is the self-interest in my case is one layer removed since it's not "I want an easier time entering the format" so much as it is "I want more variety in my opponents."
I didn't mean to frame it as 'haves' and 'have nots'. I know there are plenty of people who own large number of duals and wanted to see reprints (Menendian and Bleiweiss did go to WotC to talk to them about it).
It's just how the 'debate' breaks down; people who want reprints and people who want to play Magic: The Investment.
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
Yes, but at some point it will come down to exactly that and Wizards is going to have to make a decision about if they care about the health of the eternal formats or not.
I myself made the investment to have at least a playset of each dual land and I still really, really want to see them reprinted. If you think about the overall health of the game it just really makes sense.
Avvie courtesy of XenoNinja
You say that as if they haven't already made that decision.
The thing is:
Limited - Wizards makes money from people buying boosters
Standard - Wizards makes money from people buying boosters
Eternal - Wizards makes no money... every penny invested in eternal goes to the secondary market. - yes maybe those cards come from wizards in the past, but they have already made their buck-fifty per dual land rest is just speculators and decay over time.
So there is little incentive for Wotc to focus heavily on Eternal...
How about:
Land - Forest Plains R
(: Add or to your mana pool.)
Whenever Shrubland becomes tapped for mana, it deals 1 damage to you unless you pay or exile a card from your Graveyard.
Shrubland
Land - Forest Plains R
(: Add or to your mana pool.)
When Shrubland enters the battlefield you gain 1 life.
Honestly, this is the only way to really make Legacy more accessible than it already is. If you're building on a budget the Ravnica lands already work as cheap replacements. Any other dual with a drawback is going to be the same story.
Spam Warning.
@Binary - Having a healthy and playable format across all types is actually really beneficial to them because it means people are still interested and playing their game. Sure they do not make money like the secondary market does but they make money in other ways. And really, people usually do not just play one format and IMO if they abandon one format it shows me that Wizards kind of doesn't care about their product.
Avvie courtesy of XenoNinja
I asked to keep this open in order to foster some truly new and innovative ways in which WOTC could please all potential players and perspectives in Legacy. I think we needs to focus on that.
Eternal formats are not beneficial to WotC. Their tournaments and what not are there to hype standard and limited. It's why block constructed is a format, even though it's so incredibly bad. That product has already been sold, and it's time for WotC, a company with a bottom line, to move forward. That's how their game and their company exists - it moves forwards.
Let's say they reprint the ten duals. This drastically decreases their price immediately.
In another ten years, they'll be expensive again, and people will ***** again.
People will always *****, no matter what they do, so if it's easier than doing nothing, then they'll do nothing.
Besides, the FTV series is a good way to get cards you wouldn't get otherwise. Be happy that there are reprinted cards at all.