A lot of times, when you offer your deck for your opponent to cut/shuffle, opponents will purposely look AWAY from your deck as they shuffle it. It seems there is an implied reason for that. If you are intently staring at someones deck as you shuffle it, you can see cards in the deck and where they are going to be located once you hand the deck back to them.
So, is there even a real rule to any of this? Also, does it bother YOU if you offer your deck for your opponent to shuffle and they intently stare at your deck as they shuffle it? You could glean a real, non-negligible advantage if you had the intent to purposely see where some of your opponents cards are falling as you shuffle his/her deck OR, if you purposely shuffled certain cards to the bottom of the deck.
I cannot speak for everyone but I'm unable to shuffle without looking at what I'm doing - cards will end up all over the place which would be a lot worse. I do make sure to shuffle face down though and cannot see what any of the cards are.
I have reason to suspect that I've been cheated by a player who was purposely shuffling my good cards to the bottom. There's no official rule regarding where your eyes are "allowed" to be, though if you're shuffling your opponent's deck and you accidentally drop or flip a card over such that you can see its face, you can get penalized for looking at extra cards.
When we're shuffling each other's decks, I will usually look into my opponent's eyes. If they're looking back at me or deliberately looking off to the side, we're fine. If they're staring intently at the deck, that's when I'm on full alert.
I think if this were at a high REL, I MIGHT call a judge, but usually if my deck is good quality it won't matter if some "good" cards are shuffled to the bottom.
Well sometimes knowing what archetype your opponent is playing is a huge advantage and usually people like to try and keep what they're doing secret for a couple of turns
This.
Simply seeing a Glistener Elf or alternately a Niv-magus Elemental in your opponent's library in Modern would mean you would make totally different mulligan decisions - you might mulligan an otherwise good hand without a Path to Exile, for instance, if you know your opponent is playing a creature-based combo deck.
IIRC it's a serious issue to look deliberately at your opponent's cards in deck while you are shuffling or cutting it.
That said, I've never cheated in a game of magic, and I stare at decks while shuffling them. otherwise your cards are going to get bent and mangled and end up all over the floor. so, take your pick.
I'll look at a deck while shuffling, because I'd imagine a deck being mangled or flying off in random directions is going to bring more drama than I'd like to deal with.
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If you're so uncoordinated you can't shuffle a deck without looking at it...
Why don't you go home and practice that for 20 minutes until you have the hang of it?
I repeat, it is not hard to shuffle a deck without looking at it. So stop making excuses.
some people have handicaps or former injuries which make it near impossible for them to quickly shuffle a deck ... one player in my area had her arm broken and it was not set correctly so she has only a little movement in her wrist ... watching her shuffle can be quite amusing ... she has to go slow and concentrate to even try to get it right .. most of the time she calls for a judge and asks for assistance.
If you're so uncoordinated you can't shuffle a deck without looking at it...
Why don't you go home and practice that for 20 minutes until you have the hang of it?
I repeat, it is not hard to shuffle a deck without looking at it. So stop making excuses.
Preach it.
I'm not trying to be condescending or anything. But honestly, I can shuffle a deck with my eyes closed, drunk, upside down, while doing long division in my head and carrying on a conversation. Its quite possibly the easiest thing I've ever done.
Most people look away while they shuffle your deck, or just cut it instead of shuffling. Most people do it on purpose and for a reason. So I can't be completely alone in this thinking. Lord knows judges police every other aspect of magic, there should at least be a stated preference in the judge manual that you shouldn't stare at your opponents deck while shuffling. Again, the information you could gain if you had a bad intent is enormous. And after spotting a card you could easily shuffle it to the bottom. If its a 1-of card, you just altered the game dramatically.
Hmm, not sure if this rule is still in play but I know before you were allowed to shuffle your deck again after your opponent shuffled it then you can just present it to them again.
So if you see them checking out your cards trying to manipulate stuff to the bottom you can smile shuffle it again and then hand it back.
If they want to continue to play this game then call a judge.
For REL competitive events, I believe sneaking a peak at cards unintentionally is getting hidden information, which is a game loss. Of course any intentional cheating by looking at the opponents deck/manipulation is a DQ + potential ban, though this is pretty hard to prove (without them actually manipulating your deck) when you call a judge over.
If you look at your opponents deck while shuffling it it is considered cheating for getting hidden information. Not to mention the opponent, if they know where a card is located in your deck, can abuse that information by stacking your deck. As for people not being able to shuffle a deck without looking at it, how is that? I have zero problems with shuffling at all, it is quite possibly one of the easiest things I have ever done. It isn't particularly challenging unless the opponent has some really bad sleeves, but even then I just adjust my technique to be able to proficiently shuffle the deck. It isn't rocket science.
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there's a guy at my local shop that i know likes to draw from the bottom of his deck so whenever i play against him i make sure he doesn't.
I dont think youre allowed to do that, makes me wonder why some people insist on some strange idiosyncracies? I once played against a guy who, instead of tapping his lands and attacking creatures, put counters on them instead. When I asked them what those are for, he said they were "tap stones". This was a pre-release and he was the nicest guy so I didnt care, but still wonder why people need to do things outside of regulations.
Depending on how ugly my opponent is, you may find me staring at thier deck as I shuffle it.
Actually I ushually just cut thier deck, unless I suspect they are doing something fishy. I will watch them shuffle mine so that cards don't end up "accidentally" on the floor, or in thier pocket.
It seems like most people posting here take this very much more seriously than I, but I play almost exclusively FNM drafts, so yeah.
So, is there even a real rule to any of this? Also, does it bother YOU if you offer your deck for your opponent to shuffle and they intently stare at your deck as they shuffle it? You could glean a real, non-negligible advantage if you had the intent to purposely see where some of your opponents cards are falling as you shuffle his/her deck OR, if you purposely shuffled certain cards to the bottom of the deck.
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When we're shuffling each other's decks, I will usually look into my opponent's eyes. If they're looking back at me or deliberately looking off to the side, we're fine. If they're staring intently at the deck, that's when I'm on full alert.
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This.
Simply seeing a Glistener Elf or alternately a Niv-magus Elemental in your opponent's library in Modern would mean you would make totally different mulligan decisions - you might mulligan an otherwise good hand without a Path to Exile, for instance, if you know your opponent is playing a creature-based combo deck.
IIRC it's a serious issue to look deliberately at your opponent's cards in deck while you are shuffling or cutting it.
That said, I've never cheated in a game of magic, and I stare at decks while shuffling them. otherwise your cards are going to get bent and mangled and end up all over the floor. so, take your pick.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
If you're so uncoordinated you can't shuffle a deck without looking at it...
Why don't you go home and practice that for 20 minutes until you have the hang of it?
I repeat, it is not hard to shuffle a deck without looking at it. So stop making excuses.
some people have handicaps or former injuries which make it near impossible for them to quickly shuffle a deck ... one player in my area had her arm broken and it was not set correctly so she has only a little movement in her wrist ... watching her shuffle can be quite amusing ... she has to go slow and concentrate to even try to get it right .. most of the time she calls for a judge and asks for assistance.
Preach it.
I'm not trying to be condescending or anything. But honestly, I can shuffle a deck with my eyes closed, drunk, upside down, while doing long division in my head and carrying on a conversation. Its quite possibly the easiest thing I've ever done.
Most people look away while they shuffle your deck, or just cut it instead of shuffling. Most people do it on purpose and for a reason. So I can't be completely alone in this thinking. Lord knows judges police every other aspect of magic, there should at least be a stated preference in the judge manual that you shouldn't stare at your opponents deck while shuffling. Again, the information you could gain if you had a bad intent is enormous. And after spotting a card you could easily shuffle it to the bottom. If its a 1-of card, you just altered the game dramatically.
I'll watch my opponent shuffle if I suspected him of stalking before.
So if you see them checking out your cards trying to manipulate stuff to the bottom you can smile shuffle it again and then hand it back.
If they want to continue to play this game then call a judge.
For REL competitive events, I believe sneaking a peak at cards unintentionally is getting hidden information, which is a game loss. Of course any intentional cheating by looking at the opponents deck/manipulation is a DQ + potential ban, though this is pretty hard to prove (without them actually manipulating your deck) when you call a judge over.
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There's a long history of cheaters in high level magic. Most cheaters do it for the rush, not the rewards.
I dont think youre allowed to do that, makes me wonder why some people insist on some strange idiosyncracies? I once played against a guy who, instead of tapping his lands and attacking creatures, put counters on them instead. When I asked them what those are for, he said they were "tap stones". This was a pre-release and he was the nicest guy so I didnt care, but still wonder why people need to do things outside of regulations.
Actually I ushually just cut thier deck, unless I suspect they are doing something fishy. I will watch them shuffle mine so that cards don't end up "accidentally" on the floor, or in thier pocket.
It seems like most people posting here take this very much more seriously than I, but I play almost exclusively FNM drafts, so yeah.