They're not competitive if your LGS has crappy prize support. My LGS has pretty good prize support at FNM (3 boxes distributed among top 8) so it naturally becomes competitive. If everyone wants to show up with crappy homebrew decks and play casual on Friday at my store, I will gladly take 1st and walk away with over a box of boosters every week.
Prize support has nothing to do with a tournament being competitive or not. My store offers free standard FNM with no prizes other than the FNM promo cards. That's the way we like it, and it's still a highly competitive environment full of grinders playing t1-1.5 decks and good homebrews. Not everyone wants to pay 10-15 or more a week just for a chance to win packs
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Current Decks
Standard BEtched Champion/InfectB WSoilders/knightsW WUVenser SplicerWU RRDWR GFeed the Pack comboG WUPool of ExhaustionWU
EDH GEzuri, Elf OverrunG BGeth, GraverobberB UThada Adel, ThiefU RUrabrask, Big RedR WElesh Norn, CrusadeW WUGAngus Makenzie, Bant ControlWUG
my local FNM has recently done some changes ... first off everyone that pays gets a pack ... (we pay 6$ to play) ... then the payout is based on the total number of points you have for the event ... so if the 'top 4' decide to not play and split then they have about the same amount of points as the ones that were just out of the top ... so the left over packs are split amongst the top 6 instead ...
i do not know the exact math of it ... but basically if you get more then an avg amount of points you are going to have at least 2 packs ... with the top people having more packs of course ...
upside is it attracts more 'new' players that keeps them coming back ...
downside is some of the older 'top' players complain because they do not get as many packs at the end of the night so they don't have as much to turn around and sell off to others to recoup their 6$ they paid... etc etc etc...
i am far from a top player ... have only been in the top 4 2 times this year... but have fallen just out of it numerous times ... but i prefer the method that attracts more new players...
I can't believe some of the misinformed, clueless people in this thread.
FNM not competitive? Last night's winner won a Maze of Ith.
Please don't comment on things when you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
If you're playing for prizes, if you're paying money, it's competitive. Maybe you don't respect FNM because you're an elitist "I only play GPs and PTs" but FNMs, for MANY people, is competitive and they play to win.
I play to win. And I was very happy with the several packs I won last night, thank you.
I lived in a small town and played FNM at a store sounds similar to yours.. we would have between 10 and 30 people any given FNM.
I would always place in the top 2 and a lot of people got mad. I eventually got banned from the store because "I won too much". Now that store is out of business.
If you hate how the prizes are structured then complain to the TOs about it and stop going to that store. There are always other places to play. Ask other people who play at the store to set up a play group and play somewhere else where the prizes are "more fair" or has the kind of play you like.
You can always jump on MTGO and play tournaments anytime day or night. While the competition online is going to be much steeper, you will get better and it will feel satisfying when you win.
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I just want people who redraft to admit this:
"I can't draft objectively unless I am able to guarantee that I receive at least 3 rares. I am also better than most average/new players so I want to make sure that I get the best rares and they end up with worse ones. I care more about the monetary value of cards than actually playing the game for decent prizes."
First of all, where do you play? I know several places in CA (although a huge state) where you can play.
Secondly, I am an old school player who believes that 1st place SHOULD get the Lion's share. When I played in the 90s, 1st place got a BOX of the new set, regardless of the attendance. That was the extent of the prizes. I remember winning 12-16 man FNMs and getting a box. In some ways, I felt badly for the store owner, but I feel like they make up for it in other sales. Nowadays, you can't expect too much in prizes unless you have a big attendance. We have 50-60 people at my current LGS and 1st place gets $70 in store credit, while 2nd gets $50. The prize structure goes to top 8.
One way the owner can get prizes to other people is to give "random" prizes. These are almost never given to the competitive players and could be a PROMO FNM card or a deckbox, or a pack of sleeves. Depending on the Store's profit, they may give out a Koth vs. Venser duel deck. Even these prizes keep people interested.
As for sharking, people really need to know the value of their own cards. In the past, you could take advantage of people in trades. Nowadays, there is no excuse with magictradersonline.com being available to everyone and everyone has a Smart phone (except me). Would you get mad if someone traded their Hyundai Excel for a Honda Accord? If someone is over 18, there's no excuse. Now under 18 is a completely different story and that is really sad. That's my opinion and I know people will disagree with me.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
One more thought on trade-sharking, since it is the only issue in this thread I really have thoughts on.
Sometimes an uneven trade does not equal sharking. People want cards for various reasons. Sometimes I'll trade down, if something is a card I want and don't want to pay cash for, a card I think I might go up in the future, or just to throw someone a bone who did something similar for me. I've people come charging in to let me know I was being ripped off, and I had to tell them to please kindly bugger off.
Some instances with Skaab Ruinator and Bonfire at pre-releases come to mind. (Yes, I understand I am trading Avacyn and Sigarda for two Bonfires, and that bonfires are currently 7.50. No, I don't need you to save me, I am a grown man.)
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Decks:
Modern: Jund
Legacy: Pox
EDH: Chainer Reanimation and The Dragon Show, with Zirilan of the Claw
I can't believe some of the misinformed, clueless people in this thread.
FNM not competitive? Last night's winner won a Maze of Ith.
Please don't comment on things when you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
If you're playing for prizes, if you're paying money, it's competitive. Maybe you don't respect FNM because you're an elitist "I only play GPs and PTs" but FNMs, for MANY people, is competitive and they play to win.
I play to win. And I was very happy with the several packs I won last night, thank you.
Sheeesh.
Did all FNMs have a prize of Maze of Ith last night? Not likely. Most FNMs are run at a regular rules enforcement level not competitive. The prizes are generally less impressive than the major tournaments and generally have a more casual feel to them. Not to say that FNMs are composed of only people playing draft decks they suped up. FNMs are a place for people to learn more about magic and the rules hence the lesser severity of messing up and general lack of decklists. Sure nobody goes to an FNM because they want to lose but not every FNM is set up like the one you go to as the size, prize structure and player makeup can vary greatly.
If I were the topic creator, I would very quickly make the move to across town. Other than the playing an illegal format for FNM there doesn't seem to be anything illegal going on (immoral possibly but that's subjective). The topic creator has an alternative place to go and should make use of it. It wouldn't hurt to talk to the store owner about switching it to the legal format as he may not quite know what's going on (if say someone else was running the tournaments at his store.) This may turn out alright or he may want nothing more to do with you. If he changes the format then you might get animosity from the other players. It all seems like a toxic environment and heading across town (although inconvenient) is worth it if you can find a better place to play.
I'll trade with anyone. And I'll make whatever deal I want. What I don't like is people coaching the other trading party. It isn't my responsibility to make sure people know what values cards are. I make all kinds of trades for a lot of different reasons. I know some people who over value certain types of cards (usually revised dual lands) and I can make some favorable trades for me.
I've even traded when people clearly know the value of both cards involved (I can remember I time I walked into a shop bought a Sword of Feast and Famine, at the time it was 20 dollar rare, then traded it to someone else before I left the store for a Force of Will. He needed the sword more than he needed the Force of Will. I came out ahead monetarily and he came away with a card he could actually use in a deck).
I just don't like when people try to coach other people when they are trading. It is ok to get advice, but the "should I or shouldn't I?" consulting with half the room before the trade is unacceptable to me.
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I just want people who redraft to admit this:
"I can't draft objectively unless I am able to guarantee that I receive at least 3 rares. I am also better than most average/new players so I want to make sure that I get the best rares and they end up with worse ones. I care more about the monetary value of cards than actually playing the game for decent prizes."
I'll trade with anyone. And I'll make whatever deal I want. What I don't like is people coaching the other trading party. It isn't my responsibility to make sure people know what values cards are. I make all kinds of trades for a lot of different reasons. I know some people who over value certain types of cards (usually revised dual lands) and I can make some favorable trades for me.
I've even traded when people clearly know the value of both cards involved (I can remember I time I walked into a shop bought a Sword of Feast and Famine, at the time it was 20 dollar rare, then traded it to someone else before I left the store for a Force of Will. He needed the sword more than he needed the Force of Will. I came out ahead monetarily and he came away with a card he could actually use in a deck).
I just don't like when people try to coach other people when they are trading. It is ok to get advice, but the "should I or shouldn't I?" consulting with half the room before the trade is unacceptable to me.
I agree with you completely, but you have to also understand that many people will be really upset with this (yes, I know, people get upset about anything). The same people are upset that I traded jank for Tarmogoyfs back in the day when it was a $5 rare. That's why I try to not say too much on the subject here.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Even if the FNM were standard, this thread would probably still be here, except complaining about how not everyone can get thragtusks or something. Why should the top players be expected to hold back because you can't beat them? You all paid for your shot at prizes, and if you don't want the same people to win every time, then learn how to beat them. Unless they're cheating in order to win, stop complaining about it and get better. If not being able to afford a decent deck is a problem, then don't play legacy >_<
Did all FNMs have a prize of Maze of Ith last night? Not likely. Most FNMs are run at a regular rules enforcement level not competitive. The prizes are generally less impressive than the major tournaments and generally have a more casual feel to them. Not to say that FNMs are composed of only people playing draft decks they suped up. FNMs are a place for people to learn more about magic and the rules hence the lesser severity of messing up and general lack of decklists. Sure nobody goes to an FNM because they want to lose but not every FNM is set up like the one you go to as the size, prize structure and player makeup can vary greatly.
If I were the topic creator, I would very quickly make the move to across town. Other than the playing an illegal format for FNM there doesn't seem to be anything illegal going on (immoral possibly but that's subjective). The topic creator has an alternative place to go and should make use of it. It wouldn't hurt to talk to the store owner about switching it to the legal format as he may not quite know what's going on (if say someone else was running the tournaments at his store.) This may turn out alright or he may want nothing more to do with you. If he changes the format then you might get animosity from the other players. It all seems like a toxic environment and heading across town (although inconvenient) is worth it if you can find a better place to play.
Of course not every FNM has the same level of competitiveness. But to categorically claim that FNM is not competitive is absurd.
That's almost as stupid as my saying Standard isn't as competitive as Vintage.
I'm a bit confused. Is this store really running an FNM or just magic on a Friday. If they are playing legacy, if can be on Friday, it's just not an FNM.
If they are getting promos and it's being listed as FNM, then there is a problem.
Every store I go to around here have numerous people with expensive standard decks. I imagine it's not like that in all areas of the USA at least, but I imagine it's tough when you feel that people or winning because of owning better cards. But, if that's what it takes to win and you want to win, then you need to find a way into better cards I think. I don't think people should be punished for spending money on the gaming and having a good deck.
Plains - John Avon - 230
Island - Jung Park - 235
Island - Vincent Proce - 237
Swamp - John Avon - 238
Mountain - John Avon - 242
Forest - John Avon - 246
From what I read it just seems that the store is dominated by the same group of veteran players. This happens at all stores. There's always those 4 or 5 guys who know everything about every Magic card and always Top 4 and win all the packs. Just as long as no one is cheating (sneaking in cards, changing the rules, etc...) then they're not really doing anything illegal.
As for sharking newbs, you should advise the newbs when they're being ripped off. I remember when I first started playing Magic when Scars of Mirrodin came out, I bought a random Zendikar booster. In it was a FOIL Marsh Flats. Some guy told me that it wasn't that great because all it did was fetch a basic land. He convinced me to trade it for an Oblivion Ring. Not knowing any better, I traded it. I never saw that guy again, but unfortunately people like that exist and I agree they are the scum of Magic players.
Did all FNMs have a prize of Maze of Ith last night? Not likely. Most FNMs are run at a regular rules enforcement level not competitive. The prizes are generally less impressive than the major tournaments and generally have a more casual feel to them. Not to say that FNMs are composed of only people playing draft decks they suped up. FNMs are a place for people to learn more about magic and the rules hence the lesser severity of messing up and general lack of decklists. Sure nobody goes to an FNM because they want to lose but not every FNM is set up like the one you go to as the size, prize structure and player makeup can vary greatly.
Just because FNM doesn't follow the Comp REL doesn't mean it isn't competitive. This more or less has to do with the mindset of the players and of course, prize support.
Even without the latter, players can still be competitive. This a game after all, where the object is to win.
I think the attitude of players changes very little from Comp REL from Reg REL. The biggest change is of course, the IPG.
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Of course not every FNM has the same level of competitiveness. But to categorically claim that FNM is not competitive is absurd.
That's almost as stupid as my saying Standard isn't as competitive as Vintage.
I was more regarding your statement about the prize of the Maze of Ith. I agree that to categorically claim that FNM is not competitve is absurd. However, I believe that the competitiveness can vary greatly depending on the people that play at an FNM and the prizes offered. I think someone could feel more inclined to play PackRats.dec over Thragtusk/blink.dec if the prize pool warranted it.
The fact that players are able to potentially take back moves and it's a little less grim attitude than a PTQ would make me call it something more of semi-competitive. Sure people are out to win but there are also people just there to play out of left field decks with the possibility of maybe winning something.
Just because FNM doesn't follow the Comp REL doesn't mean it isn't competitive. This more or less has to do with the mindset of the players and of course, prize support.
Even without the latter, players can still be competitive. This a game after all, where the object is to win.
I think the attitude of players changes very little from Comp REL from Reg REL. The biggest change is of course, the IPG.
I agree with your assertions that FNM isn't necessarily casual. However, I think there can definitely be a change in attitudes and behavior. I could see a situation where someone tries to Syncopate a Loxodon Smiter have different results between say a PTQ and an FNM. I could see someone letting their opponent take it back.
I was more regarding your statement about the prize of the Maze of Ith. I agree that to categorically claim that FNM is not competitve is absurd. However, I believe that the competitiveness can vary greatly depending on the people that play at an FNM and the prizes offered. I think someone could feel more inclined to play PackRats.dec over Thragtusk/blink.dec if the prize pool warranted it.
The fact that players are able to potentially take back moves and it's a little less grim attitude than a PTQ would make me call it something more of semi-competitive. Sure people are out to win but there are also people just there to play out of left field decks with the possibility of maybe winning something.
Depends on the FNM. If the comment was "Not all FNMs are competitive" I would have agreed. But the comment was "FNMs are not competitive" meaning all. That statement is not true.
If somebody is going to make a statement, they should be prepared to have it challenged if the statement is false.
I agree with your assertions that FNM isn't necessarily casual. However, I think there can definitely be a change in attitudes and behavior. I could see a situation where someone tries to Syncopate a Loxodon Smiter have different results between say a PTQ and an FNM. I could see someone letting their opponent take it back.
Generally speaking, the player at FNM who let his opponent take back his syncopate isn't a player who attends higher level tournaments (maybe a SCG Open). Though obviously there are exceptions, but I believe they are just that. Exceptions.
Do I think everyone should be less competitive at FNM. Yes. It just doesn't seem to be the norm.
As far as to the OP. Report the store, find a new one.
Tell the newer players to be careful trading and learn the prices of their cards but do not interfere otherwise. It could cause a bad situation.
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My advice:
-Talk to the owner. Tell him that people are cheating and sharking and stuff.
-Talk to the new players. Get enough people to talk the the owner about drafting and better rules enforcement and he'll have to change.
-Report the Legacy FNMs to the DCI. That is not legal and not fair. Legacy cannot be FNM because FNM is supposed to be friendly to new players, which is not the case at all when people win with cards new players have no way to access. Do the right thing and report them so that the LGS will learn from its bad ways.
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Even if the FNM were standard, this thread would probably still be here, except complaining about how not everyone can get thragtusks or something. Why should the top players be expected to hold back because you can't beat them? You all paid for your shot at prizes, and if you don't want the same people to win every time, then learn how to beat them. Unless they're cheating in order to win, stop complaining about it and get better. If not being able to afford a decent deck is a problem, then don't play legacy >_<
The tournament is not a pay-in. There have been times in which they have cheated and I have even caught them while playing against me trying to do things, and hoping that i don't catch that they just discarded an Island for their Force of Will. (This isn't a joke, btw. This literally happened.)
It's irritating because the guy sat there like it was a possible play for him to make. He's definitely one of the more experienced players, and i would expect him to understand how to play his own deck considering he hasn't lost with it in 2 months at the LGS.
I'm a bit confused. Is this store really running an FNM or just magic on a Friday. If they are playing legacy, if can be on Friday, it's just not an FNM.
If they are getting promos and it's being listed as FNM, then there is a problem.
This store is actually running an FNM. Not just Magic on a Friday (which it should be considered, in my own opinion.)
We do in-fact get promos, even though it's been a while since i could even pick one up. Last one i got was when i barely beat out a guy to make top 4 for the Evolving Wilds promo.
And to everyone telling me to go and report them, as much as I feel like I should, I'm not sure if that would benefit me at all. I would most likely be shunned from the LGS, (considering it's been up since early-Magic times) and that might give me a not-so-great reputation. Also, there comes the problem of all the Vintage legal cards that people do own there. I would feel bad making people think that their cards are essentially worth nothing because there is no longer any place to play it.
I feel like once Modern is a sanctioned format officially, I should bring it up and ask for a change. Although it might not help us out that much, it gets rid of all the top guy's main ways of winning the game and may make it easier for new kids (or adults) joining the game to actually stand a chance, and not get pummeled in by some Urza-Tron deck.
And to everyone telling me to go and report them, as much as I feel like I should, I'm not sure if that would benefit me at all. I would most likely be shunned from the LGS, (considering it's been up since early-Magic times) and that might give me a not-so-great reputation. Also, there comes the problem of all the Vintage legal cards that people do own there. I would feel bad making people think that their cards are essentially worth nothing because there is no longer any place to play it.
I feel like once Modern is a sanctioned format officially, I should bring it up and ask for a change. Although it might not help us out that much, it gets rid of all the top guy's main ways of winning the game and may make it easier for new kids (or adults) joining the game to actually stand a chance, and not get pummeled in by some Urza-Tron deck.
Then we can't help you. We've told you your options. If you don't exercise them then continuing this discussion is pointless. They are breaking WotC's rules giving out FNM promos for a non sanctioned FNM format. End of story. If 4 players are playing Legacy decks and everybody else is playing standard decks, they can't win. That's all there is to it. So the same players will win week after week. This is an unhealthy environment, forget how illegal it is.
Anyway, like I said. We've told you what to do. That's all we can do.
This store is actually running an FNM. Not just Magic on a Friday (which it should be considered, in my own opinion.)
We do in-fact get promos, even though it's been a while since i could even pick one up. Last one i got was when i barely beat out a guy to make top 4 for the Evolving Wilds promo.
And to everyone telling me to go and report them, as much as I feel like I should, I'm not sure if that would benefit me at all. I would most likely be shunned from the LGS, (considering it's been up since early-Magic times) and that might give me a not-so-great reputation. Also, there comes the problem of all the Vintage legal cards that people do own there. I would feel bad making people think that their cards are essentially worth nothing because there is no longer any place to play it.
I feel like once Modern is a sanctioned format officially, I should bring it up and ask for a change. Although it might not help us out that much, it gets rid of all the top guy's main ways of winning the game and may make it easier for new kids (or adults) joining the game to actually stand a chance, and not get pummeled in by some Urza-Tron deck.
Switching to modern is great if the people only play modern legal cards. Also, in Modern, Urza-tron is a deck. It's not really legacy level competitive.
Even if they switch to modern, you need to have access to those cards too, which many are cards that are good for legacy as well, and are not cheap.
Plains - John Avon - 230
Island - Jung Park - 235
Island - Vincent Proce - 237
Swamp - John Avon - 238
Mountain - John Avon - 242
Forest - John Avon - 246
Are we sure the store is actually breaking the rules? My LGS has standard FNM and Friday Legacy on....Fridays. They still give out promos for the Legacy, but they are all old ones that the store has bought back. Are we 100% sure that something like that isn't going on?
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it is in the store's best interest to operate within the guidelines. Wizards knows what is successful.
More than likely there are other people with the same feelings as you.
As for the jerks... there's really not much you can do. I've played in NY, VA, PA, CA, and now TX... there are jerks every store.
Even my favorite store in VA, there were a few sharks. My solution, when I don't feel like dealing with this is making a play group with a few friends on facebook.
At William and Mary, the college has a club dedicated to magic. You don't have to be a student to join. They buy cases and draft, FNM, prize support (from the club funds), etc. I know NYU had one too.
If you don't like it, be proactive. I would imagine most colleges have something like this. I'll probably have to check University of Houston for this... since its right next door. Although at the moment I love the two stores I go to.
Then we can't help you. We've told you your options. If you don't exercise them then continuing this discussion is pointless. They are breaking WotC's rules giving out FNM promos for a non sanctioned FNM format. End of story. If 4 players are playing Legacy decks and everybody else is playing standard decks, they can't win. That's all there is to it. So the same players will win week after week. This is an unhealthy environment, forget how illegal it is.
Anyway, like I said. We've told you what to do. That's all we can do.
I think the discussion is helpful for OP. Its easy to talk about, but OP is the one who has to take action. Be pro-active OP. Either way, it sounds like you are not having fun at the lgs.
Prize support has nothing to do with a tournament being competitive or not. My store offers free standard FNM with no prizes other than the FNM promo cards. That's the way we like it, and it's still a highly competitive environment full of grinders playing t1-1.5 decks and good homebrews. Not everyone wants to pay 10-15 or more a week just for a chance to win packs
BEtched Champion/InfectB
WSoilders/knightsW
WUVenser SplicerWU
RRDWR
GFeed the Pack comboG
WUPool of ExhaustionWU
EDH
GEzuri, Elf OverrunG
BGeth, GraverobberB
UThada Adel, ThiefU
RUrabrask, Big RedR
WElesh Norn, CrusadeW
WUGAngus Makenzie, Bant ControlWUG
Extended
WGElvesWG
Legacy
RGoblinsR
UBGFariesUBG
UBGRaffinityUBG
i do not know the exact math of it ... but basically if you get more then an avg amount of points you are going to have at least 2 packs ... with the top people having more packs of course ...
upside is it attracts more 'new' players that keeps them coming back ...
downside is some of the older 'top' players complain because they do not get as many packs at the end of the night so they don't have as much to turn around and sell off to others to recoup their 6$ they paid... etc etc etc...
i am far from a top player ... have only been in the top 4 2 times this year... but have fallen just out of it numerous times ... but i prefer the method that attracts more new players...
FNM not competitive? Last night's winner won a Maze of Ith.
Please don't comment on things when you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
If you're playing for prizes, if you're paying money, it's competitive. Maybe you don't respect FNM because you're an elitist "I only play GPs and PTs" but FNMs, for MANY people, is competitive and they play to win.
I play to win. And I was very happy with the several packs I won last night, thank you.
Sheeesh.
I would always place in the top 2 and a lot of people got mad. I eventually got banned from the store because "I won too much". Now that store is out of business.
If you hate how the prizes are structured then complain to the TOs about it and stop going to that store. There are always other places to play. Ask other people who play at the store to set up a play group and play somewhere else where the prizes are "more fair" or has the kind of play you like.
You can always jump on MTGO and play tournaments anytime day or night. While the competition online is going to be much steeper, you will get better and it will feel satisfying when you win.
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First of all, where do you play? I know several places in CA (although a huge state) where you can play.
Secondly, I am an old school player who believes that 1st place SHOULD get the Lion's share. When I played in the 90s, 1st place got a BOX of the new set, regardless of the attendance. That was the extent of the prizes. I remember winning 12-16 man FNMs and getting a box. In some ways, I felt badly for the store owner, but I feel like they make up for it in other sales. Nowadays, you can't expect too much in prizes unless you have a big attendance. We have 50-60 people at my current LGS and 1st place gets $70 in store credit, while 2nd gets $50. The prize structure goes to top 8.
One way the owner can get prizes to other people is to give "random" prizes. These are almost never given to the competitive players and could be a PROMO FNM card or a deckbox, or a pack of sleeves. Depending on the Store's profit, they may give out a Koth vs. Venser duel deck. Even these prizes keep people interested.
As for sharking, people really need to know the value of their own cards. In the past, you could take advantage of people in trades. Nowadays, there is no excuse with magictradersonline.com being available to everyone and everyone has a Smart phone (except me). Would you get mad if someone traded their Hyundai Excel for a Honda Accord? If someone is over 18, there's no excuse. Now under 18 is a completely different story and that is really sad. That's my opinion and I know people will disagree with me.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Sometimes an uneven trade does not equal sharking. People want cards for various reasons. Sometimes I'll trade down, if something is a card I want and don't want to pay cash for, a card I think I might go up in the future, or just to throw someone a bone who did something similar for me. I've people come charging in to let me know I was being ripped off, and I had to tell them to please kindly bugger off.
Some instances with Skaab Ruinator and Bonfire at pre-releases come to mind. (Yes, I understand I am trading Avacyn and Sigarda for two Bonfires, and that bonfires are currently 7.50. No, I don't need you to save me, I am a grown man.)
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Did all FNMs have a prize of Maze of Ith last night? Not likely. Most FNMs are run at a regular rules enforcement level not competitive. The prizes are generally less impressive than the major tournaments and generally have a more casual feel to them. Not to say that FNMs are composed of only people playing draft decks they suped up. FNMs are a place for people to learn more about magic and the rules hence the lesser severity of messing up and general lack of decklists. Sure nobody goes to an FNM because they want to lose but not every FNM is set up like the one you go to as the size, prize structure and player makeup can vary greatly.
If I were the topic creator, I would very quickly make the move to across town. Other than the playing an illegal format for FNM there doesn't seem to be anything illegal going on (immoral possibly but that's subjective). The topic creator has an alternative place to go and should make use of it. It wouldn't hurt to talk to the store owner about switching it to the legal format as he may not quite know what's going on (if say someone else was running the tournaments at his store.) This may turn out alright or he may want nothing more to do with you. If he changes the format then you might get animosity from the other players. It all seems like a toxic environment and heading across town (although inconvenient) is worth it if you can find a better place to play.
I've even traded when people clearly know the value of both cards involved (I can remember I time I walked into a shop bought a Sword of Feast and Famine, at the time it was 20 dollar rare, then traded it to someone else before I left the store for a Force of Will. He needed the sword more than he needed the Force of Will. I came out ahead monetarily and he came away with a card he could actually use in a deck).
I just don't like when people try to coach other people when they are trading. It is ok to get advice, but the "should I or shouldn't I?" consulting with half the room before the trade is unacceptable to me.
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I agree with you completely, but you have to also understand that many people will be really upset with this (yes, I know, people get upset about anything). The same people are upset that I traded jank for Tarmogoyfs back in the day when it was a $5 rare. That's why I try to not say too much on the subject here.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)http://particularlyawesome.blogspot.com/
Of course not every FNM has the same level of competitiveness. But to categorically claim that FNM is not competitive is absurd.
That's almost as stupid as my saying Standard isn't as competitive as Vintage.
If they are getting promos and it's being listed as FNM, then there is a problem.
Every store I go to around here have numerous people with expensive standard decks. I imagine it's not like that in all areas of the USA at least, but I imagine it's tough when you feel that people or winning because of owning better cards. But, if that's what it takes to win and you want to win, then you need to find a way into better cards I think. I don't think people should be punished for spending money on the gaming and having a good deck.
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As for sharking newbs, you should advise the newbs when they're being ripped off. I remember when I first started playing Magic when Scars of Mirrodin came out, I bought a random Zendikar booster. In it was a FOIL Marsh Flats. Some guy told me that it wasn't that great because all it did was fetch a basic land. He convinced me to trade it for an Oblivion Ring. Not knowing any better, I traded it. I never saw that guy again, but unfortunately people like that exist and I agree they are the scum of Magic players.
Just because FNM doesn't follow the Comp REL doesn't mean it isn't competitive. This more or less has to do with the mindset of the players and of course, prize support.
Even without the latter, players can still be competitive. This a game after all, where the object is to win.
I think the attitude of players changes very little from Comp REL from Reg REL. The biggest change is of course, the IPG.
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I was more regarding your statement about the prize of the Maze of Ith. I agree that to categorically claim that FNM is not competitve is absurd. However, I believe that the competitiveness can vary greatly depending on the people that play at an FNM and the prizes offered. I think someone could feel more inclined to play PackRats.dec over Thragtusk/blink.dec if the prize pool warranted it.
The fact that players are able to potentially take back moves and it's a little less grim attitude than a PTQ would make me call it something more of semi-competitive. Sure people are out to win but there are also people just there to play out of left field decks with the possibility of maybe winning something.
I agree with your assertions that FNM isn't necessarily casual. However, I think there can definitely be a change in attitudes and behavior. I could see a situation where someone tries to Syncopate a Loxodon Smiter have different results between say a PTQ and an FNM. I could see someone letting their opponent take it back.
Depends on the FNM. If the comment was "Not all FNMs are competitive" I would have agreed. But the comment was "FNMs are not competitive" meaning all. That statement is not true.
If somebody is going to make a statement, they should be prepared to have it challenged if the statement is false.
Generally speaking, the player at FNM who let his opponent take back his syncopate isn't a player who attends higher level tournaments (maybe a SCG Open). Though obviously there are exceptions, but I believe they are just that. Exceptions.
Do I think everyone should be less competitive at FNM. Yes. It just doesn't seem to be the norm.
As far as to the OP. Report the store, find a new one.
Tell the newer players to be careful trading and learn the prices of their cards but do not interfere otherwise. It could cause a bad situation.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane for the awesome Sig.
Currently Playing- EDH
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BBBShirei, Lord of PoniesBBB
UWRasputin Dreamweaver, Russia's Greatest Love MachineUW
UBWZur, Killer of FunUBW
UGWTreva, Princess of CanterlotUGW
RWTajic, Master of the Reverse BladeRW
RRRZirilan, How to Train Your DragonRRR
PDH Decks
Gelectrode
Ascended Lawmage
Blaze Commando
-Talk to the owner. Tell him that people are cheating and sharking and stuff.
-Talk to the new players. Get enough people to talk the the owner about drafting and better rules enforcement and he'll have to change.
-Report the Legacy FNMs to the DCI. That is not legal and not fair. Legacy cannot be FNM because FNM is supposed to be friendly to new players, which is not the case at all when people win with cards new players have no way to access. Do the right thing and report them so that the LGS will learn from its bad ways.
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The tournament is not a pay-in. There have been times in which they have cheated and I have even caught them while playing against me trying to do things, and hoping that i don't catch that they just discarded an Island for their Force of Will. (This isn't a joke, btw. This literally happened.)
It's irritating because the guy sat there like it was a possible play for him to make. He's definitely one of the more experienced players, and i would expect him to understand how to play his own deck considering he hasn't lost with it in 2 months at the LGS.
This store is actually running an FNM. Not just Magic on a Friday (which it should be considered, in my own opinion.)
We do in-fact get promos, even though it's been a while since i could even pick one up. Last one i got was when i barely beat out a guy to make top 4 for the Evolving Wilds promo.
And to everyone telling me to go and report them, as much as I feel like I should, I'm not sure if that would benefit me at all. I would most likely be shunned from the LGS, (considering it's been up since early-Magic times) and that might give me a not-so-great reputation. Also, there comes the problem of all the Vintage legal cards that people do own there. I would feel bad making people think that their cards are essentially worth nothing because there is no longer any place to play it.
I feel like once Modern is a sanctioned format officially, I should bring it up and ask for a change. Although it might not help us out that much, it gets rid of all the top guy's main ways of winning the game and may make it easier for new kids (or adults) joining the game to actually stand a chance, and not get pummeled in by some Urza-Tron deck.
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Then we can't help you. We've told you your options. If you don't exercise them then continuing this discussion is pointless. They are breaking WotC's rules giving out FNM promos for a non sanctioned FNM format. End of story. If 4 players are playing Legacy decks and everybody else is playing standard decks, they can't win. That's all there is to it. So the same players will win week after week. This is an unhealthy environment, forget how illegal it is.
Anyway, like I said. We've told you what to do. That's all we can do.
Report them. Move on.
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Switching to modern is great if the people only play modern legal cards. Also, in Modern, Urza-tron is a deck. It's not really legacy level competitive.
Even if they switch to modern, you need to have access to those cards too, which many are cards that are good for legacy as well, and are not cheap.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=4832736
Trading 10 full art zen basics for 8 of yours!
I want
Plains - John Avon - 230
Island - Jung Park - 235
Island - Vincent Proce - 237
Swamp - John Avon - 238
Mountain - John Avon - 242
Forest - John Avon - 246
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More than likely there are other people with the same feelings as you.
As for the jerks... there's really not much you can do. I've played in NY, VA, PA, CA, and now TX... there are jerks every store.
Even my favorite store in VA, there were a few sharks. My solution, when I don't feel like dealing with this is making a play group with a few friends on facebook.
At William and Mary, the college has a club dedicated to magic. You don't have to be a student to join. They buy cases and draft, FNM, prize support (from the club funds), etc. I know NYU had one too.
If you don't like it, be proactive. I would imagine most colleges have something like this. I'll probably have to check University of Houston for this... since its right next door. Although at the moment I love the two stores I go to.
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I think the discussion is helpful for OP. Its easy to talk about, but OP is the one who has to take action. Be pro-active OP. Either way, it sounds like you are not having fun at the lgs.
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